Drivers

Why are we so mean to each other?

I think this forum is a prime example of it constantly posting pictures of drivers making mistakes then berating them. I know it’s not just on here because I’ve seen it while at work as well.

I’m genuinely curious BTW because I know with other professions they often back each other to a fault.

Ye it’s easy to mock someone who hit a bridge but maybe the guy has just passed his test has zero experience driving a truck and has a million things going through his head. E.g. for me I got thrown in at the deep end and I never once got told how to use a tacho card I even paid for
1 days of cpc which covered tacho training and it was 75% about paper disk and 25% about digital without ever actually using one just looking at printouts of it.

As a new driver Cpc should of benefited me the most yet all it did is confuse me and ye maybe I had a bad teacher but if I as a new driver find it useless and old timers find it useless what’s the point of it?

FYI my first class 1 job was delivering A-frame trailers to customers for loading and Collections they are a pig to reverse and unfortunately the guy that was meant to show me them didn’t know how to reverse them and refused to so he just showed me how to hook it up and wished me good luck. So off I went on the road never driven an a frame trailer before and no idea how to reverse them.
I got it all done in the end but I could of easily messed up and I expect a lot of people have similar experiences when they are new.

So long story short.
Cpc is crap and should be replaced by something effective.
It’s easy to blame a driver but it’s not always his fault because new drivers don’t always know better. Or are so out of their depth they just need a responsible employer to step in and train them I.e start putting more of the blame on the employer.

/Rant over
I wrote this on my phone so sorry for the poor structure.

As many as their are good lads about who would be willing to help and advise anyone, whether it be a new driver or not, their are also the same amount of snakes who would think nothing of watching someone balls up and glee in their own little warped sense of self arrogance.

Everyone has made mistakes at one time or another and if anyone says otherwise they are the kind who you know would stich you up in no time.

Agree entirely with both of the above posts, apart from other professions backing each other up, not the case in my experience anyway.

I remember all the people from my early days, but two in particular stand out. One was a loudmouthed bellend and one of the worst bullshitters I’ve ever met.

The other was a happy soul who would always buy me a coffee to go with his advice, I bumped into him the other day and was delighted to be able to get him a pint after all these years.

Always promised myself I’d never be like Mr Mouth and I hope I never have been, to this day the though of the prick irritates me even though it was over 20 years ago

I don’t think most drivers are like that… On the internet everyone is ‘passionate’ one way or the other about Brexit. A large group of women are radical feminists. And other extremes.

On here and on the internet I’d agree that you get more than your fair share of obnoxious loudmouths (and most will say hark at it). But that is just indicative of the internet in general. We must all know the shy retiring type who suddenly has a lot to say on facebook/twitter.

I think there is also an element of… Well, I can’t say this without being mildly offensive. People who drive trucks for a living and who then in their spare time come on the internet to talk about driving trucks either probably don’t have many friends (for a reason) or have so little between their ears they can’t think about anything other than trucks. I was really fascinated by this site when I was learning and first passed - it was a great resource. But relatively quickly the bit I’ve just said became apparent. Obviously, that doesn’t apply to everyone - but this place is not indicative of drivers in general, and neither is facebook.

In real life, a small majority of drivers are obnoxious bullies. But I’d say a higher number are friendly, intelligent and engaging people. I’m currently working for a supermarket - the drivers who would be ridiculed by the people I’ve described on here have gone out of their way to be friendly and offer their advice. I’m yet to do a shift where someone hasn’t offered to buy me a coffee and asked where I’m going and if I need any advice/help.

I think it’s a visible sign of the frustration a lot of drivers feel at the absence of control and power in their lives.
We all go on about how no body outside the industry knows enough about what we do, well here’s a news flash, no one outside the industry gives a flying ■■■■ about what we do, all they care about is that we do it.
We all have work problems no one will listen to, in fact from what I read and hear these days the problems are getting far worse with big companies exercising ever more ridiculous levels of control over drivers and how they do the job. Having to explain at a debrief a 3 minute stop enroute to have a pee is taking then pee.

