Brexit..more controversy/indecision!

David H:
To some operators the shortage is geographic. To others it’s a shortage of drivers with artic licences etc the reasons are numerous. There are also high maintenance operators that constantly turn over drivers due to low pay or poor conditions etc. Drivers generally work at these places until something better turns up.

Agencies have been known to literally bus drivers in and put them up away from home to service clients needs. Operators offering all ages ‘flatpack’ apprenticeships (holes already drilled, screws supplied with instructions provided lol) are another pointer towards a shortage – or rather operators securing their own future with full-time employees as opposed to relying on expensive agency drivers.

An actual ‘bums on seats’ driver shortage may not be critical yet but there are plenty of potential full-time jobs not being applied for. An operator can generally phone an agency and book a driver even at short notice. But there is a case for there being a shortage of drivers willing to be employed directly by operators.

After all, one of the main reasons why drivers defect to agencies is so the agency can set the driver up as limited company. Its not unknown for ex-employees to return to their previous employer as a limited company driver. Just how operators can justify paying an agency for the services of a limited company tax dodge that’s knowingly undermining their business is another pointer to the desperate lengths transport companies are going to stay in business. In doing so operators know they are upholding the very mechanism that’s reducing their full-time workforce. Operators are also aware that any pay rise they can offer employed drivers cannot compete with that earned by limited company drivers doing the same job.

The dilemma for operators is just how many limited company agency drivers would pack in altogether if HMRC outlawed the practice? Would limited company drivers used to the wage they can earn drop down to those on offer as a full-time employee?

Downton Transport recently reported taking a hit on profits due to their reliance on agency drivers. Ask them, they’ll tell you there’s a shortage of operator employed drivers. Its threadbare in places but there are also areas where the effect is not as visible. If you’re an operator with 400 trucks and you need 25 agency drivers every day then you’ll need some convincing that there isn’t a driver shortage.

I’m afraid I have a different perspective.

The reason drivers who are accustomed to agency work will not apply for full-time or permanent positions, is because they know the conditions under which the full-timers work, and they’re not willing to accept them. On an agency, it is the driver (to a large extent) who determines the days on which he works, the times at which he starts, and if he needs a day off at short notice then he can insist upon it, and if there is any nonsense then he can go elsewhere the next day.

It is also not unusual that if a smaller employer is considering taking on an agency driver, the employer expects there to be a significant drop in hourly rate rather than matching it more or less - this is when there is no question of the agency’s rate being any sort of premium rate, it is simply the going rate.

The idea that most drivers go to agencies simply because they offer limited company status I think is laughable - and most agencies pressure the driver to do so, not the other way around. In any case, that does not contribute to any shortage - it’s simply a different way of employing the same workforce. If an agency puts out the call for good permanent positions with a reputable employer, they’ll have no problem finding candidates. The reason employers cannot find those candidates for their own permanent offers is because guys are simply not having the pay and conditions offered.

Amongst leaving full-timers I’ve spoken to, none of them report leaving to go onto an agency - they say they’re leaving to go back into other trades they held previously, like mechanical fitting.

The fact that employers can still find drivers on agencies at short notice (i.e. the evening before a morning start) shows that there’s no shortage out there whatever.

Indeed, the sort of complaints I’ve heard is that bosses can’t fill the 1am start slot on the agency - when they’re only offering plain time. If you’ve got 400 trucks, the idea that you need 25 agency drivers every day is ludicrous - you need 25 additional full-timers. Indeed, a 6% variance in demand (if the 25 were not actually needed every day) could easily be handled with normal overtime, if the industry was not already generally thrashing it’s full-timers with overtime to begin with.

The truth about the “shortage” is that if it isn’t hurting it isn’t working. True shortage conditions will drive crap employers into bankruptcy and there will be a number of providers leaving the market, not simply tickling their feet with a few difficulties filling graveyard shifts, and drivers would be able to go knocking door to door and be immediately hired at the first one.

