Brexit..more controversy/indecision!

[robbo99]

Franglais:

Captain Caveman 76:

rob22888:
Brexit has become a farce.

The overwhelming problem is that the people in charge of delivering it don’t believe in it, so what hope have we got? We are just going to end up out but still on a leash, which is arguably worse that just staying in.

This, This, 1000 times this.

Farce ?
We are currently members of the biggest Free Trade Zone outside of the USA.
We have free trade will our neighbours.
We are contributors to the area and so have a lot of influence.
We are about to leave.
We are being told by some we`ll be better off.
Brian Rix would throw that script out as too improbable.

Brian Rix ■■

[juddian]

robbo99.:

Franglais:

Captain Caveman 76:

rob22888:
Brexit has become a farce.

The overwhelming problem is that the people in charge of delivering it don’t believe in it, so what hope have we got? We are just going to end up out but still on a leash, which is arguably worse that just staying in.

This, This, 1000 times this.

Farce ?
We are currently members of the biggest Free Trade Zone outside of the USA.
We have free trade will our neighbours.
We are contributors to the area and so have a lot of influence.
We are about to leave.
We are being told by some we`ll be better off.
Brian Rix would throw that script out as too improbable.

Brian Rix ■■

You would have to be of a certain age.
The Brian Rix farce’s were great fun.

[franglais]

Juddian:
You would have to be of a certain age.
The Brian Rix farce’s were great fun.

Brian Rix expected and wanted to be laughed at.
The current farce is full of characters wanting us to take them seriously.
More of a black comedy really then? A very bad one that no one is actually finding funny anymore.

And today theres reports that some politicos are saying the negotiations need to be extended. Some want the talks donendusted today and us out at any cost. Some want longer talks to get a better deal. These seem to ignore the fact that for talks to continue we need the EU to agree to that. And I seem to remember that any one EU country can veto an extension to talks? So, if any country thinks the UK may get a better deal at cost to them....? Well, no talks. Yet again, similar to the NI border, and imaginary trade deals where we dictate to grateful recipients our terms, were being told about options and solutions that Do Not Exist.

Farce? No.I was wrong there. Freaking Fantasy is nearer the truth.

[robbo99]

Ah yes Brian Rix, I guess he was suitably qualified as he was President of Mencap. The loonies running the asylum ie the Tory government could have benefitted from his wealth of knowledge and his ability to act out a farce.

[milesahead]

Franglais:

Captain Caveman 76:

rob22888:
Brexit has become a farce.

The overwhelming problem is that the people in charge of delivering it don’t believe in it, so what hope have we got? We are just going to end up out but still on a leash, which is arguably worse that just staying in.

This, This, 1000 times this.

Farce ?
We are currently members of the biggest Free Trade Zone outside of the USA.
We have free trade will our neighbours.
We are contributors to the area and so have a lot of influence.
We are about to leave.
We are being told by some we`ll be better off.
Brian Rix would throw that script out as too improbable.

True!

[mike68]

The problem has been the left wing media and anti brexit politicians who refuse to accept the will of the British people.

We need to take back control of our borders something the EU will not accept we also need a free trade agreement, which the EU won’t give us without free movement of people this appears to be the main stumbling block.

I voted out because of what I saw as a slow erosion of our sovereignty by un elected bureaucrats I didn’t want this country to become part of a federal Europe run mainly for the benefit of German industry and French agriculture.

We will emerge from this crisis as we have from all others, on top.

Can you imagine if the Labour party had won the last election, the blood runs cold comrade Corbyn and Diane Abacus in charge of negotiations the only 2 people alive who would pay full price for a DFS sofa.

[milesahead]

"Of course we will manage. Our goods will be taxed, and subject to non-tariff barriers, and well be poorer, but well still “manage”.

That’s what I told previously, life will not stop, but why would people volunteer to become poorer by creating all these unnecessary barriers, I can’t understand…

[robbo99]

mike68:
The problem has been the left wing media and anti brexit politicians who refuse to accept the will of the British people.

We need to take back control of our borders something the EU will not accept we also need a free trade agreement, which the EU won’t give us without free movement of people this appears to be the main stumbling block.

I voted out because of what I saw as a slow erosion of our sovereignty by un elected bureaucrats I didn’t want this country to become part of a federal Europe run mainly for the benefit of German industry and French agriculture.

We will emerge from this crisis as we have from all others, on top.

Can you imagine if the Labour party had won the last election, the blood runs cold comrade Corbyn and Diane Abacus in charge of negotiations the only 2 people alive who would pay full price for a DFS sofa.

