Franglais:
Didnt the expenses scandals etc give you pause for thought about our MPs before this Brexit stuff? Buzzer and yourself are right that everything is writ large with Brexit, but it was hardly all plain sailing in the past was it? You do raise a very valid point of course: do we (should we?) vote in elections for an individual, or for a party? If the latter, shouldnt we have a proportional representative system?
These things did give me pause for thought, although to be honest, I didn’t have to pause for very long. The expenses scandal seemed to be just another example of the complacent insular bubble that was Westminster at the time.
My MP’s over the years, (I’ve lived for the most part in two areas of the UK) have been very loyal to their party and very, very bland, strictly following the orders of the whip.
Should we replace FPTP? Should we vote for a party instead of an individual? It’s a no-brainer really, isn’t it?
When’s that going to happen though? It’s not in the interests of the two main parties. Debate closed.
There’s going to be a general election sooner rather than later. The whole result is going to hinge on about a dozen, maybe twenty, marginal seats.
A bit disgraceful really, but that’s our system for you.
Franglais:
Didnt the expenses scandals etc give you pause for thought about our MPs before this Brexit stuff? Buzzer and yourself are right that everything is writ large with Brexit, but it was hardly all plain sailing in the past was it? You do raise a very valid point of course: do we (should we?) vote in elections for an individual, or for a party? If the latter, shouldnt we have a proportional representative system?
These things did give me pause for thought, although to be honest, I didn’t have to pause for very long. The expenses scandal seemed to be just another example of the complacent insular bubble that was Westminster at the time.
My MP’s over the years, (I’ve lived for the most part in two areas of the UK) have been very loyal to their party and very, very bland, strictly following the orders of the whip.
Should we replace FPTP? Should we vote for a party instead of an individual? It’s a no-brainer really, isn’t it?
When’s that going to happen though? It’s not in the interests of the two main parties. Debate closed.
There’s going to be a general election sooner rather than later. The whole result is going to hinge on about a dozen, maybe twenty, marginal seats.
A bit disgraceful really, but that’s our system for you.
It’s so much better to tie ourselves to a system in which elected MEP’s have no rights to initiate legislation.While even the rubber stamping exercise which is all the powers they have is decided by a foreign 90% + vote which we have no electoral control over.
As opposed to a Confederal system which gives the National MEP groups Supremacy and the individual,independent,right of opt out and substitution.
Franglais:
Didnt the expenses scandals etc give you pause for thought about our MPs before this Brexit stuff? Buzzer and yourself are right that everything is writ large with Brexit, but it was hardly all plain sailing in the past was it? You do raise a very valid point of course: do we (should we?) vote in elections for an individual, or for a party? If the latter, shouldnt we have a proportional representative system?
These things did give me pause for thought, although to be honest, I didn’t have to pause for very long. The expenses scandal seemed to be just another example of the complacent insular bubble that was Westminster at the time.
My MP’s over the years, (I’ve lived for the most part in two areas of the UK) have been very loyal to their party and very, very bland, strictly following the orders of the whip.
Should we replace FPTP? Should we vote for a party instead of an individual? It’s a no-brainer really, isn’t it?
When’s that going to happen though? It’s not in the interests of the two main parties. Debate closed.
There’s going to be a general election sooner rather than later. The whole result is going to hinge on about a dozen, maybe twenty, marginal seats.
A bit disgraceful really, but that’s our system for you.
Not much to argue with there.
If the Brexit ball is still in the air we could get a general election decided on that one issue.
If people see the Brexit party as their one shot at that then they could become very strong. And if voted in they will try to push all of their manifesto through.
I googled “Brexit party manifesto” to see what else they would support. They didnt actually have one it seems for the last EU elections. Anyone voting for them was really signing a blank cheque. Not an awful lot on their official site either, but I did come up with this: [thebrexitparty.com/](https://thebrexitparty.com/) Now to be doubly clear, that site isnt Farage, it says, “we’re not really Nigel Farage, but the text above is lifted straight from a Brexit Party leaflet. Apart from the sentence about the manifesto. Nigel Farage has refused to publish one ahead of the elections so we’ve done it for him based on his own words and the statements and policies of his Brexit Party candidates.”
