People finally coming to their senses?

[winseer]

Juddian:
The next election might be interesting, one wonders if the single party with red and blue badges that is Labour and Tory (both left leaning in their current forms) will still be the default tribal votes for people who still cling to the laughable notion that Labour are representative of the working class and Tories having Conservative ideals , neither party fulfils either of those roles.

Sweden have just voted for their own self destruction once again, which is barely believable with what’s happening there, and the chances are we’ll do exactly the same.

I’d like to think the electorate will punish severely the death of democracy as this Brexit farce is proving, but sadly going by the memory span of the average voter and how so many can be bought with money promised (borrowed) in the names of others (millions yet to be born) to repay, i fear we’ll revert en mass to the tribal two dead parties once more, and once more expect a different outcome.

Yes. It was a shame about Sweden. A Socialist Party being called “The Right-Wing Victors”… FFS I’ve never heard of a party with “socialist” in it’s name being callled ANYTHING “RIght” before!

The real party of the Right - Alternativ for Sverige - won no bloody seats!

As you say - “Sweden have voted for their own self-destruction.”

With their low population, it is easy to see that Sweden will now be the first country in Europe to have a Sharia Majority - possibly in the next five years, rather than at some distant point in the future, that doesn’t even seem to worry Conservatives right now.

That makes me laugh about the Left in this country:

Once Militant Islam gets it’s majority HERE - do you honestly think they will treat Labour Infidels any different from Right Wing Infidels?

They former “allies” in being accepted and totally trojaned into the UK - will turn on them the moment they “don’t need Labour support” any longer.
By that point - it will be too late for the rest of us, of course.

If only the Labour Party had a “Islamophobic” wing, rather than their current “Anti Semitic” branch?

[muckles]

muckles:
And now though you agree we joined in 1973, you seem to believe that the 1975 Referendum was part of a Conservative policy to see how it went and then allow the people to decide. The Consevatives didn’t want a referendum, they were quite happy we’d joined snd didn’t want a looming threat to our continued membership, they said as much in their 1974 manifestos.
Many in the Labour leadership were happy as well, but they faced so much opposition to EEC membership from notable senior party members such as Tony Benn and Eric Heffer and from the Unions they had to hold a referendum at the very least or fade massive problems.

So without the election of a Labour Goverment there would have never been a referendum at that time.

Winseer:
It is a shame that Wilson was able to win the election by being “Not the Tories” rather than on a ticket to turn over Heath’s taking us into the common market in 1973 without bloody well asking the public first! If Labour had been behind in the polls across winter 1973, then I would imagine that Labour might have been stimulated to have made “taking us back out again” their policy, rather than being won-over by the IMF-style argument “If you’re in - you can borrow your way out of your money problems!” Yeh right. That worked well in the late 70’s under Callaghan - didn’t it?

Lots of things might have been better or worse if they happened another way, but it didn’t happen that way, so what’s the point on going on about it?

Winseer:
We still got pumped by the both sides of Parliament to return a “Yes” vote though. Nothing much changed there then.

Social Media was partly responsible in 2016 for the successful Leave campaign. Otherwise, we would have all brought into the £9m leaflet drop, and would have probably voted in a similar pattern to the 1975 referendum all over again.

I think you’ll find becuase of the divisions in the Labour Party, most of the Unions and many MPs and some Cabinet members being totally opposed to EEC membership, the Labour Party Leadership had to allow its MP’s and Members of Cabinet to campaign for either side, hence the Benn/ Jenkins debate.

All the poster shows is that the Conservative party were in favour of EEC membership during the referendum.

The turnout wasn’t that great and the “In” campaign only got around 43% of the eligible vote, but won a majority, the establishment media was mostly owned by wealthy Consrvative supporters, they had a great deal of say on what they published and how they spun the debate.

[franglais]

muckles:
As for proper debate, the level of debate was far better than we got in 2016, just look on You Tube for the debate between Tony Benn and Roy Jenkins, not a 5 minutes of sound bites, but proper debate. And although young at the time, probably a similar age to you, I remember it taking up much of people’s time, I remember the posters and my parents and their friends talking about it.

muckles:
Continual referendums aren’t really a good way of running Country, although there are arguments for a lot more grass roots representation, if we’d had that we might not be in this position now, it would also play into the idea many have that the establishment will keep having a vote until they get the answer they want or they can rig it.
And also we’ve had a General Election since the referendum, with Brexit fresh in people’s minds the one party which has stood on a platform of overturning the referendum result and staying in the EU got a drubbing.

