A policeman took my ADR virginity!

As most will know, I do Class 2 pallet work with a good percentage of my loads being ADR. Ranging from things like IBC’s of Formaldehyde to farmers to life-rafts for yachts. Yes a life-raft is an ADR load, as it has compressed gas and flares… Anyway, I have my orange plates down 99% of the time, and at some point knew these DVSA/Police “MAGNETS” would get me a date with those in uniform…

It happened this week at the end of the day, just when i was hoping to have a reasonable early day (After doing a couple of long ones) So it’s probably my own fault for looking forward to a reasonable finish time! I’d just made my last collection and had my plates down as I still had a couple of ADR loads on that I hadn’t been able to deliver for one reason or another. Anyway, i was sat on the roundabout behind another truck waiting for the lights to change when i noticed a police car pull up in the lane to the left of me. The lights changed, the truck in front pulled way and the police car cut in front of me, which I initially assumed was because he wanted to continue around the roundabout and not get off where his initial lane dictated. So I had a little chuckle and under my breath called him a cheeky bugger, but thought nothing more about it. About 30 seconds later with him now in front of me heading on to the motorway, he popped up the “follow me” message in his back window, and yes i was now no longer chuckling or laughing, as I knew my relatively early finish was evaporating into the ether. But at the same time I wasn’t too bothered, as i knew I hadn’t done anything wrong and guessed this was just a routine stop. Being a Newbie who’d never been stopped before, it did make me feel a bit apprehensive though, and I could feel the butterflies in my stomach going a bit ballistic. It felt like an eternity to drive the mile or so down the motorway to the services, and be guided into the truck parking area by the police car, where we eventually stopped with him at the head of a bay and me in behind.

As you can imagine, the first things he asked for was my licence, my DCPC & ADR cards, plus whether I was carrying ADR loads. I handed over all that he requested, stated that I was carrying ADR and proceeded to go through my paperwork for documentation of my ADR loads. I also informed him that i was a Newbie, hadn’t been stopped before and he’d taken my virginity! Probably not the best idea that last bit, but I tend to crack a joke when i’m nervous, and I did get a smile from the officer who did his best to keep his firm and authoritarian demeanor. Anyway, once that was all checked he asked to see in the back and off we went. I opened up the rear (dropped the tail-lift) and in we went with torches, as it was now getting dark.

The officer immediately seemed very interested in one of my collections which I’d picked up from a well known paint company, which on my collection note from that morning, was detailed as “limited quantities”. So in my eyes, was not an ADR load. However the policeman was not convinced by this, and proceeded to investigate the pallet further, writing down the UN numbers and quantities of what i was carrying. He then headed back to his car to consult his thick ADR books, and upon his return asked if I had any wrap, as he wanted to break the pallet down as he believed I was over the “limited quantities” threshold on one of the products i was carrying. By now I realised I was going to be here for some time, so texted my TM to say I was with the police and would be late back to the depot. Those are not the exact words i used, but I knew my TM would be amuse by the ones i chose!

So the police man and I broke the pallet down, and he proceeded to go over every product in it with, a fine tooth comb. This (once he’d checked his books again) resulted in him informing me that I was indeed over the limited quantities, as I was carrying some containers of a product that were 7.5l, when the limit in his book was 5l. However, he was unable to find the Packing Group details on the tins, and nor could I. Although I was too tired and mentally exhausted to care by now, as I didn’t know what would be happening now as a result of this alleged breach… All I could do was assist the officer in anyway I could, and knew that to do anything else would just be making my own life harder. But I did get the feeling by now that this officer was possibly recently trained in ADR checks, and was possibly practicing/exercising his knowledge, so I did wonder to myself if he had his information correct. Part of that was because the well know specialist paint company this pallet belonged to, sends lots of loads through us, and when they are ADR, they are marked up as such, & this one wasn’t… So my thinking was that the paint company’s ADR experts were probably a bit more knowledgeable with the regs, than this police man. But that was just my hunch, which I kept it to myself, as i’m not qualified to argue, or even know how to use the 2 big ADR books as yet…

By now my TM has given me a call & asked if everything is OK, so i briefly explain the situation to him and ask if he would like to speak to the police man, as I was too tired and therefore by my own admission struggling to ensure I was fully comprehending exactly what was going on… The police officer stated to my TM that I was over the “limited quantities” and asked my TM who our DGSA was? (Dangerous Goods Safety Adviser) The officer had already asked me who it was, and I didn’t have a clue! I actually still don’t, but do now know that we use a sub-contractor (It could be DieselDave for all I know! ) The officer also stated to my TM (as he had to me) that he COULD impound the vehicle there and then until the pallet was properly marked up and paperwork in order, but said that as it was only a minor breach would amend my paperwork and let me be on my way, as I was now only heading back to the depot.

