Wot, MP’s who’ve done a days work like Dennis Skinner and who support the British working class? or patriotic Conservatives?
It’ll never catch on.
I voted leave and don’t give a toss if we get “no deal.” I don’t work or holiday abroad and I deliver food so regardless of the outcome I’ve still got guaranteed work. TBH I haven’t heard any brexit news in ages, I avoid it.
The EU has again blocked the publication of MEPs’ expenses, with Euro-judges this Tuesday quashing a three-year battle by journalists to get the documents published after the European Parliament itself previously refused to hand over any details. The judges ruled that the Parliament was right not to publish the documents as it would enable the MEPs to be individually identified.
MEPs will still be able to spend their annual €50,000 ‘General Expenditure Allowance’ – which they receive on top of their €100,000 annual salary – without providing any proof of how the money of how the money was spent.
So if the documents can’t be published because they would identify which MEPs are presently pouring your money down the drain, surely the EU will at least be making them available to the public in redacted form? Ah, the European Court has blocked this too on the grounds that there wouldn’t be “any useful effect” in publishing the documents – because they did not identify individual MEPs!
Obviously these judges are in the same position and don’t want their expenses publicised - and so they won’t establish a precedent that inevitably will apply to themselves and all the overpaid Commission bureaucrats helping themselves to as much gravy as possible. So much for transparency and accountability. MEP’s being bribed with taxpayers’ money to support the EU Commission line on things and ashamed to reveal that they just pocket tax free 50k euros.
A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the carrier of the plague.
A phrase that is always associated with the Roman orator Cicero but was actually penned by the American novelist Taylor Caldwell in his book A Pillar of Iron. Strange how, fifty years later, this clearly defines the UK parliament of today.
Stanley Knife:
jamdoms:
When your faced with the choice of the current right wing junta . . .When the left spout this right wing junta nonsense all they do is highlight how far to the left they have gone.
At the moment we have a hard left Momentum led Labour Party and a weak wet liberal Conservative Party.
If only there were some actual labour MP’s within Labour and conservative MP’s within the Conservatives . . .
There probably are - but will they eventually do the decent thing - and cross the floor to UKIP?
I have often thought that the reason both Cameron and May spent sooo much effort in making sure UKIP got no presence in Westminster - was to make sure there was simply no place to cross the floor TO for any other would-be “Rebels”…?
Stanley Knife:
A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the carrier of the plague.A phrase that is always associated with the Roman orator Cicero but was actually penned by the American novelist Taylor Caldwell in his book A Pillar of Iron. Strange how, fifty years later, this clearly defines the UK parliament of today.
What a filthy business “Politics” has been for what could be called the “Entire Civilized era”… Maybe our species is stuck in a rut, “unable to evolve further” - until the age-old evils of the very basest form of “Human Nature” - are swept aside once and for all by mass-thinking going in a new direction entirely.
We’ve tried “Rule with Religion”, “Rule without Religion”, “Rule with Military”, and “Rule without military” etc etc.
The one thing we have yet to try - is “Rule without poverty” though.
I don’t believe “Poverty” is a symptom of a broken society so much… It is more like “Poverty” IS what breaks society.
Find someone who hates another - and the chances are, that the “another” has something the first person wants - but can’t get.
It is envy, greed, avarice, and all the other “deadly sins” rolled into one.
Poverty isn’t “Dispossession”. There have not been many rebels in history who were rich, but got disenfranchised, say like Robin Hood.
There are PLENTY of people though, who do naff all, don’t work, get educated in useless subjects - and then grow up dreaming of taking something away from another who’s worked hard for what they EARNED over the ensuing time period.
“Filter Down” - hasn’t worked.
It is time for a new political system entirely then, one that is based upon what powers of getting things done as individuals people have got, rather than any “point scoring” system based on Wealth, number of FB friends, or other irrelevant rubbish.
jamdoms:
muckles:
I don’t know about a Right Wing Junta, the present Tory party leadership would really like to follow the same Neo-liberal globalist economic system that successive UK, US and European governments (including New Labour) have followed for the last few decades, which has seen the gap between the richest and poorest widen, wage stagnation, poorest countries get poorer as more of their wealth and resources fall into the hands of global corporations, backed up by policies from unelected organisations like the WTO and IMF and a global financial collapse, leading to years of austerity and mass un-employment in countries like Greece, Spain and Italy.
I’d like to believe in Corbyn, but I feel he and the present Labour Party are still out of touch with the ordinary working people of this country.So of not Jeremy who then? There is no other party offering an end to the current madness we find our country in.