Well said. Get ready for the verbal bombardment.

[franglais]

robbo99.:
Well said. Get ready for the verbal bombardment.

I doubt this will qualify as a bombardment?

mike68:
The problem has been the left wing media and anti brexit politicians who refuse to accept the will of the British people.

We need to take back control of our borders something the EU will not accept we also need a free trade agreement, which the EU won’t give us without free movement of people this appears to be the main stumbling block.

So, the EU has a set of rules that say, free trade only comes with free movement of people attached?
We cant alter those rules easily from inside the EU, but we sure as hell cant alter the rules from the outside.
We can take back control of our borders, yes. But we wont have a free trade agreement at the same time. That isnt the press and politicos ignoring the peoples wishes, its The Way It Is.
It may be contrary to the lies and spin and guff from some politicos, but just look at the world for yourself: if you were in the EU would you give a better deal to a country leaving than to a full member? We don`t need the press to tell us the way the world works do we?

mike68:
Europe run mainly for the benefit of German industry and French agriculture.

And currently we in the UK benefit from having a full access into the EU financial markets. I doubt thatll last. WE sell more services into the EU than food or manufactured goods. And banking and financial multinationals dont need to move fields or factories to move their centres of operations do they?
And since our motor industry is important, but maybe not as big as the German one, how is hampering it with taxes and tariffs etc gonna help it?

[david_h]

An opinion on how Brexit will affect EU drivers…

transportoperator.co.uk/2017/09/ … nd-beyond/

[rjan]

mike68:
The problem has been the left wing media and anti brexit politicians who refuse to accept the will of the British people.

I always think the media is too ■■■■ right wing!

We need to take back control of our borders something the EU will not accept we also need a free trade agreement, which the EU won’t give us without free movement of people this appears to be the main stumbling block.

On the contrary, they’ll give us a deal without free movement, what they’ve said is that they’re not willing to accept undercutting of their minimum standards - and if that happens, then they’ll set up customs posts and whack tariffs on British exports, because they’re not going to allow their own sovereign decisions on market standards (including employment rights) to be undermined or attacked by the British from outside.

That’s why there has been talk of “punishment clauses” in the deal which will respond to any driving down of standards in Britain by ratcheting up restrictions (or costs) on Britain’s access to the continental marketplace, because they know what the Tories are up to - and the Tories are hubristic enough to think the leaders of other nations are as foolish as the British electorate have been in this respect.

I voted out because of what I saw as a slow erosion of our sovereignty by un elected bureaucrats I didn’t want this country to become part of a federal Europe run mainly for the benefit of German industry and French agriculture.

We will emerge from this crisis as we have from all others, on top.

Can you imagine if the Labour party had won the last election, the blood runs cold comrade Corbyn and Diane Abacus in charge of negotiations the only 2 people alive who would pay full price for a DFS sofa.

Then thank god it was Davis Davis who has made the commitment, indeed, to pay full price for the DFS sofa - after all talk of telling the EU to go and whistle for the spending commitments we’d previously made.

[rjan]

milesahead:
"Of course we will manage. Our goods will be taxed, and subject to non-tariff barriers, and well be poorer, but well still “manage”.

That’s what I told previously, life will not stop, but why would people volunteer to become poorer by creating all these unnecessary barriers, I can’t understand…

Because it depends who pays the price and who gains the additional control. For Corbyn for example, he wants even stronger controls on the marketplace, to ensure that wages and conditions go up, to ensure that the state can nationalise utilities, and to drive out the inefficient and malign “internal markets” in the NHS and elsewhere.

The fact that the national economy as a whole may take a small up-front hit during reorganisation, doesn’t really matter if workers gain more for themselves by driving out the sucker straws of profit, and secure a bigger share of the pie for themselves.

20% of a national economy worth £80 is far better than 10% of a national economy worth £100 - because with a much larger share of a moderately smaller pie, you’re not just materially better off, but (perhaps most importantly) you actually have more relative economic strength and bargaining power against the bosses: you actually have more control over your daily life.

To give you an example, if you are a worker in a factory on a zero hours contract, if someone said you could continue earning £10 an hour if you work only when the bosses want (with zero income when the bosses don’t want you to work), or you could earn £9 an hour working whenever you want, and you can’t have both, most people would opt for the latter, because in the latter case you’re secure and in control, you’re in control of your working hours and income, you’re not subject to manipulation and exploitation by the bosses, and you can’t simply be told to go home without pay by someone else at the drop of a hat.