But the quotes from those candidates do stand up to scrutiny…frightening…
The problem with voting for a party and not a candidate, is that the party machine will fill the positions with those on side to the leadership’s regime at the point in time when such a voting system was implemented.
Take it back a few years and Blair would simply fill the seats with hundreds of his cronies, 200 odd little Blair/Mandleson clones , and depending on which pointless leader the tories had ruining the ship at the time, would see hundreds of Majorets or hundreds more Cameron cohorts from Oxbridge or the Cotwolds croquet/polo lawns, and as Cameron was a Blair disciple the country would permanently become a Blair regime dynasty, with no way of getting rid of them, difficult enough its proving anway, what with the quality of the leaderships that have followed.
I think most people try to vote for a party, and that has produced the dozens of tories currently half in half out of parliament who don’t have a conservative bone in their body, and the same on the Labour side, where a sizeable proportion of the tribal working class parts of the country are represented by someone who hasn’t a clue about what matters to the working class of the country.
The Liberal Democrats, once again proving to even the most blinkered they have neither of those attributes, i really don’t know what their voters are on.
Even those who vote for a person rather than a party have had their choices dictated by either tory or labour central offices who parachute in their choices, overriding the wishes of the local associations.
I’m fortunate enough to have a decent genuine Brexiteer as my MP, one of that handful who refused to vote for May’s surrender document at the third vote, yes he’s a tory but because he’s a genuine conservative not a wind blown candle i owe him my vote…however from what i read Johnson has issued the threat that those who don’t vote for his new deal (possibly May’s surrender treaty with the Irish backstop reworded) will have the whip withdrawn, in which case all bets are off re my voting intention, if they replace my MP with another yes person for the next election then TBP it will be…if my MP stays then i doubt if TBP will stand a candidate against him because it would be utter folly, shooting themselves in the foot labour style.
Franglais:
Didnt the expenses scandals etc give you pause for thought about our MPs before this Brexit stuff? Buzzer and yourself are right that everything is writ large with Brexit, but it was hardly all plain sailing in the past was it? You do raise a very valid point of course: do we (should we?) vote in elections for an individual, or for a party? If the latter, shouldnt we have a proportional representative system?
These things did give me pause for thought, although to be honest, I didn’t have to pause for very long. The expenses scandal seemed to be just another example of the complacent insular bubble that was Westminster at the time.
My MP’s over the years, (I’ve lived for the most part in two areas of the UK) have been very loyal to their party and very, very bland, strictly following the orders of the whip.
Should we replace FPTP? Should we vote for a party instead of an individual? It’s a no-brainer really, isn’t it?
When’s that going to happen though? It’s not in the interests of the two main parties. Debate closed.
There’s going to be a general election sooner rather than later. The whole result is going to hinge on about a dozen, maybe twenty, marginal seats.
A bit disgraceful really, but that’s our system for you.
It’s so much better to tie ourselves to a system in which elected MEP’s have no rights to initiate legislation.While even the rubber stamping exercise which is all the powers they have is decided by a foreign 90% + vote which we have no electoral control over.
As opposed to a Confederal system which gives the National MEP groups Supremacy and the individual,independent,right of opt out and substitution.
In the UK, there have been 4 successful Private Members Bills in the last 2017 / 2019 session.
Is the EU system, where Commissioners initiate legislation, so very different to the UK system where mostly it is Ministers who do so?
The Commissioners are proposed by each country`s government, much as Ministers are chosen by the PM. Not identical, but there are similarities.
In the UK an MP can visit a Minister and suggest a Bill. In the EU an MEP can suggest things to a Commissioner.
90% of MPs dont care much about what happens in Hampshire. We ampshire `ogs have no control over how the rest of the UK votes, therefore we should be exempt from all Westminster law.
If you think any (and all) groups can opt out of any rule they dislike, then we`d just as well abandon all idea of any form of law abiding society.
Juddian:
The problem with voting for a party and not a candidate, is that the party machine will fill the positions with those on side to the leadership’s regime at the point in time when such a voting system was implemented.
Take it back a few years and Blair would simply fill the seats with hundreds of his cronies, 200 odd little Blair/Mandleson clones , and depending on which pointless leader the tories had ruining the ship at the time, would see hundreds of Majorets or hundreds more Cameron cohorts from Oxbridge or the Cotwolds croquet/polo lawns, and as Cameron was a Blair disciple the country would permanently become a Blair regime dynasty, with no way of getting rid of them, difficult enough its proving anway, what with the quality of the leaderships that have followed.
