Are new lorry models always superior to their predecessors?

[kmills]

Are new models better? -

Another factor to add to all the above is whether the new model is 'evolution ’ or 'revolution '.

ie:, the Scania 2 series to 3 series was wasn’t much of a change, from the drivers point of view, a curved dash, different colour trim and electric windows was about it, and many of the mechanical parts hardly changed either, so it felt like putting on an old pair of slippers.

In contrast, a model change like the F10 / F12 to the FH, was a completely new truck, from the ground up - so for the driver it felt unfamiliar in comparison.

I’m guessing that the big model changes of the mid 90’s - Volvo F to FH, Scania 3 to 4 series, Merc NG to Actros for example were driven by the shift to Euro 3 emissions, which meant completely new designs, electronic fuel systems, 4 valves per cylinder etc - and the need for greater cooling capacity, meaning bigger radiators, which meant new cabs - all revolutionary at the time.

Just as an aside, I had driven 2, then 3 series Scanias, then my first trip in the ‘new’ 4 series, was the one and only time so far, that I broke down and wasn’t able to get myself going - it turned out that the early 124 - 400’s had a bit of an appetite for breaking rockers and bending pushrods - so much so, that European Freight in Dover, who I was driving for at the time, were putting spare rockers & pushrods in the trucks, but as they were warranty jobs, we had to call a Scania agent. The Spanish mechanic who fixed mine must have seen a few of them already, as he had a piece of wire, already bent to the exact shape and length to retrieve the bent pushrod.
That 4 series was brilliant on fuel mind, regularly doing better than 10mpg, using a mix of National roads and Autoroute running to Spain, I don’t think I’ve ever bettered that.

Cheers all, Keith

[ramone]

Carryfast:

ERF-NGC-European:
I did think that the F12 was better than the F88 in just about every respect

Progress is all relative and often wrecked by legislation.

DAF 95 with 18 speed Fuller and MX13 motor no limiter and no smog kit for me.

The 95 never came with the 13 litre to my knowledge and why an 18 speed Fuller , the 16 speed ZF is quite adequate and a very good box . I keep hearing how the Fullers were much quicker but were they , I would like to see a road test of 2 similar spec vehicles one with a Fuller and one with a ZF and see the difference I bet its marginal .

[rigsby]

ramone:

Carryfast:

ERF-NGC-European:
I did think that the F12 was better than the F88 in just about every respect

Progress is all relative and often wrecked by legislation.

DAF 95 with 18 speed Fuller and MX13 motor no limiter and no smog kit for me.

The 95 never came with the 13 litre to my knowledge and why an 18 speed Fuller , the 16 speed ZF is quite adequate and a very good box . I keep hearing how the Fullers were much quicker but were they , I would like to see a road test of 2 similar spec vehicles one with a Fuller and one with a ZF and see the difference I bet its marginal .

The last lorry I drove prior to retirement ( I know I’m old ) was a DAF 400 with the 16 speed ZF box which was superb . I don’t reckon a Fuller was any quicker or more positive in operation , the split shifts were quiet and slick . Sod the auto boxes , I wouldn’t want my left arm withering away .

[ramone]

rigsby:

ramone:

Carryfast:

ERF-NGC-European:
I did think that the F12 was better than the F88 in just about every respect

Progress is all relative and often wrecked by legislation.

DAF 95 with 18 speed Fuller and MX13 motor no limiter and no smog kit for me.

The 95 never came with the 13 litre to my knowledge and why an 18 speed Fuller , the 16 speed ZF is quite adequate and a very good box . I keep hearing how the Fullers were much quicker but were they , I would like to see a road test of 2 similar spec vehicles one with a Fuller and one with a ZF and see the difference I bet its marginal .

The last lorry I drove prior to retirement ( I know I’m old ) was a DAF 400 with the 16 speed ZF box which was superb . I don’t reckon a Fuller was any quicker or more positive in operation , the split shifts were quiet and slick . Sod the auto boxes , I wouldn’t want my left arm withering away .

Totally agree Rigsby I liked the 9 and 13 speed Fullers but the 16 speed ZFs in Dafs are great , now let MAN get involved and it’s a totally different game

[carryfast]

ramone:

Carryfast:

ERF-NGC-European:
I did think that the F12 was better than the F88 in just about every respect

Progress is all relative and often wrecked by legislation.

DAF 95 with 18 speed Fuller and MX13 motor no limiter and no smog kit for me.

The 95 never came with the 13 litre to my knowledge and why an 18 speed Fuller , the 16 speed ZF is quite adequate and a very good box . I keep hearing how the Fullers were much quicker but were they , I would like to see a road test of 2 similar spec vehicles one with a Fuller and one with a ZF and see the difference I bet its marginal .

