Wtd rule clampdown, fact or bs

[albion]

Captain Caveman 76:

albion:
I think it’s all overly complicated, both the driving rules and the WTD rules that run alongside and have to be incorporated.

I can end up with a time sheet with over 80 hours a week on it, but actual work and driving add up to <25 hours.

We had one of ours pulled by DVSA, had a manual record of his in and out of scope driving hours, DVSA refused to accept it and he got clamped and a fine. Checked with RHA and they duly double checked with transport solicitors and we were in the right.

DVSA can’t even get it right

Every now and then I’ll spend a week in the office to cover holidays. My card doesn’t go anywhere near a lorry in this time. However, I have to account for this working time. Rather than doing a manual entry using the trucks head unit, I use the manual entry feature in the tachomaster software. Bingo, all my working time is now on my card and no bits of paper with my hours on getting lost.

That’s an option if you occasionally are not in scope. We have some drivers that might do only one day a fortnight in a tacho vehicle and doing a manual entry all the time is not going to happen!

The sheets we use are very comprehensive, very easy to see ferry times, double manning etc and they are legal. We’ve had plenty of pulls where the sheets were accepted, just one pain in the arris that day.

[simcor]

Captain Caveman 76:

albion:
I think it’s all overly complicated, both the driving rules and the WTD rules that run alongside and have to be incorporated.

I can end up with a time sheet with over 80 hours a week on it, but actual work and driving add up to <25 hours.

We had one of ours pulled by DVSA, had a manual record of his in and out of scope driving hours, DVSA refused to accept it and he got clamped and a fine. Checked with RHA and they duly double checked with transport solicitors and we were in the right.

DVSA can’t even get it right

Every now and then I’ll spend a week in the office to cover holidays. My card doesn’t go anywhere near a lorry in this time. However, I have to account for this working time. Rather than doing a manual entry using the trucks head unit, I use the manual entry feature in the tachomaster software. Bingo, all my working time is now on my card and no bits of paper with my hours on getting lost.

Manual entries in tachomaster are stored on the tachomaster servers. It does not upload any data to your tacho card. Nothing can be altered on your card only the downloaded information.

The correct way to record it on your card would be with ? Unknown time and then you need a record of some description.

[roymondo]

robroy:

truckyboy:
…but did say that HGV drivers are restricted to only working for 56 hours a week…strange that when the average worked is between 60 - 80…let alone sticking to the 48 average.

That’s my point about all this crap.
A complete cluster [zb] of drivers hours rules, running along side, and combined with, yet another set of rules that are not entirely genuine, but only there to display a good but false impression of the job, with drivers jumping through hoops trying to comply with it all.
Brilliant eh? You couldn’t make it up.

Why not just simplify the whole [zb] shambles.

The whole point of the WTD was to protect the workers’ entitlement to adequate rest etc. It really isn’t about making drivers jump through hoops to comply with it, it’s about getting employers to toe the line. That’s probably the main reason DVSA are not interested in penalising drivers for WTD infringements.

[roymondo]

simcor:

Captain Caveman 76:

albion:
I think it’s all overly complicated, both the driving rules and the WTD rules that run alongside and have to be incorporated.

I can end up with a time sheet with over 80 hours a week on it, but actual work and driving add up to <25 hours.

We had one of ours pulled by DVSA, had a manual record of his in and out of scope driving hours, DVSA refused to accept it and he got clamped and a fine. Checked with RHA and they duly double checked with transport solicitors and we were in the right.

DVSA can’t even get it right

Every now and then I’ll spend a week in the office to cover holidays. My card doesn’t go anywhere near a lorry in this time. However, I have to account for this working time. Rather than doing a manual entry using the trucks head unit, I use the manual entry feature in the tachomaster software. Bingo, all my working time is now on my card and no bits of paper with my hours on getting lost.

Manual entries in tachomaster are stored on the tachomaster servers. It does not upload any data to your tacho card. Nothing can be altered on your card only the downloaded information.

The correct way to record it on your card would be with ? Unknown time and then you need a record of some description.

Spot on - and it is completely wrong to say that “all working time is now on the card”, because it simply is not. If checked at the roadside, the only times on the card will be those which were recorded due to it being in a vehicle head unit (either recorded automatically by the tachograph itself, or manually input while the card was in the HU).

[conor]

Captain Caveman 76:
Every now and then I’ll spend a week in the office to cover holidays.

The daft part of that is hours spent working in the office like that don’t count towards the 48hr average for the WTD (Mobile Workers). Just another asinine aspect of this stupid legislation.

[robroy]

Roymondo:

robroy:

truckyboy:
…but did say that HGV drivers are restricted to only working for 56 hours a week…strange that when the average worked is between 60 - 80…let alone sticking to the 48 average.

That’s my point about all this crap.
A complete cluster [zb] of drivers hours rules, running along side, and combined with, yet another set of rules that are not entirely genuine, but only there to display a good but false impression of the job, with drivers jumping through hoops trying to comply with it all.
Brilliant eh? You couldn’t make it up.

Why not just simplify the whole [zb] shambles.

The whole point of the WTD was to protect the workers’ entitlement to adequate rest etc. It really isn’t about making drivers jump through hoops to comply with it, it’s about getting employers to toe the line. That’s probably the main reason DVSA are not interested in penalising drivers for WTD infringements.

Ok fair enough, but until our hours actually are genuinely cut down from a permitted ridiculous and legal 70+ per week, to a sensible level (around that 48ish mark) I’ll continue just not to take it seriously and treat it with the contempt it deserves.

[simcor]

Regards your original question Rob.

Spoke to our compliance clerk this morning about this.

She was on a course last year about compliance and yes it seem you are correct in that DVSA are looking to start enforcing WTD infringements. She said maybe this year or next but she didn’t seem too sure when the clampdown was happening.

