Rob K:
Yorkielad:
If he hasn’t signed anything they cannot just change your terms and conditions as they like,every company in the land would if this was the case.Yes they can. See my earlier post.
A employer can change a contract with the agreement of the employee.
No employees in this case have agreed to changes.
Rjan:
Rob K:
robroy:
At my firm we all signed a Contract of Employment on starting.
About 5 yrs later they brought out a new revised version which included charging drivers for damage.
I, and a couple of others refused to sign it, and made it crystal clear why.
Nothing happened until recently and they are now deducting money from some driver’s wages, one of which who did not sign the new contract, and who sustained damage which was unavoidable,.agreed by a compliance type guy, (after an enquiry )who has now left.
It was trailer damage done by a overhanging thick hidden tree branch, which was backed up by photo evidence of the location of the incident, clearly showing the impact was unavoidable.
In this case what does the law say about this?
Is this legal?Refusing to sign a new/changed employment contract does not mean you are not bound by its terms. Quite the contrary in fact. If you do not submit a formal grievance in writing within a reasonable time period then from a legal standpoint you are deemed to have implied acceptance of the new or amended terms of employment if you continue to work for the company. Just saying verbally to your manager that don’t accept the changes is not sufficient for any recourse. It has to be a formal grievance which the company has to act upon and respond to with their decision. If the company does not uphold your grievance then you choice is either to continue to work for them whereby you are deemed to have accepted the new or amended terms of employment, or, you resign and you take them to court for constructive dismissal.
It is possible for terms to be accepted by implication, but that doesn’t mean that they must be. If you reject the terms verbally in no uncertain language to a manager, that is just as good as rejecting them in writing. It might be different if you accept a written notice but simply fail to sign and return it, without raising any objection at all to anybody - then that might be considered implied acceptance.
And there is no “decision” for them to make on the grievance. You have simply rejected a proposed change in the terms - it would be for them to show that you declaring openly “No, I’m not having it” was an implied acceptance. The only reason you would raise a grievance is if you were asserting that the very attempt to change the terms was a shocking act which undermined the relationship - many workers might just take the view that their managers are trying their luck rather than launching an assault on their legal rights.
In an employment contract the company is obliged to offer work and you are obliged to do it. You can continue working essentially until the bosses lock you out, provided you make it clear that you are proceeding on that basis - and if they don’t lock you out, then they have folded and things go on as before, under the existing terms.
Companies do not have the right to vary the terms of an employment contract at will. Unilateral changes could well fail for “total failure of consideration”. They cannot argue that continuing to supply you with work (and pay) is consideration, because you were already entitled to that under the existing contract.
The time period between when the amended contract of employment was brought in and when the tree branch incident happened is important. If the driver did not put a formal grievance in writing (so as to have evidence of it with a copy of his own) and the change in employment happened months/years ago rather than weeks then good luck trying to win your case in court for the deductions. My opinion (note the word) is that by merely making some grumbling noises and then carrying on, the company will see that as implied acceptance.
The best people to advise on this are ACAS.
Yorkielad:
Rob K:
Yorkielad:
If he hasn’t signed anything they cannot just change your terms and conditions as they like,every company in the land would if this was the case.Yes they can. See my earlier post.
A employer can change a contract with the agreement of the employee.
No employees in this case have agreed to changes.
You’re talking rubbish and not read any of the posts in this thread. 
Unless it’s a job you love dearly or can’t get similar money for what’s entailed I would say goodbye. Telling them why. Everyone has accidents to some degree. If it’s a regular occurrence then warn them or get rid. If it’s due to negligence warning first. Just taking money is taking the pi$$.
Stop the world I want to get off…
Sent from my SM-J510FN using Tapatalk
Some firms, and I worked for one for a while, pay a monthly bonus which is forfeit if there is any damage. This gets around the idea that they are deducting wages because they are simply not paying a bonus.
The basic point is they cannot take anything without your agreement
That is law absolute
Rob K:
Yorkielad:
Rob K:
Yorkielad:
If he hasn’t signed anything they cannot just change your terms and conditions as they like,every company in the land would if this was the case.Yes they can. See my earlier post.
A employer can change a contract with the agreement of the employee.
No employees in this case have agreed to changes.You’re talking rubbish and not read any of the posts in this thread.
I read all the threads,I also took the time to read the GOV website on changes to contract of employment before I posted
Yorkielad:
If he hasn’t signed anything they cannot just change your terms and conditions as they like,every company in the land would if this was the case.
[…]
I read all the threads,I also took the time to read the GOV website on changes to contract of employment before I posted
[/quote]
The .gov page you refer to makes no mention of your original statement. Stop making stuff up. The company can make any changes they want and employees do not have to sign or agree to them. By not doing can result in a number of different outcomes, depending on what the specifics of the changes are and other factors.
I was overpaid £300 + last month and the company wrote to me telling me that they were taking it back the following month. They didn’t seek my agreement or permission to do so as they don’t have to.