The Archbishop of Caterbury suggests our system of work and reward is broken, Theresa Mays reply to this is “work harder”
Where have I seen something similar to this reply, could it be “Arbeit macht frei”.
Right Wing Junta indeed…
Why does Corbyn have to have the solution just becuase the others are a shower of ■■■■?
The problems are a global problem, not a national one, even if a Corbyn lead Labour Party were to win an election, the global institutions would make sure any radical plans were rendered ineffectual, in fact he way I understand present EU competition rules he’d find it very difficult to re-nationalise many public services.
I think we’re now at the stage where conventional politics will not change the fundamental problems in the World today, it will take something far more radical than anything Corbyn proposes.
Ultimately, an incoming Corbyn government - wouldn’t have any money to spend on anything.
That gives the choice of “Choosing years more of Austerity” and losing the support of all that voted for him on the spot
or
Accepting the EU’s kind offer of “unlimited funding for a fellow Socialist government’s spending plans” - in exchange for an even tighter grip on the UK and it’s institutions by the EU.
(1) Brexit dropped on the spot.
(2) Law passed branding any party Right of the Libdems - as an “unlawful political organization”. This would include about 50% of the current Conservative Party, who’d be de-selected, and replaced with Chewie Green Liberals.
(3) Contributions to Brussels increased in line with inflation. Pray it is the UK inflation rate, rather than Venuzeula’s inflation rate! Imagine the relief when it is only around 4% UK rate… “Hearts and Minds”…
(4) Westminster stuffed full of newly appointed “EU Compliance Officers” to make sure the house never gets “disorderly” in future.
(5) The number of Westminster MPs reduced from 650 to 600, with 50 seats around the country adjacent to each other “merged”… Seats like Uxbridge being merged with Southhall, so that characters like John McDonnell can win Boris HJohnson’s seat away from him easy peasy.
(6) Future referenda are banned by the EU. Election periods of Council and Westminster “Parliaments” - will be extended from 5 to 10 years.
(7) The pound to be phased out over the remaining years of the current parliament, giving Corbyn & Co 10 years to get it done.
(8) All government employees to be paid in Bitcoin, so any “rebellion” means not only can your pay be stopped, but all your money you’ve been paid so far - can be instantly confiscated retrospectively.
(9) Internet Copyright Act passed. All internet posts to be moderated by parsar software for hate speech - essentially ending Free Speech throughout the entire European continent, not just the EU.
(10) Our intelligence services will concentrate on rooting out any “opposition” for plans 1-9.
(11) The Monarchy will be abolished upon the Queen’s eventual death. The Royals will be given ceremonial roles, such as “guided tours of former palace buildings and grounds” - with a “World Heritage Site” tax being payable to Brussels Coffers for setting this up.
(12) “Hurting people’s feelings” branded as “Terrorism”. Nigel Farage arrested and sent to The Hague charged with “Crimes against Humanity”. Found dead in his cell next morning from an apparent heart attack, small blood spot wiped away from eye area, before coroner attends…
(13) Companies told to fire people “not of the body”. (Must fill a load of forms in, if you are not a card-carrying member of the Labour Party. Must submit to deep background checks, and activate the microphone on your TV, and other devices in your house)
(14) All private citizen debt - flipped over into secured debt upon one’s highest value asset, be that one’s House, flash Car, or plum Job.
(15) Studends told that their debt will be waived - if they sign up for government service, ratting out neighbors and relatives that could possibly be “enemies of the state”.
(16) The UK armed forces phased out, in favour of an EU military that will promptly be sent on adventures in places like East Ukraine (to try and capture the region from Russia) or Syria (to try and capture the area for ISIS from the Kurds)
(17) Huge recruitment drive for the Police. Newly trained officers must be outwardly Liberal, but being inwardly “Ex Broadmoor” stock - would be an advantage. Bi Polar Condition - a must.
(18) A registration system set up to compile a list of persons with an IQ higher than 120. Persons fitting the bill - will be offered recruitment in Government Service, or humane destruction should they “not want to work for the government”.
(19) Religions Banned, except Islam - since that isn’t a Religion.
(20) Food depots put under strict government control. If the public do not comply in a certain area - they do not eat. This has a bigger “controlling” effect on the population - than even Firearms, Revolutions, and Politics!
…Alternatively, we can leave the EU, and kiss all the above stuff goodbye.
