Salisbury alleged Russian connection [Merged]

[carryfast]

Winseer:
Where’s the video of Putin threatening to nuke us?

Didn’t he tell May who does she think she is issuing an ‘ultimatum’ ( for answers ) ‘‘to a nuclear power’’ ?.Seems like a strange answer from someone who is supposedly innocent and can realistically only have one inference just as Putin intended.

Then added to by the UK is playing with fire and will be sorry.So define the logical inference of ‘fire’ and ‘sorry’ bearing in mind the reference to Russia’s nuclear status.

As opposed to Putin just settling for May and Johnson are liars and aren’t even trusted by many of their own people regarding the incident and Russia has no issues with the Brit population and awaits May’s evidence.

Which then leaves the question why didn’t NATO return the threat in kind instead of just chucking out a few ‘diplomats’ and imposing economic sanctions.Seems like a strange reaction to a clear threat of nuclear attack.Also why no reaction from NATO regarding China’s support of Russia’s threats.Looks like we’re being played by all sides here with a cowardly population that’s too scared to question all the agendas.

[franglais]

Winseer:
Where’s the video of Putin threatening to nuke us?

It’s on YouTube.
After “The Spy Who Came In From The Cold”, but before “Dr Strangelove”!

Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk

[manalishi]

Winseer:
I have yet to see a video of Putin threatening a nuclear attack. I have seen one of his latest weaponry being tested. Is there any possibility that this “threat of Putin’s” is yet another bit of mickey mouse news? China must be pretty ■■■■■■ off with the West always banging on about what amounts to “don’t like your political system there”, which of course, - is none of the west’s business. The Chinese invented Banking, and the Russians invented the AK47… And Novichok. I don’t think there is really that large a threat of Nuclear War, since we all know we’re ALL dead if it happens. Perhaps the EU are attempting in their death throes - to “call Putin’s Bluff”, either on his willingness to go to war if attacked first by the West, or to test out his “Dead Man’s Switch” so often spoken of. Putin looked weak when moving closer rather than further from Turkey after one of Russia’s own planes was shot down by Erdogan’s Turkey. Now, we’re told he’s getting even closer still to Erdogan’s Turkey. How would the West feel, if he later turned on Erdogan, and backstabbed him off the planet for good? Would we care in the West? Plenty would be said of Putin’s “Bad Faith”, but he’s already way past that point, with the world told to believe any old tripe that they might want to make up about him - for what exactly? - Just disagee with the current Russian political system as we do in China, but without the world’s largest armed forces to do much outside their own country? China could conquer the Earth easily. But choose to stay at home. Russia could hit any part of the world with an excess of missiles… But choose to reach out, and form trading relations with their energy products, in particular Natural Gas. The west don’t mind pulling the rug on Putin’s overtures though, so I must assume that they think he’s in a continuing position of weakness, perhaps from the effects of past sanctions. Well, I for one - don’t believe that Putin’s Russia is anywhere near as hard-up as we’re led to believe right now. Plenty of money to build these fancy new supersonic nuclear missiles, that make “Rocket Man’s Toys” look like - just that. Toys. Trump has fallen to the deep state, hence why he’s no longer going to prove effective at getting much if any of his key policies done. Protectionism? - Interest rates will rise sharply in the US, as China starts to wean itself off lending cheap money to the States. That would actually suit the monied, as they want a better return on their cashpots after all. Businesses and private citizens wishing to borrow though? - Well that’s going to be a bit harder in future, but not like the 1930’s, more like the 1980’s model for the US economy,looking on.

I don’t think any part of Salisbury has been aimed at “Playing Trump” though. If Trump were a lot more friendly with May, I might have thought different, but my guess right now is that anything happening to May’s Britain in Trump’s eyes, should just hasten her departure, rather than Britain’s departure from the EU, or indeed Britain’s departure from the planet - if things really get ugly before long.

Hoey would have to rise, and Starmer would have to fall - before Brexit voters that currently don’t vote Labour - would start to re-consider. Boris, isn’t an expert at getting things done, just making noises about things that really, are not his remit. When they ARE his area of influence - he’s not much good at getting things done either… He hasn’t achieved much in Iran - for starters! They’ve asked for an honouring of an old debt, which would work out at costing Britain a 9-figure sum to get one single woman released… Boris, has walked away and accepted this “price too far” as “No” for an answer then. It’s Trump that wanted to sour relations with Iran, possibly leading to a War - not any of the NATO leaders. War with Iran ain’t gonna happen any more than WWIII is.

Getting out of the EU is all about re-setting our trade routes about the world. We managed to do that from time to time during the Empire years, when “Gunboat Diplomacy” had failed. Life goes on though, and the biggest set of “committments” seems to be that the UK MUST follow EU laws, even if those laws say “Shaft your own citizens forever, and let as many terrorists into your country as we tell you to”. A major part of voting Leave was “Breaking away from EU laws” rather than “Immigration” or “Jobs”. We MUST break EU laws to Leave, because it’s simply not allowed otherwise. Our civil servants, used to years of over-pay for sitting at desks letting the trade economy run itself - STILL won’t get off their Gold-Plated Pensioned arses and do what needs to be done - re-set each and every trade route that Britain has. If the EU won’t buy our stuff any more, there’s plenty of other countries that will. If the EU won’t lend us credit any more, would more reliance upon the Far East do as any more harm than it already has? The Chinese have kept interest rates as low as they are for as long as they’ve been down here. They totally own the global banking system at this time, like it or not.

The “Costs of Leaving” - PROPERLY will be minus whatever we pay to Brussels now. Stop those payments, and we’re better off straight away by that amount, just as you’re better off if your brother who’s just won the lottery - pays your mortgage for you from now on… Take away a minus - and you get a plus. We don’t need to find “New Markets”, - just mobilize the transport industry, in particular the merchant shipping routes - to take our stuff the EU will not buy out of spite - to faraway places where they’ve already expressed an interest, no drop in price needed, nor arguments about quality, tariffs, etc. As for what we buy - the moment Brexit is completed, the Pound climbs at least back to where it was when we fell into this “uncertainty transition period” that we’ve been stuck in for the past 22 months.

Brexit “not being done” favours Labour, because if it’s actually complete - then the Tories will kill Labour at the polls, the positive uplift from a completed Brexit, being rather quick to show on the balance sheet. How about the last budget before the next general election being “Income tax cut to 15% across the board, no higher rate at all” or “180 New full-sized casualty hospitals built, funded, and fully staffed with new money massively beyond what we could ever borrow in the past - courtesy of what we’re not paying to Brussels any more”.. The Prize, like a big plum cherry - is there for the picking. And all our main party leaders do right now, is pick their noses instead.

I was fooled by Boris, because I figured he wanted to be PM one day more than he was prepared to continue banging the drum for Europhiles any more. I voted Tory at the last election, because I feared Corbyn’s front bench then and now. Corbyn is just a figurehead, but with Momentum, McCluskey, McDonnell, Khaaan, Starmer, Abbot, and for all I care - Costello too - still about, I’ve already allowed myself to be “polarized” at the last election. That won’t happen at the next one. I believe this long period upto the next election will allow for brand new indepdendent candidates to start making their presences felt on the political stage. Constituency candidates looking to become MPs to serve their local public first and foremost, leaving Westminster out of the equation for a while.

