switchlogic:
Franglais:
Trump told us he wasn`t a politician, and the evidence so far seems to support that statement. A Republican President with a Republican majority in the House of Representatives and . . . . .not a lot so far. Wait until the mid term elections, and if the Democrats then get a majority. . . ?
Exactly, people were conned into thinking ‘not a politician’ was a good thing but are now realising it isn’t. For all their faults, and they have a great many, politicians do know how to get s… done and rule a country
More like the electorate voted against the establishment ( socialist/cheap labour alliance ) and now that same establishment won’t allow that democratic mandate to be implemented by effectively removing/taking away Trump’s presidential powers when it suits it.
Hence Brit tanks ( the few we have at least ) rolling up to the Russian border in Estonia when Trump had promised to not get involved with posturing and sabre rattling against Russia and Congress and the Supreme Court now suddenly being given the right to block executive orders when no such right existed before.
Franglais:
muckles:
But I fear what might happen, if in a few years the populist movement is sidelined and the established parties have still failed to address the issues
If ordinary people are still struggling with worse pay and condition, more Job insecurity, more debt, more cheap labour and more industry moved to places where costs are lower, then I’m sure we will see civil unrest or revolution, it doesn’t take much, just read a bit of history.
Can Trump deliver on the promises he made? I doubt it. Nothing to do with the “establishment” thwarting him, although he will claim thats what it is. A set of "apple pie for all" promises that are and always were undeliverable. The USA isnt one of Trumps companies where employees do as bidden, or get sacked. And the rest of the world certainly isnt beholden to him either. When Trump fails, he wont say "Oh, well, I tried, but I couldnt do it" will he? Hell blame the system and just look at Winseers post: “The system needs to be changed, whilst he’s still in a position to do thus. He’ll need to use his own people of course, because he doesn’t really have a party machine behind him - just acting against him.”
I think society in the West will be changing soon, and I hope it will be a peaceful change. The mechanisation/automation of work and loss of jobs should be a boon as we all work a few days a week for a living wage, but currently we have fully employed people supporting those who have no/not enough work, and are forced to work for little by the threat of those unemployed undercutting them to obtain work. The system will not go on much longer. Our worries are real, but the speeches of Trump recognize our worries but offer no real solutions, just vacuous promises.
Credit where its due he ran a good election campaign, I never thought he had a chance, but he did it. I hope to be eating my words in a few years as Pres Trump makes a good job of it all, but I may go hungry yet. Im afraid that you`re right, we do “live in interesting times”.
whether Trump, or any of the populist leader if they get voted in, can deliver isn’t the point of my post, the point is the ordinary people are being ignored by politics more concerned with pandering to global corporations with things like free trade agreements that gives them power over elected governments. However missguided the policies and simplistic the answers it’s the only alternative they’re being offered to the status quo.
Your belief of a nice transition to lower working hours for a decent wage when machines take many jobs, I think is very unlikely with a capitalist system, it’s all about short term profit for the shareholders, it will care little for those displaced by machines, the same way it cares little for those displaced by moving production to low wage economies and mass migration of workers from poorer countries to take the jobs that can’t be moved. Karl Marx identified this issue way back in the 19th century.
Those doing well out of the system are not going to relinquish their grip on money and power without a fight, so the only way I can see a fairer system of society coming about is by revolution. Whether that is political revolution or gained through civil unrest is up to the establishment.
I was listening to 5live early hours and some lady claimed these losses he’s having will see voters leave him. Yet in reality imo it will make them stick with him because he’s trying to make the changes. If anything it makes him stronger and if Obama care does fail then he’ll have won a lot more people over.
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
muckles:
whether Trump, or any of the populist leader if they get voted in, can deliver isn’t the point of my post, the point is the ordinary people are being ignored by politics more concerned with pandering to global corporations with things like free trade agreements that gives them power over elected governments. However missguided the policies and simplistic the answers it’s the only alternative they’re being offered to the status quo.
Your belief of a nice transition to lower working hours for a decent wage when machines take many jobs, I think is very unlikely with a capitalist system, it’s all about short term profit for the shareholders, it will care little for those displaced by machines, the same way it cares little for those displaced by moving production to low wage economies and mass migration of workers from poorer countries to take the jobs that can’t be moved. Karl Marx identified this issue way back in the 19th century.
