the story of shap..

[m.a.n rules]

https://youtu.be/oQPpfTQqyQk.

a brilliant 4 part film .. enjoy.

[ERF-NGC-European]

https://youtu.be/oQPpfTQqyQk.

a brilliant 4 part film .. enjoy.

Thanks for sharing this, 'm.a.n.'! This is a superb documentary about the history of the road over Shap Fell. It's beautifully made and being a 1984 film, it has none of the inane frenetic background music that ruins all today's documentaries. You say it is in 4 parts but it is in 11 parts and lasts for just one hour. It makes a very pleasant hour's viewing if relaxing after lunch on winter's Friday afternoon!

Perhaps when perusing other threads, we can all copy and paste any of the many Shap pictures, stories and references on this thread to create a potted history. If there's already a Shap thread, then the link to that can be popped on here and the link to this popped on there (if you see what I mean!). Cheers.

Ro

[240 Gardner]

Perhaps when perusing other threads, we can all copy and paste any of the many Shap pictures, stories and references on this thread to create a potted history. If there's already a Shap thread, then the link to that can be popped on here and the link to this popped on there (if you see what I mean!). Cheers.

Ro

There is another, and quite a recent one: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=145340

I imagine there will be others too.

Here's one of the stars of the video, and coupled to the same trailer, albeit several years earlier:

The video is much later than 1984, though - more like mid-90s

[Eddie Heaton]

Thanks for posting the link to the Shap video m.a.n rules. It's great to see proper wagons in action again. Unfortunately, for me at least, the vision of the supposedly freighted Tennant wagon and drag breezing up towards the summit at 25 mph doesn't quite coincide with the mental image that I still retain of watching Fred Rose's KV cabbed ERF eight leggers grinding up at walking pace, fully freighted with newsreel from Cooke & Nuttall at Horwich , destined for Dundee.

To be fair, I've only watched the first couple of minutes of the first part. There may be more resonant images to be viewed in subsequent parts.

I do realise of course that we all owe a debt of gratitude to all those vintage vehicle restorers and enthusiasts for their efforts in coming even close to reproducing historical scenes.

The pinnacle of road haulage in the UK, ( to my mind that is ), occurred during the mid 50s to mid 60s, so It would be practically impossible to reproduce a plausible re-enactment of those Halcyon days.

Fair play to everyone involved in these historic vehicle events, but I guess I'm probably too much of a purist and need to accept that history is history,.....end of.

[stargazer148]

Thanks for the link. I was going to the lakes on holiday and dropped off to go over shap we stopped at the memorial and found it a very humbling experience Mrs gazer was quite taken with it.Highest respect to the drivers of the day Cheers Ray

[JFC999]

Thanks for the link , just watched the whole programme , enjoyed it all.
Then got diverted on you tube been listening to all sorts !
Grand.
Jim

[240 Gardner]

Thanks for the link , just watched the whole programme , enjoyed it all.
Then got diverted on you tube been listening to all sorts !
Grand.
Jim

YouTube is a rabbit warren that can easily steal your whole day!

[240 Gardner]

Thanks for posting the link to the Shap video m.a.n rules. It's great to see proper wagons in action again. Unfortunately, for me at least, the vision of the supposedly freighted Tennant wagon and drag breezing up towards the summit at 25 mph doesn't quite coincide with the mental image that I still retain of watching Fred Rose's KV cabbed ERF eight leggers grinding up at walking pace, fully freighted with newsreel from Cooke & Nuttall at Horwich , destined for Dundee.

To be fair, I've only watched the first couple of minutes of the first part. There may be more resonant images to be viewed in subsequent parts.

I do realise of course that we all owe a debt of gratitude to all those vintage vehicle restorers and enthusiasts for their efforts in coming even close to reproducing historical scenes.

The pinnacle of road haulage in the UK, ( to my mind that is ), occurred during the mid 50s to mid 60s, so It would be practically impossible to reproduce a plausible re-enactment of those Halcyon days.

Fair play to everyone involved in these historic vehicle events, but I guess I'm probably too much of a purist and need to accept that history is history,.....end of.

If it's any consolation Eddie, I did the two-day North of England Road Run for most of the 1990s with a well-freighted test trailer. Including setting off from, and returning home to Lancashire, it involved four crossings of the Pennines, plus Shap, The Military Road running parallel with the A69, and then the A68 back from Hexham down to Consett.