The fact (in this example) that your hourly rate is lower is immaterial when it comes with so much extra control over the manner in which that rate is earned.

[rjan]

David H:
An opinion on how Brexit will affect EU drivers…

transportoperator.co.uk/2017/09/ … nd-beyond/

transportoperator.co.uk:
The exodus of anywhere between 35,000 and 60,000 drivers – depending on who you believe – will certainly increase the driver shortage, so the industry associations are lobbying for them to return.

The nonsense driver shortage!

An exodus of 60,000 would only go a short way toward reducing the surplus, not increasing a shortage.

[david_h]

Rjan:

David H:
An opinion on how Brexit will affect EU drivers…

transportoperator.co.uk/2017/09/ … nd-beyond/

transportoperator.co.uk:
The exodus of anywhere between 35,000 and 60,000 drivers – depending on who you believe – will certainly increase the driver shortage, so the industry associations are lobbying for them to return.

The nonsense driver shortage!

An exodus of 60,000 would only go a short way toward reducing the surplus, not increasing a shortage.

Nonsense? Until a few years ago I’d have agreed with you. The impact of the high number of established drivers leaving the industry due to the 2014 DCPC resulted in large operators becoming even more reliant on agency drivers in order to fulfil existing work. So, is this a ‘driver shortage’? Depends on how you define ‘driver shortage.’

To some operators the shortage is geographic. To others it’s a shortage of drivers with artic licences etc the reasons are numerous. There are also high maintenance operators that constantly turn over drivers due to low pay or poor conditions etc. Drivers generally work at these places until something better turns up.

Agencies have been known to literally bus drivers in and put them up away from home to service clients needs. Operators offering all ages ‘flatpack’ apprenticeships (holes already drilled, screws supplied with instructions provided lol) are another pointer towards a shortage – or rather operators securing their own future with full-time employees as opposed to relying on expensive agency drivers.

An actual ‘bums on seats’ driver shortage may not be critical yet but there are plenty of potential full-time jobs not being applied for. An operator can generally phone an agency and book a driver even at short notice. But there is a case for there being a shortage of drivers willing to be employed directly by operators.

After all, one of the main reasons why drivers defect to agencies is so the agency can set the driver up as limited company. Its not unknown for ex-employees to return to their previous employer as a limited company driver. Just how operators can justify paying an agency for the services of a limited company tax dodge that’s knowingly undermining their business is another pointer to the desperate lengths transport companies are going to stay in business. In doing so operators know they are upholding the very mechanism that’s reducing their full-time workforce. Operators are also aware that any pay rise they can offer employed drivers cannot compete with that earned by limited company drivers doing the same job.

The dilemma for operators is just how many limited company agency drivers would pack in altogether if HMRC outlawed the practice? Would limited company drivers used to the wage they can earn drop down to those on offer as a full-time employee?

Downton Transport recently reported taking a hit on profits due to their reliance on agency drivers. Ask them, they’ll tell you there’s a shortage of operator employed drivers. Its threadbare in places but there are also areas where the effect is not as visible. If you’re an operator with 400 trucks and you need 25 agency drivers every day then you’ll need some convincing that there isn’t a driver shortage.

Its only been in the last few years that operators have made any attempt to encourage interest in the industry. Prior to this, operators were only interested in older experienced drivers thank you very much. Operators also wanted easily interchangeable drivers with no skill barriers like DCPC’s etc. Operators didn’t want the government or anyone else poking their noses in the road transport industry because traditionally drivers were dealt with roughly between the unsophisticated operators.

This situation has now been reversed. The road transport industry can’t do enough to promote itself for no other reason than it wants more drivers to maintain existing work and expand should the economy allow it. I should also add that operators are used to blind obedience and terms where trouble makers can be easily replaced. Therefore, they don’t want to be held ransom by agencies, limited company drivers or you!

[discoman]

Franglais:

robbo99.:
Well said. Get ready for the verbal bombardment.

I doubt this will qualify as a bombardment?

mike68:
The problem has been the left wing media and anti brexit politicians who refuse to accept the will of the British people.

We need to take back control of our borders something the EU will not accept we also need a free trade agreement, which the EU won’t give us without free movement of people this appears to be the main stumbling block.

