roughyed:
there are notices around the MSA car parks, that say if you park or enter the services, you agree to the terms and conditions, and therefore agree to any fines you incure under their rules. Is this legal, or just the MSA’s chancing their arm and hope you’ll pay up without a fuss ?
Putting the signs up is legal, like “keep off the grass” You are not agreeing to anything that is enforceable in court or under contract.
The following is a letter sent to a “parking company” by a barrister - he paid nothing to them and they went away.
To:
Central Payment Office, Creative Parking Solutions, Suite 8, Bridge Chambers Business Centre, 1 Bridge Chambers, Barnstaple, Devon EX31 1HB. Â
Without prejudice, save as to costs
Re. Parking Charge Notice No. ****. Agricultural Inn, Braunton. Vehicle registration **** ***.
Dear Sir/Madam,
I was very surprised to receive a ‘Parking Charge Notice’ (no.****) today at The Agricultural Inn for my vehicle whose registration number is set out at the top of this letter. I dispute the charge for the reasons set out below. Please note that without prejudice to the fact that I dispute the whole basis of the claim, my main beef is with what I consider to be a disproportionate and punitive level of charge.
No contract
There was no contract between myself and either Creative Parking Solutions or The Agricultural Inn. I did not see the notices when I parked and at that time had no idea any charge whatsoever was required. So the requirements of forming a contract such as a meeting of minds, agreement, certainty of terms, etc were not satisfied. Had I known when I parked, I would have been happy to pay. For what it’s worth, I was helping my local church (St Brannocks) which was organising a Lent Lunch at the Methodist/URC Church next to the Aggi.
Trespass
If there was no contract, then at most I was guilty of a civil trespass (though this is neither admitted nor denied). If this was the case, I would be liable to damages. Given that I did no damage to the car park and furthermore that the car park was not full when I parked and I believe also when I left, I would suggest that there was therefore no loss at all.
Punitive/unfair/unreasonable
Without prejudice to the foregoing, even if there was a contract (which is denied):
a. Punitive
The charge that you are levying is punitive and therefore void (ie unenforceable) against me. The charge of £75 is arbitrary and in no way proportionate to any alleged breach of contract. Nor does it even equate to local council charges (which in any event are a completely different beast). This is all the more so for the additional charge of £45 which you say accrues after seven days of non-payment. This would also apply to your mention of any costs incurred through debt recovery unless it followed a court order.
b. Unfair
The charge you are levying is an unfair term (and therefore not binding) pursuant to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. In particular, Schedule 2 of those Regulations gives an indicative (and non-exhaustive) list of terms which may be regarded as unfair and includes at Schedule 2(1)(e) “Terms which have the object or effect of requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation.” Furthermore, Regulation 5(1) states that: “A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties’ rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer” and 5(2) states: “A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term.”
c. Unreasonable
The charge you are levying is an unreasonable indemnity clause pursuant to section 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 which provides that: "A person cannot by reference to any contract term be made to indemnify another person (whether a party to the contract or not) in respect of liability that may be incurred by the other for negligence or breach of contract, except in so far as the contract term satisfies the requirement of reasonableness.”
Further information
Please take this letter to constitute a written appeal in accordance with your Notice. I also make the following points. I would be grateful for answers to all questions raised and in this respect remind you of the obligations set out in the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct (justice.gov.uk/courts/proced … on_conduct).
Your cause of action: please make this clear. If you claim that I entered into a contract, please send me a complete breakdown of all the terms and conditions of that contract to which you say I agreed.
Your loss: please give me a full breakdown as to the actual loss you say was suffered by either yourselves or The Agricultural Inn.
The appeal: please send me a copy of the procedure which you follow, along with setting out what factors are taken into account, who is the judge or arbitrator and whether they are independent, whether you require oral submissions, whether it is governed by the Arbitration Act 1996 and any other relevant factors. In addition, please give me disclosure of any arguments being put by yourselves on this matter in the Appeal so that I might reply to any new issues which are raised. If you decide to dismiss the appeal, please send me the full reasoning in relation to each of the specific points raised in this letter.
Time for the appeal. Your parking charge notice says: ‘Appeals/challenges received after 7 (seven) days will not be upheld or considered unless in extreme circumkstances, and at the Company’s discretion.’ Please tell me how you say this complies with the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct (above)?