Read exactly what I wrote.
The DAF 95 was as close to the XF as makes not much difference.It’s a nice place to work and live.
The MX 13 is an absolutely massive leap forward from the DK based motor.
You just ain’t going to beat the shift quality of the Fuller also a big leap forward from the 9 and 13 speed.
Agreed I don’t know how they did it but the 16 speed synchro in the DAF 85/95 is as close as a synchro box will ever get to the shift quality of the Fuller.
While legislation suggests that I could put the MX 13 ( possibly matched with the Fuller ) in the 95 and by date of registration delete the limiter and the smog kit.
What’s not to like and shows why your original premise has loads of shades of grey in it. Legislation having done as much to damage truck design progession as anything else.
Unless you really prefer a synchro box let alone auto, speed limiters, and engines wrecked by having to run on their exhaust gases instead of proper clean air and loads of other built in smog aggro and electronics interfering with the driver’s job, all just waiting to go wrong.

[punchy_dan]

gazsa401:
I always thought the ERF “E” Series cab was better than the “EC” cab
Obviously the “EC” was improved with the Olympic version
Thanks Gary

As a lover and driver of both the faults are the poxy door cards & handles on both models also the dash .other than that both excellent lorries .

[zb_anorak]

Punchy Dan:

gazsa401:
I always thought the ERF “E” Series cab was better than the “EC” cab
Obviously the “EC” was improved with the Olympic version
Thanks Gary

As a lover and driver of both the faults are the poxy door cards & handles on both models also the dash .other than that both excellent lorries .

The interior of ERFs is full of cheapo plastic mouldings. If you are in the business of running very old lorries, maybe it is worthwhile employing a joiner and an upholsterer, and doing it like it could have been done in the first place:

Is this relevant to the thread? Yes! Elsewhere on the forum, a Merc operator says the NG was a retrograde step, in terms of driver accommodation. If you include the Wackenhut version of the LP, it’s no contest.

[suedehead]

No … . and proscecco is ■■■■

[ramone]

I think I would much sooner have a 4000 series Foden double drive on my job than the crap that’s being turned out today , well on our fleet anyway , a MAN double drive 440 manual with comfort switch ffs or the alternative Merc 450 auto with rear lift , the Germans have got it all wrong and this was the point of the thread have we moved forward with designs or just made it easier for anyone to drive a lorry. The gadgets in the Merc that tell me I have gone over a white line , I’m overspeeding (yes I know because I can’t get it to move on the flat never mind a hill) dropping down a gear and revving the balls off the engine on the slightest decline. I would prefer to go back to basics within reason

[franglais]

[zb]
anorak:

Punchy Dan:

gazsa401:
I always thought the ERF “E” Series cab was better than the “EC” cab
Obviously the “EC” was improved with the Olympic version
Thanks Gary

As a lover and driver of both the faults are the poxy door cards & handles on both models also the dash .other than that both excellent lorries .

The interior of ERFs is full of cheapo plastic mouldings. If you are in the business of running very old lorries, maybe it is worthwhile employing a joiner and an upholsterer, and doing it like it could have been done in the first place:
0
Is this relevant to the thread? Yes! Elsewhere on the forum, a Merc operator says the NG was a retrograde step, in terms of driver accommodation. If you include the Wackenhut version of the LP, it’s no contest.

Some of it is down to speccing the right vehicle for a particular job. A luxurious fabric interior won`t be popular with the muck-away lads.

And I may not be in a majority, but I prefer a rubber or hard plastic interior although Im on more distance based work. Getting in or out when its filthy slush and snow, or mud, shouldnt involve putting boots on and off repeatedly. I want a floor that is washable, not summat that requires dry cleaning only! Put woolly mats over it by all means if you like, but if you can`t chuck a bucket of hot soapy water in it, no thanks.

Simple, easy to clean, minimalist for me.

[gazsa401]

When I was at Stirlands we took over Imperial Tobaccos fleet when they decided to finish their own account transport
The fleet consisted of around a dozen Seddon Atkinson Stratos 9 of the cabtech variety and 3 of the Iveco cabbed varieties
The Iveco cabbed Seddons were definitely a step back especially regarding driver comfort in my own opinion

[wheel_nut]

The finest installation of a ZF16 speed synchro box was fitted by MAN with Comfort Shift

[ramone]

Wheel Nut:
The finest installation of a ZF16 speed synchro box was fitted by MAN with Comfort Shift

IMHO the worst installation of a 16 speed ZF box is by MAN mines terrible hopefully my Daf wont be too long before its back

[zb_anorak]

ERF-NGC-European:
… A driver might well claim that a classic example is the sleeper-cab B-series which replaced the NGC with the 7MW cab.