The job is being dumbed down so much it’s no real surprise that the longer serving drivers feel this way, they started when the job was very different, they were treated as independant free thinking professionals and were thanked for the extra effort they’d put in to get the job done right and on time. Not now, that control by the driver has gone in the most part . The industry now wants a driver to know he’s firmly at the bottom of the pile with no control (just the responsibility of piloting a truck around safely) and if you could all act accordingly and just quietly accept your serf status then that would be awfully decent of you all.

Despite what many drivers will tell you, the reality is that the boss and customer control what we do. Many have a problem with that so come up with stories of how they told the boss / customer what was going to happen, sometimes these stories are so ridiculous they wouldn’t even make it onto jackanory.
As humans we all need to feel we have control over our lives including our work situation.
As truck drivers we don’t have a lot.

Look at the classic security guard owning the company scenario. He / she knows they’re at the bottom of the pile so exercise what little power and control they can. They can’t really do this to ‘normal’ customers at the site so they’ve learnt they can lord it over the delivering drivers instead to get their power needs satisfied.

We don’t have that clear cut group of people to exercise our almost non existent power over so we do what we can to feel better about our lack of control.
We bully other road users on the road as we are a far more important road user than anybody else.
We tell tales of how we told our company / customer what’s going to happen.
We attempt to exercise control or power over anybody not up at our own level of perfection, it’s a basic human trait, pick on the weak and in our case that’s anybody who makes even the most basic and understandable mistake right up to the most serious.

Many who are unhappy in their work life due to their lack of control will show a strong Schadenfreude effect, I personally know of a few people who take this to extremes. They will continue to badger someone deemed weaker than them until the person being attacked will walk off in disgust leaving the protagonist with a big smile on his face while proclaiming how he “told them alright”.

Of course if there is any shred of truth to anything I’ve said then it certainly doesn’t apply to all drivers or employers. But I think it does explain a lot of the behaviour you see on here and out there in the real world.

Tgtrucker:
I think it’s a visible sign of the frustration a lot of drivers feel at the absence of control and power in their lives.
We all go on about how no body outside the industry knows enough about what we do, well here’s a news flash, no one outside the industry gives a flying [zb] about what we do, all they care about is that we do it.
We all have work problems no one will listen to, in fact from what I read and hear these days the problems are getting far worse with big companies exercising ever more ridiculous levels of control over drivers and how they do the job. Having to explain at a debrief a 3 minute stop enroute to have a pee is taking then pee.

The job is being dumbed down so much it’s no real surprise that the longer serving drivers feel this way, they started when the job was very different, they were treated as independant free thinking professionals and were thanked for the extra effort they’d put in to get the job done right and on time. Not now, that control by the driver has gone in the most part . The industry now wants a driver to know he’s firmly at the bottom of the pile with no control (just the responsibility of piloting a truck around safely) and if you could all act accordingly and just quietly accept your serf status then that would be awfully decent of you all.

Despite what many drivers will tell you, the reality is that the boss and customer control what we do. Many have a problem with that so come up with stories of how they told the boss / customer what was going to happen, sometimes these stories are so ridiculous they wouldn’t even make it onto jackanory.
As humans we all need to feel we have control over our lives including our work situation.
As truck drivers we don’t have a lot.

Look at the classic security guard owning the company scenario. He / she knows they’re at the bottom of the pile so exercise what little power and control they can. They can’t really do this to ‘normal’ customers at the site so they’ve learnt they can lord it over the delivering drivers instead to get their power needs satisfied.

We don’t have that clear cut group of people to exercise our almost non existent power over so we do what we can to feel better about our lack of control.
We bully other road users on the road as we are a far more important road user than anybody else.
We tell tales of how we told our company / customer what’s going to happen.
We attempt to exercise control or power over anybody not up at our own level of perfection, it’s a basic human trait, pick on the weak and in our case that’s anybody who makes even the most basic and understandable mistake right up to the most serious.