Those doing well out of the system are not going to relinquish their grip on money and power without a fight, so the only way I can see a fairer system of society coming about is by revolution. Whether that is political revolution or gained through civil unrest is up to the establishment.
The fact that Trump seems to be being blocked at every turn by the same establishment that the voters voted against is the same thing as the ‘ordinary people being ignored’ in this case. 
As for the predictable situation referred to by Marx that was obviously conveniently forgotten about in the rush to create a world without Nation Sates and National borders,Socialist utopia.Also bearing in mind that well paid financially independent content workers don’t generally support Socialism or vote Socialist.
As for the latest ‘populist’ label.They’ve obviously gone for that because racist is no longer working and it’s more convenient than them telling the truth that they want to destroy the idea of the Nation State.
The chances of any genuine change is laughable,2 presidents went off message,Lincoln and JFK with predictable consequences,they attempted to thwart the federal reserve,ie the real power brokers,check out President Andrew Jacksons famous “by god i will rout you out” speech to the financial vipers of Jeckyl Island,he didnt last too long either,prob poisoned.
Anyone who puts faith in some saviour of the downtrodden masses is seriously deluded,its like those 70s wrestling matches,everyone knows/suspects they were rigged but still have to emotionally invest in say Mick macmanus over Big Daddy regardless.
There needs to be a mass shift of conscieousness (sic)appropo politicians,governments are the real enemy simply doing their masters bidding-Lazzards,Monsanto,Exxon,Chase Manhattan etc,etc until they get their retirement dividends,like that creep John Major and inevitably Blair all on the payroll as reward for services rendered.
Mass revolutions never work,a mass (100 monkeys) awakening is the only game in town and thankfully it is happening increasingly thank god,many on this forum included.
Off topic but his assistant Kelly Ann Conway does have that certain take it in the face look to her and wouldnt be surprised if she hasnt done her fair share of fumbling under his desk… 
manalishi:
The chances of any genuine change is laughable,2 presidents went off message,Lincoln and JFK with predictable consequences,they attempted to thwart the federal reserve,
Firstly Lincoln being taken out was all about him having tried and succeeded to actually impose the Federal economic and governmental system on those States who had already declared their democratic right of secession from it.Then having been taken out in reprisal in a lone wolf post war of secession ‘terrorist’ attack.
As for JFK the jury is still out.But the idea of him maybe being taken out by a pro Chinese,anti Vietnam War,US big business agenda,to take advantage of cheap Chinese labour,which Nixon and Reagan both then eventually implemented,would be more plausible explanation.Or possibly a Mafia hit or even a combination of both.In which Oswald was,as he said,just a Patsy to divert attention.While the circumstances around the whole Jack Ruby case from start to finish seem suspect.
The difference in this case being that the divisions between the pro Trump electorate v Democrat Obama type agenda are now so wide spread and entrenched that secession and a change to a Confederal government system,that allows the different states to go their seperate ways,will probably be the only solution in the longer term,if Trump isn’t allowed to implement his election manifesto.Regardless of the methods used to stop him and ironically that probably being even more likely assuming they actually succeed in stopping him.IE I’d guess that a large part of the US electorate has had enough of being stitched up and more of the same probably is no longer an option regardless of whether Trump is defeated or not.
Carryfast:
switchlogic:
Franglais:
Trump told us he wasn`t a politician, and the evidence so far seems to support that statement. A Republican President with a Republican majority in the House of Representatives and . . . . .not a lot so far. Wait until the mid term elections, and if the Democrats then get a majority. . . ?
Exactly, people were conned into thinking ‘not a politician’ was a good thing but are now realising it isn’t. For all their faults, and they have a great many, politicians do know how to get s… done and rule a country
More like the electorate voted against the establishment ( socialist/cheap labour alliance ) and now that same establishment won’t allow that democratic mandate to be implemented by effectively removing/taking away Trump’s presidential powers when it suits it.
Hence Brit tanks ( the few we have at least ) rolling up to the Russian border in Estonia when Trump had promised to not get involved with posturing and sabre rattling against Russia and Congress and the Supreme Court now suddenly being given the right to block executive orders when no such right existed before.
