If You Could Vote Again (Brexit)

OUT OF HOURS BULLY'S TRUCKSTOP BAR (INTERACTIVE)
41

robbo99.:

Rjan:

robbo99.:
We voted leave, we are leaving.

Are we? The right-wing Brexit is collapsing under the weight of its own contradictions!

A vote is a vote, it works for all sides. A vote gave us the opportunity to have our say, we said it. A democracy gives it’s citizens the vote, that vote and result should be honoured.

A democracy also informs it’s citizens, and keeps them informed, in good faith. What we’re seeing is not a functioning democracy in action but mostly a conflict playing out between a discredited establishment and revolutionary agitators amongst the radical right, involving a welter of lies and smears on both sides, and with neither side seeking to improve the lives of ordinary people but both being alternative approaches to preserving the power and wealth of the ruling class in the face of popular discontent.

So when a general election comes along, do you think the politicians should allow another general election just because a particular party didn’t get elected? Are you saying politicians act in good faith in a democracy? We are mostly given the mushroom treatment and most of them lie through their back teeth. We elect them on their lies and promises, (all parties) and have to go along with the result. We were given the vote and we voted, we voted to leave the EU.

I partially agree but the referendum was not a general election. We are gonna suffer for at least 15 years. Nobody voted to become poorer and nobody voted to be denied the possibility to get the newest drugs in case of illness, for example.

42

Rjan:

robbo99.:
We voted leave, we are leaving.

Are we? The right-wing Brexit is collapsing under the weight of its own contradictions!

A vote is a vote, it works for all sides. A vote gave us the opportunity to have our say, we said it. A democracy gives it’s citizens the vote, that vote and result should be honoured.

A democracy also informs it’s citizens, and keeps them informed, in good faith. What we’re seeing is not a functioning democracy in action but mostly a conflict playing out between a discredited establishment and revolutionary agitators amongst the radical right, involving a welter of lies and smears on both sides, and with neither side seeking to improve the lives of ordinary people but both being alternative approaches to preserving the power and wealth of the ruling class in the face of popular discontent.

Your bs argument is just putting the 2 of Mogg’s version of Brexit with the 2 of Benn’s,Heffer’s,Shore’s and Hoey’s version.Then supposedly making the 5 of that means let’s stay in the Federal zb pile based on the the idea of the unholy alliance of those on the radical left like yourself who want an EUSSR and the Blairites who see all that as being good for business.

When it’s clear that the Brexit vote is mostly made up of real Labour voters who want Hoey’s version of Brexit not Mogg’s.But definitely not bleedin Blair’s and Corbyn’s idea of staying in the Soviet dictatorship which is actually even worse than Mogg’s idea of Brexit.While it’s obvious that we can’t get the left v right argument over what ‘type’ of Brexit until we’re actually out first.The definition of out meaning the full return of sovereignty in either case.

Nor can we get that argument sorted while we’ve got a bunch of Bolsheviks having infiltrated and hijacked the Labour Party because they know they can’t get into power by standing where they belong on an honest Socialist ticket in the SLP.Nor without their Commy mates within the EUSSR helping them to hijack our country.

On that note it’s getting really tiresome to hear your same ridiculous argument which paints people like Benn/Shore/Heffer and Hoey as supposedly hard right.While you’ve got people like Blair and Major directly on your side.When it’s obviously your lot which is an alliance of the hard left allied with the big business establishment figures like Blair.All with the same aim of enslaving Europe’s working classes under the jackboot of an EUSSR dictatorship and wiping out their self determination as free thinking seperate nation states.

So remind us assuming you’re not allied with Blair then who and what is it about the EU’s leadership that supposedly makes it a more holy and supposedly left wing institution,than Hoey’s vision of Brexit Britain ? and don’t even think of saying that her vision matches that of Corbyn’s bearing in mind her input into the GO campaign.IE the full return of sovereignty is everything and non negotiable then we argue about what type of Brexit from there.What we don’t do is go along with your commy subferfuge of oh look we don’t want Mogg’s version so we must stay in.

43

robbo99.:

Rjan:
[…]

So when a general election comes along, do you think the politicians should allow another general election just because a particular party didn’t get elected? Are you saying politicians act in good faith in a democracy? We are mostly given the mushroom treatment and most of them lie through their back teeth. We elect them on their lies and promises, (all parties) and have to go along with the result. We were given the vote and we voted, we voted to leave the EU.

Frankly, if a general election was conducted on an utterly mendacious manifesto, then yes, a rerun could well be justified.

The legitimacy of a vote comes from the fact that people have made an honest and informed judgment, not merely from the fact of having held a vote, particularly in a country already weakened by so many institutional lies and so little collective engagement beforehand.

