muckles:
switchlogic:
So Autostrade are promising to rebuild the bridge in just 8 months! Makes you want to scream HAVE YOU LEARNT NOTHING? at them!
Personally I’d be more worried about the existing bridges of a similar age in Italy, than a new bridge which will no doubt be well over engineered and of a tried a trusted design and construction method, especially as (looking at one post on here) this isn’t a one off event in Italy in the last few years.
Bet the EU doesn’t throw an EXCESS of cash at such a project - to make sure it indeed is done “no expense spared”…
The EU doesn’t like the incumbent government, and will no doubt seek to weaken it by “under funding it”
This, will have the effect of turning more Italians of all political persuasions - against the EU, and more likely to become “Publicum Pro EUxit” in due course. 
newmercman:
Carryfast:
newmercman:
Don’t forget that bridge stood for 50years, surely if there were flaws in its construction, it would have collapsed long ago…
Seems to fit the description more by luck than judgement.Although the designers might have said you will knock it down and replace it with something better in around 20-30 years max when we’ve got more cash to play with won’t you. No need for the horses head when they just needed to say yes of course we will at that point and no one could prove otherwise. 
So it’s likely that most concrete structures from the 60s are past their best before date? Things were a lot more primitive in those days, slide rules with pen and paper rather than CAD, would concrete and steel testing have been as accurate as today’s methods, or even used at all? Had they learned to agitate concrete to remove air pockets at that time? Was it poured continually to prevent it become a series of blocks with a smooth outer surface?
I’d guess the Humber Bridge would have been closer to slide rules and pen and paper design calculations than CAD too.Which then leaves the question of its use of slip formed reinforced concrete for its towers v Morandi’s seeming use of so called ‘pre stressed concrete’ to make its towers.Which seems to explain the missing re bar. So why did Morandi think that pre stressed concrete was good enough for his designs but Bernard Wex obviously didn’t think it was good enough for his masterpiece bearing in mind that a suspension bridge obviously doesn’t impose as much tensile stress on its towers as the cable/concrete stay type ?.
Have to say before this I didn’t even know anything about so called pre stressed concrete thinking that everything was made from proper reinforced concrete. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestress … protection
Winseer:
It isn’t going to be so easy to “Blame the government” for this one either.
State funeral for Genoa bridge collapse disaster | Daily Mail Online
It is a new government, that has only been in power a short time.
It cannot therefore be blamed for what has take the best part of half a century to set up as a public disaster.
The new incumbents will be judged, if anything, - on how they deal with the real culprits for this, and other “collapse” tragedies, of which Genoa merely happens to be the “worst so far”.
Ironically for once I think the argument between the use of proper reinforced concrete structures v prestressed transcends Brexit or EU or which time line etc.This seems all about a question of zb engineering practice whenever and wherever it is in the world and those who support the use of pre stressed zb over proper reinforced should be ashamed of themselves.
Winseer:
muckles:
switchlogic:
So Autostrade are promising to rebuild the bridge in just 8 months! Makes you want to scream HAVE YOU LEARNT NOTHING? at them!
Personally I’d be more worried about the existing bridges of a similar age in Italy, than a new bridge which will no doubt be well over engineered and of a tried a trusted design and construction method, especially as (looking at one post on here) this isn’t a one off event in Italy in the last few years.
Bet the EU doesn’t throw an EXCESS of cash at such a project - to make sure it indeed is done “no expense spared”…
The EU doesn’t like the incumbent government, and will no doubt seek to weaken it by “under funding it”
This, will have the effect of turning more Italians of all political persuasions - against the EU, and more likely to become “Publicum Pro EUxit” in due course.
Got to admire your perseverance at making every topic about the EU and how to blame them. Does make you look a bit daft though, like an old man shouting at the sea
41 people dead in horrendous circumstances, and all the usual suspects can think of is scoring points against the efin EU!!! Small minded cretins.
Show some respect FFS.
Winseer:
malcolmgbell:
Winseer:
alamcculloch:
I am wondering how long the new Forth crossing will last , built with Chinese steel. What could possibly go wrong?
Does Chinese Steel have a different structure to any other nation’s steel?
A process of Steel Manufacture is going to be a pretty universal thing - isn’t it? If you make a batch of steel that is liable to shatter upon shock - then it ain’t steel - it is pig iron. If it’s too flexible, then it won’t hold up much weight either. The standards for steel making are pretty universal across the world.
