njl:
adam277:
This is going to get tasty.
What will the EU do? Impose a hard border?
It’s an interesting situation because neither side claim to want a hard border. Yet, the UK seem to be pushing the EU on things that will likely result in escalation.
Also from what I’ve seen of the EU they seem to care more about the ‘integrity of the EU’ if that is a thing then ensuring there is no border in NI.
Personally, I dont see why the Northern Ireland border is such a big issue with the EU. The European Union is perhaps the easiest place to get into in the world. Either through land or by sea.
Is the big problem with NI the good friday agreement? Although I think it’s been a while since any significant violent action from either side, I think both sides probably still have people and the means to escalate back to the bad times.
The issue is the EU want to stop the UK using NI as a backdoor into the common market. The only way they can do that is by imposing checks on the border between NI and Ireland. Which goes completely against the good friday agreement.
Tbh what I am thinking is happening is the UK is baiting EU to implement checks on the border of NI.
Would it make a good riddle for a Christmas cracker?
Q. When is a border, not a border?
A. Schrödinger.
njl:
adam277:
This is going to get tasty.
What will the EU do? Impose a hard border?
It’s an interesting situation because neither side claim to want a hard border. Yet, the UK seem to be pushing the EU on things that will likely result in escalation.
Also from what I’ve seen of the EU they seem to care more about the ‘integrity of the EU’ if that is a thing then ensuring there is no border in NI.
Personally, I dont see why the Northern Ireland border is such a big issue with the EU. The European Union is perhaps the easiest place to get into in the world. Either through land or by sea.
Is the big problem with NI the good friday agreement? Although I think it’s been a while since any significant violent action from either side, I think both sides probably still have people and the means to escalate back to the bad times.
Businesses, farms workers have used the open border for decades. It almost hasn’t existed for an age. Pre UK and Eire joining the Common Market it was quite open.
Trying to have a border there, apart from the politics, is turning the clocks back a century.
.
If there is:
No border between NI and UK.
No border between NI and Eire.
No border between Eire and other EU countries.
Where is the border between the UK and the EU?
.
Not only do the EU want to have a border, don’t the UK want a border too?
.
The agreement as signed was a fudge at best. It is not looking too clever, is it?
njl:
adam277:
This is going to get tasty.
What will the EU do? Impose a hard border?
It’s an interesting situation because neither side claim to want a hard border. Yet, the UK seem to be pushing the EU on things that will likely result in escalation.
Also from what I’ve seen of the EU they seem to care more about the ‘integrity of the EU’ if that is a thing then ensuring there is no border in NI.
Personally, I dont see why the Northern Ireland border is such a big issue with the EU. The European Union is perhaps the easiest place to get into in the world. Either through land or by sea.
Is the big problem with NI the good friday agreement? Although I think it’s been a while since any significant violent action from either side, I think both sides probably still have people and the means to escalate back to the bad times.
The Good Friday Agreement had nothing to with the EU and they certainly weren’t to interested in what was going on during the troubles it has just become a convenient stick to beat the UK with, except the threat of violence isn’t coming from the side that everyone predicted it would come from.
Whilst the agreement is not perfect it has massively scaled down the violence, most killings now are either inter paramilitary rivalry or people claiming to be getting rid of drug dealers. There have been over 150 para military killings since the GFA was signed with the numbers of those carrying out the killings split nearly 50/50 between Loyalist and Republicans, in comparison attacks carried out on the PSNI and prison service have been few and far between and apart from a couple pretty much unsuccessful. Shootings are a regular occurrence in Belfast and Derry and being carried out on an almost weekly basis in Derry mostly by Republican groups claiming to be acting as a self styled police force against anti-social behaviour and drug dealing.
Since the signing of the GFA there is now more segregation between the two communities and the so called peace walls have been slow to come down and in some areas new ones have been put up, until the political parties move away from Orange and Green politics nothing will fundamentally change
Franglais:
njl:
adam277:
This is going to get tasty.
What will the EU do? Impose a hard border?
It’s an interesting situation because neither side claim to want a hard border. Yet, the UK seem to be pushing the EU on things that will likely result in escalation.
Also from what I’ve seen of the EU they seem to care more about the ‘integrity of the EU’ if that is a thing then ensuring there is no border in NI.
Personally, I dont see why the Northern Ireland border is such a big issue with the EU. The European Union is perhaps the easiest place to get into in the world. Either through land or by sea.
Is the big problem with NI the good friday agreement? Although I think it’s been a while since any significant violent action from either side, I think both sides probably still have people and the means to escalate back to the bad times.
Businesses, farms workers have used the open border for decades. It almost hasn’t existed for an age. Pre UK and Eire joining the Common Market it was quite open.
