I worked for Southern BRS in Suffolk within the depots at Ipswich, Stowmarket and Bury St. Edmunds. Head office was at Potters Bar and I think they mostly bought locally built lorries; AEC, Scammell and Bedford. The Celotex contract out of Hadliegh, based at Ipswich, was all Bedfords pulling curtainsider trailers which were a new thing back in the early 70s. The only Fodens were a couple of Mickey Mouse cabbed 8 wheel sugar tankers in the blue livery of British Sugar Corporation.
My time at BRS Newark saw the older Seddons,AEC Mercury and Mandators,and GuyBigJs start to be replaced by Crusaders(no sleeper cabs.)
I transferred to Nottingham a litle later when they started operating some Scania 110s.That was around early 1970s.
According to Nick Baldwins book The History of BRS there was some involvement in the T45 Roadtrain as early as 1974. The MD of Leyland Desmond Pitcher called in the NFC to help with their then secret T45 project, this consisted of the Chief Engineer of the NFC, three of his colleagues plus two BRS Managing Directors and eight drivers from various locations. After unsatisfactory results from the fixed head 500 engine a Turbocharged and redesigned version of the AEC 760 engine was used, which we got to know as the TL12. Ten years before an O.680 Leyland engine had been turbocharged by BRS and put into three Bristol HA’s and three Beavers so the potential was known. BRS men provided info for mods and improvements through three ‘driver clinics’ which were incorporated into the design and finally main British and Foreign rivals were brought together with several Roadtrains for evaluation by the BRS team and the T45 was found to be superior on all counts so production went ahead. The cab caused some controversy at Leyland they wanted a much more aggressive design but the NFC team decided they would give more consideration to purchasing the Roadtrain if it kept its Motor Panels/Ogle Cab as changing public attitudes to HGV’s meant this cab gave a softer less aggressive look. (I personally thought the cab was bland and lacking character) As for the period 62-72 there were 1967-68 Foden tractors used by Northeastern BRS, the book shows one at the LDoY event at Leeds in 1973. Franky.
I would also add that in the late 60’s the almost universal BRS artics were AEC, Seddon and GUY with mainly AEC engines as the BRS Fleet Engineer at the time preferred the AEC engine to the Gardner, so possibly a reason Atkinson and Foden were not so prominent in BRS purchasing at that time. Franky.
Frankydobo:
According to Nick Baldwins book The History of BRS there was some involvement in the T45 Roadtrain as early as 1974. The MD of Leyland Desmond Pitcher called in the NFC to help with their then secret T45 project, this consisted of the Chief Engineer of the NFC, three of his colleagues plus two BRS Managing Directors and eight drivers from various locations. After unsatisfactory results from the fixed head 500 engine a Turbocharged and redesigned version of the AEC 760 engine was used, which we got to know as the TL12. Ten years before an O.680 Leyland engine had been turbocharged by BRS and put into three Bristol HA’s and three Beavers so the potential was known. BRS men provided info for mods and improvements through three ‘driver clinics’ which were incorporated into the design and finally main British and Foreign rivals were brought together with several Roadtrains for evaluation by the BRS team and the T45 was found to be superior on all counts so production went ahead. The cab caused some controversy at Leyland they wanted a much more aggressive design but the NFC team decided they would give more consideration to purchasing the Roadtrain if it kept its Motor Panels/Ogle Cab as changing public attitudes to HGV’s meant this cab gave a softer less aggressive look. (I personally thought the cab was bland and lacking character) As for the period 62-72 there were 1967-68 Foden tractors used by Northeastern BRS, the book shows one at the LDoY event at Leeds in 1973. Franky.
That explains why the development of the T45 took so long… designing by committee is never the best way of doing things. The TL12 engine was entirely an AEC led project that started in 1972, no input from BRS or any other organization, and the failure of the fixed head 500 had no bearing on the reason for the TL12 at all. Mr Baldwin is very wrong if he has written that in his history of BRS.
Edit to add: Mr Baldwin has probably got his “TLs” confused. It was the Leyland O.680 that was hastily re-engineered into a lightly turbo-charged TL11 to replace the headless wonder 500 engine. It was realized from the outset that the O.680 could not be developed to give the higher power output potential of a turbo-charged AEC 760.
gingerfold:
Dennis Javelin:
Suedehead:
There were a few Fodens based at the Swindon depot on the UBM/Glaseal contract.I appreciate all the replies that are being given but the period I am concentrating on is 62-72. Does anyone have any information on how many (if any) Atkinson and Foden tractor units were purchased during these dates. This was a time of huge change in the haulage industry with the move away from 8 wheelers to artics. All the Foden pics are from mid/late 70’s.
I can’t give an answer about Foden, as they were a reasonable sized company in the period you are interested in, so there must have been another reason apart from price and lead times for delivery. Atkinson (and ERF) in the early 60’s were still relatively small producers in terms of annual chassis built, so lead times from order would have been a problem. On the other hand BRS had an agreement with AEC, for example, that they bought directly from the factory and not through a dealership or regional depot. The agreement also allowed BRS to place orders as and when they required the vehicles no matter how busy the factory was. They were built on receipt of order. Harold Wood was another important customer with this facilty and there was a well-documented order for 43 Mammoth Major Mk.V eight-wheelers that were built on a weekend (overtime shifts) for Harold Wood.