She also explained that DHL and Stobrats at the least presumably other large companies are included. Have agreed an arrangement with DVSA that their vehicles will not be stopped at all for random vehicle checks and driver compliance at the road side.

This makes some sense as OCRS (Operator compliance risk score) green light companies who are likely to be compliant (as much as is humanly possible of course) are generally not targets for random road side checks. But as part of this agreement they will allow access to DVSA to all of the compliance documents and all compliance checks will be done on site.

So in essence it seem DVSA will start doing site compliance checks for a lot of bigger name companies. And sounds they will be looking for non compliance and likely issuing fines from the evidence found in the company documents and tacho analysis software and infringement letters.

Based on the fact we know they can now fine for the last 28 days that isn’t great news.

I’m not saying this is all gospel as there will be the naysayers but with events of late and changes by DVSA about weekly rests in cabs etc, it really does look like they are starting to take a lot of stuff much more seriously than before.

I also think that things like defect reporting on an app on a phone that relays that information as alluded to on another post, will also be uploaded and available for DVSA to have access to immediately things could be looking pretty grim for a lot of people in the industry.

I know I have a few WTD infringements here and there usually for a few minutes over the 6 hour rule and also a cocked up manual entry which gave me a number of infringements. But other than that I am pretty compliant with the regs and WTD 99% of the time.

I’d like to think that they will still use common sense and where’d it is evident that people make human error mistakes as long as they are not regular occurrences fines won’t likely be issued. However where they see patterns or repeated infringements fine will be highly likely.

That’s my thoughts on it based on the information I have at hand at the moment.

[simcor]

gov.uk/government/news/driv … al-drivers

Well worth a read regarding some of the recent changes at DVSA and enforcement.

[simcor]

Conor:

Captain Caveman 76:
Every now and then I’ll spend a week in the office to cover holidays.

The daft part of that is hours spent working in the office like that don’t count towards the 48hr average for the WTD (Mobile Workers). Just another asinine aspect of this stupid legislation.

Not true gov.uk/government/publicati … le-workers any work for the business and annual leave/maternity or paternity count towards the WTD directive.

In general any business related to the transport business counts towards WTD and records should be kept for any other work not recorded by a tachograph in essence.

[yourhavingalarf]

simcor:
She was on a course last year about compliance and yes it seem you are correct in that DVSA are looking to start enforcing WTD infringements. She said maybe this year or next but she didn’t seem too sure when the clampdown was happening.

I don’t doubt…

What you say is true but, that’s a bit like ‘Mrs Scoggins say’s that when she was in the hairdressers, she heard Mrs Miggins say that she’d heard that Mr’s Barnabedians daughter say that it wasn’t true that Mr Davidsons cat crapped on number 14’s lawn’.

Transport; don’t believe anything until your either driving it or it’s been paid into your bank account.

[simcor]

truckyboy:
Everyones confused even vosa…watched a program today about the A1…anyway they pulled in a spanish truck and found the driver had worked for 7 days…so duly clamped him for a 45…but did say that HGV drivers are restricted to only working for 56 hours a week…strange that when the average worked is between 60 - 80…let alone sticking to the 48 average.

Anyone with a basic grasp of drivers and WTD directive rules should know the 56 and 90 hour rules are driving limits in a week and fortnight. Max of 56 hours in a week and max of 90 hours driving in a fortnight.

2 X 10 hour drives plus 4 X 9 hour drives equals a grand total of 56 hours driving time.

If you do 56 hours driving one week then the following week you only have 34 hours driving time available.

Each overlapping fortnight period must not be more than 90 hours driving. So an example would be week one 34 hours driving week two 56 hours driving week three 34 hours driving.

Week one and two equal 90 hours maximum week two and three also equal 90 hours maximum.

[simcor]

yourhavingalarf:

simcor:
She was on a course last year about compliance and yes it seem you are correct in that DVSA are looking to start enforcing WTD infringements. She said maybe this year or next but she didn’t seem too sure when the clampdown was happening.

I don’t doubt…

What you say is true but, that’s a bit like ‘Mrs Scoggins say’s that when she was in the hairdressers, she heard Mrs Miggins say that she’d heard that Mr’s Barnabedians daughter say that it wasn’t true that Mr Davidsons cat crapped on number 14’s lawn’.

Transport; don’t believe anything until your either driving it or it’s been paid into your bank account.

Not quite the same, her job is to monitor compliance, the course was for compliance.

The info would likely have come from DVSA and legislation documents and amendments which are usually easy to find as I’ve posted above and other bodies like RHA etc who should know what they are talking about.

The simple answer for everyone is to err on the side of caution and cover yourself, take extra breaks and keep working time and driving limits in check and defects and it’s unlikely you will ever have a problem.

[conor]

simcor:
Not true gov.uk/government/publicati … le-workers any work for the business and annual leave/maternity or paternity count towards the WTD directive.

In general any business related to the transport business counts towards WTD and records should be kept for any other work not recorded by a tachograph in essence.

We aren’t covered by the Working Time Directive as lorry drivers when driving a lorry, we’re covered by the Road Transport Directive. Hours done covered by the Working Time Directive don’t count under the Road Transport Directive.

[tachograph]

simcor:
Based on the fact we know they can now fine for the last 28 days that isn’t great news.

My understanding is that they havn’t yet started issuing road side fines for historic offences, the DVSA have said that when they decide on a date it will be well publicised.

[simcor]

tachograph:

simcor:
Based on the fact we know they can now fine for the last 28 days that isn’t great news.

My understanding is that they havn’t yet started issuing road side fines for historic offences, the DVSA have said that when they decide on a date it will be well publicised.

Good point. Yes not worded correctly. It does say it will be well publicised when it happens.