Franglais:
Thats why the proposed convoying system looks like a non-starter. Steering, and doing nowt else, whilst staring at a trucks rear doors is a recipe for disaster.
Looking at recent Mercedes tests, it seems that the following drivers now have a monitor which show what is happening in front of the lead truck.
Brilliant, so what exactly is the point of platooning other than it’s given some otherwise unemployed technical bods several years of playing tatas in big wagons and being handsomely paid for doing bugger all of any use…a regular state of affairs well known to the global warming/climate change legion of con artists, politicians, apparatchiks and more managers than you could shake a stick at
If they’re going to be sitting bolt upright in a state of alertness a car’s length from the vehicle in front, having to judge through a monitor the situation in front in case they have to take over, they might as well be driving.
Talking of taking over, it’s sounding more and more like the bloody lunatics have taken over the asylum with this automation ■■■■■■■■.
Franglais:
If you want to be a good safe driver, you need to be alert. You need to be involved in the driving, not be a semi-detached observer.
Does taking duties away from the driver make for a more relaxed driver, or for a less involved, and therefore less safe driver?
I think alertness is as much down to driver personality as it is to do with gadgets, I remember watching early Police Camera Actions from the 90’s where people crashed cars because they were distracted by things inside or outside the car and that was before mobile phones, complex entertainment systems and automation.
Driving has become such an everyday activity that most people aren’t really interested in that as soon as they have something else to occupy their mind they switch off the driving and focus on that.
I do think there is a problem with complexity of the systems for the average driver who isn’t really interested, hence this crash, the person has bought a complex piece of kit, but failed to understand the system, now this probably isn’t such a problem with a home entertainment system or even and in car entertainment system, but when it involves driving systems then maybe training is in order, but taking an exam to be able to buy a particular model of car might not help sales. But it might be important as the technology ramps up, Audi are saying that the new A8 is the first level 3 car, which means the driver doesn’t have to monitor it during driving, but this system only works under 60km/h and on road where opposing traffic is separated.
Franglais:
Thats why the proposed convoying system looks like a non-starter. Steering, and doing nowt else, whilst staring at a trucks rear doors is a recipe for disaster.
Looking at recent Mercedes tests, it seems that the following drivers now have a monitor which show what is happening in front of the lead truck.
Need an extra bit of training to drive a new car? Reckon the sales team will welcome that with open arms, or not?
I agree its beneficial, of course, and premium brands can make a fuss especially with the initial purchaser. But when the car is secondhand, or the owners dearly beloved kid needs to borrow it…no extra instruction likely then. Look at trucks being described as “just like a car to drive”, we`re (unfortunately) going the opposite direction it seems.
Would that “involve” the driver sufficiently I wonder?
I can see that what is happening in front of the lead vehicle is of relevance to following vehicles, but since the following driver would have little influence in the speed etc of the lead truck how long until they stopped looking at that screen, and started checking their phone?
Franglais:
If you want to be a good safe driver, you need to be alert. You need to be involved in the driving, not be a semi-detached observer.
Does taking duties away from the driver make for a more relaxed driver, or for a less involved, and therefore less safe driver?
I think alertness is as much down to driver personality as it is to do with gadgets, I remember watching early Police Camera Actions from the 90’s where people crashed cars because they were distracted by things inside or outside the car and that was before mobile phones, complex entertainment systems and automation.
Driving has become such an everyday activity that most people aren’t really interested in that as soon as they have something else to occupy their mind they switch off the driving and focus on that.
I do think there is a problem with complexity of the systems for the average driver who isn’t really interested, hence this crash, the person has bought a complex piece of kit, but failed to understand the system, now this probably isn’t such a problem with a home entertainment system or even and in car entertainment system, but when it involves driving systems then maybe training is in order, but taking an exam to be able to buy a particular model of car might not help sales. But it might be important as the technology ramps up, Audi are saying that the new A8 is the first level 3 car, which means the driver doesn’t have to monitor it during driving, but this system only works under 60km/h and on road where opposing traffic is separated.
Franglais:
Thats why the proposed convoying system looks like a non-starter. Steering, and doing nowt else, whilst staring at a trucks rear doors is a recipe for disaster.
Looking at recent Mercedes tests, it seems that the following drivers now have a monitor which show what is happening in front of the lead truck.
