IR35 Changes coming on 6th April

[rjan]

adam277:
I do wonder if this will drive many from the industry.
I guess time will tell but for many being a ltd company driver had a lot of appeal and many had zero intention of driving full time under PAYE.

In the waiting room talks a lot of the drivers also had main jobs such as plumbers, electrians, taxi drivers. So, it worked out well for them.

Well they’ll just have to decide whether they want to be full-time plumbers or full-time drivers, won’t they?

Yet there’s actually nothing to stop the employers hiring PAYE casuals, and ensuring that the take-home is the same as before - which it’ll have to be, otherwise they won’t get any casuals.

Why should their business be subsidised with tax dodges that most others have to pay?

[robbo99]

So I’ve just used up my annual ISA allowance by investing in an OEIC, legally avoiding paying tax on my investment, oh wait a minute that comes under the horrible term of “tax avoidance” yes the definition of tax avoidance is the legal way to reduce ones tax liability. Simple as that. Falling foul of IR35 is NOT illegal. In fact small co’s won’t be affected by IR35 reforms, says it all really…one rule for one and one rule for others.

[conor]

robbo99.:
Falling foul of IR35 is NOT illegal.

Yeah actually it is under the Criminal Finances Act 2017 due to failure to prevent the facilitation of tax evasion. Not only would the worker be liable the agency could be deemed to be facilitating it by turning a blind eye. It’s a strict liability offence with unlimited fines.

Article about it with a familiar scenario.

contractoruk.com/news/00135 … avoid.html

But no doubt you’ll come back and claim it’s a load of rubbish.

[franglais]

Small companies won’t be affected by IR35.
Employees, who seek to evade tax by claiming to be a company, may be.
Someone who flips burgers two days a week, and cleans an office two days a week to make ends meet is not a multi tasking limited company. They are someone with two employers.
Drivers who work for an agency or ten different agencies are not nprmally Ltd Co. They are probably individuals with more than one employer.
There are exceptions, but not as many as agencies might have us believe.

[robbo99]

Conor:

robbo99.:
Falling foul of IR35 is NOT illegal.

Yeah actually it is under the Criminal Finances Act 2017 due to failure to prevent the facilitation of tax evasion. Not only would the worker be liable the agency could be deemed to be facilitating it by turning a blind eye. It’s a strict liability offence with unlimited fines.

Article about it with a familiar scenario.

contractoruk.com/news/00135 … avoid.html

But no doubt you’ll come back and claim it’s a load of rubbish.

I am referring to IR35 due to take place in the private sector, the public sector is totally different and IR35 has been enforced for ages in that sector. Breaches of IR35 in the private sector are NOT illegal now. If they were then all the tax people have not paid the tax man in the private sector would most certainly be recoverable, HMRC are not looking retrospectively at the tax.

Re the link, scenarios are scenarios, I think you can even work that one out. Tax avoidance legal tax evasion prison time.

So as you rightly say I do rubbish your post because I am talking about the private sector reforms due to come in and you have got the wrong end of the stick once again by referring to the public sector, just like chalk and cheese.

Do keep up old boy.

[lazydriver]

One thing for sure, a lot of accountants are about to see their business vastly reduced. Wonder if they can get a retraining package as lorry drivers…

[robbo99]

LazyDriver:
One thing for sure, a lot of accountants are about to see their business vastly reduced. Wonder if they can get a retraining package as lorry drivers…

Watch out for an explosion in dodgy umbrella schemes circumventing the rules. Then watch out years down the line when HMRC might actually take action against said dodgy umbrella schemes landing the blindly led workers with hefty tax bills whilst the umbrella owners walk away to their next dodgy venture.

No different to large corporations paying next to nothing in corpo tax whilst HMRC hounding individual workers with interest charges and penalties for a few quid owing.

[franglais]

robbo99.:

LazyDriver:
One thing for sure, a lot of accountants are about to see their business vastly reduced. Wonder if they can get a retraining package as lorry drivers…

Watch out for an explosion in dodgy umbrella schemes circumventing the rules. Then watch out years down the line when HMRC might actually take action against said dodgy umbrella schemes landing the blindly led workers with hefty tax bills whilst the umbrella owners walk away to their next dodgy venture.

No different to large corporations paying next to nothing in corpo tax whilst HMRC hounding individual workers with interest charges and penalties for a few quid owing.

Will some try to evade their taxes?
Yep, I expect you’re correct.
Will the tax man, sooner or later, catch them?
Yep, I expect you’re correct.
Will some profit by selling their services as advisors/agents/accountants etc.
Yep, I expect you’re correct.