NO politician has taken the “Gandhi-like” option of telling the public to engage on a campaign of “Civil Disobedience” though. That, for the time being - seems like an “ask too far”. Telling Gamblers that they should default their credit cards for example, rather than kill themselves over the shame of “being in debt, and not being able to pay it back”. Imagine the power one could harness - if you turned such downtrodden members of the public to your cause? - It would be like a new-age religion almost… “Default Macht Frei” if you will.

Efforts to get Billionaire Business Leaders to live up to their financial obligations to their own staff, like full pension payouts - have now been deflected into this “Anti Semitic” row of course.

If the only way to break free of the cycle of Centerist, flaccid, political rule pretending to be both Conservative and Socialist at the same time - is war, (as a cull, rather than political solution) - then guess what? History tells us that “War is a continuation of Diplomacy and Politics by other means”. In this war though, it’s the best skill sets multiplied by the most people that wins - not the wealthiest nations, nor highest standards of living in those nations.

That means the West, has actually lost WWIII before it even starts of course.
Not being negative, just a realist. WE cannot afford to have WIII - because we’d all be dead to the last. We’d go out like fabled Atlantis - “The world won’t even remember that we once existed”. The East? - There’s so many of them, spread so far about, that even a global nuclear holocaust could not hope to wipe them all out, even if Technology went back a thousand years in the aftermath…

Bloody hell,a masterpiece,surely a nobel prize winning polemic.Awesome stuff WWinseer

[rjan]

Carryfast:

Winseer:
Where’s the video of Putin threatening to nuke us?

Didn’t he tell May who does she think she is issuing an ‘ultimatum’ ( for answers ) ‘‘to a nuclear power’’ ?.Seems like a strange answer from someone who is supposedly innocent and can realistically only have one inference just as Putin intended.

Is that not just consistent with someone saying “I won’t be bullied, and if you do you’re going to get a bloody nose!”?

[carryfast]

Rjan:

Carryfast:

Winseer:
Where’s the video of Putin threatening to nuke us?

Didn’t he tell May who does she think she is issuing an ‘ultimatum’ ( for answers ) ‘‘to a nuclear power’’ ?.Seems like a strange answer from someone who is supposedly innocent and can realistically only have one inference just as Putin intended.

Is that not just consistent with someone saying “I won’t be bullied, and if you do you’re going to get a bloody nose!”?

No it’s consistent with Putin answering May’s ‘request’ for ‘answers’ regarding a possible WMD attack threat with a threat to kill us all with nukes instead/or as well as.Then just to remove any doubt followed by threat no 3 in the form of if Britain plays with fire we’ll be sorry.

So what’s wrong with just saying that May and Johnson and the EU and NATO are all lying bullies and Russia has no issues with Britain or its people.( Quite credible ).That was until they went typically slavic full ■■■■■■ and showed their true colours as above and as in the case of the Cuban missile crisis and their actions in post ww2 Europe.Knuggle dragging morons either way and which leaves the only question why didn’t NATO respond in kind as Kennedy did.

[the-snowman]

How much more proof do you need?

Carryfast:
It was obviously an addition to the post not an answer.

It was a joke man, Relax.
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We all know youll always get the last word anyway

[rjan]

Carryfast:

Rjan:

Carryfast:

Winseer:
Where’s the video of Putin threatening to nuke us?

Didn’t he tell May who does she think she is issuing an ‘ultimatum’ ( for answers ) ‘‘to a nuclear power’’ ?.Seems like a strange answer from someone who is supposedly innocent and can realistically only have one inference just as Putin intended.

Is that not just consistent with someone saying “I won’t be bullied, and if you do you’re going to get a bloody nose!”?

No it’s consistent with Putin answering May’s ‘request’ for ‘answers’ regarding a possible WMD attack threat with a threat to kill us all with nukes instead/or as well as.Then just to remove any doubt followed by threat no 3 in the form of if Britain plays with fire we’ll be sorry.

So what’s wrong with just saying that May and Johnson and the EU and NATO are all lying bullies and Russia has no issues with Britain or its people.( Quite credible ).That was until they went typically slavic full ■■■■■■ and showed their true colours as above and as in the case of the Cuban missile crisis and their actions in post ww2 Europe.Knuggle dragging morons either way and which leaves the only question why didn’t NATO respond in kind as Kennedy did.

Because it’s a PR coup for Putin on every front, even if he was not responsible.

This idea that the Russians are going to come to the British Tories with the begging bowl of justice, pleading their innocence, presupposes that they feel the need to do so, or that it would be in the interests of the right-wing Putin government to do so (even if the allegations are false).

So far there is, in legal terms, no case to answer. There is no evidence that the Russians can rebut. Indeed it is only the Tory government, Boris specifically, that has been shown conclusively to be the liar so far.

The Russians have denied the allegations outright. Since the allegations have no evidence to support them (except vague allusions to sneaky-beaky, tap-on-the-nose “intelligence”, about which nobody believes a word the Tories are saying), what else are the Russians to do? What more can they come up with to prove their innocence, other than a flat denial?

The simple fact is, taking the case at its highest, putting a foreign spy into a medically-induced coma for a few weeks is not enough to make the British man on the street put a rifle into his son’s hand and send him to the Russian front. And, on this interpretation, Russia has therefore called our bluff on the subject - and the only alternative with exchanged spies in future, will be to provide witness protection.

At any rate, if we do have some sort of highly-placed double agents who are able to confirm that Putin is responsible for the poison attack, then the very fact that such agents exist, suggests that Putin has a serious problem with British infiltration at the highest level. And of course, we are merely invited to believe, without a shred of evidence, that such double agents exist and that they are cast-iron reliable.

And taken at the lowest, the British public simply don’t believe a word the Tories are saying. Boris is a liar. The Tory government are proven liars. The Tories will do anything to cling onto power - including following the narrative that a war or national conflict, even one based on deceit, is always favourable to the government of the day.

The Tories’ own bluff has been called by Corbyn and they’ve been caught with their trousers down - just like every government of the past 20 years has been caught with its trousers down when it came to foreign wars, sold to the public on the basis of (what turned out to be) utter lies.

Indeed, the narrative that war is good for a political party has hardly any evidence. The victor of the second world war, Churchill, was evicted from office immediately afterward in preference to a Labour government. Blair is the most personally reviled prime minister in recent history, in large part on account of his foreign policy decisions.

The Tories won in 1983 because Labour was in disarray and the Thatcherites had a seemingly credible programme for government (including the willingness of the electorate to gamble their future prosperity in the marketplace), not because they successfully fought a laughably small war against the Argentinians.

The latter was the icing on the cake in 1983, not the substance of the Tories’ success then, but ever since the right-wingers have swallowed their own propaganda about it, consistently believing that Thatcher won in 1983 simply because of the Falklands, and have therefore come to believe that creating unnecessary wars and conflicts will naturally assure the government of the day another victory at the ballot box.

[winseer]

Carryfast:

Rjan:

Carryfast:

Winseer:
Where’s the video of Putin threatening to nuke us?

Didn’t he tell May who does she think she is issuing an ‘ultimatum’ ( for answers ) ‘‘to a nuclear power’’ ?.Seems like a strange answer from someone who is supposedly innocent and can realistically only have one inference just as Putin intended.

Is that not just consistent with someone saying “I won’t be bullied, and if you do you’re going to get a bloody nose!”?

No it’s consistent with Putin answering May’s ‘request’ for ‘answers’ regarding a possible WMD attack threat with a threat to kill us all with nukes instead/or as well as.Then just to remove any doubt followed by threat no 3 in the form of if Britain plays with fire we’ll be sorry.

