Why Was The Internal Combustion Engine Invented?
So man can enjoy motorbikes…
Steve.
Retired Old ■■■■:
Except if you mix it with air, squeeze it and set fire to it!
Hiya…i used to load from a scrapyard in Leek years ago. on bomb fire night the scrappy would make his fire
from cars and rubbish have a few fireworks and clear out some crap, after one fire his lad was cutting up.
he said to me drag that petrol tank away and throw it over there.this fire had been so hot all the aluminium
from the engines and gearboxes had melted into a glob in the fire. there must have been 25 cars in this stack.
when i said why move the tank his lad said it’ll have petrol in it…i said after that fire■■? he said tip it over,
about 2 pints of liquid run out of the tank, he said stand back, he flashed the torch over the liquid. whosssssssh
off it went. he said it dosen’t burn because theirs no air in the middle of the fire to mix with the vapor. good lesson.
it was nearly 40 years ago
John
Sorry but Diesel has a LOWER flash point than Petrol , the point of diesel engines was to do away with an electric ignition system as well as using less fuel and much cheaper (then)fuel , petrol vapour and air mix would not even burn without a spark and its just a rapid burning of the gas vapour ,not an explosion , a diesel has a higher compression ratio to heat the combustion chamber enough so when the diesel is sprayed in it will ignite, all diesels have stronger parts to take the higher pressure , its not a case of trying to use pistons from the wrong engines , C.I. developement was almost from scratch , did you see the crap terrorists that crashed two cars loaded with petrol into the airport ? they thought they would blow up the whole airport just like the movies ! …NO ONLY A STEADY FIRE come from were they lit the fumes inside the cars …only caused some fire damage next to where the cars hit the building , even though the petrol got hot No explosions , ONLY WAS BURNING THE GAS COMING OFF , rapid expansion of gas moves pistons and blows apart petrol tanks (if there is not much fuel in the tank and the tank is heated enough ) but petrol does not explode , it would not be allowed in cars if it did
Lilladan:
Sorry but Diesel has a LOWER flash point than Petrol , the point of diesel engines was to do away with an electric ignition system as well as using less fuel and much cheaper (then)fuel , petrol vapour and air mix would not even burn without a spark and its just a rapid burning of the gas vapour ,not an explosion , a diesel has a higher compression ratio to heat the combustion chamber enough so when the diesel is sprayed in it will ignite,
The fact is diesel can naturally withstand a lot of compression pressure before it ignites.The difference is that diesel doesn’t detonate,like petrol,under compression ignition it just ignites in a controlled way and relatively slow burns which is what the cetane rating is all about.
While petrol certainly will ‘ignite’ under compression ignition but instead of burning it ‘detonates’ ( explodes ) at much lower compression pressures than diesel will withstand.Octane ratings are all about providing petrol with as much resistance as possible against detonation under compression,at relatively much lower compression pressures than diesel engines.While,as I’ve said,the idea of spark ignition is to manage the timing and location of ignition of the mixture to avoid detonation of the fuel,as opposed to burning/combustion,even at relatively lower spark ignition type compression ratios.If you don’t believe it try running a diesel engine on petrol and see what happens.As for a petrol air mixture not being an explosive then how do you explain what happened at Buncefield.
See what you started, Gingerfold? 
It was entirely predictable once you know who got involved, which I was expecting, by the way. 
Like a bee to the ■■■■■■■■■!
gingerfold:
It was entirely predictable once you know who got involved, which I was expecting, by the way.
No one has attempted to answer the original question. With hindsight, anyone can point to the superior efficiency and lighter weight of an IC engine, compared to a contemporary steam-driven one.
At the time of the actual inventive step, however, the world was happy with its horses and steam. What was going through those inventors’ minds, to make them want to put the fire directly against the piston? Imagine that, given the understandable lack of knowledge of the period- they must have been mad! The soot and smoke would get mixed up with the moving parts and the their lubricating oil, the valves admitting the fuel and air would become clogged with soot. Keeping the dirty fire away from the clean mechanism, using a pot of hot water as a transducer, must surely be the best solution to the problem of turning a shaft by burning stuff.
[zb]
anorak:gingerfold:
It was entirely predictable once you know who got involved, which I was expecting, by the way.No one has attempted to answer the original question. With hindsight, anyone can point to the superior efficiency and lighter weight of an IC engine, compared to a contemporary steam-driven one.
At the time of the actual inventive step, however, the world was happy with its horses and steam. What was going through those inventors’ minds, to make them want to put the fire directly against the piston? Imagine that, given the understandable lack of knowledge of the period- they must have been mad! The soot and smoke would get mixed up with the moving parts and the their lubricating oil, the valves admitting the fuel and air would become clogged with soot. Keeping the dirty fire away from the clean mechanism, using a pot of hot water as a transducer, must surely be the best solution to the problem of turning a shaft by burning stuff.
