Victims of think accounting

[robbo99]

Franglais:

robbo99.:

Franglais:
HMRC are there to collect tax. They are not there to positively vet all companies and schemes even before they start trading. Maybe there is a need for better standards and bigger penalties for directors of dodgy accounting firms etc, Id agree with that, but for all that it aint HMRC`s fault.

HMRC are there to collect taxes and yes they are not there to vet every company. We are not talking about all of the Ltd cos Drivers companies here we are talking about Think Accounting.
HMRC have departments such as Specialist Investigations and Counter Avoidance amongst others to investigate company practices.

They were investigating Think back as far as Sept 2011, they knew how they operated and knew they were breaching the legislation. Anybody that used the services of Think from that point on were liable to a NI/tax bill, not straight away, some years down the line. Think were breaching the rules and in doing so HMRC landed Drivers with hefty bills.

Are you then saying, that as soon as HMRC start an investigation the company being investigated should be prevented from trading? If they were found to be doing nowt wrong, how would that work out? That HMRC were mounting an investigation doesnt mean they knew all the insnouts straightaway. I can see you may have a genuine grievance against Think, but surely HMRC arent up for much blame in this matter.

HMRC maintain in writing that the legislation is very straight forward.

There are 5 breaches in which Think could fall foul of the legislation. Crucially only ONE of the 5 has to be met for the legislation to kick in and rope the Drivers company in. HMRC knew of one breach back in Sept 2011 after interviewing the Directors of Think, they met further times in 2012 and uncovered more breaches. Remember only ONE breach had to be met. Just a simple thing like only charging a fee when the the Driver worked and not charging when he did not work is a breach.

So in a normal world, not HMRCs world, they had every opportunity to strike in 2012. Strangely enough, the Drivers were consulted lastly, in the case I know of,the Driver was interviewed in late 2014 and it was another year after that that they issued the Driver with a bill. The point I am making is the longer it went on for, the bigger the bills HMRC issued, whilst doing nothing with the sharks of Think Accounting.

[franglais]

robbo99.:

Franglais:

robbo99.:

Franglais:
HMRC are there to collect tax. They are not there to positively vet all companies and schemes even before they start trading. Maybe there is a need for better standards and bigger penalties for directors of dodgy accounting firms etc, Id agree with that, but for all that it aint HMRC`s fault.

HMRC are there to collect taxes and yes they are not there to vet every company. We are not talking about all of the Ltd cos Drivers companies here we are talking about Think Accounting.
HMRC have departments such as Specialist Investigations and Counter Avoidance amongst others to investigate company practices.

They were investigating Think back as far as Sept 2011, they knew how they operated and knew they were breaching the legislation. Anybody that used the services of Think from that point on were liable to a NI/tax bill, not straight away, some years down the line. Think were breaching the rules and in doing so HMRC landed Drivers with hefty bills.

Are you then saying, that as soon as HMRC start an investigation the company being investigated should be prevented from trading? If they were found to be doing nowt wrong, how would that work out? That HMRC were mounting an investigation doesnt mean they knew all the insnouts straightaway. I can see you may have a genuine grievance against Think, but surely HMRC arent up for much blame in this matter.

HMRC maintain in writing that the legislation is very straight forward.

There are 5 breaches in which Think could fall foul of the legislation. Crucially only ONE of the 5 has to be met for the legislation to kick in and rope the Drivers company in. HMRC knew of one breach back in Sept 2011 after interviewing the Directors of Think, they met further times in 2012 and uncovered more breaches. Remember only ONE breach had to be met. Just a simple thing like only charging a fee when the the Driver worked and not charging when he did not work is a breach.

So in a normal world, not HMRCs world, they had every opportunity to strike in 2012. Strangely enough, the Drivers were consulted lastly, in the case I know of,the Driver was interviewed in late 2014 and it was another year after that that they issued the Driver with a bill. The point I am making is the longer it went on for, the bigger the bills HMRC issued, whilst doing nothing with the sharks of Think Accounting.

Good point, well made.

[yourhavingalarf]

Robbo…

You’re very vociferous about this. Have you been screwed over by Think?

When I set up my Ltd company all those years ago and paid corporation tax every year without any problems from HMRC, I had the opportunity to join a brolly scheme. In fact several agencies attempted to railroad me into schemes with the threat of ‘you can’t work for us if you don’t’. I wasn’t especially skilled in tax laws, accountancy practice or anything else other than being able to drive an artic.