I think most people try to vote for a party, and that has produced the dozens of tories currently half in half out of parliament who don’t have a conservative bone in their body, and the same on the Labour side, where a sizeable proportion of the tribal working class parts of the country are represented by someone who hasn’t a clue about what matters to the working class of the country.
The Liberal Democrats, once again proving to even the most blinkered they have neither of those attributes, i really don’t know what their voters are on.
Even those who vote for a person rather than a party have had their choices dictated by either tory or labour central offices who parachute in their choices, overriding the wishes of the local associations.
I’m fortunate enough to have a decent genuine Brexiteer as my MP, one of that handful who refused to vote for May’s surrender document at the third vote, yes he’s a tory but because he’s a genuine conservative not a wind blown candle i owe him my vote…however from what i read Johnson has issued the threat that those who don’t vote for his new deal (possibly May’s surrender treaty with the Irish backstop reworded) will have the whip withdrawn, in which case all bets are off re my voting intention, if they replace my MP with another yes person for the next election then TBP it will be…if my MP stays then i doubt if TBP will stand a candidate against him because it would be utter folly, shooting themselves in the foot labour style.
Firstly believing that the Tories are anything other than the same Party which took us into this Kraut run Federalist trap and the same Party which has kept us in it and which intends to keep us in it,is the definition of making the same mistake over and over and over again and expecting a different outcome.
As for the so called TBP they are just another bunch of controlled opposition muppets.With a self proclaimed anti Nationalist leader.Who ran off with his supposed enemy Cameron telling everyone to trust May when the rigged referendum didn’t go the way it was planned to.While trashing people like Le Pen and Batten and TR.
While what we are seeing at present is just a LibLabCon good cop bad cop routine with one united aim that being to deliver us into Lisbon treaty vassalage using the Hotel California clause that is article 50 and the associated surrender documents drawn up by parliament to meet it.Just as the US Federalists intended when they kicked off this obvious plan to install a USE made in its own image by proxy by way of German Federalism.With Corbyn’s Soviet Socialists being seen as the useful idiots helping them to do it.
As for me it’s English Democrats,or to hell with the place it doesn’t deserve to survive,having a Head of State and forces obviously all acting in the interests of this unholy alliance of US and German federalism.
dexxy57:
Should we replace FPTP? Should we vote for a party instead of an individual? It’s a no-brainer really, isn’t it?
When’s that going to happen though? It’s not in the interests of the two main parties. Debate closed.
Unless of course, the ‘2 main parties’ are not the 2 main parties anymore.
And proportional doesn’t mean abandonning personal choice of member, it just means that overall it is done in a fairer way.
dexxy57:
Should we replace FPTP? Should we vote for a party instead of an individual? It’s a no-brainer really, isn’t it?
When’s that going to happen though? It’s not in the interests of the two main parties. Debate closed.
Unless of course, the ‘2 main parties’ are not the 2 main parties anymore.
And proportional doesn’t mean abandonning personal choice of member, it just means that overall it is done in a fairer way.
The 2 main parties (the two ugly sisters?) are going to hold on to FPTP for as long as they can, and even though both of them have never been in as much of a mess as they are now, they’ve no intention of changing the system. Politicians are devious and conniving. Got to love them eh?
> Carryfast: > As for me it’s English Democrats,or to hell with the place it doesn’t deserve to survive,having a Head of State and forces obviously all acting in the interests of this unholy alliance of US and German federalism.
What about the rest of us who aren’t English & can’t wait for the English to go back home to Germany
whisperingsmith: > Carryfast: > As for me it’s English Democrats,or to hell with the place it doesn’t deserve to survive,having a Head of State and forces obviously all acting in the interests of this unholy alliance of US and German federalism.
What about the rest of us who aren’t English & can’t wait for the English to go back home to Germany
You should be proud of your heritage of course, but why so modern and new fangled? How about our true forebears?
Arent we all descended from AL-288-1, aka Lucy ? Arent we all of Ethiopian heritage? Shouldn`t the English Democrats set up a new branch, to recognise our common ancestry, in Mogadishu?
whisperingsmith: > Carryfast: > As for me it’s English Democrats,or to hell with the place it doesn’t deserve to survive,having a Head of State and forces obviously all acting in the interests of this unholy alliance of US and German federalism.
