andy_s:
What’s the situation if the wagons are sometimes shunted about in a smallish yard with no card in by the loaders etc? Obviously not whacking up a great mileage but wondered if dvsa will give you grief at a roadside check on the tacho unit?
I doubt they care about the odd couple of k’s here and there, but it’s hard to explain away anything more than that.
Our units get moved around the yard without cards, and nothing was said when I got a tug a few months back.
(The officer got me to place his control card in the head unit, so I assume he checked that…)
A few Mondays ago I was down for a 6am start but went in at about half five to put my quilt etc into the motor ready for the week, as it was ■■■■■■■ down I didn’t fancy carrying it across the yard so drove the unit about 400 metres (still within our yard) without the card in, put my gear in the wagon, put the card in and booked on at six. Less than a week later the office were on my case about driving without the card in and how it was unacceptable. I suppose that was them marking my card. Or not as this case may be!
I guess different firms have different policies, and some like to keep their ■■■■■■■ in line more than others!
At mine it’s hard to say who was moving the unit, as the fitters move them around as needed, and us night guys hook up the tankers ready for the day shift, and we never bother changing the cards over to do 50m’s or so. The head units are downloaded monthly, and I’ve never heard the guy who does it say anything about it…
being scottish and living now in northern ireland,then on analogue cards,id have a set for the uk mainland,and a set for driving ireland north and shouth…when asked about the hundreds of missing miles then…its not my truck.i dont know or care after i ship it across on the ferry and take my time off…ask the owner.ive never ever used my correct name on a uk eire ferry yet apart from the old norsemerchant …between vosa in uk,and vosa n.i then if the boss would eventually get interrogated,all the cards vanish,and its a 1 hit fine for non producing. thats mostly how it works for the more entrepreneuring compnies. on digicards,its different on digicards as would mostly be running in ireland on the magnet…the only trouble with that is,that every time i go for a kip, by the time i waken up,the trucks facing north.
dieseldog999:
mostly be running in ireland on the magnet…the only trouble with that is,that every time i go for a kip, by the time i waken up,the trucks facing north.
JaxDemon:
They’d be fired at my place instantly for that. They don’t [zb] about.
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A lot of companies would do the same.
Depends on what happens , mine was deemed too be gross misconduct / instant dismissal , but after giving a statement over what happened too ops manager and hr viewing it , they deemed it not to be .
Even vosa officer said make sure this isn’t just on your head . ,
cav551:
That subject has been covered several times to which I’m sure someone will be able to post links. In short the first thing to do is contact your company and explain the situation, a plan to get you home should develop. The overriding consideration is that you do NOT pull the card because that is falsifying records, which is a much more serious offence than running over permitted hours.
It’s not falsifying records, its failure to keep records. Falsifying records is using a different name, date, location or winding the clock on. In which case you’re better to not have a card in, as failure to keep records is a single offence, where as the others can stack up
Mine says , 1x knowingly makes a false record ( analogue or digital ) .
cav551:
That subject has been covered several times to which I’m sure someone will be able to post links. In short the first thing to do is contact your company and explain the situation, a plan to get you home should develop. The overriding consideration is that you do NOT pull the card because that is falsifying records, which is a much more serious offence than running over permitted hours.
It’s not falsifying records, its failure to keep records. Falsifying records is using a different name, date, location or winding the clock on. In which case you’re better to not have a card in, as failure to keep records is a single offence, where as the others can stack up
Mine says , 1x knowingly makes a false record ( analogue or digital ) .
cav551:
That subject has been covered several times to which I’m sure someone will be able to post links. In short the first thing to do is contact your company and explain the situation, a plan to get you home should develop. The overriding consideration is that you do NOT pull the card because that is falsifying records, which is a much more serious offence than running over permitted hours.
It’s not falsifying records, its failure to keep records. Falsifying records is using a different name, date, location or winding the clock on. In which case you’re better to not have a card in, as failure to keep records is a single offence, where as the others can stack up
Mine says , 1x knowingly makes a false record ( analogue or digital ) .
And what did you actually do?
9 mins according too solicitor( prosecuting ) with no card in at end of shift , 15 mins shirt on daily rest , was parked up for 13 hrs ( 5 my choice ) for not enough daily , charge says 1x charge , so not sure if there just charging me with 9 mins without card in or if there clumping the 2 together and calling it 1x charge , all will be revealed tomorrow I guess
Did you try and do anything to hide what you had done? Because if you just removed the card, that’s failing to make a record. You can’t falsify a record if you aren’t keeping one. The only falsifying you’ve done that I can see, is have 8 hrs 45 minutes off, and trying to make it look like 9 hrs by removing the card
andy_s:
What’s the situation if the wagons are sometimes shunted about in a smallish yard with no card in by the loaders etc? Obviously not whacking up a great mileage but wondered if dvsa will give you grief at a roadside check on the tacho unit?
I believe that companies are granted an “unallocated mileage allowance” to allow for shunting around yards. I’m not sure if it has to be asked for nor how large it is, but I’m led to believe it’s not a huge amount.
So you mean if missing mileage is found but it’s not over whatever limit is set for this purpose then it won’t be investigated further, but if there is missing mileage and it’s over the allowance then they will come digging deeper?
Thats my understanding. I reckon it’s a bit more complicated than that though.
mrginge:
OK, I’m guessing now you left you are thinking of making a phone call to the DVSA?
If they download the tacho head they will figure it out.
No im keeping well out of it, im just curious of how they are getting away with it as it seems its being going on a while.