…
Eurostar vs Stralis: the creature comforts of the Stralis far and away outstripped the Eurostar…

Rowena

Was the factory B Series a step back from the NGC, in terms of interior fittings? The early examples looked almost classy, with their black-and-tan trim, and velour seat facings.

How would the Eurostar compare to the earlier Fiats- 190-35 and Turbostar?

[wheel_nut]

( One mans meat etc.))
The DAF F241 was a superb vehicle in all its forms although I did prefer driving an Eaton Fuller fitted version more, it wasn’t a long love affair as I changed jobs and got a new 3300 Ati with ZF Ecosplit.

I didn’t have a real lot to do with the DAF 95 although did have a CF 85 which I loved. With MAN I had a full range with 13 speed E/F and 12 speed T/S and then got a 16s ZF from 320 through 360 to 420 horses.

((Another mans poison.)))

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[erf-ngc-european]

Wheel Nut:
The finest installation of a ZF16 speed synchro box was fitted by MAN with Comfort Shift

It was indeed a fine installation (for a synchro-box) but was ruined by that unnecessary and irritating Comfort Shift that used to beep at you if you refused to use it! I used it in the ERF ECT and it matched the ■■■■■■■ beautifully. Why not let the driver get on with his job without harassing him with gimmicks?

As you say: ‘one man’s meat…’! You mention the Twin-splitter in the MAN and the installation in early F90s was excellent.

I reckon the best modern ZF manual box installation was in the DAF 95, DAF 95X, DAF 85 CF and that cracking 9-sp ZF in the DAF 18-tonner.

[erf-ngc-european]

[zb]
anorak:

ERF-NGC-European:
… A driver might well claim that a classic example is the sleeper-cab B-series which replaced the NGC with the 7MW cab.

…
Eurostar vs Stralis: the creature comforts of the Stralis far and away outstripped the Eurostar…

Rowena

Was the factory B Series a step back from the NGC, in terms of interior fittings? The early examples looked almost classy, with their black-and-tan trim, and velour seat facings.

How would the Eurostar compare to the earlier Fiats- 190-35 and Turbostar?

You are right about the cab and its fittings and trimmings: the B-series was arguably a better cab than the MP NGC one but the NGC drive-line was more fun from a driving point of view!

As for the Iveco, I can’t answer because I never drove any Iveco before the Eurostar came out. However, I can guarantee I’d have enjoyed the 480 Turbo Star with the Fuller in it!

[ramone]

ERF-NGC-European:

[zb]
anorak:

ERF-NGC-European:
… A driver might well claim that a classic example is the sleeper-cab B-series which replaced the NGC with the 7MW cab.

…
Eurostar vs Stralis: the creature comforts of the Stralis far and away outstripped the Eurostar…

Rowena

Was the factory B Series a step back from the NGC, in terms of interior fittings? The early examples looked almost classy, with their black-and-tan trim, and velour seat facings.

How would the Eurostar compare to the earlier Fiats- 190-35 and Turbostar?

You are right about the cab and its fittings and trimmings: the B-series was arguably a better cab than the MP NGC one but the NGC drive-line was more fun from a driving point of view!

As for the Iveco, I can’t answer because I never drove any Iveco before the Eurostar came out. However, I can guarantee I’d have enjoyed the 480 Turbo Star with the Fuller in it!

I drove both the 480 Turbostar and a few Eurostars with lesser engines . The Turbostar was breathtaking at 480 and wasn’t bad at 360 but the cabs were very cramped whereas the Eurostars were spacious but i never liked them .
I couldnt agree more with your comments regarding the comfort switch on the MAN , but the one i drive is very stiff and notchy but then again the main dealer is crap

[newmercman]

IMHO it’s all about the engine, Euro3 were the best engines made, EDC gave good mpg, power and reliability, anything after that was too complicated and often unreliable. A 164-480 or an FH12 460 were better than any of the castrated lorries that followed.

[zb_anorak]

newmercman:
IMHO it’s all about the engine, Euro3 were the best engines made, EDC gave good mpg, power and reliability, anything after that was too complicated and often unreliable. A 164-480 or an FH12 460 were better than any of the castrated lorries that followed.

Lots of people moaned about EDC. I was told by a bloke who had one of the first 144-460s that it was not a patch on his 143-450s, at least in terms of performance. At the time, I remember reading that Euro 3 was the first round of emissions rules to actually hobble development, because it effected a reduction in combustion temperature, which stalled progress in fuel economy. I’m voting for Euro 2 as Peak Diesel. I reckon that, if they had left it at that, we would have far superior vehicles now. A few wisps of NO₂ never hurt anyone.