I think we should probably remember here that more people actually voted for Clinton, so the electorate voting against the establishment isn’t really true. Besides, all this anti-establishment crap that the likes of Trump and Farage spout is utter bo locks, they’re as part of the establishment as anyone. They’ve just been clever in convincing people they are for the little guy when in reality Trump has a long history of ripping people off via his business
switchlogic:
Carryfast:
switchlogic:
Franglais:
Trump told us he wasn`t a politician, and the evidence so far seems to support that statement. A Republican President with a Republican majority in the House of Representatives and . . . . .not a lot so far. Wait until the mid term elections, and if the Democrats then get a majority. . . ?
Exactly, people were conned into thinking ‘not a politician’ was a good thing but are now realising it isn’t. For all their faults, and they have a great many, politicians do know how to get s… done and rule a country
More like the electorate voted against the establishment ( socialist/cheap labour alliance ) and now that same establishment won’t allow that democratic mandate to be implemented by effectively removing/taking away Trump’s presidential powers when it suits it.
Hence Brit tanks ( the few we have at least ) rolling up to the Russian border in Estonia when Trump had promised to not get involved with posturing and sabre rattling against Russia and Congress and the Supreme Court now suddenly being given the right to block executive orders when no such right existed before.
I think we should probably remember here that more people actually voted for Clinton, so the electorate voting against the establishment isn’t really true. Besides, all this anti-establishment crap that the likes of Trump and Farage spout is utter bo locks, they’re as part of the establishment as anyone. They’ve just been clever in convincing people they are for the little guy when in reality Trump has a long history of ripping people off via his business
The point at least in Europe is these parties are gaining votes, where’s as in the past they would have been fringe parties, Wilfred was second out of 28 in the Dutch election, look at the Austrian presidential election very close, twice, Le Pen looks like she’ll get through to the second round of the French election and then get about 40%, and she’s attracting young voters. Look at the Italian referendum, the government lost, look at the political direction Hungary and Poland have gone. Many people seem to desire change and aren’t getting answers from traditional parties. So as far as i can see unless there is change it will continue.
switchlogic:
I think we should probably remember here that more people actually voted for Clinton, so the electorate voting against the establishment isn’t really true. Besides, all this anti-establishment crap that the likes of Trump and Farage spout is utter bo locks, they’re as part of the establishment as anyone. They’ve just been clever in convincing people they are for the little guy when in reality Trump has a long history of ripping people off via his business
The difference is that only Trump has been the one calling for US jobs for US workers and stopping the import of cheap labour and a protectionist trade policy not globalism.Why would anyone not want to not believe him in that regard and what would be the point of him lying if he had no intention of delivering.
As for the vote.US presidential elections aren’t based on just a simple count of the so called popular vote ( electorate ) which isn’t exactly anything new bearing in mind that under the orginal US constitution there was no President or any provision for a President.Which of course all changed with the US constitution well before 1800.
As I’ve said if Hilary’s rabble don’t like it when the system they’ve been more than happy to go along with goes against them then the obvious solution is to dissolve the undemocratic Federal system and change it back to a Confederal one just as originally intended.Which gives the state legislatures the supreme right of VETO or opt out and the right to make unilateral policy and removing dictatorial locally unelected Presidential powers.Just as the Californian Hilary supporters are now calling for in the form of secession when it suits them.Which would of course also mean the retrospective annulment of all of Obama’s previous executive orders within those states that disagree with them.Oh wait.
Carryfast:
manalishi:
The chances of any genuine change is laughable,2 presidents went off message,Lincoln and JFK with predictable consequences,they attempted to thwart the federal reserve,
Firstly Lincoln being taken out was all about him having tried and succeeded to actually impose the Federal economic and governmental system on those States who had already declared their democratic right of secession from it.Then having been taken out in reprisal in a lone wolf post war of secession ‘terrorist’ attack.
As for JFK the jury is still out.But the idea of him maybe being taken out by a pro Chinese,anti Vietnam War,US big business agenda,to take advantage of cheap Chinese labour,which Nixon and Reagan both then eventually implemented,would be more plausible explanation.Or possibly a Mafia hit or even a combination of both.In which Oswald was,as he said,just a Patsy to divert attention.While the circumstances around the whole Jack Ruby case from start to finish seem suspect.