So what’s wrong with just saying that May and Johnson and the EU and NATO are all lying bullies and Russia has no issues with Britain or its people.( Quite credible ).That was until they went typically slavic full ■■■■■■ and showed their true colours as above and as in the case of the Cuban missile crisis and their actions in post ww2 Europe.Knuggle dragging morons either way and which leaves the only question why didn’t NATO respond in kind as Kennedy did.

Actually folks, there’s room right there for a different interpretation:

Putin might well now retaliate with a “War of Assassins” - meaning he’ll send actual agents, and lots of - to bump off UK government people wherever he can find them.
By attacking unpopular politicians in a surgical manner so innocent members of the public are not “taken out as collateral damage” - we would see a “Hearts and Minds” victory on the political stage for Putin over Britain’s establishment rather than it’s people, who by this point - wouldn’t care if people like Boris, May, Abbot, Starmer, Cable, et all - all fell to the ground, foaming at the mouth whilst walking down whitehall one day…

An election?

The Establishment Party would call for votes to “go to total war with Russia” to protect the position of the elites, landed gentry, banking system, NATO, EU, etc etc.

The Anti-Establishment party would call for votes to "Hard-Leave the EU, buy cheap Natural Gas off Russia, and bury the hatchet asap, and stop taking in migrants from areas we don’t have to any more. Jobbed and Monied people only as per other decent nations of the world.

Who’d do you think would win such an election?

I reckon Russia has no plans to invade Britain, no plans to Nuke Britain, but some plans to rid the (future grateful?) citizens of Britain of their corrupt establishment once and for all. War against the Centerists that we thought we voted out, only to still find them with their collective hands up our skirts 3 years later, and reaching further up as we speak. #Me Too? - More like #FFS Not again!

If Theresa May & Co think they can win a battle of hearts and mind in a similar manner to the DNC in America thought they could hurl bullshine all day and night at Trump’s campaign, - can only result in the same kind of outcome. The attackers and haters would do the work for the rest of us, and we’d just vote out all those lying barstewards who think that taking this country to the brink of war with a nuclear superpower in the name of centerist politics - seemed like “The right thing to do at the time”.

Even with today’s Drive-into-crowd attack in Germany, I am deeply suspcious that 2 days before a Hungarian Right-Winger goes for re-election - a “Throwdown Opportunity” is not going to be taken up by the German authorities?

Already, we’re told this perp “Killed himseld in his vehicle with a gun”. (Did he really? Did anyone film it?) That he is “known to have mental health issues, is white, and is nothing to do with Islamic Terrorism” - but "We don’t know who he is yet. REALLY? Then how TF do you know the rest of that stuff about him?

What follows - is pure conjecture…
Meanwhile, a remand center a few miles away has a suitable perp, a known Right-Winger recently arrested for “Hate Speech” (free speech) offences…

Take the gun from at the car scene, blow this guy in jail away with a point blank shot to the head from this gun, making it look like “self-inflicted”, swap bodies with the guy in the car, and then hey presto - an unknown Islamic convert is brushed under the carpet, now replaced by stealth - with a dead and known Right Wing Activist, and an excuse comes to not only boot AfD out of the Reichstag, but support for Orban’s re-election in Hungary is weakened, killing two birds with the one stone!

That was WInseer’s Conspiracy Theory of the Week.

Tune in next week for questions like:-

“Does Doggichock really cause Diabetes?”
“Does Theresa May really have DIabetes?”
“Did you know that Russian Blue Cats are highly subject to Diabetes - from all the custard they like to consume?”
“Is Salisbury more famous for it’s (a) Plain (b) Bull (c) Rain”?

[carryfast]

Rjan:

Carryfast:
So what’s wrong with just saying that May and Johnson and the EU and NATO are all lying bullies and Russia has no issues with Britain or its people.( Quite credible ).That was until they went typically slavic full ■■■■■■ and showed their true colours as above and as in the case of the Cuban missile crisis and their actions in post ww2 Europe.Knuggle dragging morons either way and which leaves the only question why didn’t NATO respond in kind as Kennedy did.

Because it’s a PR coup for Putin on every front, even if he was not responsible.

This idea that the Russians are going to come to the British Tories with the begging bowl of justice, pleading their innocence, presupposes that they feel the need to do so, or that it would be in the interests of the right-wing Putin government to do so (even if the allegations are false).

So far there is, in legal terms, no case to answer. There is no evidence that the Russians can rebut. Indeed it is only the Tory government, Boris specifically, that has been shown conclusively to be the liar so far.

The Russians have denied the allegations outright. Since the allegations have no evidence to support them (except vague allusions to sneaky-beaky, tap-on-the-nose “intelligence”, about which nobody believes a word the Tories are saying), what else are the Russians to do? What more can they come up with to prove their innocence, other than a flat denial?

The simple fact is, taking the case at its highest, putting a foreign spy into a medically-induced coma for a few weeks is not enough to make the British man on the street put a rifle into his son’s hand and send him to the Russian front. And, on this interpretation, Russia has therefore called our bluff on the subject - and the only alternative with exchanged spies in future, will be to provide witness protection.

At any rate, if we do have some sort of highly-placed double agents who are able to confirm that Putin is responsible for the poison attack, then the very fact that such agents exist, suggests that Putin has a serious problem with British infiltration at the highest level. And of course, we are merely invited to believe, without a shred of evidence, that such double agents exist and that they are cast-iron reliable.

And taken at the lowest, the British public simply don’t believe a word the Tories are saying. Boris is a liar. The Tory government are proven liars. The Tories will do anything to cling onto power - including following the narrative that a war or national conflict, even one based on deceit, is always favourable to the government of the day.

The Tories’ own bluff has been called by Corbyn and they’ve been caught with their trousers down - just like every government of the past 20 years has been caught with its trousers down when it came to foreign wars, sold to the public on the basis of (what turned out to be) utter lies.

Indeed, the narrative that war is good for a political party has hardly any evidence. The victor of the second world war, Churchill, was evicted from office immediately afterward in preference to a Labour government. Blair is the most personally reviled prime minister in recent history, in large part on account of his foreign policy decisions.

The Tories won in 1983 because Labour was in disarray and the Thatcherites had a seemingly credible programme for government (including the willingness of the electorate to gamble their future prosperity in the marketplace), not because they successfully fought a laughably small war against the Argentinians.

We’re not discussing Thatcher’s opportunistic war against a bunch of Argentine conscripts with her cut price navy pitted against theirs and only just winning out.We’re discussing Russia and China clearly threatening the West ( nothing new there ).

If the Russians were innocent of what logically seems very much like a WMD warning by a disabled chem weapon certainly not an attack,they obviously didn’t need to go begging to anyone.When as I said just telling the world that May and Bo Jo are liars and show us all the evidence proving Russia’s guilt beyond reasonable doubt was more than good enough in providing Putin with all the moral high ground he needs.

While what Putin actually did,in issuing two more clear belligerent ‘warnings’ of WMD attack on us,says it all.Just as anyone responding to a Police caution with zb you they’ll blow up the police station and kill everyone in it and the bleedin town that it’s located in and who ever it is who is accusing them,will definitely harm their defence even if they really think that they’ve been,or even have been,nicked by bent coppers trying to fit them up.