And we have already had a GE in which the Tories furthermore lost their majority and have literally bought additional votes to keep them afloat so far. Thankfully it may well be the Northern Ireland question - and the fact that the Northern Irish won’t take a betrayal by the DUP lightly - that has permanently confounded right-wing Brexit.

I agree with you that politicians nowadays are lying incorrigibly, but the answer to that is more democracy, more public participation, and more power of recalls - just like the reforms being made in the Labour party after so many years of Blairism - not an acceptance of their mendacity.

The truth is that we don’t have to go along with their lies at all, as you claim - and if that is all the referendum was about, then why do you think you’re going to do any better under the next lot of liars than you did under the previous lot, if you can’t even summon the indignancy at being lied to and demand an end to it?

That being said, I really don’t think another referendum would produce an appreciably different result at this stage - not only because some people are lying to themselves, but because in a much larger but vaguer sense people are demanding a change to the status quo.

But people had better start getting to grips with precisely what change they want, before they are corralled into the slaughterhouse, and a change foisted upon them of a kind that they definitely did not vote for.

44

Rjan:

robbo99.:

Rjan:
[…]

So when a general election comes along, do you think the politicians should allow another general election just because a particular party didn’t get elected? Are you saying politicians act in good faith in a democracy? We are mostly given the mushroom treatment and most of them lie through their back teeth. We elect them on their lies and promises, (all parties) and have to go along with the result. We were given the vote and we voted, we voted to leave the EU.

Frankly, if a general election was conducted on an utterly mendacious manifesto, then yes, a rerun could well be justified.

The legitimacy of a vote comes from the fact that people have made an honest and informed judgment, not merely from the fact of having held a vote, particularly in a country already weakened by so many institutional lies and so little collective engagement beforehand.

And we have already had a GE in which the Tories furthermore lost their majority and have literally bought additional votes to keep them afloat so far. Thankfully it may well be the Northern Ireland question - and the fact that the Northern Irish won’t take a betrayal by the DUP lightly - that has permanently confounded right-wing Brexit.

I agree with you that politicians nowadays are lying incorrigibly, but the answer to that is more democracy, more public participation, and more power of recalls - just like the reforms being made in the Labour party after so many years of Blairism - not an acceptance of their mendacity.

The truth is that we don’t have to go along with their lies at all, as you claim - and if that is all the referendum was about, then why do you think you’re going to do any better under the next lot of liars than you did under the previous lot, if you can’t even summon the indignancy at being lied to and demand an end to it?

That being said, I really don’t think another referendum would produce an appreciably different result at this stage - not only because some people are lying to themselves, but because in a much larger but vaguer sense people are demanding a change to the status quo.

But people had better start getting to grips with precisely what change they want, before they are corralled into the slaughterhouse, and a change foisted upon them of a kind that they definitely did not vote for.

I think rather than looking at what could or should have been, we are here now. We were given a vote and we voted out. Weak Tories, DUP playing King Maker, Labour chopping and changing and lying politicians, we can’t do a lot about that, it’s been going on since parliament began. Aside from all of that we were given a vote in or out…out won. Lets face it NONE of the politicians know what they are doing now that the majority have given them something to actually do. A lot of people chose not to vote at all even in General Elections simply because politicians lie. There is the old adage, How do you know when a politician is telling a lie…Answer He/She is talking.

45

robbo99.:

Rjan:

robbo99.:

Rjan:
[…]

So when a general election comes along, do you think the politicians should allow another general election just because a particular party didn’t get elected? Are you saying politicians act in good faith in a democracy? We are mostly given the mushroom treatment and most of them lie through their back teeth. We elect them on their lies and promises, (all parties) and have to go along with the result. We were given the vote and we voted, we voted to leave the EU.

Frankly, if a general election was conducted on an utterly mendacious manifesto, then yes, a rerun could well be justified.

The legitimacy of a vote comes from the fact that people have made an honest and informed judgment, not merely from the fact of having held a vote, particularly in a country already weakened by so many institutional lies and so little collective engagement beforehand.

And we have already had a GE in which the Tories furthermore lost their majority and have literally bought additional votes to keep them afloat so far. Thankfully it may well be the Northern Ireland question - and the fact that the Northern Irish won’t take a betrayal by the DUP lightly - that has permanently confounded right-wing Brexit.

I agree with you that politicians nowadays are lying incorrigibly, but the answer to that is more democracy, more public participation, and more power of recalls - just like the reforms being made in the Labour party after so many years of Blairism - not an acceptance of their mendacity.

The truth is that we don’t have to go along with their lies at all, as you claim - and if that is all the referendum was about, then why do you think you’re going to do any better under the next lot of liars than you did under the previous lot, if you can’t even summon the indignancy at being lied to and demand an end to it?

That being said, I really don’t think another referendum would produce an appreciably different result at this stage - not only because some people are lying to themselves, but because in a much larger but vaguer sense people are demanding a change to the status quo.