Juddian:
The next election might be interesting, one wonders if the single party with red and blue badges that is Labour and Tory

I’d like to think the electorate will punish severely the death of democracy as this Brexit farce is proving, but sadly going by the memory span of the average voter and how so many can be bought with money promised (borrowed) in the names of others (millions yet to be born) to repay, i fear we’ll revert en mass to the tribal two dead parties once more, and once more expect a different outcome.

So is the current system broken?
Time for proportional representation?
Would that raise the level of debate? or are we stuck with 30second sound bites?

Or is the EU question so emotive that it was and will continue to be divisive?
Is there any outcome, from here where we are , that will give us a good route out?
I blame Cameron a lot for his half-arsed idea of a referendum to gain a few votes from UKIP in order to win power and all that followed, but in truth, maybe he just bought the inevitable referendum forward.

[winseer]

We’ll end up with PR by the back door anyways - if this country now splits into six unelectable parties trying to form impossible coalitions like Germany took months to do at the last election…

“First past the Post” is supposed to be a “Winner takes all” approach.

With PR - if you are a party of the Right and finish second or even first in an election, but without that (now impossible to get) majority - then you get sidelined by all the other minor parties ganging up on you, and forming a coalition of the losers, rather than involve any perceived Right Wing party, such as happened in Holland with Geert Wilders.

It is worth mentioning however that Geert Wilders, like Marine Le Pen - are SELF-FUNDED, hence why they bloody well ain’t going quietly into the night!

Wilders finished second in the Dutch election - only to be completely left out of the new coalition government, as expected.
There might have been a bit of a debate about the electoral system, had Wilders’ Party finished FIRST - and STILL not been involved in the next government - but that scneario has yet to be achieved, let alone played out as yet.

Meanwhile, the people of France are seriously having second thoughts about “Pro Austerity” Macron. A lot of people voted for Macron, because they were told (the usual) that Le Pen is “Hitler’s secret Daughter” blah blah blah… They must be crying in their Stella Artois, with all these nasty-to-workers reforms he is now pushing through.

What did Le Pen want to do that was considered so “Hitler-Like?” Well it wasn’t to have “Socialist” in her Political Party’s name - that’s for sure!
A crack down on criminals, in particular - criminal migrants.
With the way Paris is these days - the people might just be warming to Le Pen’s Hard Line on these blighters now.

Paris is a Sh*thole

[muckles]

Franglais:
So is the current system broken?
Time for proportional representation?
Would that raise the level of debate? or are we stuck with 30second sound bites?

Or is the EU question so emotive that it was and will continue to be divisive?
Is there any outcome, from here where we are , that will give us a good route out?
I blame Cameron a lot for his half-arsed idea of a referendum to gain a few votes from UKIP in order to win power and all that followed, but in truth, maybe he just bought the inevitable referendum forward.

The current system doesn’t seem to represent the people who vote, but its not just a UK problem, seems to be a problem in most countries that have had reasonably stable regimes for the last few decades. People don’t take an interest in politics, few take an active part, voting drops off and to climb the greasy pole to the top of politics needs influential friends and money, those the provide this are paid back before the voters.

The problem with trying to fix this is it will take major upheavals, probably lead to major unrest, economic collapse.

PR is used in several countries, it does benefit smaller parties in getting members into which ever version of parliament the country uses, I believe under a PR system UKIP might have got something like 13 seats in the 2015 election. As for the argument that a small party could hold the power, well that’s happened both in 2010 with the Lib Dems and now with the DUP, also under the present system its quite possible for a party to have a majority in parliament, forcing their agenda through with only around 30% of the vote.
However under the present system we have a direct representative for each of us, that is lost under PR with representatives being picked from a party list, it would also mean party rebels wouldn’t get in, those like Denis Skinner would be sidelined for somebody who toes the party line, I believe Germany uses a hybrid systems, so you vote for your direct representative and also a PR vote, meaning those with minority views get represented.