As an illustration of the contrast in how different people approach these events, I have a VHS video from 1998, showing wagons climbing Glen Welt, which is where you leave the A69 at Greenhead, west of Haltwhistle and climb up onto the B6318, the Military Road along the Hadrian's Wall. Glen Welt is, I think, a 1-in-6, and you approach it from a standing start at a T junction at the bottom. The first wagon up is Tyson Burridge's gleaming unladen Albion Reiver flat, being driven by Bob Tuck, storming up, flashing the lights and waving at everyone.

The very next is my Mk.2 Atkinson, with green mould on the cab roof and pulling a test trailer carrying 18T of concrete. It was being propelled by its original and rather tired 180 Gardner, which has never been overhauled since it went into the wagon in 1969. You can literally watch every single wheelnut going round as it drags itself up the bank, foot-by-foot. I was grateful for the Fuller gearbox with a proper crawler! It was a similar picture on the A68, over Kiln Pit Hill, Allensford and Tow Law Moor before dropping down into West Auckland. I think that was probably the single most enjoyable road run I ever did.

[Eddie Heaton]

I sincerely hope that I haven't caused offence to anyone with my previous comments.

I have never personally been involved in any historic vehicle events, although, like many others I've spent a fair percentage of my working life earning a living driving historic vehicles up and down the country.

Like most drivers, I never enjoyed the luxury of being able to choose what vehicle I drove, it was merely a case of working with what I was given, and it would most probably have been in the late 70s, or early 80s, when the second hand foreign marques began to become more widely available that things finally started to improve, and even then, you could still find yourself being lumbered with a day cabbed, Gardner powered S39 Foden.

Ironically, I'd pay to have a go in one now, so I can see the attraction of these events.

Not to stray too far from the Shap theme though; back in the late 60s, I could often be found grinding up from Kendal in an ancient Mammoth Major eight legger tipper loaded with 14 tons of loose sugar from Sankey at Earlestown, destined for a refinery at Port Glasgow, returning the following day loaded with scrap metal from Leith docks heading for Birmingham.

It never dawned on me at that time what fun I was having, as even then, this ancient motor, capable of 37mph on a good day, could have quite legitimately been considered to have been a worthy candidate for the Leyland museum.

But speaking of having a fun day out Chris, quite a number of years ago, when the UKIP party was still in its relative infancy, I was called upon to drive one of their two promotion vehicles round my local area FOC during the run up to the local elections. I have no affiliation with either UKIP or any other political group incidentally, I just happened to be " resting " temporarily between jobs at the time.

The vehicle in question was an old AEC open topped double decker bus, the other vehicle being a Dennis fire engine. My remit was to go anywhere I wished within the area, blasting out Acker Bilk from speakers connected to an equally geriatric tape deck.

Well, what a brilliant time I had driving around Wigan wearing my fedora hat. Waiting aeons for the engine revs to die down before slipping the crash box into the next cog. Standing up in the half-cab to pull the beast round from Wallgate down into Library st, ( or it could have been King st back then , I forget, as they're constantly buggering about with the one way system around here ), to the great amusement of the local bus drivers.

Now it may sound as though I'm being sarcastic, but far from it. I really enjoyed it, and it instantly transported me back to my early driving days. In fact, if I was invited to do it again tomorrow, I'd be there like a shot.

I'm not overly certain that I'd want to do it day in, day out, constantly, for weeks and years on end though, as a means of paying the bills.

[[zb] anorak]

That's a V8 Mandator in Part 7, if I'm not mistaken.

[ERF-NGC-European]

That's a V8 Mandator in Part 7, if I'm not mistaken.

You're not mistaken. The clips are taken from the film showing the test runs AEC conducted with full load on. I used to have the video of it.

Ro

[[zb] anorak]

That's a V8 Mandator in Part 7, if I'm not mistaken.

You're not mistaken. The clips are taken from the film showing the test runs AEC conducted with full load on. I used to have the video of it.

Ro

Aha! So it's not part of the preserved-vehicle convoy shown in the rest of the film- it's actual archive footage of a new AEC climbing the hill in pre-M6 days? If so, it's making quite a bit of smoke for a new machine, especially one in the care of its maker's development engineers. For a counterpoint, I remember reading the CM test report for the Scania 140 6 wheel drawbar outfit, in a 1970 issue, IIRC. The tester said that it climbed Shap without any visible smoke. I would put the report here, but it is in another computer, which is ill.*

I am interested in old everything, not just lorries. These laptops are 16 years old. My big computer is from the last century, and still does a good day's work.

