Metall load secure

Dipper_Dave:
Bloody hell id have tipped and reloaded before you pair had calculated your friction coefficient witchcraft… :wink:

4 straps on the front one, prolly some nails for luck and 2 straps and nails on the rest, may not even bother with nails to be fair.
Drive to the load, try and avoid crashing into stuff, react defensively to the actions of other road users, expect the unexpected and crack on.

Course the buck stops with the driver so each to their own.

I do know what you mean. I wouldnt get my slide rule out at the side of a load. But I def would have something pulling back on the coils. I doubt theyd move sideways at all in the real world, but wouldnt want them to start sliding forward in the case of an emergency braking situation. Most trailers have got chocolate strength headboards today to save weight. I dont wanna be the crush zone between load and steering wheel !

Franglais:

Dipper_Dave:
Bloody hell id have tipped and reloaded before you pair had calculated your friction coefficient witchcraft… :wink:

4 straps on the front one, prolly some nails for luck and 2 straps and nails on the rest, may not even bother with nails to be fair.
Drive to the load, try and avoid crashing into stuff, react defensively to the actions of other road users, expect the unexpected and crack on.

Course the buck stops with the driver so each to their own.

I do know what you mean. I wouldnt get my slide rule out at the side of a load. But I def would have something pulling back on the coils. I doubt theyd move sideways at all in the real world, but wouldnt want them to start sliding forward in the case of an emergency braking situation. Most trailers have got chocolate strength headboards today to save weight. I dont wanna be the crush zone between load and steering wheel !

Not sure about current standards, but when I last did steel, British Steel (or Corus, or TATA as it is now) insisted on posts in the centre line of the bed, to stop forward motion, and to avoid shooting the centre of the coil due to harsh breaking. Is that still the case?

the nodding donkey:

Franglais:

Dipper_Dave:
Bloody hell id have tipped and reloaded before you pair had calculated your friction coefficient witchcraft… :wink:

4 straps on the front one, prolly some nails for luck and 2 straps and nails on the rest, may not even bother with nails to be fair.
Drive to the load, try and avoid crashing into stuff, react defensively to the actions of other road users, expect the unexpected and crack on.

Course the buck stops with the driver so each to their own.

I do know what you mean. I wouldnt get my slide rule out at the side of a load. But I def would have something pulling back on the coils. I doubt theyd move sideways at all in the real world, but wouldnt want them to start sliding forward in the case of an emergency braking situation. Most trailers have got chocolate strength headboards today to save weight. I dont wanna be the crush zone between load and steering wheel !

Not sure about current standards, but when I last did steel, British Steel (or Corus, or TATA as it is now) insisted on posts in the centre line of the bed, to stop forward motion, and to avoid shooting the centre of the coil due to harsh breaking. Is that still the case?

tatasteeleurope.com/static_f … 5.0_en.pdf

Looks like they do have a lengthy document. I`ve just pasted the link, after a quick look. Not read it yet.

You need to support 100% of the weight for forward movement & 50% of the weight from side ways & backwards movement

Franglais:

shep532:
As shown in the OP picture, that load will easily slide in any direction. This two straps are only providing a downward force of about 700daN (700 kg) to try and stop 4000kg sliding.

That ignores the weight of the load itself doesnt it? Thatll be 4,000kg for a 4,000kg mass.
engineeringtoolbox.com/frict … d_778.html
This shows a co-efficient of friction of 0.25 to 0.5 for wood against wood. Assuming the lower figure youd need a down force (normal reaction) of 16,000kg to stop movement due to friction alone during a 1g stop. 4,000kg from weight leaves 12,000kg down force needed from the straps. What angle do they pass over the load? 45degrees?? Agreed, straps should be attached to the chassis, not just the rave. Chains are better of course, as others have said, but probably not allowed due to load damage risks. My suggestion of using straps to pull load backwards goes some way to addressing this Id say.
Feel free to question and correct my workings and assumptions. Wont be the first time Ive got it all wrong.

For dry wood on wood a coefficient of friction of 0.3 would be about right. Yes it can be higher or lower but 0.3 is a suitable starting point.

The BS EN 12195-1:2010 standard tells us an acceleration force of 0.8 in a Forward direction.

0.8 of payload (single coil) is 3200kg
The friction of 0.3 means the friction will stop 0.3 of payload or 1200kg from sliding
That leaves 2000kg for the straps to stop sliding by applying a downward force

If the strap has an STF of 350daN, using a ‘K’ factor of 1.8 as suggested in the German VDI2700 Standard that’d mean a total pretension of 630daN

with a strap angle of 45 degrees only 0.71 of the total pretension would be applied to the load = 447.3daN

Multiply the coefficient of friction by our total effective pretension - 447.3 x 0.3 = 134.19 daN

Divide our 2000kg by 134.19 = 14.90.