I didn’t fall for the bait because it seemed so obvious that it was gonna end in tears even back then.

Two things in life, never mess with a rugby players wife or the taxman.

[peirre]

I was being to wonder if he likes to bang on about it.
He also rises to the bait easy
I too got very wise prior to setting up my company, I was able to access several free seminars run by HMRC and understand many of the aspects of basic rules required, which enabled me to my own NI PAYE VAT etc. But I was doing it several years before umbrellas became a novelty. In fact the only umbrellas at the time where for keeping the rain off.So I knew what was doing and kept abreast of new legislation and rule changes.

So maybe Robbo I don’t know what I’m taking about ■■

[del_trotter]

robbo99.:

peirre:

robbo99.:
So when a firm acts fraudulently , its the Drivers fault

The driver should know what the bookkeeper is doing

PS can you preview your posts to check the quotes are correct before submitting

LOL, what world do you live in…Eutopia? So along with his class 1 licence he needs to be an expert in Accounting, company law and so on.

Not at all, but it ain’t exactly hard with corporation tax, at the time it was 20% of profits generated by the company, if you are running a company and don’t have a clue how much profit you make, even approximately, each month you ain’t going to last long in business.

[robbo99]

peirre:
I was being to wonder if he likes to bang on about it.
He also rises to the bait easy
I too got very wise prior to setting up my company, I was able to access several free seminars run by HMRC and understand many of the aspects of basic rules required, which enabled me to my own NI PAYE VAT etc. But I was doing it several years before umbrellas became a novelty. In fact the only umbrellas at the time where for keeping the rain off.So I knew what was doing and kept abreast of new legislation and rule changes.

So maybe Robbo I don’t know what I’m taking about ■■

Oh yeah, I will bang on for England about this topic, the idea of these forums is to have a mass debate, in the talking sense of course, to spread the word.

Im sure you are an expert in many fields, just not MSC legislation. Considering the topic relates to Think Accounting and how people got fleeced its worth having a basic understanding of it.

Regarding keeping abreast of new legislation, how can one keep abreast of MSC legislation when it hadnt been tested until last year? yet individuals were billed as far back as 2011.

Think operated a Company named Think Umbrella Ltd, that was their brolly scheme, Think Accounting did not operate a brolly scheme…Do keep up old chap. “Oops I did it again”, I edited it…so very sorry.

[robbo99]

del trotter:

robbo99.:

peirre:

robbo99.:
So when a firm acts fraudulently , its the Drivers fault

The driver should know what the bookkeeper is doing

PS can you preview your posts to check the quotes are correct before submitting

LOL, what world do you live in…Eutopia? So along with his class 1 licence he needs to be an expert in Accounting, company law and so on.

Not at all, but it ain’t exactly hard with corporation tax, at the time it was 20% of profits generated by the company, if you are running a company and don’t have a clue how much profit you make, even approximately, each month you ain’t going to last long in business.

Oh right… my post referred to the bent activities of an Accountant, not the calculation of corpo tax.

[robbo99]

yourhavingalarf:
Robbo…

You’re very vociferous about this. Have you been screwed over by Think?

When I set up my Ltd company all those years ago and paid corporation tax every year without any problems from HMRC, I had the opportunity to join a brolly scheme. In fact several agencies attempted to railroad me into schemes with the threat of ‘you can’t work for us if you don’t’. I wasn’t especially skilled in tax laws, accountancy practice or anything else other than being able to drive an artic.

I didn’t fall for the bait because it seemed so obvious that it was gonna end in tears even back then.

Two things in life, never mess with a rugby players wife or the taxman.

Think Accounting did not operate a brolly scheme, their other company Think Umbrella did.
Think Accounting fell foul of MSC legislation, thus HMRC deemed Think to be a “provider” and “involved” with the Ltd Drivers Cos, therefore the Ltd Cos got billed as employees of their cos therefore paying 2 lots of NI and more income tax…thats basically it.

[the-snowman]

yourhavingalarf:
Two things in life, never mess with a rugby players wife or the taxman.

