Brexiteers against free movement?

Harry Monk:

Rjan:

Harry Monk:

Rjan:
It is said that Brexit has already started to deter Eastern Europeans from temporary working in Britain.

So what do the Tories do as soon as it looks like the settled worker in Britain might be in line for better wages on farms? Open the doors to cheap Russian and Ukrainian workers:

theguardian.com/business/20 … te-germany

If you had actually taken the time to have read the article, you would have seen that the main issues keeping eastern Europeans away are increased wages for fruit picking in Germany and strengthened economies in their own countries

I agree that was also mentioned, but it doesn’t really have a bearing - the key point is that, whatever reason for the abating inward flow, the Tories do something to increase it again, despite their positioning as an anti-immigrant party who want to bring numbers down.

Then the obvious thing to do is to support the Brexit party.

What, and support a different clutch of radical right-wingers, including Farage who wants to privatise the NHS?

Honestly I ask you, when did that wing of politicians ever act to increase your pay, job security, or rights at work? Their reasons for wanting to leave the EU are completely unrelated to why the working man might wish to do so.

Rjan:

Harry Monk:
Then the obvious thing to do is to support the Brexit party.

What, and support a different clutch of radical right-wingers, including Farage who wants to privatise the NHS?

Honestly I ask you, when did that wing of politicians ever act to increase your pay, job security, or rights at work? Their reasons for wanting to leave the EU are completely unrelated to why the working man might wish to do so.

Yes but first we have to get the country back out of the hands of the EU commission elites before we can then have the argument about how we want to run the country.Bearing in mind that Socialism isn’t the answer in either case.

As for the NHS what is it other than just a form of rationing more to the advantage of those who you are supposedly against.IE the best way of extracting money from the employer classes is in the form of wages and corporate taxation ring fenced for health care costs.We ain’t going to get that by more of the same conflict of interest in which the government controls both the health care provision side of the equation and the means of paying for it.With the inevitable priority always being on the side of minimisng the ultimate cost to the wage and tax payer at the expense of the health care consumer.On that note it seems strange how those who are so keen on the EU don’t seem so keen on a German style health service.Not that it makes any difference in either case when we don’t have the industry to pay the wages or taxes in question and the country is crippled under the weight of its EU trade deficit and net contribution.

As for the Brexit Party so tell us what happened to the Bennite/Shoreite/Hefferite faction of the Labour Party to oppose Thatcherites and Blairites ?.Bearing in mind that Farage can’t possibly be anything other than an establishment plant based on the laughable oxymoron of a supposed Thatcherite Eurosceptic.When Thatcher was a pivotal player in our EU membership.

Franglais:
I’ll see if you accept my previous reply before expanding my answer, if you want? I don’t want to woffle on if you don’t.

Yes I read it but the issue doesn’t just affect continental work, but wages in the UK transport sector in general.

Do you think this may be because cheap labour from countries with post-Communist economies may have kept pay rates down in a supply and demand economy?

OK.
I could give a few quick answers which won’t get us anywhere much, so I’ll try to give a longer answer. Forums aren’t the place for me to make the first draft of my “Plan For A New Order*” but I will to answer a bit later.
,
,
*Good job too, I ain’t got one.

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Franglais:
OK.
I could give a few quick answers which won’t get us anywhere much, so I’ll try to give a longer answer.

You don’t need to give a longer answer. Your wages have stagnated since 2004 and will crash completely if Turkey and Ukraine ever join the eu, which is the eventual aim of the eu.

I mean, apart from the longer term issues about the inevitability of war with Russia- which annexed eastern Ukraine purely because of eu encroachment into their former territories- are you happy with your wage stagnation or not?

Harry Monk:

Franglais:
OK.
I could give a few quick answers which won’t get us anywhere much, so I’ll try to give a longer answer.

You don’t need to give a longer answer. Your wages have stagnated since 2004 and will crash completely if Turkey and Ukraine ever join the eu, which is the eventual aim of the eu.

I mean, apart from the longer term issues about the inevitability of war with Russia- which annexed eastern Ukraine purely because of eu encroachment into their former territories- are you happy with your wage stagnation or not?