Multiply by a safety factor of 1.25 = 18.63 or 19 straps.

The above is for overstrapping only.

Of course we could BLOCK the load in a forward direction using timber and some 100mm nails. According to the European Code of Practice a single 100mm galvanised nail will stop 0.32t sliding forwards at 0.3 coefficient of friction so that’d need 12 nails through a 50mm timber and with 50mm into the vehicle deck.

Now our timber and nails have stopped it sliding forward we’d still need 8 overstraps to stop the load sliding sideways.

If using spring lashings it’d need two at LC2500daN to the front and one to the rear. These would only stop forwards and backwards so we’d still need 8 overstraps to stop sideways or five 100mm nails and a length of timber and just 2 overstraps to prevent tipping.

No matter which way you look at it - no matter what recognised calculations or standards are used, the picture in the OP shows a load nowhere near secured to withstand potential forces that may act on the load under braking or swerving/cornering.

shep532:

Franglais:

shep532:
As shown in the OP picture, that load will easily slide in any direction. This two straps are only providing a downward force of about 700daN (700 kg) to try and stop 4000kg sliding.

That ignores the weight of the load itself doesnt it? Thatll be 4,000kg for a 4,000kg mass.
engineeringtoolbox.com/frict … d_778.html
This shows a co-efficient of friction of 0.25 to 0.5 for wood against wood. Assuming the lower figure youd need a down force (normal reaction) of 16,000kg to stop movement due to friction alone during a 1g stop. 4,000kg from weight leaves 12,000kg down force needed from the straps. What angle do they pass over the load? 45degrees?? Agreed, straps should be attached to the chassis, not just the rave. Chains are better of course, as others have said, but probably not allowed due to load damage risks. My suggestion of using straps to pull load backwards goes some way to addressing this Id say.
Feel free to question and correct my workings and assumptions. Wont be the first time Ive got it all wrong.

For dry wood on wood a coefficient of friction of 0.3 would be about right. Yes it can be higher or lower but 0.3 is a suitable starting point.

The BS EN 12195-1:2010 standard tells us an acceleration force of 0.8 in a Forward direction.

0.8 of payload (single coil) is 3200kg
The friction of 0.3 means the friction will stop 0.3 of payload or 1200kg from sliding
That leaves 2000kg for the straps to stop sliding by applying a downward force

If the strap has an STF of 350daN, using a ‘K’ factor of 1.8 as suggested in the German VDI2700 Standard that’d mean a total pretension of 630daN

with a strap angle of 45 degrees only 0.71 of the total pretension would be applied to the load = 447.3daN

Multiply the coefficient of friction by our total effective pretension - 447.3 x 0.3 = 134.19 daN

Divide our 2000kg by 134.19 = 14.90.

Multiply by a safety factor of 1.25 = 18.63 or 19 straps.

The above is for overstrapping only.

Of course we could BLOCK the load in a forward direction using timber and some 100mm nails. According to the European Code of Practice a single 100mm galvanised nail will stop 0.32t sliding forwards at 0.3 coefficient of friction so that’d need 12 nails through a 50mm timber and with 50mm into the vehicle deck.

Now our timber and nails have stopped it sliding forward we’d still need 8 overstraps to stop the load sliding sideways.

If using spring lashings it’d need two at LC2500daN to the front and one to the rear. These would only stop forwards and backwards so we’d still need 8 overstraps to stop sideways or five 100mm nails and a length of timber and just 2 overstraps to prevent tipping.

No matter which way you look at it - no matter what recognised calculations or standards are used, the picture in the OP shows a load nowhere near secured to withstand potential forces that may act on the load under braking or swerving/cornering.

Using rubber friction mats, none apparent in the pics tis true, should get the coefficient of friction up around the 1.0 mark shouldnt it? Overstrapping is an inefficient use of straps in this case wed agree I think.
The Tata document is interesting, but I can`t understand why in one section it shows rolls being restrained against moving back, rather than being restrained against braking forces? It also shows rolls similar to those in the picture being loaded “on the roll” rather than in the way shown along the trailer axis.

Dipper_Dave:
Bloody hell id have tipped and reloaded before you pair had calculated your friction coefficient witchcraft… :wink:

4 straps on the front one, prolly some nails for luck and 2 straps and nails on the rest, may not even bother with nails to be fair.
Drive to the load, try and avoid crashing into stuff, react defensively to the actions of other road users, expect the unexpected and crack on.

Course the buck stops with the driver so each to their own.

+1 that would about do it…no need to be caling up stephen hawking… :unamused:

shep532:
No matter which way you look at it - no matter what recognised calculations or standards are used, the picture in the OP shows a load nowhere near secured to withstand potential forces that may act on the load under braking or swerving/cornering.