Ive always maintained theres 2 other sets of people you dont mess with.
Drunken Irishmen and a black mercedes full of Chinese people

[andrew_simmons]

robbo99.:

morphie:
im a so called victim of think accounting or more of an unwitting victim…im slowly paying hmrc as my bill wasnt as big as some of the lads i worked with but i had it so i guess i must pay it but i certainly didnt go into it thinking i was “dodging tax”

i was made redundant from a 16yr job. as part of the redundancy talks our union at the time got some agencys together and held a night to "help " the 80 or so drivers out . at these meetings every agency there pushed the think accounting way as being the future and oh how good it is you must do it. I / We as drivers went into it blindly under all this “advise” we were given. i had no idea about all the ins and outs of what was invloved. i just wanted to work and pay the bills and as this was “recommended” thats what most of us did very naievely as it turned out. we certainly didnt set out to dodge tax etc. Not all people are like that maybe some but not all.

i understand now how it works and all a bit late am paying it back as said before mine is a pretty small ammount compared to some of the lads i worked with who are in it for over 20 grand.

An absolute classic example here of how this piece of legislation is totally unfair.

We have the Agencies, the Union and Think Accounting pushing what was a total breach of the MSC legislation at the Drivers. Its a fact that Think and the Agencies, (there is one particular Agency which I shall not name but has been mentioned already), that seemed to have been in bed with Think Accounting, both knew of MSC legislation.

Yes, the Driver’s had the choice to say yes or no, but why would they suspect anything, MSC, in the main was unheard of, at least by the man in the street. Im not aware of when the poster started using Think, but Think were aware of the MSC Legislation as far back as Sept 2011, but carried on taking money off people.

When it comes to the usual, “Driver’s deserve it they were tax dodgers”.

Fact, there are thousands of Ltd Co Drivers acting as contractors driving other firms trucks, if this is not allowed then why don’t HMRC close them down? I’m pretty sure you can set up a Ltd Co doing just about anything.

Fact, the only reason why the Drivers have fallen foul of MSC is that HMRC are saying that because Think were classed as a “provider” then those companies that used Think were not being run correctly, so the Ltd Driver was deemed to be employed, so therefore received a large extra bill for 2 lots of NI, 1 as employer NI and 1 as employee NI, and a slightly higher Income tax bill.

Fact, had the Drivers not used Think,and used any other Accountant, then they would have been able to claim just as many expenses as they did with Think without a squeak from HMRC. HMRC set the rules on expenses. It was Think that were breaking the rules.

Fact, had HMRC got their fingers out when they knew of Thinks wrong doings then no one would now be in receipt of large bills, but there again, HMRC like to issue large bills and dont mind taking tax off a fraudulant Accountancy Company, whilst they took 3 years to make a decision, just picture it, by delaying their decision they kept revenues coming in from Think, they kept Thinks employees in a job therefore not claiming benefits and they allowed unsuspecting Drivers to be landed massive bills years down the line from when they could have put a stop to it, ie by shutting Think down in 2011/2012.

Fact, the bills are based on a joint and several basis, which means HMRC go firstly for the Drivers co, when that cant pay they go after the Director, then after Think, then after Thinks Directors then even as far back as the Agency. YES this legislation allows collection from the personal wealth of Directors of Ltd Cos which is totally unique in company law.
If the Drivers are classed as tax avoiders, then why are HMRC able to persue others…Answer beacause HMRC want money and will get it however they can and from whoever they can. If the Driver was a tax dodger then the bill would stay with him.

Transline. They genuinely pressured you to go with Think/New Wave/ Igloo. ‘Its our prefered partner’ I was explicitly told, or I could go with Nova unless I wanted to work for £8-£9 an hour depending on the contract.

[morphie]

as above Transline was one of the agencys at out “help” meetings…some flash blonde bint …its been an expensive lesson in not going blindly with what is recommended and also a lesson in trust . wont happen again

[robbo99]

Andrew.simmons:

robbo99.:

morphie:
im a so called victim of think accounting or more of an unwitting victim…im slowly paying hmrc as my bill wasnt as big as some of the lads i worked with but i had it so i guess i must pay it but i certainly didnt go into it thinking i was “dodging tax”

i was made redundant from a 16yr job. as part of the redundancy talks our union at the time got some agencys together and held a night to "help " the 80 or so drivers out . at these meetings every agency there pushed the think accounting way as being the future and oh how good it is you must do it. I / We as drivers went into it blindly under all this “advise” we were given. i had no idea about all the ins and outs of what was invloved. i just wanted to work and pay the bills and as this was “recommended” thats what most of us did very naievely as it turned out. we certainly didnt set out to dodge tax etc. Not all people are like that maybe some but not all.

i understand now how it works and all a bit late am paying it back as said before mine is a pretty small ammount compared to some of the lads i worked with who are in it for over 20 grand.

An absolute classic example here of how this piece of legislation is totally unfair.