All of this, including putting the pallet back together and checking all of my safety equipment took close to 2 hours, and my early-ish finish for that day had evaporated! I ended up booking 13.5 hours (excluding breaks) to go with the 12+ hours I’d worked the 2 previous days. So when i got back to the depot I left a note for my planner that I was having a short day the next day, and he duly obliged!

Not sure what the moral of the story is, other than having ADR can get you more hours as well as more pay!
I just thought I’d post this to give other Newbies an insight of what can go wrong…
I’ll let DieselDave tell me what I did wrong!

I used to collect fireworks for a small time firm, you could take up to 500 NEC before you needed an ADR ticket. Many a time I’ve looked at the paper to refuse it only for them to disapear off to the office with it only to come back with it magically under 500. I didn’t work for that outfit for very long. These days I only take limited quanties since no ADR for me.

Had many checks over the years and still feel a bit apprehensive every time, but almost all of the people I’ve dealt with have been professional and friendly. Even got away with the odd dodgy card before now, by being polite honest and up front with them.

Although these days I much prefer any checks to be done by DVSA than the police, too few good old school traffic officers left who knew their road law.
By the sounds of it you guy had just swallowed the book and wanted to find something to prove the point. I would get Diesel Dave to put his 10pence worth, he’s helped me a lot over the years. And if the pallet was wrong then your cmpany needs a quiet word with your supplier to explain their error.

Radar19:
I used to collect fireworks for a small time firm, you could take up to 500 NEC before you needed an ADR ticket. Many a time I’ve looked at the paper to refuse it only for them to disapear off to the office with it only to come back with it magically under 500. I didn’t work for that outfit for very long. These days I only take limited quanties since no ADR for me.

I believe that even if you are carrying quantities of dangerous goods below the ADR threshold you need an ADR awareness certificate.
And I also believe limited quantities are about pack size not about the quantities you’re carrying.

And this thread now really needs Diesel Dave.

muckles:
Had many checks over the years and still feel a bit apprehensive every time, but almost all of the people I’ve dealt with have been professional and friendly. Even got away with the odd dodgy card before now, by being polite honest and up front with them.

Although these days I much prefer any checks to be done by DVSA than the police, too few good old school traffic officers left who knew their road law.
By the sounds of it you guy had just swallowed the book and wanted to find something to prove the point. I would get Diesel Dave to put his 10pence worth, he’s helped me a lot over the years. And if the pallet was wrong then your cmpany needs a quiet word with your supplier to explain their error.

I wouldn’t have said this officer was friendly, but i do appreciate that they need to keep their professionalism, and this can sometimes either be a bit over the top, or come across as arrogant and standoffish. So I make no judgements about the officer, he has a job to do and can’t book a shift kipping in a lay-by. So I was polite, helpful and aided him in anyway i could. You can’t win an argument with a police officer, and I wouldn’t ever try… But i do wish I was a bit more knowledgeable, and at the time less tired so I could have investigated and checked his books to see if I was over the “limited quantities”. But I guess if I’m to do that, i may as well consider doing the DGSA exams…

I took a photocopy of the yellow form the officer gave me before I passed it on to my TM, but I can’t seem to find it now!
So I can’t even say what I was actually carrying at this moment… I’ll ask my TM again next week if i was over limited quantities, but I’m not holding my breath on finding out…

I thought it was down to the sender to make sure that the pallets are correctly marked, and to ensure that what’s on them comply with the markings. It seems strange that they would risk sending something that wasn’t complaint with limited quantities, or am I being gullible.

It is down to the supplier and their DGSA to ensure the load is packaged correctly and has the correct paperwork.

sounds to me that adr is a load of extra greif. i think that for the risk you take for those badges is it worth it fo £3 ph extra.

Digit369:
is it worth it for £3 ph extra.

All day if it was that much!!!

It’s only £1 an hour more bud… But that’s still £40 a week extra in my pocket for weekend beer!

Not spoken to you for a while Evil. Daft question but when you said had your plates down do you mean you took them off the vehicle. Just wondered if they have to be removed by law or whether you could just leave them on there even if only small quantities are being carried on vehicle.

I hope I get on as well as you seem to be when I finally get around to my cat c training and test.

JS8576:
Not spoken to you for a while Evil. Daft question but when you said had your plates down do you mean you took them off the vehicle. Just wondered if they have to be removed by law or whether you could just leave them on there even if only small quantities are being carried on vehicle.