Your ‘Parking Charge Notice’: what do you say is the status of this document? Do you claim it is an invoice pursuant to a contract (in other words an invoice which would generally get declared to the Inland Revenue) or does it have some other status? If it is the latter, please clarify exactly what you say it is?
Your status. Your Parking Charge Notice simply mentions ‘Creative Parking Solutions’. Please tell me who exactly is making this charge? Are you a limited company? If so, why is this not indicated on either the Notice or your website (creativeparkingsolutions.co.uk) along with your company registration number? In this respect, I note that the Companies Act 2006 and the Business Names Act 1985 provides that every UK company should list on its website: its name, its company registration number, its place of registration and its registered office address. If you are not a company, then I assume this is run by an individual or individuals and I would appreciate knowing exactly who is making the claim and in what capacity. Are you VAT registered? For what it’s worth, a female member of staff in The Aggi told me to call ‘Frank’. A couple of articles in the North Devon Journal quote ‘Francis Millard’ and ‘Frank Millard’ for Creative Parking Solutions. Is this or are these the person/people running Creative Parking Solutions?
The Agricultural Inn. A female member of staff in The Agricultural Inn suggested that running the car park had nothing to do with them. Please can you tell me who owns the car park and what is the relationship between The Agricultural Inn and yourselves? Please explain any involvement at all of The Agricultural Inn with yourselves as well as specifically with the Parking Charge Notices. I am also sending them a copy of this letter.
What is the relationship between ‘Creative Parking Solutions’ and Creative Parking Solutions PLC (www.creativecarpark.co.uk)? I am sending a copy of this letter to Gary Wayne who it seems is the CEO of Creative Parking Solutions PLC.  [UPDATE: Gary Wayne has confirmed that the claim is not made by Creative Parking PLC and that the relevant Creative Parking Solutions is at www.creativeparkingsolutions.co.uk]
Your Notice mentions that ‘A photograph may have been taken of the vehicle for evidential value and will be stored in accordance with the Company’s Data Protection procedures’. Please send me a copy of those procedures. Furthermore, pursuant to section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 please send me a copy of any such photo along with a copy of any other data which you hold relating to me.
Please send me details of any Codes by which you claim to comply and any governing body or other such organisation of which you are a member.
Please provide me with the name and address of your solicitors (if any) in order that I may copy them into this correspondence.
For the avoidance of doubt (and without suggesting that you would), please do not do the following:
a. Send me any document purporting to be from the County Court unless it is a valid Claim Form duly issued.
b. Write to me threatening to send round bailiffs without first going through the process of issuing a Claim Form and obtaining judgment.
c. Send me any standard letters either from yourselves or debt-collectors without addressing the specific points raised in this response.
d. I note that your website says: ‘Unlike some of our competitors, we maximise the deterrent value of parking charge notices by ensuring that all notices issued are pursued if necessary to the issue of a court summons.’ Please can you confirm that this is accurate and tell me how many claims you have pursued to a court hearing? Are there any Notices you have issued which have not been enforced? I note in this respect that a female member of staff in The Agricultural Inn  told me yesterday that she had had a problem (albeit over a different issue apparently) with one of your parking tickets only the day before and I was given the impression that the Notice was not going to be enforced in that case.
If you want to make a claim , for your information you can issue online or I am sure that Barnstaple County Court would also be very happy to give you a form. My address for service is set out at the top of this letter. If you do decide to issue:
a. I reserve the right to add further arguments to my Defence.
b. Please rest assured that I will be more than happy to attend any court mediations which might be offered.
I very much look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully
I would add to the above that the barrister in question has indicaed on his blog that the lettere is free to be used and copied by anyone who so wishes - you will need to edit a couple of parts to suit your own particular circumstances. Should cause a bit of fun especially the bit about not seeing signs, it would appear from this that the signs arent woth the scrap value of the metal theyre posted on.
billybigrig:
What it seems to say is that if the “parking control company” in other words the agent of the landowner, or the person who is renting/leasing the land decides to issue a “fine” or “penalty” for trespass they cannot do so if they dont intend to pass that fine to the landowner.