We have the Agencies, the Union and Think Accounting pushing what was a total breach of the MSC legislation at the Drivers. Its a fact that Think and the Agencies, (there is one particular Agency which I shall not name but has been mentioned already), that seemed to have been in bed with Think Accounting, both knew of MSC legislation.

Yes, the Driver’s had the choice to say yes or no, but why would they suspect anything, MSC, in the main was unheard of, at least by the man in the street. Im not aware of when the poster started using Think, but Think were aware of the MSC Legislation as far back as Sept 2011, but carried on taking money off people.

When it comes to the usual, “Driver’s deserve it they were tax dodgers”.

Fact, there are thousands of Ltd Co Drivers acting as contractors driving other firms trucks, if this is not allowed then why don’t HMRC close them down? I’m pretty sure you can set up a Ltd Co doing just about anything.

Fact, the only reason why the Drivers have fallen foul of MSC is that HMRC are saying that because Think were classed as a “provider” then those companies that used Think were not being run correctly, so the Ltd Driver was deemed to be employed, so therefore received a large extra bill for 2 lots of NI, 1 as employer NI and 1 as employee NI, and a slightly higher Income tax bill.

Fact, had the Drivers not used Think,and used any other Accountant, then they would have been able to claim just as many expenses as they did with Think without a squeak from HMRC. HMRC set the rules on expenses. It was Think that were breaking the rules.

Fact, had HMRC got their fingers out when they knew of Thinks wrong doings then no one would now be in receipt of large bills, but there again, HMRC like to issue large bills and dont mind taking tax off a fraudulant Accountancy Company, whilst they took 3 years to make a decision, just picture it, by delaying their decision they kept revenues coming in from Think, they kept Thinks employees in a job therefore not claiming benefits and they allowed unsuspecting Drivers to be landed massive bills years down the line from when they could have put a stop to it, ie by shutting Think down in 2011/2012.

Fact, the bills are based on a joint and several basis, which means HMRC go firstly for the Drivers co, when that cant pay they go after the Director, then after Think, then after Thinks Directors then even as far back as the Agency. YES this legislation allows collection from the personal wealth of Directors of Ltd Cos which is totally unique in company law.
If the Drivers are classed as tax avoiders, then why are HMRC able to persue others…Answer beacause HMRC want money and will get it however they can and from whoever they can. If the Driver was a tax dodger then the bill would stay with him.

Transline. They genuinely pressured you to go with Think/New Wave/ Igloo. ‘Its our prefered partner’ I was explicitly told, or I could go with Nova unless I wanted to work for £8-£9 an hour depending on the contract.

Yep, thats the Agency I was referring to.

[robbo99]

From what I know, the Agency were paid X amount of money by Think Accounting for each individual Driver that the Agency referred to Think, all of this done without the driver even knowing he was such an asset to the sharks of Think and others.

[andrew_simmons]

Im lucky that I only spent 7 days in January 2015 on this con before I realised what it actually was.

Problem is that I have been point blank refused agency jobs because I only want PAYE and not Umbrella. I dont get how that is legal.

To be self employed surely you must own your own wagon and operating licence.

[robbo99]

Andrew.simmons:
Im lucky that I only spent 7 days in January 2015 on this con before I realised what it actually was.

Problem is that I have been point blank refused agency jobs because I only want PAYE and not Umbrella. I dont get how that is legal.

To be self employed surely you must own your own wagon and operating licence.

As posted already, Think Accounting did not operate a brolly scheme. Think Umbrella operated a brolly scheme.

Your situation is further proof that you are in the same position as a lot of Drivers, ie no Ltd Co means lost opportunities of work. Is it legal ? Well HMRC arent doing much about it apart from letting the sharks operate then billing the Driver further down the line, doesnt seem right to me but as stated HMRC are there to collect revenues come what may.

Regards owning a truck and an O licence to be S/E,then once again, HMRC are taking revenues off thousands of people who are operating as one man band Drivers of other companies trucks, if this is breaking the rules then why is it allowed to continue ? Revenues for HMRC ?

If a window cleaner can buy a clapped out van for say £200, a second hand ladder for say £30, a shammy leather for say £3, a squeegee for a couple of quid and a bucket for a quid and scrounge some water off his customers and get his customers trade through word of mouth, then why are his financial risks any different to a Driver /contractor receiving his work through word of mouth/phone calls, paying out for his own PPE, maps or sat nav or both, paying for his own mickey mouse qualification, sorry I mean CPC qualification, paying for a medical if he is of that age paying for ADR and so on and so on?