I hope I get on as well as you seem to be when I finally get around to my cat c training and test.

Hi pal,

The orange metal plates front and rear fold in half. So when closed they are hidden, and when open (down) you are carrying ADR goods.
Hope that clears that up, and unless you know, it’s not a daft question pal!

Evil8Beezle:
The officer immediately seemed very interested in one of my collections which I’d picked up from a well known paint company, which on my collection note from that morning, was detailed as “limited quantities”. So in my eyes, was not an ADR load.

From the not quite complete info to hand… It’s quite possible that you were carrying an ‘overpack.’

An ‘overpack’ is simply a bunch of stuff in packages that’s all going to the same customer, so it’s been palletised for convenience.
It’s nothing more than that and ADR recognises ‘overpacks’ and has a definition for them. (= a bunch of packaged stuff on a pallet.)
I’ve avoided unnecessary technicality here.

In short, whether there’s an offence will depend on how the overpack and tins were marked, the sizes of the tins and the amount carried AND how it was all written on the paperwork.

Evil8Beezle:
However the policeman was not convinced by this, and proceeded to investigate the pallet further, writing down the UN numbers and quantities of what i was carrying. He then headed back to his car to consult his thick ADR books, and upon his return asked if I had any wrap, as he wanted to break the pallet down as he believed I was over the “limited quantities” threshold on one of the products i was carrying.

“Paint” has several entries in the ADR dangerous goods list, therefore there are several LQ sizes as well as a number of Special Provisions (SPs.)
SPs have the capability of altering the ‘normal’ carriage rules for any substance.

Without details such as the exact description of the paint, the sizes of the tins, the marking and labelling of the tins and overpack and the way it was all written on your paperwork, then unfortunately nobody can give you an accurate answer.

if there’s a mix of LQs and normally packaged stuff all carried together, then the whole amount of LQs is disregarded, whilst the other paint could be carried by use of the 20/333/1000 litre small load exemption. There’s simply not enough detail for me to say anything more about whether the full weight of ADR applied to that particular load or not, or even whether you needed to display your orange police magnets.
There’s nothing to stop somebody using the LQ exemption for the LQs and the small load exemption for the stuff not packaged as LQs for the same load.

Evil8Beezle:
So the police man and I broke the pallet down, and he proceeded to go over every product in it with, a fine tooth comb. This (once he’d checked his books again) resulted in him informing me that I was indeed over the limited quantities, as I was carrying some containers of a product that were 7.5l, when the limit in his book was 5l. However, he was unable to find the Packing Group details on the tins, and nor could I.

It’s quite possible that some of the paint contained in an overpack could be packaged as LQs, whilst the rest of the same overpack contains paint not packaged as LQs. All perfectly legal.
There’s no requirement for the Packing Group to be written on the tins, but it should be written on the paperwork if carriage exceeds the LQ size for the paint in question… in the UK, this only applies of the load also exceeds the ADR small-load threshold though.

Evil8Beezle:
So my thinking was that the paint company’s ADR experts were probably a bit more knowledgeable with the regs, than this police man. But that was just my hunch, which I kept it to myself, as i’m not qualified to argue, or even know how to use the 2 big ADR books as yet…

For now, I can tell you that the paint company (and almost any other ‘sender’) should have their own qualified DGSA, and that (from what you’ve said so far) they have the responsibility to ensure that the load is compliant with ADR before they send it out.
As an employed driver, ADR doesn’t expect you to have done anything other than what you’ve said you did.

Evil8Beezle:
By now my TM has given me a call & asked if everything is OK, so i briefly explain the situation to him and ask if he would like to speak to the police man, as I was too tired and therefore by my own admission struggling to ensure I was fully comprehending exactly what was going on… The police officer stated to my TM that I was over the “limited quantities” and asked my TM who our DGSA was? (Dangerous Goods Safety Adviser) The officer had already asked me who it was, and I didn’t have a clue!

Knowing whereabout in the country you are… I can tell you that it isn’t a good place to be discrepant with ADR stuff cos there’s a Police Sgt there who is a qualified DGSA.
I know this because he threw the book (there were nine ADR offences!! ) at somebody I know was running without having appointed a qualified DGSA, so I ended up getting the job of sorting it all out for him. It was very clearly an exercise in shutting the stable door after the horse had bolted though.

Mystic Dave predicts that you boss might receive a written communication informing him that the facts of the case have been reported (by the police) to the HSE and/or the Traffic Commissioner.
There was also a written request for the haulier concerned to produce the last five annual DGSA reports.

Evil8Beezle:
I actually still don’t, but do now know that we use a sub-contractor (It could be DieselDave for all I know! )

Not guilty yer Honour.