[240 Gardner]

I sincerely hope that I haven't caused offence to anyone with my previous comments.

I have never personally been involved in any historic vehicle events, although, like many others I've spent a fair percentage of my working life earning a living driving historic vehicles up and down the country.

Like most drivers, I never enjoyed the luxury of being able to choose what vehicle I drove, it was merely a case of working with what I was given, and it would most probably have been in the late 70s, or early 80s, when the second hand foreign marques began to become more widely available that things finally started to improve, and even then, you could still find yourself being lumbered with a day cabbed, Gardner powered S39 Foden.

Ironically, I'd pay to have a go in one now, so I can see the attraction of these events.

Not to stray too far from the Shap theme though; back in the late 60s, I could often be found grinding up from Kendal in an ancient Mammoth Major eight legger tipper loaded with 14 tons of loose sugar from Sankey at Earlestown, destined for a refinery at Port Glasgow, returning the following day loaded with scrap metal from Leith docks heading for Birmingham.

It never dawned on me at that time what fun I was having, as even then, this ancient motor, capable of 37mph on a good day, could have quite legitimately been considered to have been a worthy candidate for the Leyland museum.

But speaking of having a fun day out Chris, quite a number of years ago, when the UKIP party was still in its relative infancy, I was called upon to drive one of their two promotion vehicles round my local area FOC during the run up to the local elections. I have no affiliation with either UKIP or any other political group incidentally, I just happened to be " resting " temporarily between jobs at the time.

The vehicle in question was an old AEC open topped double decker bus, the other vehicle being a Dennis fire engine. My remit was to go anywhere I wished within the area, blasting out Acker Bilk from speakers connected to an equally geriatric tape deck.

Well, what a brilliant time I had driving around Wigan wearing my fedora hat. Waiting aeons for the engine revs to die down before slipping the crash box into the next cog. Standing up in the half-cab to pull the beast round from Wallgate down into Library st, ( or it could have been King st back then , I forget, as they're constantly buggering about with the one way system around here ), to the great amusement of the local bus drivers.

Now it may sound as though I'm being sarcastic, but far from it. I really enjoyed it, and it instantly transported me back to my early driving days. In fact, if I was invited to do it again tomorrow, I'd be there like a shot.

I'm not overly certain that I'd want to do it day in, day out, constantly, for weeks and years on end though, as a means of paying the bills.

I'm sure you haven't caused anyone any offence, Eddie! Since I moved south over 20 years ago, I've had very little opportunity to play out in old motors, and I certainly miss it - I had a day-and-a-half in a Borderer in August 2019 (2020 was lost of course) and had a whale of a time, although bouncing around bobtail is nothing like having it well freighted and grunting accordingly.

The irony you mention about wanting to go back to sample the S39 again is not lost on me! As for any fun you might have had with that Mammoth Major, well.... Meanwhile, it sounds like your joyriding at UKIP's expense might have been quite fun, at least for the novelty value. I've never driven a half-cab 'decker but I'd like to, just for the experience. In your shoes, though, I'd have wanted to disguise myself so as not to be associated with all the Acker Bilk output. Perhaps that's why you had the Fedora?? I can't offer any guidance on Wigan's streets, I'm afraid: I'm a Preston chap.

[whisperingsmith]

Really enjoyable film.

I guess Shap is the UK's equivalent to Tahir, although Tahir is around 9,000' to Shap's 1350'

Also different road surfaces with Shap being tarmac & Tahir originally just graded dirt. Although with snow cover from November to March/April the underlying road surface didn't really matter, Tahir was smoother running in winter.

Some of the more modern motors in the Shap film made it over Tahir:- The odd Mandator, Guy Invincible, Atkinson were to be seen, and some even made it back to the UK.

The film brings back memories of how cold winter can get, even in a wagon with an efficient heater in it.

[ERF-NGC-European]

That's a V8 Mandator in Part 7, if I'm not mistaken.

You're not mistaken. The clips are taken from the film showing the test runs AEC conducted with full load on. I used to have the video of it.