So I imagine provided they pass the fine to the MSA operator they will be legal to fine the [zb] out of you legally. Plus of course their own exorbitant admin fees and fine recovery costs etc etc
I’d say things will now legally be worse TBH
The Government own about 20 MSA sites and lease them out, i’d say it makes things more interesting !! 
OnlyAlan:
roughyed:
there are notices around the MSA car parks, that say if you park or enter the services, you agree to the terms and conditions, and therefore agree to any fines you incure under their rules. Is this legal, or just the MSA’s chancing their arm and hope you’ll pay up without a fuss ?Putting the signs up is legal, like “keep off the grass” You are not agreeing to anything that is enforceable in court or under contract.
I compare the signs to one of our Motorsport is Dangerous signs.
It is a legal requirement, but the lower text on the sign is meaningless. If you get injured or killed you are still insured, or you are if it is a properly permitted organised event like the ACU or FIM because the organisers have to be insured.
It is like a haulage company cab notice saying “passengers are not insured,” they are, under compulsory third party insurance.
The Barristers letter is brilliant 
Some more info from your British TV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAIcdi9niHA
And have a look at the money saving expert web site by martin someone or other - search cp plus its quite funny!
Mike-C:
billybigrig:
What it seems to say is that if the “parking control company” in other words the agent of the landowner, or the person who is renting/leasing the land decides to issue a “fine” or “penalty” for trespass they cannot do so if they dont intend to pass that fine to the landowner.
So I imagine provided they pass the fine to the MSA operator they will be legal to fine the [zb] out of you legally. Plus of course their own exorbitant admin fees and fine recovery costs etc etc
I’d say things will now legally be worse TBH
The Government own about 20 MSA sites and lease them out, i’d say it makes things more interesting !!
If the owner, in this case the government wish to pursue a claim then they can, however they must PROVE who was driving the vehicle - an entry photo is NOT proof enough. A parking company such as cp+ however CANNOT pursue you as the land is not theirs and by virtue of that you cannot have caused them damage or loss. Likewise they have to PROVE that you entered into a contract with them in order to claim that you broke any such contract - something which they would find extremely difficult to prove, especially given what is in the barristers letter above.
OnlyAlan:
roughyed:
there are notices around the MSA car parks, that say if you park or enter the services, you agree to the terms and conditions, and therefore agree to any fines you incure under their rules. Is this legal, or just the MSA’s chancing their arm and hope you’ll pay up without a fuss ?Putting the signs up is legal, like “keep off the grass” You are not agreeing to anything that is enforceable in court or under contract.
This is a fantastic letter to give to the company issuing a false FPN, but you really don’t need to respond to anything they send you as they will not pursue it beyond the b/s stage, if you do want to use this letter (brilliant as it is) there are a few spelling and grammar mistakes to get rid of.
Yup, you can refuse to pay a civil-issued fine. There is nothing in law that can be done against you beyond their own powers to put your vehicle “outside of your use”.
There IS however plenty OUTSIDE the law that can be done against you - should you find yourself still on or later returning to the issuer’s property.
(1) They can clamp you. The police won’t get involved in taking the clamp off, so you have the choice of either paying the huge fine and extras added on, or taking it up with the clamper. 
(2) The clamper will of course not be present 99 times out of 100, as they are scared children afraid of confrontations, and lie in wait in the bushes until the vehicle is absolutely left alone before proceeding. Once the clamp is on, they scarper fast, your vehicle always strangely being the ONLY one being clamped in the area… (Clamping a whole series of vehicles leaves them open to being approached by disgruntled drivers, thus they do a one-off and leave the scene!) 
(3) You can approach the MSA management, and they’ll just refer you to someone who’s not present. They’ll no doubt take your money if you offer to pay the “fine” though. Most people don’t make this mistake, when it becomes apparent that paying the fine doesn’t actually get the clamp removed - because the clamper isn’t present! You’ll find this out first, then refuse to part with any cash until you have someone present to rip the head off of, and crap down the hole. 
(4) since (2) is no different from someone actually breaking into, and stealing valuables from your vehicle, in law there is no difference to the response. The police will never go any further than give you a crime number. Possession is 9/10ths of the law, and your vehicle being clamped, and the person with the ability to remove it not being present, you are up crap creek without a paddle.