I don’t think the Chinese are going to be palming off Pig Iron or White Cast Iron as “Commie’s Finest Steel” somehow.
Making the steel is a universal thing then, and removing any undesired impurities beyond that manufacturing process - involves metallurgy rather than steelmaking then.
Is a Samurai Sword superior to a European Broadsword? - Yes. The metal has been hammered over upon itself a large number of times, which makes Japanese Steel superior to Toledo Steel for instance - Toledo Steel probably being the benchmark for swords made in the middle ages.
I still don’t think this bridge collapse is about the steel though. I think it is about the impurities in the concrete that were not removed properly when the concrete mix itself was being made.
washingtonpost.com/news/wor … by-itself/
That’s a paysite… Doh! 
Sorry not a structural ingineer like your self,please accept my deepest apology doh 
The Forth road bridge that opened in 1964 was inspected and found to be in a critical state with steel cables rusting and individual wires parting. The new bridge was ordered ahead of the intended schedule and commissioned. The older bridge has really done 100 years of work in 50 because there has been an explosion in the amount of traffic being carried. New cabling has been fitted so we now have the old bridge reconditioned. Has this amount of work and forward planning happened in Italy regarding their infrastructure.?
kevmac47:
41 people dead in horrendous circumstances, and all the usual suspects can think of is scoring points against the efin EU!!! Small minded cretins.
Show some respect FFS.
Oh wait it’s probably fair to say that they didn’t have the cash to build a decent bridge because of the drain of both their net EU contributions and trying to keep the poor South of their own country fed and clothed and housed.So why would anyone want to play down and divert attention from the part caused by the efin EUSSR project in those deaths in it nicking badly needed Italian cash to subsidise other parts of Europe.Especially when ‘other parts of Europe’ means poverty stricken places like efin Luxembourg.
alamcculloch:
The Forth road bridge that opened in 1964 was inspected and found to be in a critical state with steel cables rusting and individual wires parting. The new bridge was ordered ahead of the intended schedule and commissioned. The older bridge has really done 100 years of work in 50 because there has been an explosion in the amount of traffic being carried. New cabling has been fitted so we now have the old bridge reconditioned. Has this amount of work and forward planning happened in Italy regarding their infrastructure.?
Firstly there’s no confirmation that it was the concrete stays ( the equivalent of the Forth Bridge’s cables ) that failed in the case of the Morandi.As opposed to the piers and/or towers.Which leaves the question of not only the design of the Forth suspension bridge’s towers but also those of its replacement cable stayed bridge.IE reinforced concrete at least in the case of the Queensferry and we can bet also in the case of the Forth suspension bridge.
But non reinforced ‘pre stressed’ concrete in the case Morandi.Which leaves the question was the Morandi’s design life stated accordingly to account for the obviously inferior construction methods used bearing in mind that the comparison with both the Forth bridges is obviously a case of comparing apples with oranges in that regard.Just as comparing the Italian road spending budget with 1960’s or even 2011 UK’s.
switchlogic:
Winseer:
muckles:
switchlogic:
So Autostrade are promising to rebuild the bridge in just 8 months! Makes you want to scream HAVE YOU LEARNT NOTHING? at them!
Personally I’d be more worried about the existing bridges of a similar age in Italy, than a new bridge which will no doubt be well over engineered and of a tried a trusted design and construction method, especially as (looking at one post on here) this isn’t a one off event in Italy in the last few years.
Bet the EU doesn’t throw an EXCESS of cash at such a project - to make sure it indeed is done “no expense spared”…
The EU doesn’t like the incumbent government, and will no doubt seek to weaken it by “under funding it”
This, will have the effect of turning more Italians of all political persuasions - against the EU, and more likely to become “Publicum Pro EUxit” in due course.
Got to admire your perseverance at making every topic about the EU and how to blame them. Does make you look a bit daft though, like an old man shouting at the sea
I’m making predictions of course. Perhaps like Farage, I might have the “Curse of Cassandra” though. “No thanks for being correct when I am, but jumped on quickly when I’m not”. (At least it proves someone is paying attention to my detail!) My hope is that “if just one single life can be saved as a result of those in power merely to look in the right places, respond correctly, and act to avert moral hazard in the future” then all my rants might have not been in vain.