Judging by the posts on here the EU is by far the most emotive issue on this forum, its great that people are so passionate about it, and social media and the internet in general is great for airing these views, but it does seem to polarize opinion, with people staying within the own groups and selecting what they read and view on the subject, dismissing any other opinion as wrong and false.

[franglais]

muckles:

Franglais:
So is the current system broken?
Time for proportional representation?
Would that raise the level of debate? or are we stuck with 30second sound bites?

Or is the EU question so emotive that it was and will continue to be divisive?
Is there any outcome, from here where we are , that will give us a good route out?
I blame Cameron a lot for his half-arsed idea of a referendum to gain a few votes from UKIP in order to win power and all that followed, but in truth, maybe he just bought the inevitable referendum forward.

The current system doesn’t seem to represent the people who vote, but its not just a UK problem, seems to be a problem in most countries that have had reasonably stable regimes for the last few decades. People don’t take an interest in politics, few take an active part, voting drops off and to climb the greasy pole to the top of politics needs influential friends and money, those the provide this are paid back before the voters.

The problem with trying to fix this is it will take major upheavals, probably lead to major unrest, economic collapse.

PR is used in several countries, it does benefit smaller parties in getting members into which ever version of parliament the country uses, I believe under a PR system UKIP might have got something like 13 seats in the 2015 election. As for the argument that a small party could hold the power, well that’s happened both in 2010 with the Lib Dems and now with the DUP, also under the present system its quite possible for a party to have a majority in parliament, forcing their agenda through with only around 30% of the vote.
However under the present system we have a direct representative for each of us, that is lost under PR with representatives being picked from a party list, it would also mean party rebels wouldn’t get in, those like Denis Skinner would be sidelined for somebody who toes the party line, I believe Germany uses a hybrid systems, so you vote for your direct representative and also a PR vote, meaning those with minority views get represented.

Judging by the posts on here the EU is by far the most emotive issue on this forum, its great that people are so passionate about it, and social media and the internet in general is great for airing these views, but it does seem to polarize opinion, with people staying within the own groups and selecting what they read and view on the subject, dismissing any other opinion as wrong and false.

I really can’t disagree with anything you’ve said there.
I too think our system of Gov is creaking more loudly than before, but see no viable alternative at the moment.
For me, although it seems not you, I think the EU system works…sort of OK-ish… and am reasonably happy to accept it.

I agree that modern media seems to encourage clustering of views. Those of a similar view see only reports and talk to same minded others.
I listen to the much maligned BBC a lot. About half of the views and opinions want me to “throw the radio through the window”* but I continue to listen. I hope to be able to learn a bit about views and even become a little more tolerant of them. Choosing to listen only to similar views can only make us more insular and less tolerant. That way eventually could lead to totalitarian extremes, intolerance, and everything we as a free country should be against surely?
OK, sounds a bit melodramatic at the moment, but it is a slippery path.

*I’m not really so angry an individual!

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

[winseer]

muckles:

Franglais:
So is the current system broken?
Time for proportional representation?
Would that raise the level of debate? or are we stuck with 30second sound bites?

Or is the EU question so emotive that it was and will continue to be divisive?
Is there any outcome, from here where we are , that will give us a good route out?
I blame Cameron a lot for his half-arsed idea of a referendum to gain a few votes from UKIP in order to win power and all that followed, but in truth, maybe he just bought the inevitable referendum forward.

The current system doesn’t seem to represent the people who vote, but its not just a UK problem, seems to be a problem in most countries that have had reasonably stable regimes for the last few decades. People don’t take an interest in politics, few take an active part, voting drops off and to climb the greasy pole to the top of politics needs influential friends and money, those the provide this are paid back before the voters.

The problem with trying to fix this is it will take major upheavals, probably lead to major unrest, economic collapse.

PR is used in several countries, it does benefit smaller parties in getting members into which ever version of parliament the country uses, I believe under a PR system UKIP might have got something like 13 seats in the 2015 election. As for the argument that a small party could hold the power, well that’s happened both in 2010 with the Lib Dems and now with the DUP, also under the present system its quite possible for a party to have a majority in parliament, forcing their agenda through with only around 30% of the vote.
However under the present system we have a direct representative for each of us, that is lost under PR with representatives being picked from a party list, it would also mean party rebels wouldn’t get in, those like Denis Skinner would be sidelined for somebody who toes the party line, I believe Germany uses a hybrid systems, so you vote for your direct representative and also a PR vote, meaning those with minority views get represented.