Ro

Aha! So it's not part of the preserved-vehicle convoy shown in the rest of the film- it's actual archive footage of a new AEC climbing the hill in pre-M6 days? If so, it's making quite a bit of smoke for a new machine, especially one in the care of its maker's development engineers. For a counterpoint, I remember reading the CM test report for the Scania 140 6 wheel drawbar outfit, in a 1970 issue, IIRC. The tester said that it climbed Shap without any visible smoke. I would put the report here, but it is in another computer, which is ill.*

I am interested in old everything, not just lorries. These laptops are 16 years old. My big computer is from the last century, and still does a good day's work.

The V8 was being driven very hard in the film with a standard fully-laden test trailer on. It was called Southall Twilight IIRC and it may be on youtube now for all I know. I'll have a look later...

[cav551]

[ I've never driven a half-cab 'decker but I'd like to, just for the experience. .

Not wishing to pollute a most enjoyable thread which is to many of us about the holy of holies but, since you mentioned it, these two may give a little bit of atmosphere regarding driving vintage 'deckers. A little volume is required to enjoy? the full experience. In the second one from about the 8 minute mark there is some very rapid progress down the 'box as it nearly runs out of puff again. The Utube poster has some excellent videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wLB-ap90lw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBsVtuS3O0k

[m.a.n rules]

your certainly not polluting it cav your enriching it the more that put any transport films on the better..

[Eddie Heaton]

My first experience of Shap would have been when I was still at school. My mate and myself were well into wagons at this time and we'd heard stories about Woodhead, Snake, Blackstone edge etc. from drivers we'd spoken to, plus stories relating to the legendary Shap fell.

So, one summer holiday we decided we'd hitch-hike up to Inverness..... ( well why not?.).....

With our tent, sleeping bags, copious supplies of mandarin orange segments, cans of pineapple chunks, and a fortnight's supply of Wills' Woodbines stashed in our WW2 rucksacks, we set out from a point directly opposite the now defunct public conveniences on Wigan road in Ashton in Makerfield one sunny Saturday afternoon in July.

The first lift we got was in a wagon, but I don't recall much detail. We passed through Wigan , on the A49 obviously, but I don't actually remember where he dropped us off. I do remember though that we had to walk a couple of miles into Bamber Bridge, so it would most likely have been the turnoff for Lostock Hall and Penwortham.

We traversed Preston by some means or another, then up through Lancaster and Carnforth, arriving in Kendal sometime in the mid afternoon, thanks to the gracious intervention of a couple of handsome young ladies in a ragtop Triumph Herald on their way to Appleby.

Being unable to obtain a lift at this juncture, we proceeded to walk in the direction of Penrith.

We didn't actually make it as far as the Jungle, but having covered several miles, and with the light fading, we thought it prudent to call it a day at this point, so we set up camp in a wooded area over a wall next to the A6.

I've had a look on Google street view and despite the intervening 60 years, I remain confident that I have located the exact spot. ( I'll insert the picture at the end of this diatribe ).

It will be noted that the 25% 'slope of the land doesn't exactly lend itself to camping, so after 7 hours or so of sliding downhill and emerging feet first under the edge of the canvas, we eventually gave up, packed up and decided to move on.

Being about 3 a.m. and pitch black by this time, we were finding it difficult to get a lift, so my mate hit on this bright idea of flashing his torch about. ( fnarr, fnarr.)
So this poor bloke in an Albion Claymore, ( those were the ones with the crew cab and an underfloor engine weren't they ? ), well he stops for us thinking we were the police.

He wasn't best pleased at first I seem to recall, but he warmed to us after a while and took us all the way to Carlisle.

I remember laughing when he jokingly said that he was loaded with 6 tons of bedpans for Workington or some place, although I didn't really know what a bedpan was at that time.

I don't recall whether we stopped at the Jungle on that occasion or not, but I think we may have pulled in at that milk machine, the one on the left at Eamont Bridge, where you need to turn left to go to Pooley Bridge. ( long gone now of course ).

Well, this thread states " The Story of Shap " , and it's a story, of sorts, and it involves crossing Shap fell in the 60s.

I do realise that I'm pushing the envelope a bit here, and I apologise for boring anyone, but in my defence,.... have any of you ever watched any of these t.v. reality shows lately?.......FFS.

Oh! and before I forget, here's the street view shot of the campsite, 60 years down the road.....Nothing's changed.

[Eddie Heaton]

I took this photo in 2014.

It's highly likely that a similar image of this memorial already exists, lurking somewhere among the various threads on this forum, although as yet, I haven't come across it.

There can be little doubt that 99% of visitors to the trucknet site have seen it, or at least, are aware of its existence, but for the remaining 1% who either haven't, or aren't, then here it is.