Which was an argument which continued up to the time of the split which resulted in the the two different marques of ERF and Foden.The fact is the IC engine was never designed or intended to burn coal unlike the steam engine so the drawbacks of soot and smoke didn’t apply,at least to anything like the same degree,together with the obvious advantages which you’ve described which would have been just as obvious from day 1.
Dr Rudolf Diesel used heavy oil as fuel , because petrol has a higher flashpoint and would not readily burn under compression heat only without a spark , let alone explode , no kar boom , a 38 tonne petrol tanker overturned in the center of Sunderland , the trailer wheels skidding set the trailer on fire , petrol leaked out the fully loaded tank but only fumes ignited and burned , fire men stood on the overturned tank and spread foam on to prevent the fumes , the petrol liquid cannot explode ,nor does the gas burn rapid enough to be classed as an explosion , i dont think Buncefeild stored only petrol
Lilladan:
Dr Rudolf Diesel used heavy oil as fuel , because petrol has a higher flashpoint and would not readily burn under compression heat only without a spark , let aloneexplode, no kar boom , a 38 tonne petrol tanker overturned in the center of Sunderland , the trailer wheels skidding set the trailer on fire , petrol leaked out the fully loaded tank but only fumes ignited and burned , fire men stood on the overturned tank and spread foam on to prevent the fumes , the petrol liquid cannot explode ,nor does the gas burn rapid enough to be classed as an explosion , i dont think Buncefeild stored only petrol
- Yes a petrol and air mixture will detonate under compression sufficient to blow a hole through the piston/s even at petrol engine type compression pressures assuming the spark ignition timing isn’t set right which is what the spark plugs are there to control.At diesel type compression pressures forget it the engine is toast if you try to run it on petrol instead of diesel.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane … d_knocking
As for Buncefield which part of tank 912 where the first and biggest ‘explosion’ took place held and was over filled with ‘petrol’ not diesel don’t you understand.
Spark plugs do not control anything , they only spark , you are confusing Compression ignition (diesels ) with spark ignition (petrols) ,also you are confusing the very rapid expansion of gas (fuel/air mixture of 1 to 14)( when petrol ignition takes place) with an explosion , a little over rich mixture and an engine will not run
WHITSUNTIDE:-
Happy Whitsuntide! 
Even in the 19th Century the Petroleum Industry was pretty big going by this Wikipedia article:-
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry
Engineers are always striving to improve things,be it motorcars,radio communications,aeroplanes,engines,whatever.And it has always been the case -just read about the history of the development of any one of the above engineering achievements.And this need for improvement spurred engineers to develop and or invent an engine or engines that were more efficient and more productive than the steam engine.
Readily available fuels inspired engineers,such as M.Alphonse Beau De Rochas,inventor of the four-stroke internal combustion engine,Nikolaus August Otto,who turned this invention in to a practical reality in the form of gas engines operating on the famous Otto Cycle…and Gottlieb Daimler who invented the Petrol Engine after experimenting with several other different fuels. He concluded that Light Petroleum Spirit,ie.Petrol,was the best fuel.
In 1885 Gottlieb Daimler,by the way,invented and built the world’s first internal combustion engined-motorcycle! :The Reitwagen,which was powered by a Daimler petrol engine:-
Daimler Reitwagen (Riding Car) Motorcycle:-
In 1886 Daimler and his business partner,Wilhelm Maybach,bought a four-wheeled stagecoach and converted it in to the world’s first four-wheeled
motorcar - the first motorcar in the world was a three wheeler,which was built by Carl Benz. Daimler and Benz are recognised as the co-inventors of the Motorcar. In 1926 the Daimler company,which made Mercedes motor vehicles,merged with the Benz company to form Daimler-Benz A.G.,which began producing motor vehicles - motorcars,buses,motorcoaches and lorries - under the Mercedes-Benz marque name.
And Mercedes-Benz is still flourishing
Both Kerosene and Paraffin Engines have been built over the years,but these fuels are not as efficient as petrol.
Then in 1897 along came the Diesel Engine,invented by Rudolph Diesel,but it should not be forgotten that British engineer,Herbert Ackroyd Stuart,
invented the Hot Bulb Oil Engine in the years 1886-1890.
So with the introduction of gas,petrol,diesel,kerosene,paraffin internal combustion engines,the far less efficient and practical reciprocating steam engine in all of it’s applications -road,rail,marine,industrial,etc - was doomed.From Wikipedia and two of my engine books on the thermal efficiency
of the following engines:-
Steam Engine,naturally aspirated :6 to 10 per cent.
Steam Engine,superheated,etc:15 to 23 per cent.
Modern Petrol Engine:25 to 30 per cent. WHAT? 
! -is it really that low? ! According to Wikipedia it is
Diesel-Oil Engines of 1945:34 per cent.
Modern Diesel-Oil Engine:40 to 50 per cent.