Maybe I should have given a quicker answer.
I might have got it in before your retort!

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Franglais:

Harry Monk:

Franglais:
OK.
I could give a few quick answers which won’t get us anywhere much, so I’ll try to give a longer answer.

You don’t need to give a longer answer. Your wages have stagnated since 2004 and will crash completely if Turkey and Ukraine ever join the eu, which is the eventual aim of the eu.

I mean, apart from the longer term issues about the inevitability of war with Russia- which annexed eastern Ukraine purely because of eu encroachment into their former territories- are you happy with your wage stagnation or not?

Maybe I should have given a quicker answer.
I might have got it in before your retort!

By all means give as long and detailed an answer as you want, but please just restrict yourself to the point I’m asking you about, namely how do you feel about your wages having not risen in line with inflation for some 15 years now due to the 2004 and 2007 eu expansions?

One of the spin offs to the Schengen open door Treaty was the supply of cheap labour and businesses obviously took full advantage of that. In a supply and demand economy, if the supply of anything exceeds demand the price will always fall. It’s why we have the minimum wage to stop the price of labour falling to East European levels. Britain has never had a shortage of workers, it’s had a shortage of those willing to work because we have a welfare system based on relative poverty (compared to average incomes). In other words, if you’re offering a job you’d have to subtract from that what you get if you don’t work and for many what is left is simply not worth working for. Cheap foreign labour fulfills the resulting demand.

The problem is that the west not only relies on the supply and demand inherent within capitalism, but that also prices people out of society as everyone is seeking maximum profit and why we get this endless waffle about making Britain a ‘stakeholder’ society, which never happens.

The Chinese have an alternative system. The government subsidizes and sets the prices for basic essentials such as accommodation, food, utilities, transport … and so even the lowest paid worker can afford to live. As people rise in the workplace, their salary increases and they want the non-essential luxuries that go with it. So prices of computers, house buying, cars, holidays … Attract a high rate of tax. It’s this tax that subsidizes the basic essentials available to everyone. Income tax is very low because there’s no need for a mass welfare system and although the Chinese use capitalism to produce wealth, they’re very careful not to throw those profits away on trying to produce a relative equality between those that produce and those that don’t. It also means they’re not seeking an endless supply of labour because people don’t find it economically viable to work.

Grandpa:
One of the spin offs to the Schengen open door Treaty was the supply of cheap labour and businesses obviously took full advantage of that. In a supply and demand economy, if the supply of anything exceeds demand the price will always fall. It’s why we have the minimum wage to stop the price of labour falling to East European levels. Britain has never had a shortage of workers, it’s had a shortage of those willing to work because we have a welfare system based on relative poverty (compared to average incomes). In other words, if you’re offering a job you’d have to subtract from that what you get if you don’t work and for many what is left is simply not worth working for. Cheap foreign labour fulfills the resulting demand.

The problem is that the west not only relies on the supply and demand inherent within capitalism, but that also prices people out of society as everyone is seeking maximum profit and why we get this endless waffle about making Britain a ‘stakeholder’ society, which never happens.

The Chinese have an alternative system. The government subsidizes and sets the prices for basic essentials such as accommodation, food, utilities, transport … and so even the lowest paid worker can afford to live. As people rise in the workplace, their salary increases and they want the non-essential luxuries that go with it. So prices of computers, house buying, cars, holidays … Attract a high rate of tax. It’s this tax that subsidizes the basic essentials available to everyone. Income tax is very low because there’s no need for a mass welfare system and although the Chinese use capitalism to produce wealth, they’re very careful not to throw those profits away on trying to produce a relative equality between those that produce and those that don’t. It also means they’re not seeking an endless supply of labour because people don’t find it economically viable to work.

Let’s get this right we’ve got an over supplied labour market.So we reduce the already subsistence and effectively non existent social( ist ) security system even more thereby dumping even more often unfit or unsuited workers onto that already over supplied labour market.Then we reduce income tax even more removing more of the burden from those most able to pay it ( higher earners ) and dumping it on those least able to pay it ( lower earners ).Also a system in which the less consumer spending they do the less tax they get charged and pay.What could possibly go wrong.