I guess it's as fitting a thread as I'm ever likely to find.

[Dennis Javelin]

I took this photo in 2014.

It's highly likely that a similar image of this memorial already exists, lurking somewhere among the various threads on this forum, although as yet, I haven't come across it.

There can be little doubt that 99% of visitors to the trucknet site have seen it, or at least, are aware of its existence, but for the remaining 1% who either haven't, or aren't, then here it is.

I guess it's as fitting a thread as I'm ever likely to find.

I'm firmly in the 1% so thanks for this. I know that folks outside of our industry might find it strange to have a plaque for a road but for the vast majority of us this road has had some effect on our lives to one extent or the other so, to me, it seems quite fitting. I have told the story in another thread of how, in the summer of 1968 as a 12yr old, I travelled from Glasgow to Stoke via Shap in the cab of an AEC Mandator that was 10 ton overloaded. I think I can probably pinpoint that journey as the start of my love affair with the transport business.

[m.a.n rules]

we were on hols 2019 lake district so i done the pilgramage cracking drive in the car. also went to kendal arts centre and had my pic with the leyland clock..bloody windy up there..

[rigsby]

Back in the day Whitehaven was a regular run , plodding over Shap in a twin steer Foden s21 , 5 pot Gardner and 4 speed box . The Jungle was a welcome stop , especially in winter although I never encountered the heavy snow .

[240 Gardner]

[ I've never driven a half-cab 'decker but I'd like to, just for the experience. .

Not wishing to pollute a most enjoyable thread which is to many of us about the holy of holies but, since you mentioned it, these two may give a little bit of atmosphere regarding driving vintage 'deckers. A little volume is required to enjoy? the full experience. In the second one from about the 8 minute mark there is some very rapid progress down the 'box as it nearly runs out of puff again. The Utube poster has some excellent videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wLB-ap90lw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBsVtuS3O0k

Thanks very much for those links - pretty much the same view I used to have as a small boy behind the driver on Preston Corporation's Leylands!

The chap obviously knows his way around the box very competently, although I do think he leaves some of his down changes a bit late going uphill - by the time he's shifted down, he's already missed the peak torque in the new gear.

[240 Gardner]

.

[Suedehead]

Proper whiteout

[cav551]

[ I've never driven a half-cab 'decker but I'd like to, just for the experience. .

Not wishing to pollute a most enjoyable thread which is to many of us about the holy of holies but, since you mentioned it, these two may give a little bit of atmosphere regarding driving vintage 'deckers. A little volume is required to enjoy? the full experience. In the second one from about the 8 minute mark there is some very rapid progress down the 'box as it nearly runs out of puff again. The Utube poster has some excellent videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wLB-ap90lw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBsVtuS3O0k

Thanks very much for those links - pretty much the same view I used to have as a small boy behind the driver on Preston Corporation's Leylands!

The chap obviously knows his way around the box very competently, although I do think he leaves some of his down changes a bit late going uphill - by the time he's shifted down, he's already missed the peak torque in the new gear.

I have put another of John Lidstone's U Tube videos on the Buses Coaches Lorries Thread. This one has some distraction from people talking and is from the n/s/f passenger seat, but one can still see what the driver is doing. I had though that a KS5G was a single decker but it seems I am wrong, that adds at least another couple of tons to the gross weight and the need for timing 1st gear.

[240 Gardner]

I had though that a KS5G was a single decker but it seems I am wrong, that adds at least another couple of tons to the gross weight and the need for timing 1st gear.

A K is a double decker, and the equivalent single decker is an L in Brizzle speak, and 5G means a 5LW

[cattle wagon man]

To those who have followed `The Story Of Shap` on video or DVD , I have just read today of the sad loss
of Lenore Knowles` s husband , Thomas . Lenore wound the famous `Leyland Clock` , taking the job over
from her father . Thomas and Lenore farmed at Hollowgate Farm for many years .

[240 Gardner]

To those who have followed `The Story Of Shap` on video or DVD , I have just read today of the sad loss
of Lenore Knowles` s husband , Thomas . Lenore wound the famous `Leyland Clock` , taking the job over
from her father . Thomas and Lenore farmed at Hollowgate Farm for many years .

That's sad to hear. I was there when she gave her speech at the unveiling of the memorial, and it was very interesting to hear about her family's history with the Fell and the clock