Judging by the posts on here the EU is by far the most emotive issue on this forum, its great that people are so passionate about it, and social media and the internet in general is great for airing these views, but it does seem to polarize opinion, with people staying within the own groups and selecting what they read and view on the subject, dismissing any other opinion as wrong and false.

I don’t see why “economic collapse” should happen. Collapse happens in any financial environment from entire countries down to household budgets - because one both doesn’t have enough money coming in (for whatever reason) and the household then borrows, rather than embarks on it’s own personal austerity plan, like giving up holidays, smoking, going out etc etc.
I’ve managed to get by for the past 8 years on a single, and at times “sporradic” income - because my household went without when the money wasn’t there. When it IS there, we can have a few treats again, like we have over the past summer. I don’t borrow money to buy wasting assets like cars with, nor use a credit card at all. To avoid economic collapse, the population needs to tighten it’s collective belt - but not in a nasty way as the politicians would have it - by cutting essential public services, and then wondering why people are moaning about being first skint and NOW out of work/facing redundancy as WELL.
My solution to that in households - is “Strategic Debt Default” when you lose a job without a fat payoff, as most of us losing our jobs will probably be facing these days.
Funny how even the Hard Left are not advocating “Strategic Debt Default” as a policy push-out though■■? It surprises me the same as Labour choosing a decade ago to bail out the much-hated temples of capitalism - THE BANKS - rather than letting as many fail as needed to, and then using the QE money to refund the savers who lost their shirts.

btw. UKIP with 4m votes in 2015 would have got about 82 seats with their 12.6% share of the vote. The SNP polling around 4.7% would have got about 30 seats. Instead, UKIP got NONE and the SNP surged to 56 seats.

Interestingly though, even if UKIP had got those 82 seats - the Tories 36.8% poll would have given them 239 seats - which would not been enough to put them over the line. Could a coalition have been done with Tory 239 +UKIP 82 + DUP 4 seats (they would have got under PR) … Nope. That is still a total of 325 - one seat short! …Perhaps an indy to get them one notch over the line■■?

To win a majority in a PR election - you need over 50% of the popular vote. That’s HARD when winners of outright majorities were polling mid-30’s to mid 40’s percentages…

When was the last time any party in this country got over 50% of the popular vote■■? I think the closest to come to it (with a single party’s tally) was Clement Atlee’s Labour win in 1945, polling 48.1% of the popular vote…

In any case… NO way should we ever countenence the “Alternative Vote” system in this country. Putting your choices down in order to highest and lowest preference? - That would mean for most voters here for instance… 1st LABOUR 2nd LIBDEM third TORY or for natural “Right” voters… 1st TORY 2nd LIBDEM 3rd LABOUR…
Which means… the LIBDEMS get to form every government until the next “regime change” revolution!!

No bloody thanks. I didn’t want that total turd even when I was voting Libdem in 2010!

The German Hybrid system perhaps helps Merkel to hang on, despite her poll flagging dramatically. It takes a lot to wipe out a party in Germany… However - now that AfD have gone from 0 to 94 seats in one single election - that system is going to keep them in place for YEARS to come! Anything that continues to go wrong in Germany at this time, is seen as Merkel and now Schulz’ fault, with AfD safely as “Official Opposition” - with no need to do anything at all - except wait… Oh for sure - the mainstream can engineer scandals designed to whittle away the AfD support - but it has never been as hard to get away with “Casual Career Politician Lies” - as it is NOW.

The EU project is not just dying - it is falling over and sinking into the swamp as well…
Keep an eye on Viktor Orban now. He’s got a thumping majority, and the EU are trying to push him around…
Soros might want to get a bit worried too - he is a total pariah in Hungary already!

[muckles]

Franglais:

muckles:
The current system doesn’t seem to represent the people who vote, but its not just a UK problem, seems to be a problem in most countries that have had reasonably stable regimes for the last few decades. People don’t take an interest in politics, few take an active part, voting drops off and to climb the greasy pole to the top of politics needs influential friends and money, those the provide this are paid back before the voters.

The problem with trying to fix this is it will take major upheavals, probably lead to major unrest, economic collapse.