In which case going by the norms of defence policy in this case we would have expected to UK government to respond in kind to Russia’s threats of annihilation made against us and in which no one among the population should consider themselves as being non expendable to face all the implications of that.While it’s obvious that I’m not talking about putting a rifle in anyone’s hands as part of that.Just as no one was subject to any draft/conscription here or in the States during the Cuban missile crisis or any other part of the strategic Cold War deterrent based on mutually assured destruction.All that’s being called for is exactly the same level of commitment that the general population showed in keeping us safe then which went along the lines of if Russia wants to try it bring it on.They’ll definitely take us out but we’ll take the zb’s with us.Oh wait the result being an uneasy peace but definitely no WW3 because the Northern Hemisphere is obviously still here.

While your obviously cowardly/pacifist attitude to a clear case of Russian/Chinese aggression in this case is appeasement.In which case congratulations what you and those like you have done is to put us all at far greater risk of NBC attack from the East,if we don’t bow down to whatever the zb’s agenda is,than we ever faced during the 1960’s/70’s.

Unless that is Russia,China and the West knows that the whole thing is a charade to test the resolve of the Western populations against being turned into submissive drones to be easily exploited by the new world order based on an alliance of corrupted Capitalism and Communism.( Likely ) unless that is we’re also supposed to believe,that inviting our potential enemies inside our own borders,while also helping to contribute to their military build up and that NATO is now in the business of meeting the threat of WMD attack by Russia and China with ‘economic sanctions’ applied against Russia and business as usual with China.

[carryfast]

Winseer:
Actually folks, there’s room right there for a different interpretation:

Putin might well now retaliate with a “War of Assassins” - meaning he’ll send actual agents, and lots of - to bump off UK government people wherever he can find them.
By attacking unpopular politicians in a surgical manner so innocent members of the public are not “taken out as collateral damage” - we would see a “Hearts and Minds” victory on the political stage for Putin over Britain’s establishment rather than it’s people, who by this point - wouldn’t care if people like Boris, May, Abbot, Starmer, Cable, et all - all fell to the ground, foaming at the mouth whilst walking down whitehall one day…

An election?

The Establishment Party would call for votes to “go to total war with Russia” to protect the position of the elites, landed gentry, banking system, NATO, EU, etc etc.

The Anti-Establishment party would call for votes to "Hard-Leave the EU, buy cheap Natural Gas off Russia, and bury the hatchet asap, and stop taking in migrants from areas we don’t have to any more. Jobbed and Monied people only as per other decent nations of the world.

Who’d do you think would win such an election?

I reckon Russia has no plans to invade Britain, no plans to Nuke Britain, but some plans to rid the (future grateful?) citizens of Britain of their corrupt establishment once and for all. War against the Centerists that we thought we voted out, only to still find them with their collective hands up our skirts 3 years later, and reaching further up as we speak. #Me Too? - More like #FFS Not again!

If Theresa May & Co think they can win a battle of hearts and mind in a similar manner to the DNC in America thought they could hurl bullshine all day and night at Trump’s campaign, - can only result in the same kind of outcome. The attackers and haters would do the work for the rest of us, and we’d just vote out all those lying barstewards who think that taking this country to the brink of war with a nuclear superpower in the name of centerist politics - seemed like “The right thing to do at the time”.

Even with today’s Drive-into-crowd attack in Germany, I am deeply suspcious that 2 days before a Hungarian Right-Winger goes for re-election - a “Throwdown Opportunity” is not going to be taken up by the German authorities?

Already, we’re told this perp “Killed himseld in his vehicle with a gun”. (Did he really? Did anyone film it?) That he is “known to have mental health issues, is white, and is nothing to do with Islamic Terrorism” - but "We don’t know who he is yet. REALLY? Then how TF do you know the rest of that stuff about him?

What follows - is pure conjecture…
Meanwhile, a remand center a few miles away has a suitable perp, a known Right-Winger recently arrested for “Hate Speech” (free speech) offences…

Take the gun from at the car scene, blow this guy in jail away with a point blank shot to the head from this gun, making it look like “self-inflicted”, swap bodies with the guy in the car, and then hey presto - an unknown Islamic convert is brushed under the carpet, now replaced by stealth - with a dead and known Right Wing Activist, and an excuse comes to not only boot AfD out of the Reichstag, but support for Orban’s re-election in Hungary is weakened, killing two birds with the one stone!
0

That was WInseer’s Conspiracy Theory of the Week.

Tune in next week for questions like:-

“Does Doggichock really cause Diabetes?”
“Does Theresa May really have DIabetes?”
“Did you know that Russian Blue Cats are highly subject to Diabetes - from all the custard they like to consume?”
“Is Salisbury more famous for it’s (a) Plain (b) Bull (c) Rain”?

If Putin wanted to carry out surgical regime change to ‘liberate’ us from our own government then he obviously ain’t going to threaten us with WMD’s which he’s clearly done at least twice and possibly 3 times now.

Isn’t Trump also supposedly an anti establishment figure ?.Not telling the EU that the US no longer recognises the UK as an EU member state and that the US views the UK government as having acted despotically outside of its democratic mandate by not ratifying the Leave vote,seems like a strange way of showing it.As does not telling the EU and NATO to stop their open door policy regarding the Islamic invasion of Europe and back off from Russia’s back yard and if not he’ll ditch US membership of NATO.IE we didn’t ever need Putin to ‘liberate’ us from bleedin May and the EU when Trump is more than capable of doing that better.

How and in what way does Jinping fit the description of ‘anti establishment’.

Also how do you explain Jinping’s support of Putin’s actions in threatening us with his nuclear arsenal.Also the difference in Trump’s actions regarding North Korean threats in that regard v Russia’s and China’s.IE we’ve got bigger and better nukes in the case of Korea but ‘economic sanctions’ and ‘diplomatic expulsions’ in the case of Russia and effectively business as usual in the case of China in the form of more western cash going into the Chinese military machine.

Is the Trump we see now the same Trump we saw in the lead up to the US presidential election.Is it the same Trump who went in for the handover with Obama as who came out.Has the real Trump been warned off.

If Merkel is trying to pull a false flag stunt against the AfD and Orban why is Orban staying silent on it.Also why is Trump not asking questions.

Wake up smell the Coffee.China is the elephant in the room here and everything else is an agenda within China’s agenda.

[rjan]

Winseer:
[…]

I couldn’t help thinking of that old Russian joke formula.

In Russia, government control media. In Britain, media control government!

[rjan]

Carryfast:
While what Putin actually did,in issuing two more clear belligerent ‘warnings’ of WMD attack on us,says it all.Just as anyone responding to a Police caution with zb you they’ll blow up the police station and kill everyone in it and the bleedin town that it’s located in and who ever it is who is accusing them,will definitely harm their defence even if they really think that they’ve been,or even have been,nicked by bent coppers trying to fit them up.

The difference is that the Tories are not the international police force. They are not even bent coppers. They are no coppers at all. They are simply bent.

They are the raving lunatic in the community who have made some provocative accusation without a shred of evidence, and having done so the Russian has stepped out his front door, shook his fist, and warned them “come closer and make these accusations without any evidence, without a single witness, and I’ll knock you for six”.

The fact is, our interests as a nation of people are not remotely threatened. Let us take the case at its highest, and suppose both that Russia poisoned Skripal, and that we have more double agents willing to disclose that Putin was responsible.

Well, since no physical evidence exists, the British government have disclosed that such agents must exist. And the Russians have been shown to be bunglers when it comes to assassinations - the resources of an ex-superpower cannot even buy a single decent assassin.