As for apprenticeships, the purpose of these is simply to reinforce the surplus (or stem it’s reduction somewhat), and there are significant tax breaks and government incentives available for running the schemes (even if the apprentice walks straight out the door at the end). Additionally, it’s purpose is political, to demonstrate that the industry is doing something about it’s own claimed shortage, after the MPs told the lobby groups to go and swivel when they went to Westminster with the begging bowl.

Also, in any industry, the existence of training schemes and apprenticeships is not evidence of a shortage - it is simply to replace natural wastage (deaths, sickness retirements, and so on). The fact that haulage had no such schemes for so long, shows the gravity of the surplus they have been working with.

I’d suggest that if any employer is taking a hit on profit because of its over-reliance on agency drivers, then it needs to take a long, hard look at the T&Cs of its staff drivers. Perhaps the ‘pay gap’ between drivers, managers and directors needs to be closed a bit to restore profitability.

If there really is a driver shortage, then the company which looks after its full-time drivers best is going to put its competitors out of business.

Rjan:

Andrejs:

David H:
[…]

When company have small profit that they all the time will hided real reason for this.They will blame somebody else but not self.Plus in England like talk ■■■■■■■■.last month DHl fail make chicken delivery.But they start post who Chiken cross road… But real reason DHL fail own job,not good planning or IT fail.

Exactly. There is clearly no shortage of drivers when you can replace an entire chain-restaurant delivery operation with an alternative provider!

There is a shortage of drivers Rjan (and anyone else who’s interested lol) when you look at it from an operator’s point of view.

Operators prefer to employ drivers at a rate they can set themselves.

When the same operator has to book agency drivers at a higher rate then it impacts on their profits.

The operator basically ends up with a ‘workforce’ doing the same job on two different pay scales.

In a market where operators work on a principle of high turnover and low profit the ongoing difference in pay between employed and agency drivers mounts up.

To an operator there is a shortage of drivers willing to be employed by them directly, the operator is being outpriced by agency drivers.

If the situation gets worse and more full-time employed drivers defect to agencies then the operator won’t be able to afford to trade if all they’re doing is hiring agency drivers to do the work.

In other words, to an operator a driver they can’t afford to hire is no driver at all. In the same way that a driver that won’t tramp is, for a tramping operator, no driver at all. The same goes for nights, trunkers, multi-drop etc.

There’s a shortage of drivers willing to work directly for operators and there is a shortage of drivers willing to commit to certain types of job.

The shortage of drivers is a bit more complex that basing it on a single contract that didn’t get off the ground.

I’m sure you go clothes shopping Rjan with a budget. You can only afford to buy clothes on the rails that fall beneath your budget and fit you. The rest of the clothes are out of your price range or don’t fit you and for all intents and purposes however nice these clothes no longer exist.

Operators are the same. It may look like there are plenty of drivers but not many of them will fit a specific role and work for the money the operator can afford to pay to do the job.

This is why large operators constantly have pages of jobs on offer. Brexit will make the situation even more unstable for existing drivers and operators.

David H:

Rjan:

Andrejs:

David H:
[…]

This is why large operators constantly have pages of jobs on offer. Brexit will make the situation even more unstable for existing drivers and operators.

Nope, where i am the terms and conditions are class leading, own account but a major operator in the own account sector.

Yes they take the odd batch of new drivers on, but these are to cope with the constant expansion of business and to replace the retirees and those who take promotion, almost no one leaves.
There’s one large contributory reason for that constant growth and that is service to the industry clients (you don’t get much of that these days), selecting good people and giving them good jobs they want to keep and protect is good practice.
Business has to be competitive, that is obvious, but price is only one aspect, service still sells so recruiting the right people and making sure they’re happy pays dividends.

This company has never advertised for drivers, and i doubt it ever will, and it has no trouble at all filling posts with the right calibre, some don’t work out as happens anywhere but these are in a tiny minority because those with questionable history don’t usually get through initial CV checking, and no you won’t get a job here without submitting a CV first.