Without Britain’s Clout - the EU won’t be able to put much of the above into effect elsewhere.
Understand this folks: There is not much the EU powers won’t do - to STOP Britain leaving the EU.
We’ve not had a sniff of the “more nuclear options” as of yet.
Be afraid. Be VERY afraid! 
There’s already a deal in place in case of remianers last gasp ‘no deal’ project fear scenario, it’s WTO and the United Kingdom has been a WTO member since 1 January 1995, when many remainers left school, and a member of GATT since 1 January 1948 well before most remainers parents were born.
This is what WTO would mean for the UK.
In general our imports would become more expensive for the user/consumer and our exports (especially to the EU, which is 44 % of our total exports) would become less competitive in the export market.
Manufacturing businesses importing components and material and exporting finished products (as most UK manufacturing does) would face an obvious double whammy.
An example being the DAF LF truck…cabs, gearboxes and axles all being imported from the EU (and paying duty on import), and the completed ‘Assembled in Britain’ truck being exported back to the EU (and paying duty on export).
See also British-built Toyota, Nissan, JLR etc etc. All enjoy substantial sales in the EU, and contain many EU-made components.
Difficult to see that continuing, really.
GasGas:
This is what WTO would mean for the UK.In general our imports would become more expensive for the user/consumer and our exports (especially to the EU, which is 44 % of our total exports) would become less competitive in the export market. Why is that? Do we pay a WTO commission that ends up as wasted money that is even more than what we pay the EU at present?
Manufacturing businesses importing components and material and exporting finished products (as most UK manufacturing does) would face an obvious double whammy.
Assuming the pound stays down forever… For all we know, the day of a successful Brexit - sees the biggest rally in the pound for a generation!An example being the DAF LF truck…cabs, gearboxes and axles all being imported from the EU (and paying duty on import), and the completed ‘Assembled in Britain’ truck being exported back to the EU (and paying duty on export). That kind of business - will be the type that either reforms, or closes down. There is no way that Post Brexit Britain will countentence paying the EU any further commissions or tariffs whatsoever. Sell a truck in Britain? - Construct it in Britain then - or sell us completed trucks made overseas, and subject to UK tariffs, if any.
See also British-built Toyota, Nissan, JLR etc etc. All enjoy substantial sales in the EU, and contain many EU-made components.
That is their loss and our gain should the plants stay in Britain, and they won’t be able to sell us completed trucks so easily - if they pull their plants OUT of Britain.
It is Heads the UK wins, Tails the EU loses.Difficult to see that continuing, really.
Re-Source Re-Source Re-Source.
It’s awkward to Civil Servants. Local Government will be burning the midnight oil, and actually earning their salaries.
It doesn’t matter though. Low-paid NON government workers - are wearing the proverbial boots now.
It is considered “impossible” for UKIP to be a future government in this country.
If the top three parties refuse to implement the biggest mandate in History though - then UKIP will find a way to punch above their weight, despite all the headwinds that have prevented them from getting any seats at tables thus far.
If our establishment figures waste too much energy preventing people from supporting UKIP - then the futher Right those would-be supporters will go.
Government figures - clearly didn’t learn the lessons of History in that regard.
We are under internal attack in the entire western world from what could be described as “Nuclear Leftism”.
There is no lie, no outrage, and no morality to those who call themselves party politicians now.
The Internet Age has presented us with a new way to develop Democracy, and bring it into the 21st century proper.
To date though, - “this oppotunity has not been taken up”.
We still have to fill in bits of paper and write crosses on them.
Any attempt to make the voting process “more secure” gets met with howls of derision about “how the poor would be disenfranchised”.
FFS anyone would think that literacy in this country - is below 50%!!
If we’re expected to trust “banking apps” - then why can’t we trust an electronic vote from within a secure computer system?
What is wrong with politics - continues to be fanned by “too many people don’t vote at all”.
“None of the Above” - could be to blame for ALL our political woes.
You are confusing political speculation with the realities of WTO.
WTO means tariffs on imported components, and even higher tariffs on exported finished goods. That’s the double whammy for the British automotive sector.
The UK has high employment costs and its workers are not the most productive.
Moving outside the EU will not help that.
Slovakia on the other hand is an EU nation, with all the advantages that brings in terms of ‘components in, completed vehicles out’ and has productive workers who can live well on €2000 a month.
It’s my guess that’s where the UK’s automotive jobs will end up if we go WTO post-Brexit. The vehicle assemblers will go first, and the component manufacturers will follow. R&D may linger for a while, but that too will be gone in a generation.