So it has shown that the British are waging a war of infiltration against the Russians - a criminal and treasonous act against the Russian state - and it has been shown that the Russians can’t even poison someone properly in retaliation. Where is the national threat here? Are you ready to put a rifle in your son’s hand over the issue? This is the case at its very highest against the Russians.

At it’s lowest, it’s just pure Tory lies for electoral advantage. There are a smorgasbord of parties who potentially have the motive and means for an attack like this - particularly a bungled attack, in which the only fatalities have been the Skripal family cat, which starved to death in the hands of the British security services.

Exiled Russian billionaires who have pumped dirty money into the Tory party, are a prime example of those who potentially have the animosity toward Putin, and the means and the money to pull off a bungled attack like this. The money to make or buy such a poison, and the inexperience to make a hash of using it.

But we simply don’t know who did it. And whoever it was, they are not a threat to the British way of life.

Nobody, it seems, has even died from the attack - an attack on an ex-spy who was not even in hiding, but was living and socialising openly on British streets under his own name - let alone is it something to launch nuclear war over.

Wake up to how you’re being manipulated.

[carryfast]

Rjan:

Carryfast:
While what Putin actually did,in issuing two more clear belligerent ‘warnings’ of WMD attack on us,says it all.Just as anyone responding to a Police caution with zb you they’ll blow up the police station and kill everyone in it and the bleedin town that it’s located in and who ever it is who is accusing them,will definitely harm their defence even if they really think that they’ve been,or even have been,nicked by bent coppers trying to fit them up.

The difference is that the Tories are not the international police force. They are not even bent coppers. They are no coppers at all. They are simply bent.

They are the raving lunatic in the community who have made some provocative accusation without a shred of evidence, and having done so the Russian has stepped out his front door, shook his fist, and warned them “come closer and make these accusations without any evidence, without a single witness, and I’ll knock you for six”.

The fact is, our interests as a nation of people are not remotely threatened. Let us take the case at its highest, and suppose both that Russia poisoned Skripal, and that we have more double agents willing to disclose that Putin was responsible.

Well, since no physical evidence exists, the British government have disclosed that such agents must exist. And the Russians have been shown to be bunglers when it comes to assassinations - the resources of an ex-superpower cannot even buy a single decent assassin.

So it has shown that the British are waging a war of infiltration against the Russians - a criminal and treasonous act against the Russian state - and it has been shown that the Russians can’t even poison someone properly in retaliation. Where is the national threat here? Are you ready to put a rifle in your son’s hand over the issue? This is the case at its very highest against the Russians.

At it’s lowest, it’s just pure Tory lies for electoral advantage. There are a smorgasbord of parties who potentially have the motive and means for an attack like this - particularly a bungled attack, in which the only fatalities have been the Skripal family cat, which starved to death in the hands of the British security services.

Exiled Russian billionaires who have pumped dirty money into the Tory party, are a prime example of those who potentially have the animosity toward Putin, and the means and the money to pull off a bungled attack like this. The money to make or buy such a poison, and the inexperience to make a hash of using it.

But we simply don’t know who did it. And whoever it was, they are not a threat to the British way of life.

Nobody, it seems, has even died from the attack - an attack on an ex-spy who was not even in hiding, but was living and socialising openly on British streets under his own name - let alone is it something to launch nuclear war over.

Wake up to how you’re being manipulated.

Like Jinping you’re avin a larf.

It’s obvious that ‘if’ Putin did it then it was meant as a warning shot for the consumption of MI5 and the government not an attempt to wipe out Wiltshire or even necessarily to take out Skripal.

While we haven’t threatened anyone with any WMD attack.The fact remains that Russia stands accused of involvement in such a threat not us and unarguably then answered that accusation with more threats of WMD attack.Not exactly the actions of an innocent party.

While yes we know that NATO has for some reason been winding up the Russians after Russia’s definite act of good faith in vacating its old seized buffer states.Which is where much of the issues originate.Also obviously both sides maintaining an ongoing cold war type espionage regime against each other for some reason after the so called ‘end’ of the cold war.We’ve also got the EU and NATO acting like muppets regarding the sensitive powder keg of Ukraine by not making a clear statement that the EU and NATO has no designs or interest in Ukraine nor in allowing Ukraine to be an EU or NATO member state.Which is more or less the position of Farage as opposed to the EU and NATO.

Remind us where you stand on the issue of the EU’s foreign policy regarding the militarisation of the Russian buffer states and its intentions regarding Ukraine ?.Are you now saying that Farage was right and the EU is wrong ?.While it seems strange why you want to shift all the blame for that onto May when she is just doing as expected in acting like the puppet of the EU that she’s always been and that you’ve said that you support.

While as I said all bets are off in that regard now that Russia has gone full ■■■■■■ in which it’s just a case of those who are prepared to face and return that threat in kind v cowards who haven’t got the bottle and who therefore put us all at risk of what seems like a machiavellian type plan by Russia and China to create a pre text for them and their stinking Korean,Iranian and Korean allies to kick off WW3 against the west and in which Farage’s and Trump’s previous pro Russian anti EU/NATO stance throws a spanner in.On that note it’s you who needs to wake up.Although it’s my bet that you’re just a typical deluded Socialist on the side of China not the West for ideological reasons bearing in mind that it’s Jinping who’s obviously pulling Putin’s strings and who is orchestrating the whole cluster zb for his own ends.

[winseer]

In 2018, with HD cameras for under a ton - we should all adhere to the old argument “If it’s not a clear and present picture on a clear and present alleged danger - then it didn’t happen!”

There’s no footage of perps leaving the scene, no suggestion that M15 protected the Skripals in any way - they were just an ex-asset to be spent, for more than what their now zero value would get them otherwise.

The conclusions were drawn far to quickly - naming Russia as the only suspect, and “highly likely” culprit in less than 72 hours.

Boris failed to use this opportunity to bring down the prime minister, and replace her. He’s been bought already, and was probably only feigning to be her “rival” all along, hence stepping down when someone, anyone happened to cough during the previous leadership campaign.

There’s motives for rubbishing Russia right now, but no motives for Russia rubbishing themselves with such a bungled “assassination attempt”, when we’re talking about a President with a huge mandate, a President who’s Ex-KGB, and the machine since the 70’s that could walk past someone in a stairwell, and have them drop dead from apparent natural causes - no suspicions at all.
What statement or manifesto would Russia want to write - by attacking such a soft target, when there were hundreds of more worthy targets to pursue, IF Russia had a policy of “get rid of all exiled dissidents” if that, indeed - was the agenda here.

Are we ever going to see the Skripals again, or will they now be quietly bumped off, bodies destroyed, and the rest of us told “They’ve emigrated to a remote place on the other side of the world, under new identities”. FFS M15 could and should have done that for them a long time ago, if they were seen to be in that much danger - surely?

My guess is that the government will lean on and/or eliminate as many people as need be to bury this story forever. I can’t see the scandal ever breaking, without not only bringing down the government - but rendering the Conservatives unelectable - even under a new leader. Therefore, any would-be Theresa May successors - are going to “disappear off the radar” right now. Just like Jacob Rees Mogg and Michael Gove seem to have done since the Salisbury story broke.

They won’t know it was all for naught - until the next election, when people like myself who barely kept them in office last year - decide that they’ve had enough ■■■■■■■■ from the ruling party to last a lifetime, and prefer someone like Corbyn wasting someone else’s money other than the British Taxpayer’s as a by then, - viable alternative to the “regular” shenanigans.