Here is a typical contract on offer:
youtu.be/G_Sy6oiJbEk

[robbo99]

Franglais:

robbo99.:

LazyDriver:
One thing for sure, a lot of accountants are about to see their business vastly reduced. Wonder if they can get a retraining package as lorry drivers…

Watch out for an explosion in dodgy umbrella schemes circumventing the rules. Then watch out years down the line when HMRC might actually take action against said dodgy umbrella schemes landing the blindly led workers with hefty tax bills whilst the umbrella owners walk away to their next dodgy venture.

No different to large corporations paying next to nothing in corpo tax whilst HMRC hounding individual workers with interest charges and penalties for a few quid owing.

Will some try to evade their taxes?
Yep, I expect you’re correct.
Will the tax man, sooner or later, catch them?
Yep, I expect you’re correct.
Will some profit by selling their services as advisors/agents/accountants etc.
Yep, I expect you’re correct.

Here is a typical contract on offer:
youtu.be/G_Sy6oiJbEk

Yep, I suppose making the people that use these schemes look like idiots is one thing, but back in the real world things aren’t as quite obvious as the clip you have posted. Many people were either pushed by agencies or even directly by permanent employers including local councils.

Just on a different angle, it has been found that HMRC have been using contractors whom themselves are using aggressive tax avoidance schemes to reduce their taxes to yes HMRC, the mind boggles, bit like the police employing rapists, murderers and neo Nazis, oh hang on they do!

[conor]

robbo99.:

Conor:

robbo99.:
Falling foul of IR35 is NOT illegal.

Yeah actually it is under the Criminal Finances Act 2017 due to failure to prevent the facilitation of tax evasion. Not only would the worker be liable the agency could be deemed to be facilitating it by turning a blind eye. It’s a strict liability offence with unlimited fines.

I am referring to IR35 due to take place in the private sector, the public sector is totally different and IR35 has been enforced for ages in that sector. Breaches of IR35 in the private sector are NOT illegal now…

Yes they are, I’ve given you the law the breaches are illegal under and I’ve given you a link to a legal company who are talking about private companies. THe Criminal Finances Act applies to private employers. You can choose to continue to bury your head in the sand, stick your fingers in your ears and go “la la la I can’t hear anything it doesn’t affect me” but you’re completely wrong. Will you get caught, nobody knows. The people who offer you work will be the ones who decide whether they’re going to deduct tax and NI off what they pay you though if you stay Ltd, not you.

[robbo99]

Conor:

robbo99.:

Conor:

robbo99.:
Falling foul of IR35 is NOT illegal.

Yeah actually it is under the Criminal Finances Act 2017 due to failure to prevent the facilitation of tax evasion. Not only would the worker be liable the agency could be deemed to be facilitating it by turning a blind eye. It’s a strict liability offence with unlimited fines.

I am referring to IR35 due to take place in the private sector, the public sector is totally different and IR35 has been enforced for ages in that sector. Breaches of IR35 in the private sector are NOT illegal now…

Yes they are, I’ve given you the law the breaches are illegal under and I’ve given you a link to a legal company who are talking about private companies. THe Criminal Finances Act applies to private employers. You can choose to continue to bury your head in the sand, stick your fingers in your ears and go “la la la I can’t hear anything it doesn’t affect me” but you’re completely wrong. Will you get caught, nobody knows. The people who offer you work will be the ones who decide whether they’re going to deduct tax and NI off what they pay you though if you stay Ltd, not you.[/quote

Will you get it in your head that tax avoidance and tax evasion are totally different. Agencies conspiring with companies to evade paying tax is tax evasion, ie illegal. A lorry driver set up as self employed is not breaking the law by breaching IR35 legislation on employment status, ie not illegal. How many times do you need telling. It comes under tax avoidance. The new tax year in a few days time is when the enforcement of IR35 in the private sector takes place.

As for me, I work casual PAYE so who is going to catch me? So you are wrong again.

[conor]

robbo99.:
Will you get it in your head that tax avoidance and tax evasion are totally different. Agencies conspiring with companies to evade paying tax is tax evasion. A lorry driver set up as self employed is not breaking the law by breaching IR35 legislation on employment status, how many times do you need telling. It comes under tax avoidance. The new tax year in a few days time is when the enforcement in the private sector takes place.