The difference in this case being that the divisions between the pro Trump electorate v Democrat Obama type agenda are now so wide spread and entrenched that secession and a change to a Confederal government system,that allows the different states to go their seperate ways,will probably be the only solution in the longer term,if Trump isn’t allowed to implement his election manifesto.Regardless of the methods used to stop him and ironically that probably being even more likely assuming they actually succeed in stopping him.IE I’d guess that a large part of the US electorate has had enough of being stitched up and more of the same probably is no longer an option regardless of whether Trump is defeated or not.
I’m more inclined to think of Oswald as a Manchurian,ditto Lincoln’s assassin -John Wilkes Booth,a mason and interestingly a direct relative of mail box mouth,Cherie Booth Blair.
Carryfast:
switchlogic:
I think we should probably remember here that more people actually voted for Clinton, so the electorate voting against the establishment isn’t really true. Besides, all this anti-establishment crap that the likes of Trump and Farage spout is utter bo locks, they’re as part of the establishment as anyone. They’ve just been clever in convincing people they are for the little guy when in reality Trump has a long history of ripping people off via his business
The difference is that only Trump has been the one calling for US jobs for US workers and stopping the import of cheap labour and a protectionist trade policy not globalism.Why would anyone not want to not believe him in that regard and what would be the point of him lying if he had no intention of delivering.
As for the vote.US presidential elections aren’t based on just a simple count of the so called popular vote ( electorate ) which isn’t exactly anything new bearing in mind that under the orginal US constitution there was no President or any provision for a President.Which of course all changed with the US constitution well before 1800.
As I’ve said if Hilary’s rabble don’t like it when the system they’ve been more than happy to go along with goes against them then the obvious solution is to dissolve the undemocratic Federal system and change it back to a Confederal one just as originally intended.Which gives the state legislatures the supreme right of VETO or opt out and the right to make unilateral policy and removing dictatorial locally unelected Presidential powers.Just as the Californian Hilary supporters are now calling for in the form of secession when it suits them.Which would of course also mean the retrospective annulment of all of Obama’s previous executive orders within those states that disagree with them.Oh wait.
You should read the post by Pat Hasler on another thread about Trump. All that working man and US jobs spin is just that, spin. He’s a moderately rich businessman (I don’t think he’s worth anything like what he says, which changes every five minutes anyway), he’s hardly going to shoot business in the foot.
As for what would be the point of him lying if he had no intention of delivering? Well, just that he’s a compulsive liar and will say anything in the moment to smooth his path.
Exhibit one - twitter.com/weddady/status/845993675876372481
I love how people like Carryfast are so cynical and disbelieving of mainstream politicians and the people who support them but BOOM, soon as one demagogue they like look of pops up they swallow everything he says hook line and sinker. Much better to be cynical about ALL politicians unless they deliver promises
switchlogic:
I love how people like Carryfast are so cynical and disbelieving of mainstream politicians and the people who support them but BOOM, soon as one demagogue they like look of pops up they swallow everything he says hook line and sinker. Much better to be cynical about ALL politicians unless they deliver promises
The fact is unless you want anarchy there has to be some form of government.Then it’s just a case of choosing the best possible option.On that note Pat is obviously moaning about the America which has been wrecked by just about every US government since JFK’s administration.With Pat’s lot in NY obviously being onside with that in the form of supporting people like Obama and Hilary at least.With this being the predictable result.No surprise that her supporters are so deluded that they don’t get the connection between her shouting about well paid US jobs for US workers on one hand,while at the same time calling for more ‘free trade’ with China and Mexico etc on the other. 
washingtonpost.com/world/nat … story.html
While Trump hasn’t even had the chance to do what he says he’ll do yet.
While if as you say he’s got no intention of delivering then what is all the aggro about,in the establishment trying to block his plans if they don’t need to and why are Hilary’s lot calling for secession for California and other Hilary supporting states because they didn’t like the way the vote went ?.In addition to which what would be the point in him going to all the aggro of campaigning to be president if he knows he’ll be chucked out at the next election because he’s got no intention of delivering his promises ?.
manalishi:
I’m more inclined to think of Oswald as a Manchurian,ditto Lincoln’s assassin -John Wilkes Booth,a mason and interestingly a direct relative of mail box mouth,Cherie Booth Blair.