What about the rest of us who aren’t English & can’t wait for the English to go back home to Germany
Let’s get this right.The Celts,who are basically an Austrian tribe who didn’t want to stay in Austria or Germany and decided to row across the Channel to live here happily ever after for centuries.Are moaning about a mixed bag of Dutch and Germans who also didn’t want to stay in Germany or Freisland and who also decided to row across the Channel to set up home to live here happily ever after for centuries.Until they were all firstly invaded by a bunch of Frogs who then caused bleedin havoc here for Centuries after while laughably calling themselves ‘English’ to get away with it.
Then the Celts are saying now let’s hand the whole place over to even more foreign centralised mainland Continental rule.You know the same Continent which we’d all originally decided to leave behind us to set up home here as independent English and Celtic Nation states.You couldn’t make this zb up.
Franglais:
You should be proud of your heritage of course, but why so modern and new fangled? How about our true forebears?
Arent we all descended from AL-288-1, aka Lucy ? Arent we all of Ethiopian heritage? Shouldn`t the English Democrats set up a new branch, to recognise our common ancestry, in Mogadishu?
Great so we dissolve parliament and hand the country over to the Ethiopian government instead of the EU.What could possibly go wrong.
Franglais:
You should be proud of your heritage of course, but why so modern and new fangled? How about our true forebears?
Arent we all descended from AL-288-1, aka Lucy ? Arent we all of Ethiopian heritage? Shouldn`t the English Democrats set up a new branch, to recognise our common ancestry, in Mogadishu?
Great so we dissolve parliament and hand the country over to the Ethiopian government instead of the EU.What could possibly go wrong.
No proper government in Ethiopia is there?
Just right for an anarchist like you!
Franglais:
You should be proud of your heritage of course, but why so modern and new fangled? How about our true forebears?
Arent we all descended from AL-288-1, aka Lucy ? Arent we all of Ethiopian heritage? Shouldn`t the English Democrats set up a new branch, to recognise our common ancestry, in Mogadishu?
Great so we dissolve parliament and hand the country over to the Ethiopian government instead of the EU.What could possibly go wrong.
No proper government in Ethiopia is there?
Just right for an anarchist like you!
No it’s fine we’re all descended from Lucy so no problem.We sub out the European and National Parliament to our Ethiopian relatives.What’s not to like we save loads of money in MP’s wages no need for any elections here and no need for them to all emigrate here because this place will be just like Ethiopia subject to Ethiopian government rule.Who needs the English or England when the whole of Europe and more than 1,000 years of its development has also been made redundant.
While pickling shallots today I had the Labour party conference on the tele in the background and apparently when Labour get in to no10 and Old McDonnell is in no11 he says we are all going to be on a 32 hour week with a minimum of £10 an hour pay how wonderful is that going to be but if you are a realist you know its not going to work, he says it will be funded by increased taxes presumably on the rich as otherwise there would be no point to the exercise. think he has forgotten that companies may not go along with his ideas and move abroad.
Never ceases to amaze me what they preach to the gullable when there is a general election on the horizon, why don’t they just say life is going to be harder so tighten your belts that way no one ends up disappointed. Buzzer
Buzzer:
While pickling shallots today I had the Labour party conference on the tele in the background and apparently when Labour get in to no10 and Old McDonnell is in no11 he says we are all going to be on a 32 hour week with a minimum of £10 an hour pay how wonderful is that going to be but if you are a realist you know its not going to work, he says it will be funded by increased taxes presumably on the rich as otherwise there would be no point to the exercise. think he has forgotten that companies may not go along with his ideas and move abroad.
Never ceases to amaze me what they preach to the gullable when there is a general election on the horizon, why don’t they just say life is going to be harder so tighten your belts that way no one ends up disappointed. Buzzer
There’s nothing wrong with a 32 hour week this is the 21st Century not the 19th and taxes don’t fund wages.However this is the same muppet who wants to stay in the EU single ( Free ) labour market and allow the free movement of Capital around Europe and all subject to free competition laws.What could possibly go wrong.So we end up swamped with more East Euro labour while at the same time what industry we have left moves to cheaper parts of Europe.