Many who are unhappy in their work life due to their lack of control will show a strong Schadenfreude effect, I personally know of a few people who take this to extremes. They will continue to badger someone deemed weaker than them until the person being attacked will walk off in disgust leaving the protagonist with a big smile on his face while proclaiming how he “told them alright”.

Of course if there is any shred of truth to anything I’ve said then it certainly doesn’t apply to all drivers or employers. But I think it does explain a lot of the behaviour you see on here and out there in the real world.

That’s a great post, plenty of food for thought there!

Tgtrucker:
I think it’s a visible sign of the frustration a lot of drivers feel at the absence of control and power in their lives.
We all go on about how no body outside the industry knows enough about what we do, well here’s a news flash, no one outside the industry gives a flying [zb] about what we do, all they care about is that we do it.
We all have work problems no one will listen to, in fact from what I read and hear these days the problems are getting far worse with big companies exercising ever more ridiculous levels of control over drivers and how they do the job. Having to explain at a debrief a 3 minute stop enroute to have a pee is taking then pee.

The job is being dumbed down so much it’s no real surprise that the longer serving drivers feel this way, they started when the job was very different, they were treated as independant free thinking professionals and were thanked for the extra effort they’d put in to get the job done right and on time. Not now, that control by the driver has gone in the most part . The industry now wants a driver to know he’s firmly at the bottom of the pile with no control (just the responsibility of piloting a truck around safely) and if you could all act accordingly and just quietly accept your serf status then that would be awfully decent of you all.

Despite what many drivers will tell you, the reality is that the boss and customer control what we do. Many have a problem with that so come up with stories of how they told the boss / customer what was going to happen, sometimes these stories are so ridiculous they wouldn’t even make it onto jackanory.
As humans we all need to feel we have control over our lives including our work situation.
As truck drivers we don’t have a lot.

Look at the classic security guard owning the company scenario. He / she knows they’re at the bottom of the pile so exercise what little power and control they can. They can’t really do this to ‘normal’ customers at the site so they’ve learnt they can lord it over the delivering drivers instead to get their power needs satisfied.

We don’t have that clear cut group of people to exercise our almost non existent power over so we do what we can to feel better about our lack of control.
We bully other road users on the road as we are a far more important road user than anybody else.
We tell tales of how we told our company / customer what’s going to happen.
We attempt to exercise control or power over anybody not up at our own level of perfection, it’s a basic human trait, pick on the weak and in our case that’s anybody who makes even the most basic and understandable mistake right up to the most serious.

Many who are unhappy in their work life due to their lack of control will show a strong Schadenfreude effect, I personally know of a few people who take this to extremes. They will continue to badger someone deemed weaker than them until the person being attacked will walk off in disgust leaving the protagonist with a big smile on his face while proclaiming how he “told them alright”.

Of course if there is any shred of truth to anything I’ve said then it certainly doesn’t apply to all drivers or employers. But I think it does explain a lot of the behaviour you see on here and out there in the real world.

Well put post. Are you Juddian in disguise?. In my experience it’s not my fellow drivers that are the problem, it’s the customers. Or to be precise, when the office cabbages have promised (lied) to them that you’ll be there 6 hours earlier.

Anyone can be an irritating cretin on the internet but nothing wrong with naming-and-shaming bridge-strikers. No excuse. Load-measure-keep eyes open.

Forums aren’t real life.
In reality,I’ve never had a problem with anybody at work.
Made some great friends through this industry.
Some I still see…Some I don’t.

Some are on the other side

no offence intended but there is no excuse for bridge strikes whether you are a newbie,old hand,or you have a million things going through your head,it’s basic common sense and judgement,and if you do have a million things going through your head then you should not drive because concentrating on the road is more important,secondly you are right reference the CPC it is a waste of time,and No 3 is A frames,again you are right,they are a pig to reverse,done it in 1990 when a newbie with a little experience have not touched one since,terrible invention,fixed frame not a problem,but A frame absolutely not

I think there’s a a difference between a mistake and an error which simply should not happen.