Firstly also bearing in mind the timing it’s probably a reasonable assumption that Lincoln was assassinated in reprisal for and because of his actions in smashing the CSA.
But the JFK question is much more complicated.In which hindsight and all the signs are that it was Chinese Communism which benefitted most by getting rid of JFK not Russian and/or scores being settled regarding organised crime v the Kennedys.While ‘if’ the suggestions that Hoffa might also have been implicated in all that are correct it raises the question as to why would Kennedy have not realised that the Unions were actually his allies regarding paying workers more and given Hoffa some space in that regard rather than backing him into a corner.Bearing in mind that Hoffa probably didn’t have much choice regarding his alleged Mob links from the early days of his union activeties ?.It’s also strange as to the timing of Nixon releasing Hoffa and the obvious results soon after.While the credibility of Nixon’s presidency speaks for itself as do the links he forged and kicked off between US big business and Communist China.
Carryfast:
Edit to add.
jfkmurdersolved.com/bush2.htm
Very interesting,but my Intuitions lean more to both JFK and Abe attempting to bypass the fed tying the dollar currency to silver,'lincolns Greenback’s for example,thus sidestepping the federal reserve,a satanic entity if ever there was,then kick-starting the whole masonic death machine.
The us was/is a masonic project,the founding fathers were Freemasons,the Boston tea party consisted of masonic agents disguised as native Americans.The city of Washington is architecturally modeled upon Masonic/cabalistic principles,i suppose it’s what books you believe but there’s a good one by SK Bain,-the most dangerous book in the world ,9/11 that’s well worth a punt.
Unfortunately all the politicians do is rubber stamp the wishes of the people that really run the country. The lobbyists acting on behalf of their paymasters, big business. That’s what runs America.
.
If Trump has a few small successes against them, more and more politicians will get behind him, they’re very good at switching allegiance when it continues their ride on the gravy train.
Will it happen? I wouldn’t bet against it, he’s quite tenacious, if he manages a full four years without coming down with a terminal case of high velocity lead poisoning and gets another term in office, he could achieve his aims.
newmercman:
Unfortunately all the politicians do is rubber stamp the wishes of the people that really run the country. The lobbyists acting on behalf of their paymasters, big business. That’s what runs America.
.
If Trump has a few small successes against them, more and more politicians will get behind him, they’re very good at switching allegiance when it continues their ride on the gravy train.
Will it happen? I wouldn’t bet against it, he’s quite tenacious, if he manages a full four years without coming down with a terminal case of high velocity lead poisoning and gets another term in office, he could achieve his aims.
The key will probably be if he can convince those pulling the strings that there’s more profit over all and less debt by keeping as many dollars as possible at home instead of cutting the Chinese and Mexicans etc in on the deal.While more and higher paid workers means more money being spent by them.
Carryfast:
switchlogic:
I love how people like Carryfast are so cynical and disbelieving of mainstream politicians and the people who support them but BOOM, soon as one demagogue they like look of pops up they swallow everything he says hook line and sinker. Much better to be cynical about ALL politicians unless they deliver promises
The fact is unless you want anarchy there has to be some form of government.Then it’s just a case of choosing the best possible option.On that note Pat is obviously moaning about the America which has been wrecked by just about every US government since JFK’s administration.With Pat’s lot in NY obviously being onside with that in the form of supporting people like Obama and Hilary at least.With this being the predictable result.No surprise that her supporters are so deluded that they don’t get the connection between her shouting about well paid US jobs for US workers on one hand,while at the same time calling for more ‘free trade’ with China and Mexico etc on the other.
washingtonpost.com/world/nat … story.html
While Trump hasn’t even had the chance to do what he says he’ll do yet.
While if as you say he’s got no intention of delivering then what is all the aggro about,in the establishment trying to block his plans if they don’t need to and why are Hilary’s lot calling for secession for California and other Hilary supporting states because they didn’t like the way the vote went ?.In addition to which what would be the point in him going to all the aggro of campaigning to be president if he knows he’ll be chucked out at the next election because he’s got no intention of delivering his promises ?.
How long will you blame every failure on ‘Hillary supporters’? It’s starting to wear a little thin old chap, it’s becoming a Carryfast cliché almost on a par with WW2, Thatcher, casual racism & 6x4’s 