But just get a load of this! :-
Kitson-Still 2-6-2T Hybrid STEAM DIESEL Railway Locomotive,Engine No.5374,of 1924. YES! 
You read it right:This railway locomotive had an 8-cylinder steam diesel engine,and I’ll let these two websites give you a full explanation:-
douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCO … tsonst.htm
lner.info/locos/IC/kitson.shtml
In regard to the explosive properties or otherwise of both petrol and diesel engines,I have witnessed mechanics refuelling diesel-engined buses, motorcoaches and lorries while they have been smoking cigarettes.While on the other hand,a friend of mine (he’s always been a pillock,and is now a ex-friend - but not because of the following incident) without my knowledge put some petrol on some garden rubbish that I was about to burn.
As I remember,I thought it was paraffin or something.My friend told me just to throw a lighted match on the rubbish. I did. Then BOOM!!!
THERE WAS AN ALMIGHTY EXPLOSION! All I saw was a blinding flash of near white light,then I turned away from the rubbish and ran like hell
towards my friend,exclaiming "Ooooooooh! as I did so! My friend was standing next to the corner of the house safe from the explosion.
The explosion only lasted about a second,but I was apparently almost completely enveloped in flames! My hair was singed and my face had a sudden “sun tan” and developed symptons of being out in the sun too much over the next few days - I looked as though I had just recently shot The Red Baron down! The loudness of the explosion brought out nearly all of the local neighbourhood.Actually,it didn’t sound that loud to me -
I was at the epicentre of the explosion that’s why
Later that night,I switched on my television and watched one of my favourite Hollywood comedy films - I kid you not - it was the classic Billy Wilder,Tony Curtis,Jack Lemmon,Marilyn Monroe film,SOME LIKE IT HOT… Talk about Synchronicity
VALKYRIE
Lilladan:
Spark plugs do not control anything , they only spark , you are confusing Compression ignition (diesels ) with spark ignition (petrols) ,also you are confusing the very rapid expansion of gas (fuel/air mixture of 1 to 14)( when petrol ignition takes place) with an explosion , a little over rich mixture and an engine will not run
The plugs spark at the right time and at the right place to control the ‘ignition’ of the petrol air mixture in the cylinders.As opposed to the ‘detonation’ ( explosion ) of the mixture under compression if the plugs spark at the wrong time or if they were positioned in the wrong place.As I said the difference is between the rapid flame and expansion which you’ve described of a correctly spark ignited mixture as opposed to the type of detonation/explosion under compression which I’ve described and the difference between a correctly running engine as opposed to one with holes blown through any or all of it’s pistons. 
As for a rich mixture an engine will run fine on a rich mixture with the added benefit that a rich mixture will raise the tolerance of the mixture to detonation to a similar level as increasing the octane rating.Possibly up to the point where the mixture is so rich that it fouls up the plugs in which case the engine will probably misfire and stall before the fuel detonates under compression ignition.Although rich mixtures also have the drawback of washing the oil off the bores and diluting the oil in the sump thereby wrecking the engine’s bearings.Most of this is well known aero engine management before the availability of very high octane fuel.
The fact is it’s you who’s confusing the fact that where diesel ignites and burns under compression ignition petrol just detonates/explodes at lower compression pressures than diesel ignites and burns.The same applies in situations like the Buncefield example IE an overflowing diesel tank probably wouldn’t have ignited with an explosion measuring 2.4 on the Richter scale in Hertfordshire which shook and rattled the windows of houses here in Surrey. 
I have a 1967 Volvo petrol , the spark pugs spark when currant passes down the kable kontrolled by the distributor from thr kamshaft , if you would overrich the mixture by leaving out the choke kontrol knob after a few miles the engine would stopp as too much petrol for the plugs to ignite , i had a work mate that put a glaze buster bore machine into some petrol that he thought was the usual parrafin and he gave the drill a flick , so the petrol fumes ignited and removed his eyebrows ! A RAPID burning is all , yes of course they said explosion happen , lets all get excited bla bla , the petrol liquid remained in the drum only was fumes gone upp and my fellow mechanic grew back his eyebrows ,
After reading this page, makes me glad that it was invented in the first place, because had it not been for Benz I wouldn’t have got my Yamaha TZ to go fast enough to break the world land speed record in 1990, and wouldn’t have been able to get my Suzuki Hyabusa to go over 200 mph a few years latter, that’s all in between driving all over Europe for 25 years for A One Transport. A very interesting page to read, thank’s guy’s. Jack 
It’s got nothing to do with being more efficient we would be still using the horses but for the fact that after suffering hardship for years ie. two Londons from Glasgow a fortnight and being well over their weight they decided to get their noses together. The outcome was threatened LIE DOWN PROTESTS to block roads. The result was that the cairters had to shell out for one of those new fangled motor thingys and the rates have been slashed ever since. Eddie.