Whilst I’m not ready yet to vote Labour for the first time in my life - I can safely say with all available data at present - I won’t be voting Conservative for some time to come. I’m disgusted at all of them now, including people like Gove and Jacob Rees-Mogg for not getting the knife out in what will turn out to be the Tory’s darkest hour. Let’s hope it doesn’t go on to be the nation’s darkest hour since the last one - as well! If the EU get their way with the UK - the UK won’t exist in a decade’s time. We will be “absorbed” the same way Octavian’s Rome “Absorbed” Cleopatra’s Egypt.

[rjan]

Carryfast:

Rjan:
[…] Wake up to how you’re being manipulated.

Like Jinping you’re avin a larf.

It’s obvious that ‘if’ Putin did it then it was meant as a warning shot for the consumption of MI5 and the government not an attempt to wipe out Wiltshire or even necessarily to take out Skripal.

While we haven’t threatened anyone with any WMD attack.The fact remains that Russia stands accused of involvement in such a threat not us and unarguably then answered that accusation with more threats of WMD attack.Not exactly the actions of an innocent party.

I don’t think anything can be inferred about their guilt - one way or the other. Their actions are consistent with that of a non-ally in either case. That they are on telly crowing about the dangers to British spies, laughing at our incompetence, pumping out all sorts of disinformation, rattling the sabre of their nuclear arsenal, it’s all perfectly consistent with their being an innocent party who resent the slander and don’t feel the need to submit to our demands.

Imagine your neighbour, who has many enemies and whom you already dislike immensely, were to make a totally false allegation against you in public. You demand evidence, and you demand witnesses, and your neighbour simply taps his nose and says “I have secret sources” - and of course, we are supposing that any such source is either mistaken, maliciously false, or totally invented. At this point, would you simply submit to your accuser’s demands to let him have a look around your house, to feel the inside of your pockets, to rifle your diary and your mobile phone, and so on? Or would you march around to his house and throw a brick through every single window, and quite possibly throttle him senseless?

Reacting with threats and military force to the making of a false allegation is perfectly consistent with innocence, when the accuser lacks credibility, authority, and legitimacy.

While yes we know that NATO has for some reason been winding up the Russians after Russia’s definite act of good faith in vacating its old seized buffer states.Which is where much of the issues originate.Also obviously both sides maintaining an ongoing cold war type espionage regime against each other for some reason after the so called ‘end’ of the cold war.We’ve also got the EU and NATO acting like muppets regarding the sensitive powder keg of Ukraine by not making a clear statement that the EU and NATO has no designs or interest in Ukraine nor in allowing Ukraine to be an EU or NATO member state.Which is more or less the position of Farage as opposed to the EU and NATO.

Remind us where you stand on the issue of the EU’s foreign policy regarding the militarisation of the Russian buffer states and its intentions regarding Ukraine ?.Are you now saying that Farage was right and the EU is wrong ?.While it seems strange why you want to shift all the blame for that onto May when she is just doing as expected in acting like the puppet of the EU that she’s always been and that you’ve said that you support.

To be honest I know far too little about the fundamental issues at stake with Ukraine to make a useful response, but simply because I support the principle of an EU doesn’t mean I necessarily support every policy. By analogy, criticising Blair’s foreign policy does not necessarily go hand in hand with saying the British state should be smashed to pieces.

While as I said all bets are off in that regard now that Russia has gone full ■■■■■■ in which it’s just a case of those who are prepared to face and return that threat in kind v cowards who haven’t got the bottle and who therefore put us all at risk of what seems like a machiavellian type plan by Russia and China to create a pre text for them and their stinking Korean,Iranian and Korean allies to kick off WW3 against the west and in which Farage’s and Trump’s previous pro Russian anti EU/NATO stance throws a spanner in.On that note it’s you who needs to wake up.Although it’s my bet that you’re just a typical deluded Socialist on the side of China not the West for ideological reasons bearing in mind that it’s Jinping who’s obviously pulling Putin’s strings and who is orchestrating the whole cluster zb for his own ends.

At the end of the day, we are eventually going to have to get used to treating other nations as peers rather than subjects. I’m not on the side of China (or Russia), but ideological wars are won by consistently demonstrating our superiority, not by cheap talk - and the fact is, democracy and liberal freedom in the West is being increasingly corrupted by wealth and power, whereas the Russians have had a dose of neoliberalism that has left their society more corrupt and more unequal than in Soviet times, and the Chinese are consistently doing far better than the West in terms of economic growth.

Incidentally, you do realise that “Jinping” is Xi Jinping’s first name, not his surname? It’s as if you were referring to Mao simply as “Zedong”.

[carryfast]

Rjan:

Carryfast:
Like Jinping you’re avin a larf.

It’s obvious that ‘if’ Putin did it then it was meant as a warning shot for the consumption of MI5 and the government not an attempt to wipe out Wiltshire or even necessarily to take out Skripal.

While we haven’t threatened anyone with any WMD attack.The fact remains that Russia stands accused of involvement in such a threat not us and unarguably then answered that accusation with more threats of WMD attack.Not exactly the actions of an innocent party.

I don’t think anything can be inferred about their guilt - one way or the other. Their actions are consistent with that of a non-ally in either case. That they are on telly crowing about the dangers to British spies, laughing at our incompetence, pumping out all sorts of disinformation, rattling the sabre of their nuclear arsenal, it’s all perfectly consistent with their being an innocent party who resent the slander and don’t feel the need to submit to our demands.

Imagine your neighbour, who has many enemies and whom you already dislike immensely, were to make a totally false allegation against you in public. You demand evidence, and you demand witnesses, and your neighbour simply taps his nose and says “I have secret sources” - and of course, we are supposing that any such source is either mistaken, maliciously false, or totally invented. At this point, would you simply submit to your accuser’s demands to let him have a look around your house, to feel the inside of your pockets, to rifle your diary and your mobile phone, and so on? Or would you march around to his house and throw a brick through every single window, and quite possibly throttle him senseless?

Reacting with threats and military force to the making of a false allegation is perfectly consistent with innocence, when the accuser lacks credibility, authority, and legitimacy.

While yes we know that NATO has for some reason been winding up the Russians after Russia’s definite act of good faith in vacating its old seized buffer states.Which is where much of the issues originate.Also obviously both sides maintaining an ongoing cold war type espionage regime against each other for some reason after the so called ‘end’ of the cold war.We’ve also got the EU and NATO acting like muppets regarding the sensitive powder keg of Ukraine by not making a clear statement that the EU and NATO has no designs or interest in Ukraine nor in allowing Ukraine to be an EU or NATO member state.Which is more or less the position of Farage as opposed to the EU and NATO.

Remind us where you stand on the issue of the EU’s foreign policy regarding the militarisation of the Russian buffer states and its intentions regarding Ukraine ?.Are you now saying that Farage was right and the EU is wrong ?.While it seems strange why you want to shift all the blame for that onto May when she is just doing as expected in acting like the puppet of the EU that she’s always been and that you’ve said that you support.

To be honest I know far too little about the fundamental issues at stake with Ukraine to make a useful response, but simply because I support the principle of an EU doesn’t mean I necessarily support every policy. By analogy, criticising Blair’s foreign policy does not necessarily go hand in hand with saying the British state should be smashed to pieces.