+1

The bit I don’t get is why not also use chains to help secure it at least in the longitudinal fore and aft direction. :confused: By putting them through the centre then around each end to each side pulling in opposite directions in a sort of X looking from above. Which would obviously also have the effect of helping to stop side ways movement too and at least a lot better than what’s shown there.

Anything involving steel,like re bar at least,I always thought along the lines of chains and argued for them with the guvnor who said ropes is all he thought was needed so ropes is all he provided to use,but luckily in that case no coils.With at least the headboard acting as a token form of fore and aft location in that case.But still a joke in my view as I told him effectively using a bit of string and a dodgy headboard construction to stop around 20 tonnes of steel moving anywhere it felt like going.With straps seeming to me to me to be not a lot better.IE it takes metal to stop metal ?. :bulb:

Edit to add I’m obviously not alone in thinking that there is a place for chains in the securing of metal and that relying on straps is a mugs game. :bulb:

blogsdir.cms.rrcdn.com/10/files/ … -coils.jpg

dccargomall.blogspot.co.uk/2010_ … chive.html

That looks fine, maybe another strap across the middle. Ive taken loads very similar in size and weight on a standard tilt around 6 months back, over 2000kms and it didnt move, only thing extra i did was put some long twin drive screws through the bearers into the trailer floor…

Carryfast:

shep532:
No matter which way you look at it - no matter what recognised calculations or standards are used, the picture in the OP shows a load nowhere near secured to withstand potential forces that may act on the load under braking or swerving/cornering.

+1

The bit I don’t get is why not also use chains to help secure it at least in the longitudinal fore and aft direction. :confused: By putting them through the centre then around each end to each side pulling in opposite directions in a sort of X looking from above. Which would obviously also have the effect of helping to stop side ways movement too and at least a lot better than what’s shown there.

Anything involving steel,like re bar at least,I always thought along the lines of chains and argued for them with the guvnor who said ropes is all he thought was needed so ropes is all he provided to use,but luckily in that case no coils.With at least the headboard acting as a token form of fore and aft location in that case.But still a joke in my view as I told him effectively using a bit of string and a dodgy headboard construction to stop around 20 tonnes of steel moving anywhere it felt like going.With straps seeming to me to me to be not a lot better.IE it takes metal to stop metal ?. :bulb:

Which is stronger - a chain rated LC5000daN or a webbing strap rated LC5000daN ?

Clearly they are as strong as each other. Of course a webbing can chaff/wear through, but with adequate edge protection it should be fine.

Chains do tend to be of higher capacity than most webbing straps, but you can get 100mm wide webbing that could be LC10,000daN

Carryfast:

shep532:
No matter which way you look at it - no matter what recognised calculations or standards are used, the picture in the OP shows a load nowhere near secured to withstand potential forces that may act on the load under braking or swerving/cornering.

+1

The bit I don’t get is why not also use chains to help secure it at least in the longitudinal fore and aft direction. :confused: By putting them through the centre then around each end to each side pulling in opposite directions in a sort of X looking from above. Which would obviously also have the effect of helping to stop side ways movement too and at least a lot better than what’s shown there.

Anything involving steel,like re bar at least,I always thought along the lines of chains and argued for them with the guvnor who said ropes is all he thought was needed so ropes is all he provided to use,but luckily in that case no coils.With at least the headboard acting as a token form of fore and aft location in that case.But still a joke in my view as I told him effectively using a bit of string and a dodgy headboard construction to stop around 20 tonnes of steel moving anywhere it felt like going.With straps seeming to me to me to be not a lot better.IE it takes metal to stop metal ?. :bulb:

Always good to get input from a theoretical expert. Why not also use chains? Because they won’t let you use chains on coils. And don’t start on and on about rebar and slabs. We are discussing securing coils, not rebar or slabs.

If anybody would bother to read the TATA leaflet, it explains how to secure a coil with three straps. 19 straps to secure a coil… :unamused:

"the nodding donkey:
Always good to get input from a theoretical expert. Why not also use chains? Because they won’t let you use chains on coils. And don’t start on and on about rebar and slabs. We are discussing securing coils, not rebar or slabs.

If anybody would bother to read the TATA leaflet, it explains how to secure a coil with three straps. 19 straps to secure a coil… :unamused:

Quite so. With use of rubber friction matting and passing straps thro coil, not merely overstrapping. Did you see the query I tried to make about the use of restraints against the coils moving back, instead of against braking forces? Seems wrong to me, or is that me misreading summat?

the nodding donkey:

Carryfast:

shep532:
No matter which way you look at it - no matter what recognised calculations or standards are used, the picture in the OP shows a load nowhere near secured to withstand potential forces that may act on the load under braking or swerving/cornering.