A mistake being something like ripping your lines, even dropping a trailer on its nose, catching something with the back end of a trailer, misjudging a turning circle, Etc. All those kind of things are actually quite minor and very easy mistakes to make which only require a lapse in concentration which can happen to the best of us.

Hitting a bridge no matter how new or experienced you are isn’t a minor error. That’s a case of not looking where are going, missing all road signs leading up to it, missing the sign on the bridge itself, missing the clue that the bridge actually looks low, yet still carrying on, some not even slowing down at all. That’s not a little mistake that anyone can make.

So I think that’s why it gets picked on and posted about when it’s a bridge strike.

I can see the points about bridge strikes, and I agree that it shouldn’t happen.

I also have to question the motives behind posting them on the internet.

Is the poster doing it to help others, or just emulating the schoolboy who revelled in the schadenfreude of somebody tripping over and “laughing” in an exaggerated fashion?

We all knew one or more of those, and nobody except their sad-case, special-subjects hangers-on had any time for them.

Do you recognise yourself in either of these people?

adam277:
So long story short.
Cpc is crap and should be replaced by something effective.
It’s easy to blame a driver but it’s not always his fault because new drivers don’t always know better. Or are so out of their depth they just need a responsible employer to step in and train them I.e start putting more of the blame on the employer.

I agree. The basic principle of the CPC is sound, that there is enough complexity around haulage rules that every employer should every year set aside a day, or two afternoons on two sequential days (after a morning’s work has been done), to get guys together and have a conversation about things.

The idea, I imagine, is that the vast majority of firms would be large enough to employ a full-time staff for the purpose of delivering the training, and that the larger firms would use any slack capacity amongst their staff to provide the smaller firms (who can’t justify a full-time trainer) with an out-of-house training service. The employers would make all of the arrangements and meet all of the costs as part of their normal operations. Drivers just turn up for work every day as usual. The employers have a five-year window over which to carry out the full training, so there’s plenty of slack.

The problem is that the British haulage industry has been allowed to become so fragmented and casualised (if it wasn’t always so) that it hasn’t happened in an organised fashion like this.

Half the trainers in the industry are just chancers and carpetbaggers who have set up on their own and hired a classroom somewhere, or (if they are staff) they’re ex- or part-time drivers who have kissed enough ■■■ to get put on a course upped into a cushy training position (i.e. they’re cronies and bootlicks, not people especially suited to training others). There are exceptions of course.

And then on the drivers’ side, half of them are casuals, part-timers, or job-hoppers, who belong to nobody and nobody wants to take responsibility for providing training to. So they end up having to arrange it themselves, and because it’s money out of their pocket (as well as lost wages) and they’ve got to faff around putting aside time for it, they just end up finding the cheapest course by any old provider, and get the whole training done in one bloc to get it over with for another 5 years (usually at the last minute before they’d have to stop driving).

So what we have is instead of firms using the 7 hours a year to polish the skills and culture of their steady workforce and resolve any issues that have been identified during the previous 12 months (or identify new issues and then take action within the organisation to resolve them), you just have both employers and drivers all resenting the fact that they have to slam money on the table to some two-bit trainer, who may have no knowledge of the driver’s particular job or firm or working practices (and no clout with the managers, if there is a problem with the management), just so they can drive on for another 5 years.

It’s not really the CPC that needs to change. Is every other aspect of how the haulage industry currently works.

So much of the problems in our industry result, IMHO, from the training that new drivers receive before passing their test and being allowed out.

So much has gone wrong with our training industry, and in some ways they themselves have aided and abetted the poorer standards required and unfortunately passing, now this is not knocking the newer or younger drivers far from it, there were just as many knuckle heads back in the day but the dirt hard work and strength required to do the job in the past, together with the really quite difficult to master vehicles tended to sort the wheat from the chaff in short order.

Also there were other industrial jobs people could get which paid as well or better, not just working in warehouses piled sky high with chinese crap, so lorries weren’t the automatic alternative second/fourth career choices as they are now, generally lorry drivers were raised from short trousers to want to be lorry drivers, i know i was one of them, not as anyone encouraged me it was what i wanted to do.