PR is used in several countries, it does benefit smaller parties in getting members into which ever version of parliament the country uses, I believe under a PR system UKIP might have got something like 13 seats in the 2015 election. As for the argument that a small party could hold the power, well that’s happened both in 2010 with the Lib Dems and now with the DUP, also under the present system its quite possible for a party to have a majority in parliament, forcing their agenda through with only around 30% of the vote.
However under the present system we have a direct representative for each of us, that is lost under PR with representatives being picked from a party list, it would also mean party rebels wouldn’t get in, those like Denis Skinner would be sidelined for somebody who toes the party line, I believe Germany uses a hybrid systems, so you vote for your direct representative and also a PR vote, meaning those with minority views get represented.

Judging by the posts on here the EU is by far the most emotive issue on this forum, its great that people are so passionate about it, and social media and the internet in general is great for airing these views, but it does seem to polarize opinion, with people staying within the own groups and selecting what they read and view on the subject, dismissing any other opinion as wrong and false.

I really can’t disagree with anything you’ve said there.
I too think our system of Gov is creaking more loudly than before, but see no viable alternative at the moment.
For me, although it seems not you, I think the EU system works…sort of OK-ish… and am reasonably happy to accept it.

I agree that modern media seems to encourage clustering of views. Those of a similar view see only reports and talk to same minded others.
I listen to the much maligned BBC a lot. About half of the views and opinions want me to “throw the radio through the window”* but I continue to listen. I hope to be able to learn a bit about views and even become a little more tolerant of them. Choosing to listen only to similar views can only make us more insular and less tolerant. That way eventually could lead to totalitarian extremes, intolerance, and everything we as a free country should be against surely?
OK, sounds a bit melodramatic at the moment, but it is a slippery path.

*I’m not really so angry an individual!

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

It’s not that I think the EU is worse or better than our government or other European governments or US administration recent past and present, it’s the whole system that is the problem for me, in the last few decades we’ve seen our wages stagnate in real terms and in some cases at face value, we’ve seen jobs downgraded to peace work similar to how many worked in the Victorian era and this is sold to us as progress, you’re self employed you’re a business owner, you have a stake in your job.

Multi national companies have more power than those elected by the people, they can ride rough shod over national tax regimes, governments seem pleased when they negotiated a tax deal with them, it’s the wrong way round and the tax avoidance in the richest countries is nothing compared to the money these multi national take from the poorest countries, through tax avoidance and privatisation forced on them by organisations like the IMF, World Bank and WTO, it’s many times more than all the aid money from governments and NGO’s that goes the other way.

The rights we’ve got weren’t given to us by a benevolent elite, they were fought for and I think eventually people will have to fight again and those with the power and wealth are not going to give it up easily, they’ll use everything they can from giving us a few scraps from the top table, to divide and conquer and eventually all out war.

[winseer]

I wonder if Social Media and the Internet combined - has given every single voter - more power than they could possibly dream of, let along imagine.
What’s truly interesting about this new-found power though - is that it is a shared platform currently between the Tech Billionaire, and of course the Techies that actually understand how the internet and social media actually work!

I snigger when I see our current shower of MPs struggling to manage their Iphones, ditter away with their two-finger typing, and have to employ actual staff to “handle their Email inboxes”…

Imagine where we would be if we had message boards like this one - but the moderators were actually a collection of MPs in the same area, such as a country or large city? A message board run like a GP surgery? FFS A lot of MPs already run what they call “Surgeries” already - so why not have a proper public formum of one?

Imagine how IN touch those MPs would be…

How many of us, meanwhile - have yet to meet, or even see across a room - their local MP, or any other MP come to that?

The sooner we get IP-verified voting - the better!

The day will come when “The electorate will be asked to vote every five minutes” rather than every five years.
The only votes we seem to be pushed to make - are the ones like “Who’s next to be booted from the big brudder house”?
Well. There’s a charge for voting on that, I believe, so I guess they want as many people to “vote” as possible.
It is a shame there cannot be some kind of financial aspect to voting in Referendums and General Elections… If you’re an illegal, black market racketeer, prisoner currently doing time, tax evader, fugitive, or just some insane hermit - then why SHOULD you get a vote, get to warm a seat in a GP’s waiting room, or make any difference to future policies of ANY political party - IF you can’t afford a £1 charge to vote?