+1

The bit I don’t get is why not also use chains to help secure it at least in the longitudinal fore and aft direction. :confused: By putting them through the centre then around each end to each side pulling in opposite directions in a sort of X looking from above. Which would obviously also have the effect of helping to stop side ways movement too and at least a lot better than what’s shown there.

Anything involving steel,like re bar at least,I always thought along the lines of chains and argued for them with the guvnor who said ropes is all he thought was needed so ropes is all he provided to use,but luckily in that case no coils.With at least the headboard acting as a token form of fore and aft location in that case.But still a joke in my view as I told him effectively using a bit of string and a dodgy headboard construction to stop around 20 tonnes of steel moving anywhere it felt like going.With straps seeming to me to me to be not a lot better.IE it takes metal to stop metal ?. :bulb:

Always good to get input from a theoretical expert. Why not also use chains? Because they won’t let you use chains on coils. And don’t start on and on about rebar and slabs. We are discussing securing coils, not rebar or slabs.

If anybody would bother to read the TATA leaflet, it explains how to secure a coil with three straps. 19 straps to secure a coil… :unamused:

Yes - using the overstrap method a very large number of straps are required because it is such an ineffective securing method. .

The Tata document shows spring and loop lashings - far more effective but reliant on capacity of the lashing points.

The OP showed a load overstrapped - therefore that was the information I supplied.

Franglais:
Did you see the query I tried to make about the use of restraints against the coils moving back, instead of against braking forces? Seems wrong to me, or is that me misreading summat?

I can’t see what you refer to - what page?

shep532:
Which is stronger - a chain rated LC5000daN or a webbing strap rated LC5000daN ?

Clearly they are as strong as each other. Of course a webbing can chaff/wear through, but with adequate edge protection it should be fine.

Chains do tend to be of higher capacity than most webbing straps, but you can get 100mm wide webbing that could be LC10,000daN

I’d guess that I’d rather follow the idea of it takes metal to stop metal thanks.Bearing in mind that if the idea of relying on nylon straps to hold steel instead of steel fails it’s the driver/operator who pays the price.Which leaves the question why would a long term specialist steel haulier seem to agree with me and who I’d guess,that like me,would tell any customer who says no chains to do one and let another mug take it instead ?.

the nodding donkey:

Carryfast:

shep532:
No matter which way you look at it - no matter what recognised calculations or standards are used, the picture in the OP shows a load nowhere near secured to withstand potential forces that may act on the load under braking or swerving/cornering.

+1

If anybody would bother to read the TATA leaflet, it explains how to secure a coil with three straps.

Three straps would be all thats needed at the most. By the time some had got the calculator out and law book of physics your’d be down the road tipped and reloaded… :stuck_out_tongue:

the nodding donkey:
Always good to get input from a theoretical expert. Why not also use chains? Because they won’t let you use chains on coils. And don’t start on and on about rebar and slabs. We are discussing securing coils, not rebar or slabs.

If anybody would bother to read the TATA leaflet, it explains how to secure a coil with three straps. 19 straps to secure a coil… :unamused:

I wouldn’t call that a ‘theoretical expert’.I’d call that a long time specialist steel haulier who knows what he’s talking about and what he’s doing.I’d guess on that basis if a customer says no chains he’d say fine get someone else to move it.

On that note did you actually read the article ?.

dccargomall.blogspot.co.uk/2010_ … chive.html

shep532:

Franglais:
Did you see the query I tried to make about the use of restraints against the coils moving back, instead of against braking forces? Seems wrong to me, or is that me misreading summat?

I can’t see what you refer to - what page?

LOAD RESTRAINT GUIDELINE
Wide coil in well
750mm minmum sheet width
2000mm maximum diameter
page 4 of 4.
And having re-read it I see my error. I was looking at the centre and rear rolls, and didn`t notice the use of well boards. My mistake. The straps pull the rolls against the well boards holding the whole system tight.

Ive done ally and steel coils and looking at that , to me doesn’t look safe, regardless of the wooden frames that they are sat in.

My straps would not have been over the top but through the middle. Let me explain the best I can, for each coil.

Me as the driver I would’ve preferred them to have been loaded the other way so that I could secure them in the following manner:
Left hand side of the trailer, from the chassis up through the centre of the coil then back down to the chassis on the same side, tighten the ratchet to take the strain, then repeat on the right hand side of the trailer making sure that you place something to protect the straps, between them and the metal coils. Then fully tighten both ratchets.
What I have done here is ensure that there is a force from both sides to ensure that there will be no side-ward movement of the coils and positioning along rather than across, there will be no forward movement.
Loaded as they are as per the picture, then you should again go through the centre, one of the straps from the left side to the right side of the trailer pulling forward, then a second again through the centre pulling towards the rear. This will stop any forward/rear movement and the fact that the coils are positioned across the trailer there will be no side movement.
The mills that I have loaded at have enforced that this is the way that it must be done, NEVER over the top.