But people had better start getting to grips with precisely what change they want, before they are corralled into the slaughterhouse, and a change foisted upon them of a kind that they definitely did not vote for.

I think rather than looking at what could or should have been, we are here now. We were given a vote and we voted out. Weak Tories, DUP playing King Maker, Labour chopping and changing and lying politicians, we can’t do a lot about that, it’s been going on since parliament began. Aside from all of that we were given a vote in or out…out won. Lets face it NONE of the politicians know what they are doing now that the majority have given them something to actually do. A lot of people chose not to vote at all even in General Elections simply because politicians lie. There is the old adage, How do you know when a politician is telling a lie…Answer He/She is talking.

You’re talking to a dyed in the wool remainer Robbo, he thinks he can talk us out of the referendum RESULT!!! :grimacing:

46

Voted Remain last time…nothing I’ve seen or heard since has suggested that Brexit is going to be anything other than an absolute disaster for the UK.

All the Brexiters acting outraged because the EU won’t let us leave on terms that favour us and not them…did you really expect anything else? Did you really think that we were going to submit a list of our demands and the EU simply roll over and grant them?

Our kids future sold down the river by the xenophobic, the elderly and the gullible.

47

DonutUK:
Voted Remain last time…nothing I’ve seen or heard since has suggested that Brexit is going to be anything other than an absolute disaster for the UK.

All the Brexiters acting outraged because the EU won’t let us leave on terms that favour us and not them…did you really expect anything else? Did you really think that we were going to submit a list of our demands and the EU simply roll over and grant them?

Our kids future sold down the river by the xenophobic, the elderly and the gullible.

I think you believe too much of what Auntie Beeb says…grown adults expect compromise…nobody in this world gets everything they want,not even the President of the USA,ask Stormy! Brexiteers got the main thing they wanted, an OUT RESULT!!! :grimacing:

48

TiredAndEmotional:

DonutUK:
Voted Remain last time…nothing I’ve seen or heard since has suggested that Brexit is going to be anything other than an absolute disaster for the UK.

All the Brexiters acting outraged because the EU won’t let us leave on terms that favour us and not them…did you really expect anything else? Did you really think that we were going to submit a list of our demands and the EU simply roll over and grant them?

Our kids future sold down the river by the xenophobic, the elderly and the gullible.

I think you believe too much of what Auntie Beeb says…grown adults expect compromise…nobody in this world gets everything they want,not even the President of the USA,ask Stormy! Brexiteers got the main thing they wanted, an OUT RESULT!!! :grimacing:

So what you are saying is that Brexiteers didn’t care about the consequences they just wanted the out result?

49

DonutUK:

TiredAndEmotional:

DonutUK:
Voted Remain last time…nothing I’ve seen or heard since has suggested that Brexit is going to be anything other than an absolute disaster for the UK.

All the Brexiters acting outraged because the EU won’t let us leave on terms that favour us and not them…did you really expect anything else? Did you really think that we were going to submit a list of our demands and the EU simply roll over and grant them?

Our kids future sold down the river by the xenophobic, the elderly and the gullible.

I think you believe too much of what Auntie Beeb says…grown adults expect compromise…nobody in this world gets everything they want,not even the President of the USA,ask Stormy! Brexiteers got the main thing they wanted, an OUT RESULT!!! :grimacing:

So what you are saying is that Brexiteers didn’t care about the consequences they just wanted the out result?

Now you know I’m not saying that but you have to take the first step first! :stuck_out_tongue: Lie back and enjoy the ride ■■■■■, you might actually like it! :grimacing:

50

Tempest:
I would vote in. The economy is collapsing. This is not project fear, this is Brexit reality. If you own a business and you are having to cut back due to Brexit , will you lay off those workers you know caused this by voting Leave first ? My answer is YES P45 for Brexiteers. Sorry but I don’t wanna pay for your mistakes. It would be unfair.

Love it the way Brexit is blamed for every ■■■■ thing that goes wrong now from The economy to the job market to…well anything ‘‘they’’ can think of to further their propaganda campaign that Goebells would be proud of.
The thing is people actually believe it. :laughing: :laughing:

51

Thing is TiredAndEmotional I actually like listening to the remoaners and how they justify a second referendum :smiley: There were promises and predictions on both sides of the vote yet all we heard about was UKIP’s pledge on the funding of the NHS. The scaremongers of Osbourne and that waste of space Carney, ie the so called independant Governor of the BOE would make us believe we were all doomed. The vote went against the establishment and the remoaners act like small kids threatening to take their bat and ball away unless they get their way.

52

DonutUK:
Voted Remain last time…nothing I’ve seen or heard since has suggested that Brexit is going to be anything other than an absolute disaster for the UK.

All the Brexiters acting outraged because the EU won’t let us leave on terms that favour us and not them…did you really expect anything else? Did you really think that we were going to submit a list of our demands and the EU simply roll over and grant them?