Comparisons with what it was like in the UK before we joined the EU are really not valid. The world has changed. In any case the UK was a member of EFTA previous to being in the EU, and going to WTO rules is a far cry from EFTA.
Duties and tariffs are just one issue with WTO: you can find out about more of them here.
GasGas:
The vehicle assemblers will go first, and the component manufacturers will follow
Look further ahead.
The vast majority of the components which make up the internal combustion engined vehicle will be gone anyway with the rise of electric vehicles which will be assembled by machines anyway so the remainer cries about the automotive industry are just that, desperate cries.
The director of Toyota UK (JLR BMW Etc.) politicising JIT gives me concerns in so far as they seem to be too stupid to simply increase lead times, preferring instead to close their factories and deploy the sit and wait for it to arrive option. Shareholders ought to be worried.
In case anyone missed it:
Increase lead times, and you increase costs. The average inventory in a car factory will last less than a shift. How big a warehouse would you need to hold enough components to last a week. And where would you put it?
Electric vehicles are over-hyped and under-performing. I suspect most vehicles will have internal combustion engines for at least a generation. I’ve just got back from the IAA Show in Germany and while the likes of Bosch and Delphi are talking electric they are still developing systems for the next 2 generations of diesel engines.
Even electric cars are still built by humans…there are 2000 people involved in the supply chain and assembly for the Nissan Leaf, for example.
Came across this today by Jack Handey:
“I remember how my great-uncle Jerry would sit on the porch and whittle all day long. Once he whittled me a toy boat out of a larger toy boat I had. It was almost as good as the first one, except now it had bumpy whittle marks all over it. And no paint, because he had whittled off the paint. No paint.” –
Brexit in a nutshell
GasGas:
You are confusing political speculation with the realities of WTO.WTO means tariffs on imported components, and even higher tariffs on exported finished goods. That’s the double whammy for the British automotive sector.
The UK has high employment costs and its workers are not the most productive.
Moving outside the EU will not help that.
Slovakia on the other hand is an EU nation, with all the advantages that brings in terms of ‘components in, completed vehicles out’ and has productive workers who can live well on €2000 a month.
It’s my guess that’s where the UK’s automotive jobs will end up if we go WTO post-Brexit. The vehicle assemblers will go first, and the component manufacturers will follow. R&D may linger for a while, but that too will be gone in a generation.
Comparisons with what it was like in the UK before we joined the EU are really not valid. The world has changed. In any case the UK was a member of EFTA previous to being in the EU, and going to WTO rules is a far cry from EFTA.
Duties and tariffs are just one issue with WTO: you can find out about more of them here.
You make it sounds like the entire purpose of the EU - was to protect inefficient companies from “proper” Captalism market forces, where inefficient firms - fall by the wayside when they can’t shape up in time for major changes, as we face now with the forthcoming “Brexit Upheaval”.
I would argue that companies currently importing “parts”, and exporting “finished product” - need to decide among all those items - “which ones can have parts made here in the UK in future” and which finished products “would be better off being assembled abroad”.
With an econmy which is nowadays more geared to “services” than “industry” - it would make sense to re-patriate the making of parts for cars wherever possible, whilst exporting the industry for manufacturing any product that will clearly be a liability to the company in the future.
In the end, the manufacturing Business has a choice to make “Do you want to do business in Britain or not?”
If such a business “can’t make it pay” - then they will go abroad, and we’ll have less companies left in the UK that could suddenly go ■■■■-up overnight as a result of this “Corporate Cleansing” if you will.
If a business is already making it pay - then I would suggest they are going to expand in the UK in the future, and thus the overall effect on UK employment - should end up being neutral, assuming we don’t actually see those companies that have opted to say “gain market share”, and otherwise prosper. 
The WTO like the EU - has a bunch of rules that ultimately “are made to be broken”.
The WTO is supposed to serve Nation’s Trade and the wider international market infrastructure - NOT the other way around!
“The Sabbath was create for Man - NOT Man created for the Sabbath.”
J.Christ 29AD
It makes sense for any country to get rid of all it’s industry that needs heavy government subsidy - and export it to say, Mainland Europe where the reduced number of EU remaining nations - will have to foot the bill to come up with those future “subsidies” to such firms.
The UK can continue to buy BMWs made entirely in Germany, and the cost won’t be such a worry to the UK once the Euro has found it’s own level post-brexit, which I suggest will be somewhat lower than where it has been artificially uphelden to at present.