Harry Monk:

Franglais:

Harry Monk:

Franglais:
OK.
I could give a few quick answers which won’t get us anywhere much, so I’ll try to give a longer answer.

You don’t need to give a longer answer. Your wages have stagnated since 2004 and will crash completely if Turkey and Ukraine ever join the eu, which is the eventual aim of the eu.

I mean, apart from the longer term issues about the inevitability of war with Russia- which annexed eastern Ukraine purely because of eu encroachment into their former territories- are you happy with your wage stagnation or not?

Maybe I should have given a quicker answer.
I might have got it in before your retort!

By all means give as long and detailed an answer as you want, but please just restrict yourself to the point I’m asking you about, namely how do you feel about your wages having not risen in line with inflation for some 15 years now due to the 2004 and 2007 eu expansions?

Yep. I’ll have a go in a bit. I promise not to mention too many extraneous subjects. The American Civil War won’t feature at all.

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Let’s get this right we’ve got an over supplied labour market.So we reduce the already subsistence and effectively non existent social( ist ) security system even more thereby dumping even more often unfit or unsuited workers onto that already over supplied labour market.Then we reduce income tax even more removing more of the burden from those most able to pay it ( higher earners ) and dumping it on those least able to pay it ( lower earners ).Also a system in which the less consumer spending they do the less tax they get charged and pay.What could possibly go wrong.

If we didn’t have open borders we wouldn’t have an oversaturated labour force which forces wages down. The high welfare states in the west spend hundreds of billions on welfare every year and then complain there’s a shortage of labour. That’s hardly surprising. Businesses avoiding paying taxes is a separate matter entirely.

Grandpa:

Let’s get this right we’ve got an over supplied labour market.So we reduce the already subsistence and effectively non existent social( ist ) security system even more thereby dumping even more often unfit or unsuited workers onto that already over supplied labour market.Then we reduce income tax even more removing more of the burden from those most able to pay it ( higher earners ) and dumping it on those least able to pay it ( lower earners ).Also a system in which the less consumer spending they do the less tax they get charged and pay.What could possibly go wrong.

If we didn’t have open borders we wouldn’t have an oversaturated labour force which forces wages down. The high welfare states in the west spend hundreds of billions on welfare every year and then complain there’s a shortage of labour. That’s hardly surprising. Businesses avoiding paying taxes is a separate matter entirely.

It’s obvious that you’ve got Tory style issues in calling income protection insurance provision so called ‘welfare’.All based on the typical Tory premise that someone who has shown that they have no problems with working for a living suddenly becomes a ‘scrounger’ just because they fall on hard times for whatever reason.On that note it ain’t welfare it’s the method by which we ‘should’ be replacing a person’s income if they can’t do their own job.In which case I’m guessing that you have no problems with train drivers or pilots retiring early through ill health and/or taking full advantage of their own private income protection policies in the case of unemployment etc in that regard ?.So why the double standards in the case of the National/Social security system ?.Which as it stands is just a rip off system of ridiculous premiums being charged for effectively useless substandard cover under the guise of calling claimants ‘scroungers’.

The fact is we’ve got more than enough labour.Even without the import of foreign labour AND without trying to force retired,unsuited and/or sick workers into the workplace,in an obvious attempt to create a pool of desperate take anything forced labour.

As for taxation it’s obvious that I was referring to the use of regressive,indirect taxes like VAT and Council Tax being used to reduce the direct ( income based ) tax burden on the highest earners.Ironically and no surprise that being a key policy used by the EU elites and even more ironically finding supporters among the so called ‘Labour’ Party rank and file.Obviously on the basis that the interests of Soviet style government is more important to them than looking after the interests of British workers.

On that note did you actually read the information I posted regarding JFK’s economic policies,including those regarding what you call so called ‘welfare’ and the type of economic growth figure that produced ?.

.