Buzzer:
While pickling shallots today I had the Labour party conference on the tele in the background and apparently when Labour get in to no10 and Old McDonnell is in no11 he says we are all going to be on a 32 hour week with a minimum of £10 an hour pay how wonderful is that going to be but if you are a realist you know its not going to work, he says it will be funded by increased taxes presumably on the rich as otherwise there would be no point to the exercise. think he has forgotten that companies may not go along with his ideas and move abroad.
Never ceases to amaze me what they preach to the gullable when there is a general election on the horizon, why don’t they just say life is going to be harder so tighten your belts that way no one ends up disappointed. Buzzer
There’s nothing wrong with a 32 hour week this is the 21st Century not the 19th and taxes don’t fund wages.However this is the same muppet who wants to stay in the EU single ( Free ) labour market and allow the free movement of Capital around Europe and all subject to free competition laws.What could possibly go wrong.So we end up swamped with more East Euro labour while at the same time what industry we have left moves to cheaper parts of Europe.
Pardon me but did they not they try a 38hr week in France and that never worked out either and they all want to retire at 55 too so is that where our 250mil a week goes to fund EU ideas like this because of course they have the right.
Buzzer:
While pickling shallots today I had the Labour party conference on the tele in the background and apparently when Labour get in to no10 and Old McDonnell is in no11 he says we are all going to be on a 32 hour week with a minimum of £10 an hour pay how wonderful is that going to be but if you are a realist you know its not going to work, he says it will be funded by increased taxes presumably on the rich as otherwise there would be no point to the exercise. think he has forgotten that companies may not go along with his ideas and move abroad.
Never ceases to amaze me what they preach to the gullable when there is a general election on the horizon, why don’t they just say life is going to be harder so tighten your belts that way no one ends up disappointed. Buzzer
There’s nothing wrong with a 32 hour week this is the 21st Century not the 19th and taxes don’t fund wages.However this is the same muppet who wants to stay in the EU single ( Free ) labour market and allow the free movement of Capital around Europe and all subject to free competition laws.What could possibly go wrong.So we end up swamped with more East Euro labour while at the same time what industry we have left moves to cheaper parts of Europe.
Pardon me but did they not they try a 38hr week in France and that never worked out either and they all want to retire at 55 too so is that where our 250mil a week goes to fund EU ideas like this because of course they have the right.
Wasn’t the WTD supposed to keep working hours down but then they invented POA because they realised it was totally unworkable and clashed with tacho laws ffs, who can live off £320 gross a week , tax the rich and they move out. 32 hours a week would no doubt be over 7 days on shifts no thanks even if i could afford to.
Buzzer:
There’s nothing wrong with a 32 hour week this is the 21st Century not the 19th and taxes don’t fund wages.However this is the same muppet who wants to stay in the EU single ( Free ) labour market and allow the free movement of Capital around Europe and all subject to free competition laws.What could possibly go wrong.So we end up swamped with more East Euro labour while at the same time what industry we have left moves to cheaper parts of Europe.
Pardon me but did they not they try a 38hr week in France and that never worked out either and they all want to retire at 55 too so is that where our 250mil a week goes to fund EU ideas like this because of course they have the right.
Wasn’t the WTD supposed to keep working hours down but then they invented POA because they realised it was totally unworkable and clashed with tacho laws ffs, who can live off £320 gross a week , tax the rich and they move out. 32 hours a week would no doubt be over 7 days on shifts no thanks even if i could afford to.
[/quote]
Why are you applying such a blinkered view of the potential shift patterns to meet that.As opposed to a 3 or 4 day week and employ more people.Labour supply goes down wages then increase.
Brit working class wanting the maximum hours possible done by the fewest possible workers are the definition of turkeys voting for Christmas.On that note prepare for a Labour government if that’s the best that you have to offer.Bearing in mind that Brexit is now all over bar the shouting and unless the military want to take on parliament.
, and depending on which pointless leader the tories had ruining the ship at the time, would see hundreds of Majorets or hundreds more Cameron cohorts from Oxbridge or the Cotwolds croquet/polo lawns, and as Cameron was a Blair disciple the country would permanently become a Blair regime dynasty, with no way of getting rid of them, difficult enough its proving anway, what with the quality of the leaderships that have followed.