Anyway, back to training new drivers.

Automatics have no place in the world of training, if someone can’t pass a lorry (with power steering) test unless they have an automatic they have no place on the road, the gearbox together with the steering is the prime method of controlling the vehicle on the road.
At the same time this bloody brakes to slow gears to go mantra should be made a hate crime, this is not how you control a lorry, lorry control is determined by the correct gear and throttle balance, utilising PRIMARILY any auxillary retarding systems the vehicle has fitted, ie exhaust brake.

You cannot teach someone to be a lorry driver in 3 or 5 days, it simply cannot be done, you are teaching them monkey fashion to pass a test.
The cost has to go up because the training has to be longer, probably twice as long, to include such things as bridge awareness tuition, and a decent day’s course on maneuvering and getting the hang of picking up and dropping fully loaded trailers.

There are many things that need tweaking IMO, but mainly if the trainer (fair play, another instructor must also try their best) comes to the conclusion that a trainee is not and never will be a lorry driver as long as they have a hole in their arse, then the training should stop immediately and the trainee sent for appraisal at an agreed independent trainer’s tribunal (to be fair to all this should be by shared cost by all similar to the MIB insurance system).

It is in no-ones best interest to train people to drive lorries like large cars and to pass steering wheel attendies by the score (oh look at my first time pass rate, train with me young man ) when lets be honest a bloody chimp could jump into a modern lorry and take it up the motorway, and yes there are too many chimps getting through because they keep smashing into bridges, ramming each other up the arse, and turning the whole shebang arse over head on a perfectly straight road.

The job and the lorries nowadays no longer sort the wheat, but the need for the chaff to be removed from the game is as urgent as it ever was, so some buggers had better get their heads together and come up with a modern method of threshing.

I had hoped the sad case of the runaway tipper in Bath might have highlighted this issue, with pertinent questions asked at the highest level and some action plan initiated, sadly it appears not to have made a scrap of difference…but not to worry eh, gongs and gold plated pensions guaranteed for the apparatchiks in charge.

Juddian, that should be a sticky. Posts like that make wading through the other crap worthwhile.

*Salutes Juddian

Why are we so mean to each other?

Hmmm, I am not so sure it has always been that way or is my memory playing tricks.I sat my Class one in the early 70’s and like most then has no experience of much at all.
However back in these days other drivers were very helpful and always gave plenty of good advice and as I loved to learn I sucked it all up.There was no CPC or crap like that
however I think it was down to each individual if he or she wanted to learn.The driving test as with the car test was easy but the problem being all along (in my book) that drivers pass it and think they know everything and that is one of the biggest problems on our roads.Drivers need to keep learning (the proper way) and be checked every so often and their mistakes etc pointed out to then otherwise they become complacent and over confident which usually ends up with an accident. Also back then there was far more courteous drivers around where as now nobody has any time for each other. Society has changed and definitely not for the better. There was also more traffic cops that would pull you in and give you a bollocking as long as it was not too serious.
The whole driving test and training is way out of date and badly needs to be changed then we may produce drivers that know how to drive correctly and can follow a few simple rules to keep others and themselves safe.

to include such things as bridge awareness tuition

Really, awe come on, 1000’s of us have driven millions of miles without hitting a bridge. Bridge awareness training would not make any difference.
Just look at other parts of driver training and ask yourself how much of that is taken in ?
It’s all about the type of individual rather that what he is taught or to put it another way. ATTITUDE.

jakethesnake:
to include such things as bridge awareness tuition

Really, awe come on, 1000’s of us have driven millions of miles without hitting a bridge. Bridge awareness training would not make any difference.
Just look at other parts of driver training and ask yourself how much of that is taken in ?
It’s all about the type of individual rather that what he is taught or to put it another way. ATTITUDE.

Very true. In the same way people become bus drivers or minicab drivers. They hold a vocational licence (buses) which they have no right to, in my opinion.