I know they’re different things. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax regulations to reduce your tax bill which after 6th of April Ltd drivers, especially those running via an agency, won’t be doing. If you’re in breach of IR35 you are committing tax evasion, you’re breaking the law. A lorry driver setting up as Ltd self employed is breaking the law by breaching IR35. It’s not tax avoidance, it’s tax evasion because HMRC have deemed that a lorry driver who does not have any financial interest in the vehicle he is driving, and therefore is not liable for suffering any losses that it may occur, is not eligible to be treated as self employed and it’s treated as disguised employment which again is illegal. In the case of agency Ltd drivers and IR35 both the agency and the driver are committing offences under the act I posted. There are plenty of websites from tax accountancy firms and employment lawyers that’ll tell you the same as everything I’ve posted. Quite why you think you know better than them I do not know.

And if that still doesn’t keep you happy, even without IR35 many Ltd drivers are committing tax evasion. For example many claim travel expenses when they’re legally not allowed to because HMRC treat the journey from home to the first client and last client to home as ordinary commuting and therefore not claimable even if you’ve registered your home as your company office. Also they’re claiming for 100% of their mobile phones even though legally they can only claim the percentage which is business use which is probably just 5 minutes of the hours per day they use, the majority spent chatting to co-workers, friends and family and the vast majority of data being used to go on Facebook and Netflix/Youtube. Then there’s the meal subsidies they’ll most likely be claiming even though they incur no costs and have no receipts, again that’s not allowed and is tax evasion.

[robbo99]

Conor:

robbo99.:
Will you get it in your head that tax avoidance and tax evasion are totally different. Agencies conspiring with companies to evade paying tax is tax evasion. A lorry driver set up as self employed is not breaking the law by breaching IR35 legislation on employment status, how many times do you need telling. It comes under tax avoidance. The new tax year in a few days time is when the enforcement in the private sector takes place.

I know they’re different things. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax regulations to reduce your tax bill which after 6th of April Ltd drivers, especially those running via an agency, won’t be doing. If you’re in breach of IR35 you are committing tax evasion, you’re breaking the law. A lorry driver setting up as Ltd self employed is breaking the law by breaching IR35. It’s not tax avoidance, it’s tax evasion because HMRC have deemed that a lorry driver who does not have any financial interest in the vehicle he is driving, and therefore is not liable for suffering any losses that it may occur, is not eligible to be treated as self employed and it’s treated as disguised employment which again is illegal. In the case of agency Ltd drivers and IR35 both the agency and the driver are committing offences under the act I posted. There are plenty of websites from tax accountancy firms and employment lawyers that’ll tell you the same as everything I’ve posted. Quite why you think you know better than them I do not know.

So once again, tell me how a lorry driver who’s employment status will be determined by the agency or end client, with the new IR35 changes, will be commiting tax evasion if his employment status is incorrect. Tax avoidance old chap, not illegal

And as for the many thousands of lorry drivers set up as self employed, with no truck and no risk of financial losses committing tax evasion, utter twaddle.

[robbo99]

Conor:

robbo99.:
Will you get it in your head that tax avoidance and tax evasion are totally different. Agencies conspiring with companies to evade paying tax is tax evasion. A lorry driver set up as self employed is not breaking the law by breaching IR35 legislation on employment status, how many times do you need telling. It comes under tax avoidance. The new tax year in a few days time is when the enforcement in the private sector takes place.

I know they’re different things. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax regulations to reduce your tax bill which after 6th of April Ltd drivers, especially those running via an agency, won’t be doing. If you’re in breach of IR35 you are committing tax evasion, you’re breaking the law. A lorry driver setting up as Ltd self employed is breaking the law by breaching IR35. It’s not tax avoidance, it’s tax evasion because HMRC have deemed that a lorry driver who does not have any financial interest in the vehicle he is driving, and therefore is not liable for suffering any losses that it may occur, is not eligible to be treated as self employed and it’s treated as disguised employment which again is illegal. In the case of agency Ltd drivers and IR35 both the agency and the driver are committing offences under the act I posted. There are plenty of websites from tax accountancy firms and employment lawyers that’ll tell you the same as everything I’ve posted. Quite why you think you know better than them I do not know.

And if that still doesn’t keep you happy, even without IR35 many Ltd drivers are committing tax evasion. For example many claim travel expenses when they’re legally not allowed to because HMRC treat the journey from home to the first client and last client to home as ordinary commuting and therefore not claimable even if you’ve registered your home as your company office. Also they’re claiming for 100% of their mobile phones even though legally they can only claim the percentage which is business use which is probably just 5 minutes of the hours per day they use, the majority spent chatting to co-workers, friends and family and the vast majority of data being used to go on Facebook and Netflix/Youtube. Then there’s the meal subsidies they’ll most likely be claiming even though they incur no costs and have no receipts, again that’s not allowed and is tax evasion.