David H:

Rjan:

Andrejs:

David H:
[…]

When company have small profit that they all the time will hided real reason for this.They will blame somebody else but not self.Plus in England like talk ■■■■■■■■.last month DHl fail make chicken delivery.But they start post who Chiken cross road… But real reason DHL fail own job,not good planning or IT fail.

Exactly. There is clearly no shortage of drivers when you can replace an entire chain-restaurant delivery operation with an alternative provider!

There is a shortage of drivers Rjan (and anyone else who’s interested lol) when you look at it from an operator’s point of view.

Operators prefer to employ drivers at a rate they can set themselves.

Yes but there’s always a shortage of those that will work for free down the pits, as employers would prefer! :laughing:

But any reasonable person would think a “shortage” meant a shortage of licensed drivers, not a shortage of willingness of licensed drivers to work for what is on offer.

This is certainly the interpretation of the word that the industry encourages. It does not run advertisements asking would-be recruits “are you willing to work when other guys won’t?”, “are your expectations lower than those already in the industry?”. :laughing:

The irony is, I’m led to believe that many new drivers the industry does manage to attract (whether on their own dime or through training schemes) walk straight back out of the door.

Incidentally, the FTA’s own research shows that drivers’ pay in the industry is falling slightly in money terms - in real terms in the past couple of years (after inflation), it’s lost about 50p an hour.

When the same operator has to book agency drivers at a higher rate then it impacts on their profits.

The operator basically ends up with a ‘workforce’ doing the same job on two different pay scales.

In a market where operators work on a principle of high turnover and low profit the ongoing difference in pay between employed and agency drivers mounts up.

To an operator there is a shortage of drivers willing to be employed by them directly, the operator is being outpriced by agency drivers.

If the situation gets worse and more full-time employed drivers defect to agencies then the operator won’t be able to afford to trade if all they’re doing is hiring agency drivers to do the work.

Indeed, and once the slate has been wiped clean of a surplus of operators, those left standing will charge customers more in order to pay drivers more. There are simply too many operators - it is not unusual to find several small carriers (with no specialism, simply doing general purpose work) on a single industrial estate. That’s how over-supplied we are with operators.

In other words, to an operator a driver they can’t afford to hire is no driver at all. In the same way that a driver that won’t tramp is, for a tramping operator, no driver at all. The same goes for nights, trunkers, multi-drop etc.

There’s a shortage of drivers willing to work directly for operators and there is a shortage of drivers willing to commit to certain types of job.

The shortage of drivers is a bit more complex that basing it on a single contract that didn’t get off the ground.

I’m sure you go clothes shopping Rjan with a budget. You can only afford to buy clothes on the rails that fall beneath your budget and fit you. The rest of the clothes are out of your price range or don’t fit you and for all intents and purposes however nice these clothes no longer exist.

Operators are the same. It may look like there are plenty of drivers but not many of them will fit a specific role and work for the money the operator can afford to pay to do the job.

This is why large operators constantly have pages of jobs on offer. Brexit will make the situation even more unstable for existing drivers and operators.

Indeed, so the answer, if those operator’s “budgets for the clothes rack” are not sufficient, is that they are bankrupted! And the reduction in competition between operators which that entails, then allows the rest of the operators to name their prices to customers, so that the operator can afford to buy more expensive drivers off the rack.

I understand the situation totally from an individual operator’s point of view. What you don’t seem to acknowledge any understanding of is the dynamics of the market system, in which wages go up by forcing operators and customers to suffer (that is, to hemorrhage profits, perhaps across the entire sector) until they pay the wages demanded (or reorganise the work according to the conditions demanded).

That there is no movement on wages or conditions, simply proves that there is no shortage.

There is also the normal issue with all industries based on “sweated labour”, which is that as the discipline of permanent work on a routine schedule becomes unfamiliar to many drivers, they learn to prefer the flexibility of working when they want and adapt their lifestyles. Hourly rates also go up, overall productivity goes down, and the industry as a whole actually engages many more workers than it needs, who dither between it and other occupations (as shown by the huge excess in the number of licence-holders compared to full-timers).