Evil8Beezle:
The officer also stated to my TM (as he had to me) that he COULD impound the vehicle there and then until the pallet was properly marked up and paperwork in order, but said that as it was only a minor breach would amend my paperwork and let me be on my way, as I was now only heading back to the depot.

The officer was quite correct, if there was an offence.
I’m not saying there wasn’t an offence either, because there’s not currently enough info for me to offer an opinion.
For now, I can only say that it’s possible that there wasn’t.

Evil8Beezle:
Not sure what the moral of the story is, other than having ADR can get you more hours as well as more pay!
I just thought I’d post this to give other Newbies an insight of what can go wrong…
I’ll let DieselDave tell me what I did wrong!

As far as I can tell, you’ve done nothing wrong.

Radar19:
I used to collect fireworks for a small time firm, you could take up to 500 NEC before you needed an ADR ticket. Many a time I’ve looked at the paper to refuse it only for them to disapear off to the office with it only to come back with it magically under 500. I didn’t work for that outfit for very long. These days I only take limited quanties since no ADR for me.

That sounds spot-on so far and it’s always best to check, because the limits for some fireworks are a lot less than 500Kg NEQ.

muckles:
By the sounds of it you guy had just swallowed the book and wanted to find something to prove the point. I would get Diesel Dave to put his 10pence worth, he’s helped me a lot over the years. And if the pallet was wrong then your cmpany needs a quiet word with your supplier to explain their error.

If it’s who I think it is, he’s a qualified DGSA.

Several police forces have DGSAs.

There’s not quite enough info for me to know the answer to the question yet.

Evil8Beezle:
But i do wish I was a bit more knowledgeable, and at the time less tired so I could have investigated and checked his books to see if I was over the “limited quantities”. But I guess if I’m to do that, i may as well consider doing the DGSA exams…

There’s no need for you to be more knowledgeable, but it’s optional if you wish.

It’s fair to say that a DGSA needs far more knowledge than an ADR instructor, and that the written DGSA exams (no multi-choice) are notoriously difficult to pass.

Evil8Beezle:
I took a photocopy of the yellow form the officer gave me before I passed it on to my TM, but I can’t seem to find it now!
So I can’t even say what I was actually carrying at this moment… I’ll ask my TM again next week if i was over limited quantities, but I’m not holding my breath on finding out…

It’s quite possible that your TM doesn’t know, but I can tell you that as long as he’s asked the right questions of the sender, then he’s entitled to rely on the load info they’ve given to him.

wildfire:
I thought it was down to the sender to make sure that the pallets are correctly marked, and to ensure that what’s on them comply with the markings. It seems strange that they would risk sending something that wasn’t complaint with limited quantities, or am I being gullible.

No mate, you’re spot-on.

ADR is written in such a way that the sender can’t duck his rightful responsibilities.

Héraultais:
It is down to the supplier and their DGSA to ensure the load is packaged correctly and has the correct paperwork.

Exactly so ^^^^

Digit369:
sounds to me that adr is a load of extra greif. i think that for the risk you take for those badges is it worth it fo £3 ph extra.

You’re spot-on mate, because ADR can be lots of grief, but the way that the responsibilities are written is very favourable to an employed driver.

I’ve also thought that an ADR trained driver should be paid a bit more than the normal going rate, but a lot of bosses disagree.

JS8576:
Not spoken to you for a while Evil. Daft question but when you said had your plates down do you mean you took them off the vehicle. Just wondered if they have to be removed by law or whether you could just leave them on there even if only small quantities are being carried on vehicle.

I hope I get on as well as you seem to be when I finally get around to my cat c training and test.

My guess is that he meant that he’d folded the plates down to show the orange.

(A lot of the plates are foldable on a hinge.)

The only time that the orange plates must be removed by law is when there are NO dangerous goods left on a vehicle.
ADR allows the orange plates to be removed OR covered when not needed.

This saves the driver from having to calculate for a diminishing load on multi-drop work.

Evil8Beezle:

JS8576:
Not spoken to you for a while Evil. Daft question but when you said had your plates down do you mean you took them off the vehicle. Just wondered if they have to be removed by law or whether you could just leave them on there even if only small quantities are being carried on vehicle.

I hope I get on as well as you seem to be when I finally get around to my cat c training and test.

Hi pal,

The orange metal plates front and rear fold in half. So when closed they are hidden, and when open (down) you are carrying ADR goods.
Hope that clears that up, and unless you know, it’s not a daft question pal!

Ooops!!

I hadn’t seen this post when I answered the last one.

Also spot-on!! and NO WAY was it a daft question either.