Those industries that end up being 100% within Britain - don’t need to worry about fluctuating currencies though. They can concentrate on the home market for their “teething sales”, and worry about the export market later, when the currencies have all settled out in the wash.
If you make a Ford made entirely within the UK cheap enough - people will buy it over an imported Toyota, Renault, or Fiat - if we want to look at the lower Non Luxury side of the car market for a moment…
Companies should not need “Ex-Communist System Planned Economy Government Subsidies” to live and exist from one day to the next.
Communist car manufacturers came into their own after the collapse of communism, and the upheaval to Eastern European industry that came about as a result of that.
Don’t be afraid of “Change”. There’s a lot more upside than downside, if you use a bit of common sense!
I suppose like a lot of other people I am confused about the car manufacture / Brexit scenario. I may be shot down in flames here as there seems to be more intelligent people than me making comments :-
German cars - I have a one year old C class Mercedes built in South Africa (about 95 % of the C class production for Europe and the UK comes from SA)
Honda are about to introduce a 4 door Civic into the UK built in Turkey.
As we know neither of the above countries are in the UK and these are just two examples but if these cars can be built outside the EU and then imported in will it not be the same for UK built cars after Brexit.
I live about two miles from the Nissan factory at Washington ( in fact did some of the muckshift when the ground works started in the early eighties) and believe if Nissan wanted to have a factory in the heart of Europe they would have built it on mainland Europe not the UK. Every car they have built for the LHD EU market has had to be ferried across the North Sea at extra cost and that has been the same for 30 years.
If they have been happy to do that all this time I don’t think they will be too concerned with Brexit.
Tyneside
tyneside:
German cars - I have a one year old C class Mercedes built in South Africa (about 95 % of the C class production for Europe and the UK comes from SA).
Tyneside
Just a quick aside, be interesting to see what Mercedes Toyota etc do with their plants in SA when the ruling cabal there finally legalise theft of farmland (that has been bought and worked for generations) and turn a blind eye to wholesale racial murder…Zimbabwe did the farm theft route and it hasn’t worked out too well.
Will MB and Toyota be wondering if their factories and land might be next? not exactly going to lead to stability.
Back to the thread, business will carry on, there will be changes and wins and losses, just as there would be if the referendum had never happened.
Some things, like national sovereignty are beyond simple economics, we managed perfectly well without paying through the nose to belong to a collective mummy up until 1973, we’ll manage perfectly well after, and we’ll be able to sack the decision makers because they won’t be able to point the finger at the EU any more.
German cars - I have a one year old C class Mercedes built in South Africa (about 95 % of the C class production for Europe and the UK comes from SA)
Honda are about to introduce a 4 door Civic into the UK built in Turkey.
As we know neither of the above countries are in the UK and these are just two examples but if these cars can be built outside the EU and then imported in will it not be the same for UK built cars after Brexit.
I live about two miles from the Nissan factory at Washington ( in fact did some of the muckshift when the ground works started in the early eighties) and believe if Nissan wanted to have a factory in the heart of Europe they would have built it on mainland Europe not the UK. Every car they have built for the LHD EU market has had to be ferried across the North Sea at extra cost and that has been the same for 30 years.
If they have been happy to do that all this time I don’t think they will be too concerned with Brexit.
You’d be surprised how many up-market ‘German’ cars come from the USA and RSA to the UK. I had a neighbour who was a bit of a car snob. He looked at my Focus next to his BMW and said “Ford…OK, I suppose, but it’s worth paying extra for German engineering.” I pointed out that the Focus was built in Germany, and the BM in South Africa and it went a bit quiet after that.
But, to answer your point about imports of finished cars to the EU…both Turkey and South Africa have trade agreements with the EU (which obviously includes the UK up to the point we leave).
If we leave without agreement and revert to WTO we will essentially be behind Turkey and South Africa and practically every other nation in the world when it comes to doing business with the EU. It took over a decade to negotiate the deal Canada has with the EU. We’ve got just a few months.
Michael Gove said it would only take an afternoon, and as for experts, who needs them?
Well, I think we do…quite urgently now.
The Nissan factory was opened because Nissan wanted
a) Free access to the UK market
b) An English-speaking base to centre its European operations in
c) The EU and UK subsidies that were on offer for developing in an EU-recognised deprived area.
So that’s why they are here.
Will they stay post-Brexit?..Unlikely, now that they are ultimately owned by Renault, which has close links to the French Govt.