They will get away with it until they are caught at a checkpoint and it seems that you are very very unlucky if you get stopped at one, my last pull by vosa or the ministry back then was the late 90s, obviously the company is either turning a blind eye or are ignorant to the practice, as long as this isn’t under instruction by your employer and they have not asked you to do it I would not worry about it.
i’ve worked at a place where this may have been going on but never been asked to do the same, so I assume that it is the driver thinking he is a hero because he can do the job quicker than anyone else, but in reality he is a mug because he was on a salary and was not getting rewarded financially for it.
9 mins over and 15 short of daily rest. Obviously VOSA think its worth all the cost of prosecuting someone for this but in reality its totally pathetic. Pointing out the little misdemeanor would have sufficed but no doubt its some jobsworth box ticker pushing for some kind of retribution
AndrewG:
9 mins over and 15 short of daily rest. Obviously VOSA think its worth all the cost of prosecuting someone for this but in reality its totally pathetic. Pointing out the little misdemeanor would have sufficed but no doubt its some jobsworth box ticker pushing for some kind of retribution
What dozy hasn’t told us, is if this case is focusing purely on him.
Or whether he’s just the sideshow in a bigger case against an employer.
OVLOV JAY:
Did you try and do anything to hide what you had done? Because if you just removed the card, that’s failing to make a record. You can’t falsify a record if you aren’t keeping one. The only falsifying you’ve done that I can see, is have 8 hrs 45 minutes off, and trying to make it look like 9 hrs by removing the card
Producing a record that is not true/accurate is falsification. Failing to make a record when one is required is also falsification.
Removing card and continuing is falsification with intent.
OVLOV JAY:
Did you try and do anything to hide what you had done? Because if you just removed the card, that’s failing to make a record. You can’t falsify a record if you aren’t keeping one. The only falsifying you’ve done that I can see, is have 8 hrs 45 minutes off, and trying to make it look like 9 hrs by removing the card
Producing a record that is not true/accurate is falsification. Failing to make a record when one is required is also falsification.
Removing card and continuing is falsification with intent.
Altering a record would be fraud
Then how did two of the tuffnells drivers get prosecuted for failing to keep records, and the other was prosecuted for one count of failing to keep records and 6 of falsifying records? I think there’s more to dozy’s case than he is willing to tell at this time
AndrewG:
9 mins over and 15 short of daily rest. Obviously VOSA think its worth all the cost of prosecuting someone for this but in reality its totally pathetic. Pointing out the little misdemeanor would have sufficed but no doubt its some jobsworth box ticker pushing for some kind of retribution
My thoughts exactly.
Its hardly one hitting it back from Milan. things go wrong and we’re all human. Seems petty and the type of thing I’d expect from snivveling clypes. Oh hang on…
Unless dozy isn’t telling us quite the full story.
OVLOV JAY:
Did you try and do anything to hide what you had done? Because if you just removed the card, that’s failing to make a record. You can’t falsify a record if you aren’t keeping one. The only falsifying you’ve done that I can see, is have 8 hrs 45 minutes off, and trying to make it look like 9 hrs by removing the card
Producing a record that is not true/accurate is falsification. Failing to make a record when one is required is also falsification.
Removing card and continuing is falsification with intent.
Altering a record would be fraud
Then how did two of the tuffnells drivers get prosecuted for failing to keep records, and the other was prosecuted for one count of failing to keep records and 6 of falsifying records? I think there’s more to dozy’s case than he is willing to tell at this time
It seems this would be multiple offences caused by the same action. The driver falsified AND failed to keep/make them. It may be one was obviously a clear case of falsifying (I.e done on purpose) but others were more just didn’t make records but not to hide anything.
I guess it all depends what evidence was given. Dozy’ case is clear falsification. He removed his card to hide his actions.
That particular Tuffnells case was odd because it went to a crown court. Drivers normally go to Magistrates. My DVSA pal tells me it was a newsworthy case - apparently.
Rowley010:
What’s the final outcome for you then dozy or have you not got that far yet?
The case is tomorrow rowley , I’d like too think that would be it , but my understanding is tomorrow is a fine of up too £2500 , then I may/ may not have too go before traffic commissioner too explain my actions , my understanding is suspension / revoke lisense but I’m not sure of that .
Shep knows his stuff so maybe he can say how it all proceeds ,
OVLOV JAY:
Did you try and do anything to hide what you had done? Because if you just removed the card, that’s failing to make a record. You can’t falsify a record if you aren’t keeping one. The only falsifying you’ve done that I can see, is have 8 hrs 45 minutes off, and trying to make it look like 9 hrs by removing the card
Producing a record that is not true/accurate is falsification. Failing to make a record when one is required is also falsification.
Removing card and continuing is falsification with intent.
Altering a record would be fraud
Then how did two of the tuffnells drivers get prosecuted for failing to keep records, and the other was prosecuted for one count of failing to keep records and 6 of falsifying records? I think there’s more to dozy’s case than he is willing to tell at this time
It seems this would be multiple offences caused by the same action. The driver falsified AND failed to keep/make them. It may be one was obviously a clear case of falsifying (I.e done on purpose) but others were more just didn’t make records but not to hide anything.
I guess it all depends what evidence was given. Dozy’ case is clear falsification. He removed his card to hide his actions.
That particular Tuffnells case was odd because it went to a crown court. Drivers normally go to Magistrates. My DVSA pal tells me it was a newsworthy case - apparently.
That was what I thought, that the multiple prosecutions were for a single offence. Multiple branches of the same tree in effect. A bit like going one minute over a 15, which means going over your time, inadequate rest, and then adds together driving time for the two days, meaning that one minute leads to 3 prosecutions, without any wtd infringements. Where as the other 2 both got single prosecutions for failing to keep a record. I’d put my weeks wages on them doing the same as dozy, pulling the card on their hours, while the other fella probably didn’t make it in time on one occasion. Which makes me think dozy has left some sort of paper trail. Especially as he wasn’t caught red handed