[sbhep]

well said robbo

i was hooked by think and have had the dreaded tax bill

they came across as proffesional accountants and i had no reason to suspect otherwise

took me a year to rumble them

so imagine my anger when i got a £4000 tax bill

but right now perfect peirre sticking is two-penneth in all the time is making me more angry

can he not just ■■■■ out and leave us involved with think to disguss it

rather than his little told you so…you deserve it comments all the time

so perfect peirre …peirre off for a while and leave us to talk… right or wrong its not your bag pal

Back to Think i know alot of drivers involved the highest bill i heard was £16,000

I fully agree the taxman should have took action when they knew, and not waited while more and more drivers were conned

I will spread the word and would like to know just how many drivers they robbed and are now on the hmrc hit list

I was told Think had 3,000 active ltd co drivers at one time

I have seen a prepared response from a small group fighting the hmrc, but not heard of an apeal winning yet

keep beating the drum robbo

cheers

Simon

[robbo99]

sbhep:
well said robbo

i was hooked by think and have had the dreaded tax bill

they came across as proffesional accountants and i had no reason to suspect otherwise

took me a year to rumble them

so imagine my anger when i got a £4000 tax bill

but right now perfect peirre sticking is two-penneth in all the time is making me more angry

can he not just ■■■■ out and leave us involved with think to disguss it

rather than his little told you so…you deserve it comments all the time

so perfect peirre …peirre off for a while and leave us to talk… right or wrong its not your bag pal

Back to Think i know alot of drivers involved the highest bill i heard was £16,000

I fully agree the taxman should have took action when they knew, and not waited while more and more drivers were conned

I will spread the word and would like to know just how many drivers they robbed and are now on the hmrc hit list

I was told Think had 3,000 active ltd co drivers at one time

I have seen a prepared response from a small group fighting the hmrc, but not heard of an apeal winning yet

keep beating the drum robbo

cheers

Simon

Cheers sbhep,

Im glad someone agrees with what I post. I will continue to bang on, if it stops one person falling foul of the diabolical MSC legislation, then it has then been worth it. HMRC have in effect facilitated the sharks of Think Accounting in their handling of the whole thing.

As regards the case that has already gone to the Tax Tribunal, this involved a different MSC Provider altogether, the MSC Provider worked with health care professionals and was operated differently to Think Accounting. The 2 Directors of the MSC Provider concerned couldnt even agree as to who owned their company, this fiasco was played out infront of the Tribunal officials, they also were proved to have falsified documents and also admitted to being a Provider, just what HMRC were accusing them of being, lol. HMRC must have been laughing all the way back to the treasury with those 2 clowns as Appellants.

Lets hope that when Thinks cases get to tribunal then HMRC will be shown in their true light of how they have acted and also that the Judge presiding will understand exactly how Think acted and instruct action against the sharks of Think. Hope Mr Aston Martin is reading this, I know HMRC will be doing.

[peirre]

You called ■■?
Peter perfect isn’t available right now, only me, & as I’ve been loitering on TNUK for many years I doubt I’m going anywhere soon. So if you wish to flounce off don’t let the door hit you in the back of the head on the way out

[jackron]

Thanks for the feed back lads just an update .i have managed to gain media attention on the think accounting scam if anybody else feels there a victim then email me on rontierney38@aol.com your story will be your voice and you should be heard… no use sitting there mopeing about it
Do something about it now while you have the chance… take no notice of judge rinder he knows ■■■■■■■■… it hasnt just effected truckers theres also other trades ie oil rig workers. Big thank you to the lads thats akready emailed me

Updates again soon

[robbo99]

Jackron:
Thanks for the feed back lads just an update .i have managed to gain media attention on the think accounting scam if anybody else feels there a victim then email me on rontierney38@aol.com your story will be your voice and you should be heard… no use sitting there mopeing about it
Do something about it now while you have the chance… take no notice of judge rinder he knows ■■■■■■■■… it hasnt just effected truckers theres also other trades ie oil rig workers. Big thank you to the lads thats akready emailed me

Updates again soon

Top man Jackron

Best way forward is what you are doing. Hope you’ve got lots onboard, im with you all the way to get the sharks of Think outed into the public domain, name and shame, then with a bit of luck with enough muck sticking to them then the authorities might actually take an interest. It certainly wont be for the lack of trying on my behalf and obviously on yours too.

robbo99.