Carryfast:

It’s obvious that you’ve got Tory style issues in calling income protection insurance provision so called ‘welfare’.All based on the typical Tory premise that someone who has shown that they have no problems with working for a living suddenly becomes a ‘scrounger’ just because they fall on hard times for whatever reason.On that note it ain’t welfare it’s the method by which we ‘should’ be replacing a person’s income if they can’t do their own job.In which case I’m guessing that you have no problems with train drivers or pilots retiring early through ill health and/or taking full advantage of their own private income protection policies in the case of unemployment etc in that regard ?.So why the double standards in the case of the National/Social security system ?.Which as it stands is just a rip off system of ridiculous premiums being charged for effectively useless substandard cover under the guise of calling claimants ‘scroungers’.

The fact is we’ve got more than enough labour.Even without the import of foreign labour AND without trying to force retired,unsuited and/or sick workers into the workplace,in an obvious attempt to create a pool of desperate take anything forced labour.

As for taxation it’s obvious that I was referring to the use of regressive,indirect taxes like VAT and Council Tax being used to reduce the direct ( income based ) tax burden on the highest earners.Ironically and no surprise that being a key policy used by the EU elites and even more ironically finding supporters among the so called ‘Labour’ Party rank and file.Obviously on the basis that the interests of Soviet style government is more important to them than looking after the interests of British workers.

On that note did you actually read the information I posted regarding JFK’s economic policies,including those regarding what you call so called ‘welfare’ and the type of economic growth figure that produced ?.

Why do you keep calling a national social insurance scheme, ‘income protection’? Is it the current ‘in’ jargon? Social security was brought in after the war to alleviate absolute destitution via a personal insurance scheme. That it morphed into an equality based freebie lifestyle choice for many who didn’t pay in is why it’s falling apart. Ditto the NHS. It’s not that it’s short of funding, it’s that too many are using it and not paying. What was a national insurance scheme became an equality socialist entitlement and like all socialist schemes it finally ran out of money. It was during the EU years the emphasis on a ‘right to work’ became a ‘right to entitlements.’ Yes, I have no problem with train drivers or airline pilots taking early retirement because they’re claiming back from the insurance scheme they paid into for decades.

Work for those able to do so in any society is not a choice or option, it’s a necessity. No one is forcing the retired into work and work isn’t geared to suitability or preference like something you pick and choose on a menu. You go to work and earn a living and for those that cheer on an entitlement society, don’t complain that when you want to claim back what you’ve paid into you find there’s nothing left.

However, Brexit is not about a working class revolution, entitlements or government dependency, it’s about the right of the UK to determine its own future. If you want a government led equality entitlement society that tells you what you’re entitled to, then vote remain.

Grandpa:
Why do you keep calling a national social insurance scheme, ‘income protection’? Is it the current ‘in’ jargon? Social security was brought in after the war to alleviate absolute destitution via a personal insurance scheme. That it morphed into an equality based freebie lifestyle choice for many who didn’t pay in is why it’s falling apart. Ditto the NHS. It’s not that it’s short of funding, it’s that too many are using it and not paying. What was a national insurance scheme became an equality socialist entitlement and like all socialist schemes it finally ran out of money. It was during the EU years the emphasis on a ‘right to work’ became a ‘right to entitlements.’ Yes, I have no problem with train drivers or airline pilots taking early retirement because they’re claiming back from the insurance scheme they paid into for decades.

Work for those able to do so in any society is not a choice or option, it’s a necessity. No one is forcing the retired into work and work isn’t geared to suitability or preference like something you pick and choose on a menu. You go to work and earn a living and for those that cheer on an entitlement society, don’t complain that when you want to claim back what you’ve paid into you find there’s nothing left.

However, Brexit is not about a working class revolution, entitlements or government dependency, it’s about the right of the UK to determine its own future. If you want a government led equality entitlement society that tells you what you’re entitled to, then vote remain.