So now you are swinging it from IR35 breaches to something completely different. Tax evasion is a serious crime, do you really believe that drivers expenses and travel claims will warrant a criminal investigation for tax evasion? No, if investigated by HMRC and found to be in the wrong, they will be made to pay the money back with interest added, possiby a penalty but certainly not a tax evasion charge lol

[robbo99]

Conor:

robbo99.:
Will you get it in your head that tax avoidance and tax evasion are totally different. Agencies conspiring with companies to evade paying tax is tax evasion. A lorry driver set up as self employed is not breaking the law by breaching IR35 legislation on employment status, how many times do you need telling. It comes under tax avoidance. The new tax year in a few days time is when the enforcement in the private sector takes place.

I know they’re different things. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax regulations to reduce your tax bill which after 6th of April Ltd drivers, especially those running via an agency, won’t be doing. If you’re in breach of IR35 you are committing tax evasion, you’re breaking the law. A lorry driver setting up as Ltd self employed is breaking the law by breaching IR35. It’s not tax avoidance, it’s tax evasion because HMRC have deemed that a lorry driver who does not have any financial interest in the vehicle he is driving, and therefore is not liable for suffering any losses that it may occur, is not eligible to be treated as self employed and it’s treated as disguised employment which again is illegal. In the case of agency Ltd drivers and IR35 both the agency and the driver are committing offences under the act I posted. There are plenty of websites from tax accountancy firms and employment lawyers that’ll tell you the same as everything I’ve posted. Quite why you think you know better than them I do not know.

And if that still doesn’t keep you happy, even without IR35 many Ltd drivers are committing tax evasion. For example many claim travel expenses when they’re legally not allowed to because HMRC treat the journey from home to the first client and last client to home as ordinary commuting and therefore not claimable even if you’ve registered your home as your company office. Also they’re claiming for 100% of their mobile phones even though legally they can only claim the percentage which is business use which is probably just 5 minutes of the hours per day they use, the majority spent chatting to co-workers, friends and family and the vast majority of data being used to go on Facebook and Netflix/Youtube. Then there’s the meal subsidies they’ll most likely be claiming even though they incur no costs and have no receipts, again that’s not allowed and is tax evasion.

So bring it on old chap, you prove to me that a self employed lorry driver has been charged and found guilty of Tax Evasion or heavily financially penalised for claiming for a butty he didn’t really purchase or while watching Netflix on his or her phone using data claimed for.

A reply would be interesting.

Tax Avoidance legal, I think you get that now, that is after all the posts you have slagged SE drivers over the years as tax avoiders as if it’s a derogatory term. Tax Evasion illegal. Tax Dodger not really appropriate especially when dodging paying tax would be tax avoidance…legal.

As IR35 is NOW, a person’s employment status in the private sector is NOT tax evasion if incorrect.

I’m sure you will spend time googling or maybe a mate of a mate might give you some mickey mouse facts?

As this is a forum for Truck drivers, I would think that the discussion on IR35 would be about how it affects us, not airy fairy links that are not concerned with our IR35 compliance.

Scenario’s or even agencies and big business conspiring to evade tax is hardly the same as a driver’s employment status with IR35.

[conor]

Whole reply removed for personal attack.

[dcpcfml]

[elsa_lad]

Conor:
Whole reply removed for personal attack.

One of Connor famous put downs They do somehow manage to back fire

[robbo99]

Conor:
Whole reply removed for personal attack.

Can’t understand what exactly?? Think it’s the other way around. Game set and match to me.

Do you really think you look big and clever by calling names when you don’t know me from Adam? As I know you I can confidently disclose to others that I can return your various names of nobber, shyster, knuckle dragging ■■■■■■ with the IQ of a cabbage and dribbling clown and ad my own for you, but mine are based on actually knowing a scruffy, lazy, slob who’s only reason to exist is to brown nose because of various inadequacies.

[rjan]

robbo99.:

Conor:
…

As IR35 is NOW, a person’s employment status in the private sector is NOT tax evasion if incorrect.

I don’t think I agree with that analysis.

With “tax avoidance”, no tax is due. With “tax evasion”, the situation is misrepresented to the taxman so that due tax is not paid or demanded.

If the employment status is represented wrongly, and tax is due, then that is quite possibly a case of tax evasion.

I say “possibly” because I’m not aware of the exact legislation off the top of my head which imposes criminal penalties for tax evasion.

But where the employment status is misrepresented intentionally to avoid tax, it’s no different than if an employer refuses to operate a PAYE scheme, declaring without foundation that his workers are all businessmen. That’s criminal tax evasion.