(5) If you are able to leave the scene, and a fine comes in the post, then you can choose not to pay it, but must consider yourself “banned from site” in that you’ll be clamped for sure at ANY MSA around the country should your vehicle be recognised by the auto-recognition system. Breaks every law in the book, but our lawmasters and enforcers are owned by the crooks, so you won’t get anywhere on the “public power” front unfortunately. 
(6) Invite the clamping firm to attend your property to receive your cash payment as you have no bank account, and then clamp them with the arbitary fine of £1000 cash per day or part thereof. They’ll send someone around with bolt cutters or whatever to remove it, and you then can involve the police for breaking and entering AND going equipped for burlary!
Of course they’ll never agree to come around your place in the first instance, but this knowledge also extends to the interesting fact that debt collectors won’t bother comeing around either!
(Periodic dirty letters, threats of bankruptcy or further court action, or even a letter that LOOKS like it’s from the court - but no actual person in a suit turning up on your doorstep, as has been the way for debt firms for nearly 10 years now!)
I would be interested to hear from anyone who’s successfully bolt-cut a clamp off, and the aftermath… I would imagine that the brudders have already been doing this for years, and they don’t have a great reputation for paying their fines do they?
People sitting in their vehicles don’t get clamped. so Don’t leave your vehicle unattended at MSA’s therefore HAS to be the moral to this story in conclusion then!
Winseer:
People sitting in their vehicles don’t get clamped. so Don’t leave your vehicle unattended at MSA’s therefore HAS to be the moral to this story in conclusion then!
This might answer the recent question of why drivers don;t walk to the toilets and just ■■■■ on the wheel !
Why can’t they ■■■■ in the caravan park instead? 
heres my tale,
got clamped one night while parked on the retail park off junction 9 M6. next morning rang the company in preston who charged me £155 to have it removed, 30 minutes later lad turns up and realises he doesnt have keys and he had left them at his house in lichfield, he promises to get it removed asap by going to B&Q and buying bolt crops, hour and a half later still no sign and head office on phone kept on fobbing me off (i rang every 10 minutes).
best bit now…2 other clampers working for the same company turn up and ask whats going on, when i explained they told me to ring up head office again in half an hour and tell them them as they have kept me here for 2 hours after i had paid the fine i am getting the police involved, its against the law for them to hold you more than 2 hours!, i rang them and was refunded my fine there and then, now best bit 30 minutes later other chap turns up and unlocks clamp while complaining he is going to lose his job tough ■■■■ fella, and thanks to the two other clampers for that little piece of information 
Is there such a law as “False Imprisonment of a Motor Vehicle” then?
Working for a clamping firm is likely to be some kind of “commission only” thing I would have thought.
I can’t see anyone being paid basic+commission for something where an overzealous jobsworth could actually have a dream career coining it in on piece-rate! 
What I don’t understand is why you pay in the first place. As far as I’m aware the UK is the only country in Europe that charges for motorway parking. These concessions make fortunes by selling overpriced goods and are required by contract, in other countries, to provide free parking. Whats different in the UK?
antricfer:
What I don’t understand is why you pay in the first place. As far as I’m aware the UK is the only country in Europe that charges for motorway parking. These concessions make fortunes by selling overpriced goods and are required by contract, in other countries, to provide free parking. Whats different in the UK?
Not wishing to put a downer on any good news this thread may have brought to light, but parking is free on MSA in Britain and abroad, they only charge you after two or three hours.
Several places in Europe do charge a fee, but it is refundable if you buy a meal or something from the shops or bar
antricfer:
What I don’t understand is why you pay in the first place. As far as I’m aware the UK is the only country in Europe that charges for motorway parking. These concessions make fortunes by selling overpriced goods and are required by contract, in other countries, to provide free parking. Whats different in the UK?
They have to charge, it is a condition of their licence. When motorways were new, there was a fear that service areas would become “destinations in their own right”, since they were so glamorous compared to the average home.
Watford Gap services was, in the 1960s, legendary for the rock 'n roll bands who would meet there on a Friday evening. Led Zeppelin, The Who. the Small Faces, the Animals etc etc etc.
It used to be the case that parking in mainland Europe was free but most truck stops in Germany have charged for parking for over 15 years now.