As I’ve said knock the whole social security scam on the head and replace it with private cover.Suddenly you’ve now got income protection cover which does what it says on the tin.With the bonus that claimants won’t be called scroungers.Rather than paying more in premiums for minimal cover which those with your views call the supposed alleviation of absolute destitution.While if no one is forcing the retired back into work then you’ll obviously have no problem with returning to a retirement age of 60 for women and 65 for men preferably less and restoring the link between retail price index and pension increases.Oh wait who needs that when we can have private pensions allowing retirement at 55 and just pass the required premiums on in the form of wage demands.You know like the highest earners do.

As for voting remain no it’s you who’s obviously pushing the Thatcherite line of jam for some at the expense of zb for others.Remind us what side she was on in the 1975 refrendum v Benn and Shore and Heffer. :unamused:

Carryfast:

Grandpa:
Why do you keep calling a national social insurance scheme, ‘income protection’? Is it the current ‘in’ jargon? Social security was brought in after the war to alleviate absolute destitution via a personal insurance scheme. That it morphed into an equality based freebie lifestyle choice for many who didn’t pay in is why it’s falling apart. Ditto the NHS. It’s not that it’s short of funding, it’s that too many are using it and not paying. What was a national insurance scheme became an equality socialist entitlement and like all socialist schemes it finally ran out of money. It was during the EU years the emphasis on a ‘right to work’ became a ‘right to entitlements.’ Yes, I have no problem with train drivers or airline pilots taking early retirement because they’re claiming back from the insurance scheme they paid into for decades.

Work for those able to do so in any society is not a choice or option, it’s a necessity. No one is forcing the retired into work and work isn’t geared to suitability or preference like something you pick and choose on a menu. You go to work and earn a living and for those that cheer on an entitlement society, don’t complain that when you want to claim back what you’ve paid into you find there’s nothing left.

However, Brexit is not about a working class revolution, entitlements or government dependency, it’s about the right of the UK to determine its own future. If you want a government led equality entitlement society that tells you what you’re entitled to, then vote remain.

As I’ve said knock the whole social security scam on the head and replace it with private cover.Suddenly you’ve now got income protection cover which does what it says on the tin.With the bonus that claimants won’t be called scroungers.Rather than paying more in premiums for minimal cover which those with your views call the supposed alleviation of absolute destitution.While if no one is forcing the retired back into work then you’ll obviously have no problem with returning to a retirement age of 60 for women and 65 for men preferably less and restoring the link between retail price index and pension increases.Oh wait who needs that when we can have private pensions allowing retirement at 55 and just pass the required premiums on in the form of wage demands.You know like the highest earners do.

As for voting remain no it’s you who’s obviously pushing the Thatcherite line of jam for some at the expense of zb for others.Remind us what side she was on in the 1975 refrendum v Benn and Shore and Heffer. :unamused:

We’ve never had national insurance ‘income protection’ in the UK, it’s a term, a phrase. If you’re on £400pw and suddenly become unemployed, social security does not protect your income, it protects you from absolute poverty with what the state gives you until you become employed again and that won’t be anywhere near £400pw. For the long term unemployed, what income they haven’t got are they supposed to be protected against?

The national insurance scheme didn’t supposedly alleviate absolute poverty, it was what it was set up to prevent. If you’ve ever read Orwell’s ‘The road to Wigan pier’, or ‘Down and out in Paris and London’, those kind of inter-war years of absolute destitution is what the NIS was set up to prevent.

I don’t have a problem with returning to a pension age of 65 and 60, the reason that it won’t happen is because too many people were dipping into the pot and there’s little left for those that paid into it. If people can afford a private or company pension, or healthcare, I’ve no problem with that. Likewise, if you earn more than me, or have a bigger house, or car, I’ve no problem with that either.

It’s nothing to do with Thatcher 40 years ago. It’s more to do with the more recent socialist focus on equality that took the money you paid in and gave it to the ones that didn’t and you’re now wondering where it has all gone. Did you know there are around 1.34m unemployed and nearly 6½m on some kind of benefit? Don’t complain there’s nothing left for you because that’s where your contributions went – to everyone else, comrade. :slight_smile:

Grandpa:

Carryfast:

We’ve never had national insurance ‘income protection’ in the UK, it’s a term, a phrase. If you’re on £400pw and suddenly become unemployed, social security does not protect your income, it protects you from absolute poverty with what the state gives you until you become employed again and that won’t be anywhere near £400pw.