But of course, there’s no evidence yet that haulage is ready to give up the sweating of drivers and move back towards more steady jobs with standard hours.

Back on topic…anyone listening to the news?

We’re staying in the single Market, there will be no hard border between the EU and the UK, we continue to hand money over to the EU, but we no longer have a say in how the EU is run.

Ok I think this is my final call on this because it’s become like two bald men arguing over a comb. Firstly, how many drivers scribe an arc around themselves and judge the driver shortage on their observations in that area? They say shortage? Not here there aint! Over there maybe etc. I tried to point this out earlier in the post but obviously to no avail.

Also, yes, you’re right I’m completely devoid of any understanding of the dynamics of the market but maybe this will explain somethings. I spoke to the Operations Manager of a huge nationwide retail outlet. They told me that even though the service the logistics company was providing was poor – it wasn’t bad enough to stop using them because the service was far from grinding to a halt.

One reason pay is so poor is because wages may be low enough for drivers to leave an individual operator but not bad enough to quit the industry. Therefore the ‘driver market’ is full of drivers chasing a few quid extra or better shifts etc but not quitting altogether. The employment habits of some drivers are a clue. They can’t settle in one place and are always looking around for something better. Among the pool of available drivers looking for work even low earning jobs are filled if not by full-time drivers then by agency drivers or drivers that last a week or two days or the boss tips it.

My final point is that if you feel you have a strong enough case to promote a specific issue or point of view and it’s obvious that many of you are capable of putting an argument together then write it down and get it published. The popular road transport publications and websites are not scary to deal with. They need popular opinion to create interest. Try it and see.

Dare I suggest that if you are unable to recruit employees at rates you can make a profit on, you don’t have a viable business? Market forces David, market forces…

TiredAndEmotional:
Dare I suggest that if you are unable to recruit employees at rates you can make a profit on, you don’t have a viable business? Market forces David, market forces…

Yes I agree with you and some operators are struggling. Unfortunately for drivers the market is not even around the country. Also operators can go along way to monopolising bread and butter jobs in a geographic area.

One of the wonders about transport is that if an operator goes bust in the North East then an operator from Northampton can bid for and win the outstanding work,

Isn’t it often the case that drivers don’t come from the area the work is?

Market forces are exposing some areas more than others.

GasGas:
Back on topic…anyone listening to the news?

We’re staying in the single Market, there will be no hard border between the EU and the UK, we continue to hand money over to the EU, but we no longer have a say in how the EU is run.

Well the big problem is Northern Ireland , and they keep ignoring it or putting it to one side , Brexit will never happen until its sorted. The people there voted to stay in the EU , same as the Republic. The people of all communities in Northern Ireland and the South will not accept a hard border. There can only be one solution , Northern Ireland remains part of the EU and the customs union with no border restrictions. The only thing stopping that is the DUP extremists. Theresa May can’t upset them too much as they are the only reason she is in power and hanging onto it . So we have to wait till she has gone for Brexit to happen which will lead to a united 32 county Ireland in the EU while the rest of Britain has Brexit. Although when that happens Scotland and Wales will want the same deal.

villa:

GasGas:
Back on topic…anyone listening to the news?

We’re staying in the single Market, there will be no hard border between the EU and the UK, we continue to hand money over to the EU, but we no longer have a say in how the EU is run.

Well the big problem is Northern Ireland , and they keep ignoring it or putting it to one side , Brexit will never happen until its sorted. The people there voted to stay in the EU , same as the Republic. The people of all communities in Northern Ireland and the South will not accept a hard border. There can only be one solution , Northern Ireland remains part of the EU and the customs union with no border restrictions. The only thing stopping that is the DUP extremists. Theresa May can’t upset them too much as they are the only reason she is in power and hanging onto it . So we have to wait till she has gone for Brexit to happen which will lead to a united 32 county Ireland in the EU while the rest of Britain has Brexit. Although when that happens Scotland and Wales will want the same deal.

Different situation.

David H:
Ok I think this is my final call on this because it’s become like two bald men arguing over a comb.

I thought it was going pretty productively so far!