But it is true though. I am against the EU politically like Churchill was against Hitler politically - even whilst the rest of parliament scoffed, ignored, and failed to prepare throughout the 1930’s.
kevmac47:
41 people dead in horrendous circumstances, and all the usual suspects can think of is scoring points against the efin EU!!! Small minded cretins.
Show some respect FFS.
If anyone else had been talking of the things I’ve spoken of in this thread - the worst would have been a “CSI accusation”.
Someone is to blame for dozens of people needlessly killed. If we don’t blame someone, and blame correctly at that - then the same thing is going to happen again and again - until finally someone in a position of authority really DOES “Learn the lessons”.
In Britain, we have Grenfell Tower. Khan is still in place. The Kensington Council is still in place. The only people going to jail, are the fraudsters trying to cash in on the tragedy.
What lessons are being learned here then, doya think?
There are hundreds if not thousands of blocks of flats around the country with plastic cladding on them - and to date, only some of them have had the cladding removed.
“Not enough money for that”.
Either we blame the under-funding establishment for wasting the money that could have saved lives “elsewhere”, or we blame each other for “electing the wrong government” in the first place.
Supporters of the opposition - would like to do the latter of course. Remainers blame Brexiteers. Labour voters blame Tory voters.
There lies the path to civil war if we’re not careful. We only await that final public outrage that represents the proverbial “Straw that broke the camel’s back”.
Personally, I’d rather see this country erect a guillotine in Piccadilly circus than go through what Syria is going through right now. “Revolution” does less harm than “Modern Civil War”. 
I just heard, the fellow that built it was a lorry driver,he built bridges in his spare time
The difference between prestressed and reinforced concrete is how the steel provides tensile strength.
Concrete has low strength in tension or bending: reinforcing steel bars will strengthen it as long as the rebars adhere firmly, if cracks lead to corrosion the steel rusts, expands and makes cracks worse.
Prestressed concrete has steel bars running through its length and these are stretched mechanically before the concrete sets around them, so the concrete is under compression and can resist tensile load. The key is again that the steel does not ‘unstick’ from the surrounding concrete or corrode.
Both methods need careful manufacture from quality materials and proper maintenance inspections, probably some of which was lacking in the Genoa bridge.
Got this on Ebay, for all you budding builders
Buckstones:
The difference between prestressed and reinforced concrete is how the steel provides tensile strength.
Concrete has low strength in tension or bending: reinforcing steel bars will strengthen it as long as the rebars adhere firmly, if cracks lead to corrosion the steel rusts, expands and makes cracks worse.
Prestressed concrete has steel bars running through its length and these are stretched mechanically before the concrete sets around them, so the concrete is under compression and can resist tensile load. The key is again that the steel does not ‘unstick’ from the surrounding concrete or corrode.
Both methods need careful manufacture from quality materials and proper maintenance inspections, probably some of which was lacking in the Genoa bridge.
Pre stressed concrete clearly has no proper re bar in it at all.It’s just a case of using cables or other wiry type stuff to create a stressing action within just the concrete and then saying that’s supposedly as good as RC. Which leaves the question if it’s supposedly that good why do they still use RC at all,let alone in the most demanding applications like the Quensferry bridge’s towers,as opposed to just relying on PSC for everything.Probably because they know that at the end of the day RC is superior but costs more.
Winseer:
My hope is that “if just one single life can be saved as a result of those in power merely to look in the right places, respond correctly, and act to avert moral hazard in the future” then all my rants might have not been in vain.
Wow…you think your comments on bridge design and the EU will save lives?
switchlogic:
Wow…you think your comments on bridge design and the EU will save lives?
Obviously assuming enough of us join him in at least saying that what Italian cash there is should be spent on Italian infrastructure not Spanish/East Euro etc etc and to make rich Danes and Luxembourgers and Dutch etc even richer,in this case obviously yes.
malcolmgbell:
Got this on Ebay, for all you budding builders
Now I haven’t had chance to read that wonderful looking book, but wouldn’t the Italians be better off talking to the Germans, as lots of stuff they built 70 and 100 odd years ago is still standing across most of Europe.
This was bombed on a number of occasions…
Some bad virgins on here, who in reality should be in the RDC/ tall stories thread.