Trying to have a border there, apart from the politics, is turning the clocks back a century.
.
If there is:
No border between NI and UK.
No border between NI and Eire.
No border between Eire and other EU countries.
Where is the border between the UK and the EU?
.
Not only do the EU want to have a border, don’t the UK want a border too?
.
The agreement as signed was a fudge at best. It is not looking too clever, is it?
The highlighted piece is crap pre free movement it was a manned border, yes it was a hard border to police but it was a border and from 1921 until free movement it was not a free movement border for goods hence the huge trade in smuggling, although people were free to move under the common movement agreement.
If you look at any map there is a border between Eire and N.I. now depending on your political persuasion depends on your attitude to it.
Turning the clocks back a century would ironically resolve the situation as there was no N.I. then
Mazzer2:
Franglais:
njl:
adam277:
This is going to get tasty.
What will the EU do? Impose a hard border?
It’s an interesting situation because neither side claim to want a hard border. Yet, the UK seem to be pushing the EU on things that will likely result in escalation.
Also from what I’ve seen of the EU they seem to care more about the ‘integrity of the EU’ if that is a thing then ensuring there is no border in NI.
Personally, I dont see why the Northern Ireland border is such a big issue with the EU. The European Union is perhaps the easiest place to get into in the world. Either through land or by sea.
Is the big problem with NI the good friday agreement? Although I think it’s been a while since any significant violent action from either side, I think both sides probably still have people and the means to escalate back to the bad times.
Businesses, farms workers have used the open border for decades. It almost hasn’t existed for an age. Pre UK and Eire joining the Common Market it was quite open.
Trying to have a border there, apart from the politics, is turning the clocks back a century.
.
If there is:
No border between NI and UK.
No border between NI and Eire.
No border between Eire and other EU countries.
Where is the border between the UK and the EU?
.
Not only do the EU want to have a border, don’t the UK want a border too?
.
The agreement as signed was a fudge at best. It is not looking too clever, is it?
The highlighted piece is crap pre free movement it was a manned border, yes it was a hard border to police but it was a border and from 1921 until free movement it was not a free movement border for goods hence the huge trade in smuggling, although people were free to move under the common movement agreement.
If you look at any map there is a border between Eire and N.I. now depending on your political persuasion depends on your attitude to it.
Turning the clocks back a century would ironically resolve the situation as there was no N.I. then
People were free to move, and isn’t one of the objectives of Brexit to stop that?
.
You’re right there wasn’t border there a century ago, it was a mere 99 and a bit years! [emoji3]
But a reversion to no border might not ensure a peaceful solution for all, now would it?
Mazzer - a question for you, something I’m not sure about:
The DUP & Co appear to have membership of the Union & the Union Jack as key elements of their existence.
If Scotland & Wales (at a minimum) got independence and rejoined the EU, would the DUP etc. look to England as their main partner??
And as a result where would the borders be & what flag would they align with ■■
whisperingsmith:
Mazzer - a question for you, something I’m not sure about:
The DUP & Co appear to have membership of the Union & the Union Jack as key elements of their existence.
If Scotland & Wales (at a minimum) got independence and rejoined the EU, would the DUP etc. look to England as their main partner??
And as a result where would the borders be & what flag would they align with ■■
To be honest I’m not sure, they are an odd bunch in my opinion, they claim that they want to be like the rest of the UK yet they are so different on so many things, gay rights and abortion being the main ones, so in that aspect they don’t have a lot in common with the UK as it is today. If they were a political party in the Great Britain then they would be further to the right and more conservative than any other party.
I think that their default setting would be to continue their support for the union or what would be left of it. Until they and to be fair Sinn Feinn as well, move away from the politics of religion each side will just entrench it’s position regardless of how ridiculous it either looks or is. Among the DUP’s more ■■■■■■■■ supporters the prospect of being part of the Republic is something they could never accept regardless of how beneficial it may be to them.
That’s more or less my take on it Mazzer.
BUT, from my experiences of the Province since the late 60s, things are so much better now.
On my last visit for Rugby a couple of years ago (Watching Cornish Pirates v Uster in the British & Irish Cup), the vibe was so much more relaxed than I’d ever experienced, almost transformational I would say.
Lets hope that continues for everyone’s benefit regardless of Creed, Colour, Politic, Gender(s) or ■■■■■■■■.
Franglais:
People were free to move, and isn’t one of the objectives of Brexit to stop that?
.
You’re right there wasn’t border there a century ago, it was a mere 99 and a bit years! [emoji3]
But a reversion to no border might not ensure a peaceful solution for all, now would it?