Firstly, how many drivers scribe an arc around themselves and judge the driver shortage on their observations in that area? They say shortage? Not here there aint! Over there maybe etc. I tried to point this out earlier in the post but obviously to no avail.

So the question is, who is claiming there is a shortage, if no drivers can see one? The bosses! But I’ve given you their perspective too, which is that “shortage” is that they can’t pick the phone up at 4pm in the evening, and get drivers for 1am in the morning at plain time (or if I’m totally honest, a night-shift rate at time-and-a-tenth)!

Also, yes, you’re right I’m completely devoid of any understanding of the dynamics of the market but maybe this will explain somethings. I spoke to the Operations Manager of a huge nationwide retail outlet. They told me that even though the service the logistics company was providing was poor – it wasn’t bad enough to stop using them because the service was far from grinding to a halt.

I’m not sure that does explain anything - it doesn’t seem to follow. Or is the logic that customers put up with crap in logistics, so long as it is cheap crap?

One reason pay is so poor is because wages may be low enough for drivers to leave an individual operator but not bad enough to quit the industry. Therefore the ‘driver market’ is full of drivers chasing a few quid extra or better shifts etc but not quitting altogether. The employment habits of some drivers are a clue. They can’t settle in one place and are always looking around for something better. Among the pool of available drivers looking for work even low earning jobs are filled if not by full-time drivers then by agency drivers or drivers that last a week or two days or the boss tips it.

I agree with this characterisation - that many drivers go on the agency and will tolerate for a few days or weeks (on a contract they can leave at the drop of a hat) what they will not tolerate for months or years (as well as being bound in by a notice period). That is precisely the marker of a “sweated trade”.

I don’t agree drivers are not leaving the industry. Obviously, many guys won’t have an alternative if they have no other experience (or left an artisanal skilled trade a very long time ago), but many guys do. Half of all licensed HGV drivers don’t drive, if I remember correctly. Indeed, the FTA statistics show that haulage saw an increase of 15,000 drivers under-35s in 2016, and then lost literally all of them from the sector in 2017! Because naturally enough, newcomers to the industry will find it easiest to walk straight back out.

Again, the marker of a sweated trade is that a large number do dither between it and other irregular occupations - mechanical fitting, construction, etc - or that it becomes a sump for older workers made redundant from other occupations (soldiers, steelworkers, etc.) or “lumpen” elements (once upon a time I believe the Jobcentre provided grants for the recalcitrant unemployed to get HGV licences).

But of course, the hallmark of a sweated trade is not general shortage of workers - it is low pay and poor conditions, a very disorganised and inefficient marketplace with a myriad of contractors, and poor worker discipline and skill (unreliable timekeeping, irregular availability, an undue amount of poor quality work or machinery damage). And this is exactly what we see in haulage. There is no shortage.

My final point is that if you feel you have a strong enough case to promote a specific issue or point of view and it’s obvious that many of you are capable of putting an argument together then write it down and get it published. The popular road transport publications and websites are not scary to deal with. They need popular opinion to create interest. Try it and see.

I already have a publisher - it’s called Trucknet! :laughing:

Though the difference is, readers can talk back to this author, and I can talk back to other authors!

TiredAndEmotional:

villa:
Although when that happens Scotland and Wales will want the same deal.

Different situation.

I’m not sure it is in the long term. Scotland already has a strong nationalist movement, and if exceptions can be made for NI then it follows logically that exceptions can be made for Scotland!

David H:
,

Isn’t it often the case that drivers don’t come from the area the work is?

Two of mine come from up here in the North West, yet they work out of our Herts depot. I’ve never directly asked, but a good chunk of that will be wages and a little because they both knew a driver that liked the job and it isn’t run of the mill work, which appeals to some drivers.

So the question is, who is claiming there is a shortage, if no drivers can see one? The bosses! But I’ve given you their perspective too, which is that “shortage” is that they can’t pick the phone up at 4pm in the evening, and get drivers for 1am in the morning at plain time (or if I’m totally honest, a night-shift rate at time-and-a-tenth)! - Rjan

Your perception of their perspective. Every now and then you might get it right, but this boss doesn’t recognise half of what you think I think. Though I’m with David H, I’ll be a bald woman arguing over a comb if I continue.