How many London bus drivers REALLY thought their vocation was driving a bus before they saw the advert on the back of one, I wonder.

I’m not even going to start on minicab “drivers” as I’d like to get to sleep some time tonight.

Juddian:
Automatics have no place in the world of training, if someone can’t pass a lorry (with power steering) test unless they have an automatic they have no place on the road, the gearbox together with the steering is the prime method of controlling the vehicle on the road.
At the same time this bloody brakes to slow gears to go mantra should be made a hate crime, this is not how you control a lorry, lorry control is determined by the correct gear and throttle balance, utilising PRIMARILY any auxillary retarding systems the vehicle has fitted, ie exhaust brake.

The bit in bold is ludicrous for two reasons:

1. Nearly all trucks are autos. So why train them on a completely different system than they will drive?

2. I’ve jumped into a manual with a splitter after passing in an auto - and if anything they are easier. You can control reversing a lot more with a clutch. I had no special training - I just looked at it and did it.

What you really mean (I think) is you want new drivers to pass on about the most complicated and difficult gearbox in production (which is probably not still in production) - so they have acquired a skill they will then never use, costing the trainee a large amount of money and making the test even less like real life than now.

I think some changes to testing would be good - I’m just not sure about the tests you suggest.

I also had no more problem with picking up a fully loaded trailer than I do an empty one. I go under it, I lift the suspension. It’s exactly the same.

jakethesnake:
to include such things as bridge awareness tuition

Really, awe come on, 1000’s of us have driven millions of miles without hitting a bridge. Bridge awareness training would not make any difference.
Just look at other parts of driver training and ask yourself how much of that is taken in ?
It’s all about the type of individual rather that what he is taught or to put it another way. ATTITUDE.

Fair points, but you are a 70’s pass like me we started out with very small cabs (only the all flash no cash mobs got high Scanny 110s and Volvo 88’s back then, Ford’s Transconti was a rarity, the chances are a flat trailer which you roped and sheeted, and the majority of loads then (unless packaging or similar) were no higher than the cab so around 11 ft at most, and when you’d spent an hour or more putting 2 or 4 or even 5 (including a fly) sheets and ropes over, you had a pretty good idea how high the thing was, and any bloody lorryist with an ounce of sense used a tape measure.

Eventually we moved on to curtain siders, but high van and curtain siders were incredibly rare, about the only drivers running semi permanently at 16ft back then would be car transporters.

The new drivers don’t get this hands on any more or have the luxury of a 11ft high when loaded flatbed artic to learn on, chances are they get a set of keys, a lorry they’ve never laid eyes on before, and a trailer number, and they’ll be hasselled out of the gate asap, little change of familiarisation, no spending an hour roping up the vehicle, being up on top like we were realising it was a bit bloody higher than we had thought, they might be straight out in the first week at 15’9", i’m not too sure how i’d have coped either to be honest.

Another point, invariably the flat roped load if high, eg three layers of paper reels, would be narrower than the bed, so arch bridges were an easier negotiations even if we missed them by accident as it were.

Also we used maps back then, so we plotted our own routes and learned them by heart, no relying on some little machine deciding our route for us and then sitting there vegetating just steering the bloody lorry whilst the electronics do everything else including directing us on a journey we didn’t even route ourselves.
I bet if the satnav packed up at any point in their journey half the sods wouldn’t have the foggiest idea which road they were on or where they were supposed to be going, that’s what happens when you take away the basics of the job.

By height training i don’t mean just instruction either, i mean various frames made out of reinforced cardboard or balsa type wood set out where they do the maneuvering, so they can go through a bridge too low at 40 mph and see what happens to the ‘bridge’ without the catastrophic results of a real bridge strike, or this could be electronic these days where breaking the beam would set off one hell of a siren and flashing lights in the cab scaring the trainee half to death, bit like a video game.

Yeah I totally understand what you are saying but I still am of the opinion it would not make much difference. I am fairly certain it is mentioned by any decent instructor and probably during some CPC. Still think it is down to each individual rather than the training but do agree training needs totally revamped.