In fact social security did used to protect your previous income. It was called the earnings-related supplement, and it was abolished by Thatcher in about 1982.

The basic dole by the 1970s was also worth about twice what it’s worth today in real terms, with considerably fewer hurdles and exceptions in practice. Though of course there were no in-work benefits and employers were expected to pay sufficient wages.

The reason people didn’t claim it unnecessarily was because why would you sit at home just making ends meet by scrounging when you could go to work and earn considerably more with dignity, or train for a trade, and do something useful with your time?

For the long term unemployed, what income they haven’t got are they supposed to be protected against?

The national insurance scheme didn’t supposedly alleviate absolute poverty, it was what it was set up to prevent. If you’ve ever read Orwell’s ‘The road to Wigan pier’, or ‘Down and out in Paris and London’, those kind of inter-war years of absolute destitution is what the NIS was set up to prevent.

There was dole in George Orwell’s era. In fact one thing he observed in the 30s that middle class people were complaining about the unemployed getting married and having children whilst on benefits, when in reality people simply had to get on with life.

And like today, a major part of the problem was the lack of jobs, the poor wages, and inadequate levels of social security that promoted squalor.

I don’t have a problem with returning to a pension age of 65 and 60, the reason that it won’t happen is because too many people were dipping into the pot and there’s little left for those that paid into it. If people can afford a private or company pension, or healthcare, I’ve no problem with that. Likewise, if you earn more than me, or have a bigger house, or car, I’ve no problem with that either.

It’s nothing to do with Thatcher 40 years ago. It’s more to do with the more recent socialist focus on equality that took the money you paid in and gave it to the ones that didn’t and you’re now wondering where it has all gone. Did you know there are around 1.34m unemployed and nearly 6½m on some kind of benefit? Don’t complain there’s nothing left for you because that’s where your contributions went – to everyone else, comrade. :slight_smile:

The reality is that most of the spare cash in the economy has gone increasingly to the rich, not to various benefit claimants. The slump in wages in the past 10 years under the Tories, has coincided with continued profitability for the rich.

It was the same in Orwell’s day.

The Earnings Related Supplement was a top up scheme for those who had paid contributions in the previous tax year and so got a little more when unemployed or sick. People did claim it.

There was a kind of means tested dole after 1931 (a maximum of 15 weeks), but until then if someone hadn’t contributed enough they got nothing and had to rely on charity.

You can’t compare those times with today, not by any stretch of the imagination. The days of the Jarrow hunger march and a time of practically no government involvement.

Yes, there’s no doubt the rich have plundered the economy; the bankers, politicians and corporations specifically, but it was socialism and the desire for equality that killed the working class. Any system that doesn’t differentiate between those that produce and those that don’t and tries to provide an entitlement lifestyle based on relative poverty will invariably fail. In other words, any welfare system must have a lower standard of living for the unemployed that don’t contribute than the minimum wage. The Tories aren’t responsible for the stagnation of wages, open borders and flooding the country with cheap labour; that started under Blair. BTW, I’m not a Tory, or Labour, I wouldn’t support either of them.

Grandpa:
We’ve never had national insurance ‘income protection’ in the UK, it’s a term, a phrase. If you’re on £400pw and suddenly become unemployed, social security does not protect your income, it protects you from absolute poverty with what the state gives you until you become employed again and that won’t be anywhere near £400pw. For the long term unemployed, what income they haven’t got are they supposed to be protected against?

The national insurance scheme didn’t supposedly alleviate absolute poverty, it was what it was set up to prevent. If you’ve ever read Orwell’s ‘The road to Wigan pier’, or ‘Down and out in Paris and London’, those kind of inter-war years of absolute destitution is what the NIS was set up to prevent.

I don’t have a problem with returning to a pension age of 65 and 60, the reason that it won’t happen is because too many people were dipping into the pot and there’s little left for those that paid into it. If people can afford a private or company pension, or healthcare, I’ve no problem with that. Likewise, if you earn more than me, or have a bigger house, or car, I’ve no problem with that either.