Hey! - British Public! Get some SKIN in the game, if you want your vote to truly make a difference!

At least “none of the above” - saves you a quid that way! (and the councils paying for printing out ballot papers - get their costs back, if you pay your quid, - only to spoil your ballot paper!)

[beetlejuice]

Thankfully it is looking like no deal.How pathetically have the EU dictactators dealth with us is 1 factor why i want out now .What a shambles May is making of her self .

[winseer]

They EU are betting the ranch on May still being a loyal Remainer, grasping at the meaty EU pension on offer if she manages to swing a second referendum, which would then be rigged…

Maybe we’ve ALL got May wrong here? - She might be about to pull the biggest political stroke - this side of the War!

Fingers crossed, and have faith!

[xichrisxi]

Goarrnnn Theresa!!!..

All this remainers should probabaly check this link…tenor.com/0jLv.gif
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[muckles]

xichrisxi:
Goarrnnn Theresa!!!..

All this remainers should probabaly check this link…tenor.com/0jLv.gif
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Or a PM saying what her next audience want to hear, as she’s about to face her harshest critics, her own party at the Conservative Party Conference?

[winseer]

…Imagine what everyone would think of May - if she goes to Blackpool having just pulled the plug on the EU money flow to Brussels?

In other words, "Brexit completed six months ahead of schedule, justified by it becoming obvious that the EU were NEVER going to do a deal ANY deal, even their own…

[manalishi]

Am I alone in thinking the whole shebang is little more than a divide and rule project anyway?I mean the ptb upper strata of,say ten thousand or so, who call the shots in todays world need to be pretty inventive in keeping the 7 or so billion of us in line.Divide and rule seems plausible.There’s no way in hell we’ll disconnect from the Brussels cancer,but the rancour and discord that is at large today across the land,appropo Brexit,must be darn useful to these satanic ■■■■■.

[winseer]

Juddian:
How odd that these polls (maybe staffed by people seeking a certain result?) always seem to know who to ask.

We have a strong union where i work, Unite, and it’s virtually unanimous the union members are Brexiteers…and odd how the non union members (who have no trouble pocketing the pay rises we as the union negotiate every year) are mostly remainers, a cynical chap could come to the conclusion it’s the ethos of something for nothing

And the Union is not the political commissar or the suits at the top, the Union is the working and paying shop floor members at each branch.

Why on Earth are the current Union leadership, Labour Leadership, and Parliamentary Labour Party - so overwealmingly in favour of Remain, at any point, let alone this late in the day?

[carryfast]

Winseer:
Why on Earth are the current Union leadership, Labour Leadership, and Parliamentary Labour Party - so overwealmingly in favour of Remain, at any point, let alone this late in the day?

It’s nothing new ever since those like Callaghan and Jenkins hijacked the party agenda and it sidelined people like Benn etc and even when the Labour Party was majority for Leave.

[winseer]

…It’s not just that plenty of the higher echelons of Remainers are Liberal Elites and Champagne Socialists - but they’ve managed to keep the ordinary working class Remainers in tow as well?!

Every time I try to talk to a remainer its “Drop Brexit” this, or “Its not too late for us to forgive you for coming to your senses” that, and “I’m not worthy…”

…And those miserable Strasbourg Accords… They’re sooo depressing!

Now knock it off!

[carryfast]

Winseer:
…It’s not just that plenty of the higher echelons of Remainers are Liberal Elites and Champagne Socialists - but they’ve managed to keep the ordinary working class Remainers in tow as well?!

Every time I try to talk to a remainer its “Drop Brexit” this, or “Its not too late for us to forgive you for coming to your senses” that, and “I’m not worthy…”

…And those miserable Strasbourg Accords… They’re sooo depressing!

Now knock it off!

0

They aren’t ‘remainers’ it’s time to call them what they really are being ideologically Soviet style Federalists intent on infiltrating and hijacking Europe.On that note I’m also a remainer in the sense of the AfD’s vision of a Confederal Europe here which I’ve been calling for before and since the referendum.

youtube.com/watch?v=CNh3312dTtA 4.20-4.36

[winseer]

Elite: Dangerous - Epic History of The Empire

Federation vs Empire vs Independents…

A story for 2314 and beyond.