Graham, Thats intresting to read that BRS and Harold Wood could order direct from the factory. I wonder what they saved by not buying via
a dealer.
With regard to the original question.
In 1964 BRS operated a fleet of 16,000 vehicles ranging from small vans to artics across all its various intrests. At that time it was the
largest haulage concern in the western hemisphere, and the largest secion was general haulage. This fleet consisted of 7500 vehicles
and AEC was the main manufacturer used for vehicles over 12 tons with 2,000 in the (7500) fleet.
550 4 wheel rigids of the Mercury type, 500 8 wheelers and 950 medium and heavy duty tractors of the Mercury and Mandator types.
In 1964 they ordered 400 AEC’s which were mainly tractor units.
I think that many large ‘bulk buying’ companies bought direct from the maker Dean? Certainly Tilcon did with Fodens, well actually via North Riding Garages that the Tilling Group owned anyway, and possibly Tarmac were the same through Brownhills Commercials? You get good discounts that way as well, Tilcon reckoned they would get at least one eight wheeler cost free on a large order. No doubt BRS would have done even better than that.
Pete.
DEANB:
gingerfold:
Dennis Javelin:
Suedehead:
There were a few Fodens based at the Swindon depot on the UBM/Glaseal contract.I appreciate all the replies that are being given but the period I am concentrating on is 62-72. Does anyone have any information on how many (if any) Atkinson and Foden tractor units were purchased during these dates. This was a time of huge change in the haulage industry with the move away from 8 wheelers to artics. All the Foden pics are from mid/late 70’s.
I can’t give an answer about Foden, as they were a reasonable sized company in the period you are interested in, so there must have been another reason apart from price and lead times for delivery. Atkinson (and ERF) in the early 60’s were still relatively small producers in terms of annual chassis built, so lead times from order would have been a problem. On the other hand BRS had an agreement with AEC, for example, that they bought directly from the factory and not through a dealership or regional depot. The agreement also allowed BRS to place orders as and when they required the vehicles no matter how busy the factory was. They were built on receipt of order. Harold Wood was another important customer with this facilty and there was a well-documented order for 43 Mammoth Major Mk.V eight-wheelers that were built on a weekend (overtime shifts) for Harold Wood.
Graham, Thats intresting to read that BRS and Harold Wood could order direct from the factory. I wonder what they saved by not buying via
a dealer.With regard to the original question.
In 1964 BRS operated a fleet of 16,000 vehicles ranging from small vans to artics across all its various intrests. At that time it was the
largest haulage concern in the western hemisphere, and the largest secion was general haulage. This fleet consisted of 7500 vehicles
and AEC was the main manufacturer used for vehicles over 12 tons with 2,000 in the (7500) fleet.550 4 wheel rigids of the Mercury type, 500 8 wheelers and 950 medium and heavy duty tractors of the Mercury and Mandator types.
In 1964 they ordered 400 AEC’s which were mainly tractor units.
Harold Wood did have its own AEC dealerships known as CV, by the mid-1960s, so did he then buy through his own dealerships■■?
Dealerships say that their profit margin on new trucks is small, and the selling price (although very few companies buy trucks outright these days) is dictated by the manufacturer anyway. Dealerships make their profits on the R&M deals, servicing, spares etc. Manufacturers have three tiers of discount; maximum for the big orders, intermediate for a buyer for say 50 trucks, and small for someone ordering two or three. Whatever selling price the manufacturer decides, then the dealership will be told to put 3 or 4% margin onto that.
Tidderson , in the early 80s/90s we only had one contract Foden ,it was top spec for its time with a 290 ■■■■■■■ in and was bought for the servis pak contract ,later when they replaced it with a 93 Scania the Foden ended its days back at Oxford on the general haulage fleet ,but it was not liked and ended up quickly as a shunter,photo attached ,parked outside the paintshop at the Oxford depot.
Also we inherited two day cabbed Fodens from Swindon with 180 Gardners in ,now they were dogs and every one refused to even shunt with them ,photo attached ,parked around the back of the Halls brewery contract warehouse.
1
Re; PDU 314M was indeed a lorry and trailer outfit of Lathams, (close coupled) and driven by a family friend Brian Evans.
My Dad having moved from BRS general over to the newly formed car delivery section (Coventry), would sometime if cars were slack or more likley on strike, would deliver on trade plates new Atkinson Units to Linlithgow Depot.
I worked at the BRS Douglas Group at Port Dundas, Glasgow (Depot Code BB) in the late 60’s/early 70’s until the depot closed. The first artic unit (24tgtw I think) I had there was an Atkinson (Not familiar with the models but these had a single headlight) with an AEC engine, it also had vacuum braking for the older trailers as well as air braking. I can’t remember how many we had had, somewhere in my desk I have a list of Douglas Group vehicles that John Mollett of Leeds, a BRS enthusiast, gave me and I’ll look it out.
When that old Atki went I had a similar one which did not have the facility of vacuum braking.
AEC was the prominant engine in the lighter vehicles including my 3rd vehicle, a Seddon 13:4, we also had a Guy Big J on the Stranraer Trunk with a tilt for Containerway, this also had an AEC engine.
We also had a 6 wheel Foden flat which originally was in the fleet of Gavin Wilkie of Glasgow, that firm was absorbed into BRS/Pickfords.
Hope this information is helpful
Alex