While as I said all bets are off in that regard now that Russia has gone full ■■■■■■ in which it’s just a case of those who are prepared to face and return that threat in kind v cowards who haven’t got the bottle and who therefore put us all at risk of what seems like a machiavellian type plan by Russia and China to create a pre text for them and their stinking Korean,Iranian and Korean allies to kick off WW3 against the west and in which Farage’s and Trump’s previous pro Russian anti EU/NATO stance throws a spanner in.On that note it’s you who needs to wake up.Although it’s my bet that you’re just a typical deluded Socialist on the side of China not the West for ideological reasons bearing in mind that it’s Jinping who’s obviously pulling Putin’s strings and who is orchestrating the whole cluster zb for his own ends.

At the end of the day, we are eventually going to have to get used to treating other nations as peers rather than subjects. I’m not on the side of China (or Russia), but ideological wars are won by consistently demonstrating our superiority, not by cheap talk - and the fact is, democracy and liberal freedom in the West is being increasingly corrupted by wealth and power, whereas the Russians have had a dose of neoliberalism that has left their society more corrupt and more unequal than in Soviet times, and the Chinese are consistently doing far better than the West in terms of economic growth.

Incidentally, you do realise that “Jinping” is Xi Jinping’s first name, not his surname? It’s as if you were referring to Mao simply as “Zedong”.

Firstly to remove any doubt I’m not saying that Russia is guilty,far from it.But as I said threatening us with Nuclear attack in answer to May’s bs posturing doesn’t help Putin’s case one bit.In which case it’s in everyone’s interests to meet that threat in kind regardless just as Kennedy did.Then we negotiate having got that line in the sand established,again just as Kennedy did.

My problem is all the other machiavellian bollox.Which raises all the other questions regarding all the contradictions which I’ve pointed out.With the game having moved on now to the far more dangerous situation of the combined issue of the UK/EU/US having all gone rogue regarding two possible false flag operations.Ironically the lesser of which being the Salisbury incident and the far bigger question of Syria ( again ) with the anti Assad Saudi backed loons controlling that agenda with yet another supposed fake chem attack by Russia/Syria.

On that note I can’t get my head around why Assad and Putin see anything good in allying themselves with Iran.

Nor how the US sees allying the West with those Saudi backed anti Assad loons as being in the West’s interests.

Or why Trump seems to have made a 180 degree U turn in that regard with both him and Farage clearly having previously wanted to give Russia more space and benefit of the doubt regarding everything from stopping EU/NATO posturing in Eastern Europe to keeping well out of the mess in Syria.To the point where I’m increasingly questioning whether Trump is even the real Trump and not an establishment double plant with the real Trump having been given an offer he couldn’t refuse.On that note it would be silly and illogical to believe that the Syria issue is a clear false flag op but not the Salisbury incident.

So let’s get this right.

Trump was elected on a US isolationist ticket long the lines of get the hell out of Syria and don’t fall for the Saudi backed agenda there against Assad.Also that Russia has a justified case regarding NATO/EU posturing on Russia’s borders.Also cut western ties with Saudi.Thereby removing any chance of the west being dragged into a fight on an Eastern axis pre text on Eastern axis terms.

What the zb has moderate Assad got in common with Islamic extremist Iran ?.Or for that matter has even Putin ?.

Exactly where/how does China fit into it all.Bearing in mind that it’s obviously gearing up for a big fight allied with Iran and Russia and Pakistan v the West.

Why has May and Trump left out China in their stupid sabre rattling v Russia?.Assuming a Russian pre text and therefore on Russia’s terms bearing in mind that China has made its support of Russia clear in that regard.

On that note no assuming your warring neighbours scenario and Russia is really the innocent party it’s much more logical for Russia to just call May a liar and walk away.Unless NATO actually makes a move on Russia on the basis of dodgy false flag ops.Bearing in mind that neighbour disputes don’t generally have the potential of going nuclear.While this one has more than just the potential it’s the certainty.

While as it stands May and whoever ‘Trump’ actually is,seem to have lost the plot in all cases assuming that they’ve gone for two idiotic false flag ops in Salisbury and again in Syria to make the case for war with Russia.While if not why would they want to go to war based on an obvious Eastern Axis set up and pre text to drag us into a war on Russia’s terms and of Russia’s choosing.IE logically the innocent party,in either case,wouldn’t allow the guilty party to set the agenda or get dragged into the wrong fight at the wrong time in the wrong place to suit that agenda.

In which case what Russia and China certainly wouldn’t have been expecting was for May and Trump to say we ain’t bovvered because we don’t think that Russia did it.Nor would we have expected Russia to answer false allegations of WMD attack…with the treat of a WMD attack. When surely they’d have just been expected to say we’re innocent and that is sufficient.

As for China.All part of the globalist agenda and its economic growth is only that which China’s corrupt western globalist ( business ) allies have given it at our expense.What did China do with the cash.It didn’t even give it to its workers it turned it into weapons.The question then being for use against who ?.Which leaves the question why is the biased Western media circus pushing war with Russia but saying absolutely nothing about China when China has stated its support of Russia ( and inevitably North Korea,Iran and Pakistan ) ?.Who’s fooling who in all this and why.

[carryfast]

youtube.com/watch?v=hXvTDdbK4BA

Can’t believe that Farage hasn’t raised the question what if it isn’t Trump but a NWO establishment plant double and what if the Syria incident is a false flag ( probable ) which also then by inference makes the Salisbury incident an equally probable false flag.On that note how can anyone possibly believe that ( the real ) Trump could possibly be on the same side as scumbags Blair,Macron and May in all that.

[rjan]

Carryfast:

Rjan:
[…]

Firstly to remove any doubt I’m not saying that Russia is guilty,far from it.But as I said threatening us with Nuclear attack in answer to May’s bs posturing doesn’t help Putin’s case one bit.In which case it’s in everyone’s interests to meet that threat in kind regardless just as Kennedy did.Then we negotiate having got that line in the sand established,again just as Kennedy did.

“Threatening us with nuclear attack” is hyperbole. And my point is that nothing Russia has said or done so far has affected “Putin’s case” on the Skripal poisoning (let’s face it, nobody is arguing that Putin’s innocence is beyond doubt!), whereas the Tories have smeared ■■■■ all over themselves by telling a series of lies and acting in a totally unreasonable way.

We now know that the reason the Tories refused to render a sample of the poison to Russia, is because doing so would have proved sooner that they were lying about having scientific evidence of Russia’s involvement. So too, the Tories have denied the Russians access to the Skripals - again, because doing so would have proved sooner that they were exaggerating the effects of the poisoning.

What I’m keen to emphasise is that we should stop seeing ourselves as akin to a court of law calling upon Putin to answer for himself - we do not stand over Putin with the authority of a court of law, and we have offered no evidence (so far, an actual judge following normal criminal principles would have thrown the allegations out of court as “no case to answer”).

And in the absence of both authority and evidence, the way in which people respond to such allegations is likely to have more to do with their personal temperament and the quality of the pre-existing relationship, than the inherent truth of the allegations, which is why I draw the analogy with a neighbourhood dispute.

If you have a limited number of enemies, many friends, and your political life in the community is simple and secure, it may be reasonable to suppose in most cases that your known enemies are probably responsible for bad things that befall you. But in the international arena where enemies are plenty and political interests complex, and when states and interest groups have significant resources to spend on intrigue, being willing to attack the “obvious” culprit is a political weakness that can be exploited, and you become an unpaid soldier in the service of others who are capable of manipulating you into attacking their enemies.