Need an extra bit of training to drive a new car? Reckon the sales team will welcome that with open arms, or not?
I agree its beneficial, of course, and premium brands can make a fuss especially with the initial purchaser. But when the car is secondhand, or the owners dearly beloved kid needs to borrow it…no extra instruction likely then. Look at trucks being described as “just like a car to drive”, we`re (unfortunately) going the opposite direction it seems.
Would that “involve” the driver sufficiently I wonder?
I can see that what is happening in front of the lead vehicle is of relevance to following vehicles, but since the following driver would have little influence in the speed etc of the lead truck how long until they stopped looking at that screen, and started checking their phone?
I did say that I didn’t think dealers would be up for training drivers, but really there seems to be a lack of knowledge about new systems with many drivers, just look at how many run around at night with running lights but no rear lights.
I would argue that training should be given on new trucks as well, a mate of mine had a new Merc on demo and was complaining about this and that on it, all things that if somebody had actually showed him round and explained the switches and their functions he wouldn’t have had so many of the complaints about it.
When a race team I was with got a new FH with Ishift, after we’d got it, (the first auto truck for all of us there) a trainer came from the local dealer and showed us loads of features of the truck we didn’t know about, even though we’d driven it, made driving it far better, got far more out of it than spending weeks of accidentally finding out what things did.
As for the monitor on the platooning trucks, as far as I know it’s not there for the driver to keep monitoring to react to what’s going on, audible and message warnings still appear on the dashboard, but I can only assume they’ve found in testing drivers aren’t comfortable following the other trucks so closely and not having any idea of what going on ahead, (obviously not been using some of the Box Jockeys you see on the A14 for testing.)
Read that post from muckles that mentioned a monitor in rear vehicles can view image of the lead.
But more than that, can these platooning trucks be daisy chained? So each vehicle can access hazard data from the lead vehicle live? As in the first one spots a hazard and each one sees the same data feed simultaneously and applies their own brakes, rather than a message being sent along the line like a wave effect with a compounding delay in braking the further along you go?
You’d think they’d need a gap between each vehicle long enough to allow driver to wake up, yawn, work out which country he’s in and apply brakes if it all goes a bit wrong?
Freight Dog:
Read that post from muckles that mentioned a monitor in rear vehicles can view image of the lead.
But more than that, can these platooning trucks be daisy chained? So each vehicle can access hazard data from the lead vehicle live? As in the first one spots a hazard and each one sees the same data feed simultaneously and applies their own brakes, rather than a message being sent along the line like a wave effect with a compounding delay in braking the further along you go?
You’d think they’d need a gap between each vehicle long enough to allow driver to wake up, yawn, work out which country he’s in and apply brakes if it all goes a bit wrong?
My understaing of the system is it’s not some ACC system where each truck is responding to the truck in front, but a system where the lead truck communicates directly with the following trucks.
I have doubts about drivers having enough time to respond to something if their attention has been allowed to wander becasue they are in a following truck or even in a lead or solo truck with level 2 or level 3 Automation.
Freight Dog:
Read that post from muckles that mentioned a monitor in rear vehicles can view image of the lead.
But more than that, can these platooning trucks be daisy chained? So each vehicle can access hazard data from the lead vehicle live? As in the first one spots a hazard and each one sees the same data feed simultaneously and applies their own brakes, rather than a message being sent along the line like a wave effect with a compounding delay in braking the further along you go?
You’d think they’d need a gap between each vehicle long enough to allow driver to wake up, yawn, work out which country he’s in and apply brakes if it all goes a bit wrong?
My understaing of the system is it’s not some ACC system where each truck is responding to the truck in front, but a system where the lead truck communicates directly with the following trucks.
I have doubts about drivers having enough time to respond to something if their attention has been allowed to wander becasue they are in a following truck or even in a lead or solo truck with level 2 or level 3 Automation.
I have my own doubts too l Startle effect, comprehension and mental model building are very deep subjects in my field. And experiencing first hand what it’s like, I know the potential death trap they’re pushing themselves into. Aviation went so deep down the rabbit hole, it’s had to dig itself back out.
If you’re engineering out practical and safe ways to marry what’s happening with humans you need a system with 100 percent infallibility or a very large set of lawyers
The screens and dashboards in the cars are just as bright at night, so what’s that doing to their night time vision if their eyes are unable to get used to the dark to be able to see then?