Franglais:

Captain Caveman 76:

rob22888:
Brexit has become a farce.

The overwhelming problem is that the people in charge of delivering it don’t believe in it, so what hope have we got? We are just going to end up out but still on a leash, which is arguably worse that just staying in.

This, This, 1000 times this.

Farce ?
We are currently members of the biggest Free Trade Zone outside of the USA.
We have free trade will our neighbours.
We are contributors to the area and so have a lot of influence.
We are about to leave.
We are being told by some we`ll be better off.
Brian Rix would throw that script out as too improbable.

The EU leaders who speak for us never face a constituent ballot!
The commissioners who tax us never face a constituent ballot or have accounts signed off by auditers!
Those who were elected by us refused to give us a say on Mastrict or Nice Treaties and are exercising back room influence to their own benefit!

It could have been so different but the greedy, power crazed fools didn’t have the courage of their convictions did they!!

albion:
So the question is, who is claiming there is a shortage, if no drivers can see one? The bosses! But I’ve given you their perspective too, which is that “shortage” is that they can’t pick the phone up at 4pm in the evening, and get drivers for 1am in the morning at plain time (or if I’m totally honest, a night-shift rate at time-and-a-tenth)! - Rjan

Your perception of their perspective. Every now and then you might get it right, but this boss doesn’t recognise half of what you think I think. Though I’m with David H, I’ll be a bald woman arguing over a comb if I continue.

Perhaps I’ll make an exception for you Albion, since you argue there is no shortage.

This way, when I’m accused of over-generalising, I can say “some of my best friends are bosses”! :laughing:

When does the immigration restriction start - 2019 or the end of 2020 :question:

ROG:
When does the immigration restriction start - 2019 or the end of 2020 :question:

23 months of transition after Brexit in March 2019?
So end of 2021?

Maybe…

Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk

Rjan:

albion:
So the question is, who is claiming there is a shortage, if no drivers can see one? The bosses! But I’ve given you their perspective too, which is that “shortage” is that they can’t pick the phone up at 4pm in the evening, and get drivers for 1am in the morning at plain time (or if I’m totally honest, a night-shift rate at time-and-a-tenth)! - Rjan

Your perception of their perspective. Every now and then you might get it right, but this boss doesn’t recognise half of what you think I think. Though I’m with David H, I’ll be a bald woman arguing over a comb if I continue.

Perhaps I’ll make an exception for you Albion, since you argue there is no shortage.

This way, when I’m accused of over-generalising, I can say “some of my best friends are bosses”! :laughing:

They’ll never let you back into the socialist, communist, over on the left somewhere annual jamboree if you go around declaring such things :open_mouth: :laughing: .

Don’t know if it was you or someone else said we look at things from their own radius, so from mine, there isn’t one, because we don’t even advertise, it’s all recommendation. And we aren’t on the face of it, the most appealing company to work for.

albion:
Don’t know if it was you or someone else said we look at things from their own radius, so from mine, there isn’t one, because we don’t even advertise, it’s all recommendation. And we aren’t on the face of it, the most appealing company to work for.

Just one question, how old is your average driver ?
I remember being a thread asking most people on here how old they are, and most are over 40, I even think most are over 50.
So that means that within a few years a massive amount of drivers will retire, and while there is new blood coming into the industry, they do not compensate for the people leaving.

If I compare to our firm, 80 percent of our drivers and staff are 55 and older, with only 5 percent younger then 30.

Some companies will never have a shortage, because of wages, work and material, but within a few years some companies will have a shortage.
All those manufacturers like Volvo, Scania, Mercedes and others are experimenting with platooning and driverless vehicles for a reason…

albion:
Though I’m with David H, I’ll be a bald woman arguing over a comb if I continue.

As my name already suggests…, I will not risk losing any more, so I will leave it here