TomCrin:
I was overpaid £300 + last month and the company wrote to me telling me that they were taking it back the following month. They didn’t seek my agreement or permission to do so as they don’t have to.
Totally different as they are recovering money you should not have had in the first place
robroy:
At my firm we all signed a Contract of Employment on starting.
About 5 yrs later they brought out a new revised version which included charging drivers for damage.
I, and a couple of others refused to sign it, and made it crystal clear why.
Nothing happened until recently and they are now deducting money from some driver’s wages, one of which who did not sign the new contract, and who sustained damage which was unavoidable,.agreed by a compliance type guy, (after an enquiry )who has now left.
It was trailer damage done by a overhanging thick hidden tree branch, which was backed up by photo evidence of the location of the incident, clearly showing the impact was unavoidable.
In this case what does the law say about this?
Is this legal?
My understanding, having been through a couple of enforced contract changes in the past. Ill check with my girlfriend (hr officer) in the morning.
A company can “ask” you to sign a new contract at anytime and you are free to refuse and that is the end of the matter.
A company can “enforce” changes to your terms and conditions but needs to consult with the affected employees to explain the reason for changes and how they are affected. At this point you are still free to refuse however you should be issued with “contractual notice” as your current terms are ending. At the end of the notice period your are viewed as having resigned. If this had been enforced they wouldn’t still be there.
It sounds to me that they have “asked” but not “enforced”. They are now chancing their arm, or the person doing the deduction doesn’t actually know your mate hasn’t signed. They may have been told that its in the contract. At the minute I think this is a straight illegal deduction of wages as there is no “signed contract” allowing it. Speak to ACAS but I expect you will be told to put in a grievance, appeal and then go tribunal.
The deduction of monies from an employee without consent, is illegal, regardless of the circumstances. Fact.
Ken.
I refer the honourable gentleman to the post I made earlier.
Do not sign ANYTHING unless it is your initial contract of employment, or applying for a mortgage.
Would you give a burglar permission to clean out your house? Once permission is given, that is exactly what they would do after all.
Never “sign up” to “Decriminalized Theft”. 
If a prospective employer had a “pay for own damage” clause in it, then I would demand at least “£30ph, no deductions for meal breaks” to compensate for my increased risk.
They’d refuse point blank of course - and so must YOU with all attempts to fleece the incoming newbie.
Quinny:
The deduction of monies from an employee without consent, is illegal, regardless of the circumstances. Fact.Ken.
It might be illegal, but once the money is taken - just you try and get the firm into court to get it back!
Here`s a couple of links
legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/19 … y-employer
gov.uk/understanding-your-p … m-your-pay
Extracting from these (always risky taking things out of context, I know).
In this section “relevant provision”, in relation to a worker’s contract, means a provision of the contract comprised—
(a)in one or more written terms of the contract of which the employer has given the worker a copy on an occasion prior to the employer making the deduction in question, or
(b)in one or more terms of the contract (whether express or implied and, if express, whether oral or in writing) the existence and effect, or combined effect, of which in relation to the worker the employer has notified to the worker in writing on such an occasion.
A deduction cannot normally reduce your pay below the National Minimum Wage even if you agree to it, except if the deduction is for:
tax or National Insurance
something you’ve done and your contract says you’re liable for it, eg a shortfall in your till if you work in a shop
repayment of a loan or advance of wages
repayment of an accidental overpayment of wages
buying shares or share options in the business
accommodation provided by your employer
your own use, eg union subscriptions or pension contributions
Enough there to keep Rumpole in Chateau Thames Embankment for a while?
Winseer:
Quinny:
The deduction of monies from an employee without consent, is illegal, regardless of the circumstances. Fact.Ken.
It might be illegal, but once the money is taken - just you try and get the firm into court to get it back!
Small Claims Court.
Sounds like a crap employer I’d vote with my feet
As has been stated any disagreement with contractual variations need to be raised immediately, ideally in writing (I don’t agree that verbal complaints are enough with employment contracts).
Due to ‘implied acceptance’ one should also follow this up with attempts to resolve the issue in writing, it’s not possible to just work ‘under protest’ for years.
Without seeing the contract I’m unable to apply my own tests as to how reasonable the ‘liability for damage’ clause is but my highly trained legal brain is screeming ‘unfair contract terms act’ due to a contractual term that causes such a massive liability shift from employer to employee. However my 3 minutes of research has been unable to uncover any similar legal cases especially as I was sidetracked by some dodgy ■■■■.
Such a shift in liability needs looking into, is there limits on culpability and amount.
If damage occurs following employers directions has the employer done enough to protect the employee and their property.
Basically as an armchair lawyer and internet pervert I would recommend a call to ACAS, following this up could be expensive but not impossible.
As far as illegal deduductions from wages goes, this doesn’t apply yet.
Call your union , that’s what they are there for.
e.g. URTU
I worked for a firm that paid a compliance bonus.
It was only ever deducted from weak people though.
I had my own contract.
No bonus on Friday…no driver on Monday.
Worked splendidly,for me.