My problem is all the other machiavellian bollox.Which raises all the other questions regarding all the contradictions which I’ve pointed out.With the game having moved on now to the far more dangerous situation of the combined issue of the UK/EU/US having all gone rogue regarding two possible false flag operations.Ironically the lesser of which being the Salisbury incident and the far bigger question of Syria ( again ) with the anti Assad Saudi backed loons controlling that agenda with yet another supposed fake chem attack by Russia/Syria.

Personally, I doubt the conspiracy is so deep - the purpose of false flag operations is not normally for states to manipulate the public, but for autonomous groups (which may be the intelligence arms of other states, but need not be) to manipulate the bureaucracy of the victim state.

It’s like I said on the moon landing denial subject, that the outcome of conspiracies are rarely assured and can often involve a lot of collateral political damage if they go wrong, and those with vested interests will only stomach so much political risk. The most likely conspirators are usually those whose interests are barely threatened by a negative outcome.

What has been layered on top in this case is that the Tories have sought to exploit the circumstances for their own party political ends, have made a series of unforced errors (that I really don’t think could have been predicted by any organisation planning the poisoning itself), the Tories’ links to Russian dirty money has been exposed, and their transparent manipulation of the public has been rumbled. Russia too has secured a PR coup - not because of the poisoning, but purely because of the way the Tories have handled it subsequently.

In all likelihood, if the Skripal poisoning itself was a conspiracy intended to have larger political effects, it probably hasn’t gone according to the plan of those responsible.

What the zb has moderate Assad got in common with Islamic extremist Iran ?.Or for that matter has even Putin ?.

Perhaps the common denominator is that they have all been victims to Western meddling?

[franglais]

Rjan:
Perhaps the common denominator is that they have all been victims to Western meddling?

Lots of meddling from Western and other sources.?

[carryfast]

Rjan:

Carryfast:
Firstly to remove any doubt I’m not saying that Russia is guilty,far from it.But as I said threatening us with Nuclear attack in answer to May’s bs posturing doesn’t help Putin’s case one bit.In which case it’s in everyone’s interests to meet that threat in kind regardless just as Kennedy did.Then we negotiate having got that line in the sand established,again just as Kennedy did.

“Threatening us with nuclear attack” is hyperbole. And my point is that nothing Russia has said or done so far has affected “Putin’s case” on the Skripal poisoning (let’s face it, nobody is arguing that Putin’s innocence is beyond doubt!), whereas the Tories have smeared [zb] all over themselves by telling a series of lies and acting in a totally unreasonable way.

We now know that the reason the Tories refused to render a sample of the poison to Russia, is because doing so would have proved sooner that they were lying about having scientific evidence of Russia’s involvement. So too, the Tories have denied the Russians access to the Skripals - again, because doing so would have proved sooner that they were exaggerating the effects of the poisoning.

What I’m keen to emphasise is that we should stop seeing ourselves as akin to a court of law calling upon Putin to answer for himself - we do not stand over Putin with the authority of a court of law, and we have offered no evidence (so far, an actual judge following normal criminal principles would have thrown the allegations out of court as “no case to answer”).

And in the absence of both authority and evidence, the way in which people respond to such allegations is likely to have more to do with their personal temperament and the quality of the pre-existing relationship, than the inherent truth of the allegations, which is why I draw the analogy with a neighbourhood dispute.

If you have a limited number of enemies, many friends, and your political life in the community is simple and secure, it may be reasonable to suppose in most cases that your known enemies are probably responsible for bad things that befall you. But in the international arena where enemies are plenty and political interests complex, and when states and interest groups have significant resources to spend on intrigue, being willing to attack the “obvious” culprit is a political weakness that can be exploited, and you become an unpaid soldier in the service of others who are capable of manipulating you into attacking their enemies.

My problem is all the other machiavellian bollox.Which raises all the other questions regarding all the contradictions which I’ve pointed out.With the game having moved on now to the far more dangerous situation of the combined issue of the UK/EU/US having all gone rogue regarding two possible false flag operations.Ironically the lesser of which being the Salisbury incident and the far bigger question of Syria ( again ) with the anti Assad Saudi backed loons controlling that agenda with yet another supposed fake chem attack by Russia/Syria.

Personally, I doubt the conspiracy is so deep - the purpose of false flag operations is not normally for states to manipulate the public, but for autonomous groups (which may be the intelligence arms of other states, but need not be) to manipulate the bureaucracy of the victim state.

It’s like I said on the moon landing denial subject, that the outcome of conspiracies are rarely assured and can often involve a lot of collateral political damage if they go wrong, and those with vested interests will only stomach so much political risk. The most likely conspirators are usually those whose interests are barely threatened by a negative outcome.

What has been layered on top in this case is that the Tories have sought to exploit the circumstances for their own party political ends, have made a series of unforced errors (that I really don’t think could have been predicted by any organisation planning the poisoning itself), the Tories’ links to Russian dirty money has been exposed, and their transparent manipulation of the public has been rumbled. Russia too has secured a PR coup - not because of the poisoning, but purely because of the way the Tories have handled it subsequently.

In all likelihood, if the Skripal poisoning itself was a conspiracy intended to have larger political effects, it probably hasn’t gone according to the plan of those responsible.

What the zb has moderate Assad got in common with Islamic extremist Iran ?.Or for that matter has even Putin ?.

Perhaps the common denominator is that they have all been victims to Western meddling?

Firstly Putin definitely answered May’s Blairite call of WMD’s with the reference to its nuclear power status.That’s not hyperbole that’s a clear threat along the lines we’re innocent of threatening you with WMD’s and if you don’t shut up we’ll nuke you.IE the contradiction between the plea of innocence,regarding threatening us with WMD’s,while also issuing the threat of its nuclear arsenal is too much of a contradiction.While in either case May has at best made a pointless gesture assuming that she wasn’t up to returning the same threat in kind and then negotiating Russia’s obvious grievances from that line.Or at worse she’s dragging us into a fight with Russia,on Russia’s provocation and therefore Russia’s pretext and Russia’s terms.Either way like ‘Trump’ ( CIA/Obama/Hilary plant double ? ) May and BoJo are dangerous idiots.

As for the Iran question it’s obvious that Iran was a much better place under pre Islamic revolution western influence than the Islamic despots running the place since.With Assad having far more in common with the moderate Shah’s regime than the present Iranian Islamic mess.

On that note there are some massive question’s remaining.

What has Saudi got in common with western values and why would Russia and Assad find any common ground with Islamic revolutionary Iran.

Why did Russia put up such a fight against Islam in Afghanistan and Chechnya while allying itself with it in the case of the Arab Israeli war and now in the case of Iran.

Why does Israel seem to think that Saudi is now good but Iran is bad.

Why is NATO/the US so keen on needlessly provoking Russia in Eastern Europe.From the militarisation of the old buffer states to the ridiculous expansionist policy regarding Ukraine.

I’d suggest that the answer as to why we’re heading into a needless fight,can be found in the answer to those glaring contradictions.

As for ‘Trump’ v Putin the US is obviously acting totally opposite to the democratic mandate that he was given regarding foreign policy to the point where the contradiction and U turn is so unbelievable as to it being difficult to believe that it’s really actually Trump calling for it.

As it stands it looks like the ( real ? ) Trump/Farage vote has more in common with the Corbyn vote on all this than muppet May and her Blairite followers,albeit for different reasons.In,unlike the Corbyn vote,not being ideologically pacifist appeasers.Just that it doesn’t see the case for being dragged into WW3 either on Putin’s terms nor May’s stupid,dodgy,false flag Blairite type reasoning.