So, the EU has a set of rules that say, free trade only comes with free movement of people attached?
We cant alter those rules easily from inside the EU, but we sure as hell cant alter the rules from the outside.
We can take back control of our borders, yes. But we wont have a free trade agreement at the same time. That isnt the press and politicos ignoring the peoples wishes, its The Way It Is.
It may be contrary to the lies and spin and guff from some politicos, but just look at the world for yourself: if you were in the EU would you give a better deal to a country leaving than to a full member? We don`t need the press to tell us the way the world works do we?

mike68:
Europe run mainly for the benefit of German industry and French agriculture.

And currently we in the UK benefit from having a full access into the EU financial markets. I doubt thatll last. WE sell more services into the EU than food or manufactured goods. And banking and financial multinationals dont need to move fields or factories to move their centres of operations do they?
And since our motor industry is important, but maybe not as big as the German one, how is hampering it with taxes and tariffs etc gonna help it?

Considering that 5 countries are paying in near on 50% of the EU budget, where do you think these smaller countries get the funding from as they get out more than they put in… France love it also , yes they contribute more than the UK but, net news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036097.stm#start

the top 4 contributor’s dont want to have to pay the UK’s contribution as you can see from the list loads of countries will lose these funds and rightly so, you cant have UK residents living on the streets and worry about someone else’s financial issues.

Further more, you harp on about the UK goods being taxed, but fail to mention the EU items coming in to the UK being taxed.

[andrejs]

David H:

Rjan:

David H:
An opinion on how Brexit will affect EU drivers…

transportoperator.co.uk/2017/09/ … nd-beyond/

transportoperator.co.uk:
The exodus of anywhere between 35,000 and 60,000 drivers – depending on who you believe – will certainly increase the driver shortage, so the industry associations are lobbying for them to return.

The nonsense driver shortage!

An exodus of 60,000 would only go a short way toward reducing the surplus, not increasing a shortage.

Nonsense? Until a few years ago I’d have agreed with you. The impact of the high number of established drivers leaving the industry due to the 2014 DCPC resulted in large operators becoming even more reliant on agency drivers in order to fulfil existing work. So, is this a ‘driver shortage’? Depends on how you define ‘driver shortage.’

To some operators the shortage is geographic. To others it’s a shortage of drivers with artic licences etc the reasons are numerous. There are also high maintenance operators that constantly turn over drivers due to low pay or poor conditions etc. Drivers generally work at these places until something better turns up.

Agencies have been known to literally bus drivers in and put them up away from home to service clients needs. Operators offering all ages ‘flatpack’ apprenticeships (holes already drilled, screws supplied with instructions provided lol) are another pointer towards a shortage – or rather operators securing their own future with full-time employees as opposed to relying on expensive agency drivers.

An actual ‘bums on seats’ driver shortage may not be critical yet but there are plenty of potential full-time jobs not being applied for. An operator can generally phone an agency and book a driver even at short notice. But there is a case for there being a shortage of drivers willing to be employed directly by operators.

After all, one of the main reasons why drivers defect to agencies is so the agency can set the driver up as limited company. Its not unknown for ex-employees to return to their previous employer as a limited company driver. Just how operators can justify paying an agency for the services of a limited company tax dodge that’s knowingly undermining their business is another pointer to the desperate lengths transport companies are going to stay in business. In doing so operators know they are upholding the very mechanism that’s reducing their full-time workforce. Operators are also aware that any pay rise they can offer employed drivers cannot compete with that earned by limited company drivers doing the same job.

The dilemma for operators is just how many limited company agency drivers would pack in altogether if HMRC outlawed the practice? Would limited company drivers used to the wage they can earn drop down to those on offer as a full-time employee?

Downton Transport recently reported taking a hit on profits due to their reliance on agency drivers. Ask them, they’ll tell you there’s a shortage of operator employed drivers. Its threadbare in places but there are also areas where the effect is not as visible. If you’re an operator with 400 trucks and you need 25 agency drivers every day then you’ll need some convincing that there isn’t a driver shortage.

Its only been in the last few years that operators have made any attempt to encourage interest in the industry. Prior to this, operators were only interested in older experienced drivers thank you very much. Operators also wanted easily interchangeable drivers with no skill barriers like DCPC’s etc. Operators didn’t want the government or anyone else poking their noses in the road transport industry because traditionally drivers were dealt with roughly between the unsophisticated operators.

This situation has now been reversed. The road transport industry can’t do enough to promote itself for no other reason than it wants more drivers to maintain existing work and expand should the economy allow it. I should also add that operators are used to blind obedience and terms where trouble makers can be easily replaced. Therefore, they don’t want to be held ransom by agencies, limited company drivers or you!