You cannot compare the Common Travel Agreement with the EU’s freedom of movement this has been in place since the formation of the Republic and under it people using it have different rights to other EU citizens who have used the more recent EU freedom of movement. You still do not need a passport to travel between the two countries and the agreement was never going to dissolved by Brexit.
As to peace with where the border lies, since 2016 all the talk was what the Republican paramilitary’s would do to the point where if they didn’t do something they would lose credibility, but no one looked at the other side of the coin as to what loyalist paramilitary’s would do, all the talk was about blowing up customs posts in South Armagh but as with a lot of things in N.I if you please or appease one side you invariably upset the other. One possible solution could be to allow then trade to continue as it was between N.I and GB as normal, but if a company was found to be using this as a back door into the EU then that company would face huge penalties such as the possiblity being closed down.
I find it a little bit sickening that since 2016 politicians who prior to the Brexit didn’t really give a toss if I couldn’t go about my daily life without the fear of being caught up in terrorist incident have suddenly put my welfare at the top of their agenda, they had 30 years of the troubles and 20 years of the GFA to do this and didn’t and in this I include British politicians as well as EU ones. I can’t remember one peace initiative being put forward by the EU, the peace came about after years of behind the scenes negotiations through go betweens in the British government and the paramilitaries and then publicly with huge support from the Clinton administration.
whisperingsmith:
That’s more or less my take on it Mazzer.
BUT, from my experiences of the Province since the late 60s, things are so much better now.
On my last visit for Rugby a couple of years ago (Watching Cornish Pirates v Uster in the British & Irish Cup), the vibe was so much more relaxed than I’d ever experienced, almost transformational I would say.
Lets hope that continues for everyone’s benefit regardless of Creed, Colour, Politic, Gender(s) or ■■■■■■■■.
Undoubtedly things have improved massively and now most people are more interested in normal politics ie education and health etc. There will always be people who hate from all sides, 7 years ago 3 “men” called my son and his friend Fenian F… he had to ask me what a Fenian was, on the plus side you could say it is a bit of progress that it wasn’t until he was 7 that he had to ask what a Fenian was.
Mazzer, since 1930-summat UK and Eire had a zero tariff agreement. The UK is not necessary having a zero tariff agreement with the EU.
What sort of border can you see working between NI and Eire, in the absence of a border between NI and mainland?
Franglais:
Mazzer, since 1930-summat UK and Eire had a zero tariff agreement. The UK is not necessary having a zero tariff agreement with the EU.
What sort of border can you see working between NI and Eire, in the absence of a border between NI and mainland?
I would leave it as it has been since partition, as I previously said whatever new system you bring in it is going to upset one side or the other.
Again as I previously said heavy sanctions against companies who flout the rules with regards to tariffs and trying to use Eire as a backdoor way into Europe.
Due to the politics of N.I. you are never going to find the perfect solution, flaws in the GFA mean that the two extreme parties will in all likelihood maintain power in the North for the foreseeable future. Is a return to wholesale violence likely? I doubt it as there is not the same level of public support for it as there has been in the past, but what would the EU’s reaction be to it’s inspection officials becoming targets as could happen. This could have been resolved quietly instead of becoming the mountain that it has it was always going to be an inflammatory issue but some of the rhetoric from both sides has been ridiculous without thinking of the implications in what they were saying.
Can`t do fancy links and all that stuff,but I see on Friday evenings RTE news,that 2 trailers full of Irish produce shipped direct to Dunkirk for a British store based in Brussels.
They normally get their supplies through Waitrose,but have now started getting it from Ireland,because of supply issues.three months in.
As an aside French exports have been hit also.
The French are rattled over Brexit.
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Monkey241:
As an aside French exports have been hit also.
The French are rattled over Brexit.
Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk
Trade is NOT just a zero sum game.
Both “sides” can lose. Or both sides can win.
I thought it was always clear that most EU countrys leaders thought Breixt would be bad for the EU and its members?
In my Spanish village I have two N.I. friends,one a protestant former police officer and another a catholic school headmaster.The latter won’t even come into a bar if the former is already there.Not a good sign for the future.
Gidders:
In my Spanish village I have two N.I. friends,one a protestant former police officer and another a catholic school headmaster.The latter won’t even come into a bar if the former is already there.Not a good sign for the future.
The RUC wasn’t an innocent party in the troubles especially before partition
Is it a red trailer or a yellow trailer today ?
whiplash:
Can`t do fancy links and all that stuff,but I see on Friday evenings RTE news,that 2 trailers full of Irish produce shipped direct to Dunkirk for a British store based in Brussels.
They normally get their supplies through Waitrose,but have now started getting it from Ireland,because of supply issues.three months in.
Is this it?
youtube.com/watch?v=InhQxhLa1BE