Our kids future sold down the river by the xenophobic, the elderly and the gullible.

More like trying to save them from the Soviet style nightmare which you obviously support.You gave your real motives away with the idea of ‘won’t let us leave’ ( without a fight or at least sanctions ? ).Spoken like any true Soviet Stalinist.

Since when was defending the right of your own country to exist,as opposed to being a puppet state of a centralised dictatorship run by stasi stooges like Merkel and other tin pot dictatorial Federalist scum like Juncker etc,xenophobic.

As for terms it seems strange why anyone would be happy with any deal which subjects their own country to the blackmail of foreign rule and net contributions for ‘trade’,let alone when the so called ‘trade’ is the privilege of being a net importer of EU good and services.No surprise that such treachery would include trying to divide the nation along the lines of age in an attempt to save their diabolical plans.This treasonous zb should have been nipped in the bud in 1973 by impeaching and locking up Heath for treason as an example to his followers.

53

Keep calling us remoaners. You will get a nice surprise in no time. :grimacing:

54

robbo99.:
Thing is TiredAndEmotional I actually like listening to the remoaners and how they justify a second referendum :smiley: There were promises and predictions on both sides of the vote yet all we heard about was UKIP’s pledge on the funding of the NHS. The scaremongers of Osbourne and that waste of space Carney, ie the so called independant Governor of the BOE would make us believe we were all doomed. The vote went against the establishment and the remoaners act like small kids threatening to take their bat and ball away unless they get their way.

It’s interesting that the imported guv’nor of The Bank of England is pro remain whilst his home grown predecessor is firmly in the Brexit camp!

55

You are in denial guys, Brexiteers versus the rest of the World , who is gonna win :question:

56

Tempest:
You are in denial guys, Brexiteers versus the rest of the World , who is gonna win :question:

Not even all of the 27 other members are ecstatically happy with the monster that is the EU.

57

Tempest:
You are in denial guys, Brexiteers versus the rest of the World , who is gonna win :question:

In the long run…The UK.
For eg…One argument pro EU is the grants and the funding we will miss that they provide, but I think we’ll manage without that money, because we will no longer have to put in the Billions in order to obtain the Millions that they provide. :bulb:

58

Tempest:
You are in denial guys, Brexiteers versus the rest of the World , who is gonna win :question:

Turkey, not an EU member, took £80 million from the EU to transfer Transit production from Southampton to Turkey. Not a single Ford vehicle is built in the UK now although Toyota and others seem happy here and are investing in the UK still. Your thoughts on that?

59

robroy:

Tempest:
You are in denial guys, Brexiteers versus the rest of the World , who is gonna win :question:

In the long run…The UK.
For eg…One argument pro EU is the grants and the funding we will miss that they provide, but I think we’ll manage without that money, because we will no longer have to put in the Billions in order to obtain the Millions that they provide. :bulb:

Just a little bit of FACT about money…

£350 million a week equates to roughly £18 billion a year which is what Leave campaign would have you believe we paid into the EU coffers…

The reaiity was we actually pay £8.6 billion per year into the EU…less than half that was claimed by Leave.

Now the interesting bit…for every 1% of GDP that we lose as a result of the referendum that is roughly £10 billion in lost tax revenue to the public ■■■■■…and over the last 5 quarters we have seen a confirmed loss of 0.9% of GDP…which is £9 billion in lost revenue…

So before we have even left the EU, it has cost us more than we will save by not paying in…so as that trend continues, we will continue to lose more than we save.

Where do you think the Government is going to look to make up that shortfall?

60

DonutUK:
Just a little bit of FACT about money…

£350 million a week equates to roughly £18 billion a year which is what Leave campaign would have you believe we paid into the EU coffers…

The reaiity was we actually pay £8.6 billion per year into the EU…less than half that was claimed by Leave.

Now the interesting bit…for every 1% of GDP that we lose as a result of the referendum that is roughly £10 billion in lost tax revenue to the public ■■■■■…and over the last 5 quarters we have seen a confirmed loss of 0.9% of GDP…which is £9 billion in lost revenue…

So before we have even left the EU, it has cost us more than we will save by not paying in…so as that trend continues, we will continue to lose more than we save.

Where do you think the Government is going to look to make up that shortfall?

We can take any so called ‘facts’ put up by the treacherous remain campaign with the same pinch of salt as Heath’s bs about us supposedly just joining a Common Market not a Federal Europe.

So even by the treasonous parliament’s own figures we add its unbelievable version of the net contribution figure to the EU trade deficit = ?.Which with Germany alone stands at more than $ 50 billion with us being their 3 rd most important export market and us not even being in their top ten for imports being behind Belgium. :unamused:

The biggest collapse in UK GDP has been and continues to be owing to the transfer of industry from UK to Europe with an unsustainable trade deficit to match.