When company have small profit that they all the time will hided real reason for this.They will blame somebody else but not self.Plus in England like talk ■■■■■■■■.last month DHl fail make chicken delivery.But they start post who Chiken cross road… But real reason DHL fail own job,not good planning or IT fail.

[franglais]

discoman:

Franglais:

robbo99.:
Well said. Get ready for the verbal bombardment.

I doubt this will qualify as a bombardment?

mike68:
The problem has been the left wing media and anti brexit politicians who refuse to accept the will of the British people.

We need to take back control of our borders something the EU will not accept we also need a free trade agreement, which the EU won’t give us without free movement of people this appears to be the main stumbling block.

So, the EU has a set of rules that say, free trade only comes with free movement of people attached?
We cant alter those rules easily from inside the EU, but we sure as hell cant alter the rules from the outside.
We can take back control of our borders, yes. But we wont have a free trade agreement at the same time. That isnt the press and politicos ignoring the peoples wishes, its The Way It Is.
It may be contrary to the lies and spin and guff from some politicos, but just look at the world for yourself: if you were in the EU would you give a better deal to a country leaving than to a full member? We don`t need the press to tell us the way the world works do we?

mike68:
Europe run mainly for the benefit of German industry and French agriculture.

And currently we in the UK benefit from having a full access into the EU financial markets. I doubt thatll last. WE sell more services into the EU than food or manufactured goods. And banking and financial multinationals dont need to move fields or factories to move their centres of operations do they?
And since our motor industry is important, but maybe not as big as the German one, how is hampering it with taxes and tariffs etc gonna help it?

Considering that 5 countries are paying in near on 50% of the EU budget, where do you think these smaller countries get the funding from as they get out more than they put in… France love it also , yes they contribute more than the UK but, net news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036097.stm#start

the top 4 contributor’s dont want to have to pay the UK’s contribution as you can see from the list loads of countries will lose these funds and rightly so, you cant have UK residents living on the streets and worry about someone else’s financial issues.

Further more, you harp on about the UK goods being taxed, but fail to mention the EU items coming in to the UK being taxed.

Items coming into the UK could be taxed too? True, so we can all pay more for our imported foods and goods. Marvellous.
So if we pay less into EU funds other countries must pay more?
True, but so what? Doesn’t make me richer or happier at all.
As I said we ALL suffer. People living on the streets of the UK are because of failings of the UK Gov.

Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk

[rjan]

Andrejs:

David H:
[…]

When company have small profit that they all the time will hided real reason for this.They will blame somebody else but not self.Plus in England like talk ■■■■■■■■.last month DHl fail make chicken delivery.But they start post who Chiken cross road… But real reason DHL fail own job,not good planning or IT fail.

Exactly. There is clearly no shortage of drivers when you can replace an entire chain-restaurant delivery operation with an alternative provider!

[euro]

Unity is strength
The United States of America , the United Kingdom and United Europe have all been successful.
Why do brexiters want us to rush departure before people have weighed up the consequences?

[juddian]

Euro:
Unity is strength
The United States of America , the United Kingdom and United Europe have all been successful.
Why do brexiters want us to rush departure before people have weighed up the consequences?

We’ve been weighing it up for 40 years, those younger had all the time in the world to decide during the referendum campaigns, we voted out for better or worse, simples.

Independence and national sovereignty with power over your own borders comes first, i do not and nor do any Brexiteers i know expect the coming years to be plain sailing with instant gains there is no such thing in this world as a free lunch (as those undeserving but who exist on and run their lives benefit dependent will find out), we will have to start over again, but what we do will be our choice, and we the electorate will once again have the option to sack our law makers…something denied to EU member states the electorates of which have no say in who makes the laws in the EU.

The reality of course is that the project fear will intensify (the russian angle currently) as the deadline draws near, just as it the scaremongering intensified as the referendum drew closer.
This is to make more people jittery, so when they hand over our fishing waters once agai and numerous other concessions to keep us half in, enough people will be thankful the fourth reich have promised to protect us should those pesky russians send another half wit over with the deadliest nerve gas ever know which was so deadly it never managed to kill its apparent target

As for the USA, i don’t suppose the natives of America, well those who survived the invasion, thought too much of what has happened to their once beautiful free land.
As for Europe, parts of which are currently being invaded by hundreds of thousands of fighting age men from who have no intention of ever assimilating, well if you stop reading the BBC/Grauniad you’ll see how that is working out for the average native of those affected european countries.