It’s nothing to do with Thatcher 40 years ago. It’s more to do with the more recent socialist focus on equality that took the money you paid in and gave it to the ones that didn’t and you’re now wondering where it has all gone. Did you know there are around 1.34m unemployed and nearly 6½m on some kind of benefit? Don’t complain there’s nothing left for you because that’s where your contributions went – to everyone else, comrade. :slight_smile:

Great so why would anyone want to pay more for effectively only being covered against ‘destitution’ and being paralysed from the neck down.When they can pay less for income protection insurance which covers unemployment or any type of illness stopping them doing their own job.You know just like the train drivers and pilots have and which you supposedly have no issues with them claiming on as and when they need to.

As for retirement make your mind up.First you’re saying that you have no problem with people retiring at 60-65.Then you say that too many are ‘dipping into the pot’,Yes obviously they are dipping into the pot because they’ve reached the bleedin age of 60-65. :unamused:

The fact is you’re just predictably using the National Insurance system as a political football to suit your own exploitative political prejudices and the irony is that the Labour movement hasn’t then met that by knocking the whole thing on the head and playing you at your own game.IE private insurance based income protection and retirement provision,‘regulated’/'recommended by the government and unions,to stop rip off abuses by the providers and wage demands tailored and ring fenced to pay for it.

At least until a point when we banish both the exploitative Thatcherite version of Capitalism and Socialism in favour of the type of progressive Fordist type Capitalist policies implemented by Kennedy in early 1960’s America.Oh wait suddenly Federalism doesn’t seem so bad after all given some clear level headed thinking at the top. :unamused:

Great so why would anyone want to pay more for effectively only being covered against ‘destitution’ and being paralysed from the neck down.When they can pay less for income protection insurance which covers unemployment or any type of illness stopping them doing their own job.You know just like the train drivers and pilots have and which you supposedly have no issues with them claiming on as and when they need to.

As for retirement make your mind up.First you’re saying that you have no problem with people retiring at 60-65.Then you say that too many are ‘dipping into the pot’,Yes obviously they are dipping into the pot because they’ve reached the bleedin age of 60-65. :unamused:

The fact is you’re just predictably using the National Insurance system as a political football to suit your own exploitative political prejudices and the irony is that the Labour movement hasn’t then met that by knocking the whole thing on the head and playing you at your own game.IE private insurance based income protection and retirement provision,‘regulated’/'recommended by the government and unions,to stop rip off abuses by the providers and wage demands tailored and ring fenced to pay for it.

At least until a point when we banish both the exploitative Thatcherite version of Capitalism and Socialism in favour of the type of progressive Fordist type Capitalist policies implemented by Kennedy in early 1960’s America.Oh wait suddenly Federalism doesn’t seem so bad after all given some clear level headed thinking at the top. :unamused:

You’re beginning to struggle Carryfast. :slight_smile: I said I have no problem with anyone claiming retirement at 60/65 if they’ve already been paying into the pot for decades. That’s completely different from people who claim and don’t pay in. I’m 100% for social security as a national insurance scheme, I’m against it being based on people helping themselves because they’re ‘entitled.’ I don’t have political prejudices, I detest all the main parties equally, but I’m also a realist. Private insurance is very different from government provided services. It wasn’t the rich that took your NI contribution money, it was successive socialist governments that decided someone else needed it more than you.

You will never take the exploitative content out of capitalism, it’s like having capitalism without private wealth ownership. Yet every country that abandoned capitalism or tried to use the profits of private wealth ownership to produce equality collapsed, without exception and capitalism was there long before Thatcher. You want progressivism? Do you know what progressivism really is if we take away the term ‘progress’ it disguises itself with?

https://hubpages.com/politics/The-Progressive-Movement

You’re never going to get your equal, fair and just society Carryfast, there’s no such thing and if you believe a government will make that kind of abstract a reality you’ll spend your life waiting for it to happen. If you look around the world today and look at what you have, you’re already in the 1%.