You’ve been able to adjust the brightness of dash lights for as long as there have been dash lights!
If only they knew there was a setting for them…
When I see a car coming up from behind, I sometimes wonder if they’re skyping / video calling - or whatever it’s called, due to the light in the cabin…
Freight Dog:
I have my own doubts too l Startle effect, comprehension and mental model building are very deep subjects in my field. And experiencing first hand what it’s like, I know the potential death trap they’re pushing themselves into. Aviation went so deep down the rabbit hole, it’s had to dig itself back out.
If you’re engineering out practical and safe ways to marry what’s happening with humans you need a system with 100 percent infallibility or a very large set of lawyers
I’ve read about aviation problems with pilots becoming systems reliant and forgetting the basics of flying and the work they’re doing to change that, without throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.
I am surprised that none of those involved in Tesla autopilot crashes or their relatives have filed lawsuits against them, considering the litigious nature the Americans are known for.
Freight Dog:
I have my own doubts too l Startle effect, comprehension and mental model building are very deep subjects in my field. And experiencing first hand what it’s like, I know the potential death trap they’re pushing themselves into. Aviation went so deep down the rabbit hole, it’s had to dig itself back out.
If you’re engineering out practical and safe ways to marry what’s happening with humans you need a system with 100 percent infallibility or a very large set of lawyers
I’ve read about aviation problems with pilots becoming systems reliant and forgetting the basics of flying and the work they’re doing to change that, without throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.
I am surprised that none of those involved in Tesla autopilot crashes or their relatives have filed lawsuits against them, considering the litigious nature the Americans are known for.
It was a bit more complex really. Some of the systems (airbus #cough) are not ideal and keeping a two way mental model stream with the aircrew. Obviously the Atlantic crash was the high profile one, but there’s been more occasions where it’s all gone wrong and the crew have been completely out of the loop and the information wasnt able to relayed to a crew expediently enough that they could rebuild their situational awareness to “think ahead” levels. Airbus specifically by its design encourages degradation of core flying skills.
Airbus specifically by its design encourages degradation of core flying skills.
Oh brilliant, thats exactly the same in lorry world, whilst obviously not in the same league as flying.
People keep honed in skills by feel and controlling the vehicle so every little movement and sound is known so when something does go wrong, our honed in drivers have the time served feel for the vehicle to make the right corrections by sensing what happening down on the road.
Airplanes whilst obviously miles more complex must still surely be able to be flown by some bugger who’s got seat of the pants feel in the event the electronics all go to ■■■■? and if you aint feeling the vehicle/plane in everyday circs how are you supposed to suddenly learn the bloody thing when all hell has broken loose.
NURSE!
Juddian:
Oh brilliant, thats exactly the same in lorry world, whilst obviously not in the same league as flying.
People keep honed in skills by feel and controlling the vehicle so every little movement and sound is known so when something does go wrong, our honed in drivers have the time served feel for the vehicle to make the right corrections by sensing what happening down on the road.
My lorry has a lane departure waning system. I turn it off because every time I go through existing or former roadworks, it keeps sounding the alarm as it picks up the painted over white lines.
It also has an electronic brake assist. That gets turned off too because on more than one occasion it’s tried to send me through the windscreen as a leaf blew in front of the truck.
Auto exhaust brake and auto coasting (eco mode) get turned off too because they operate at times when I don’t want them too.
Seems to me that the more automatic features they put on my lorry, the more time I spend turning the bloody things off.
I was the same with an iveco I drove.
It had every conceivable gadget.wot a load of ■■■■■■■■.
Cars are the same now…all come with a load of sheet I don’t want,or care to pay for a service time.
It’s even creeping into bikes now ffs
Airbus specifically by its design encourages degradation of core flying skills.
Oh brilliant, thats exactly the same in lorry world, whilst obviously not in the same league as flying.
People keep honed in skills by feel and controlling the vehicle so every little movement and sound is known so when something does go wrong, our honed in drivers have the time served feel for the vehicle to make the right corrections by sensing what happening down on the road.
Airplanes whilst obviously miles more complex must still surely be able to be flown by some bugger who’s got seat of the pants feel in the event the electronics all go to ■■■■? and if you aint feeling the vehicle/plane in everyday circs how are you supposed to suddenly learn the bloody thing when all hell has broken loose.
NURSE!
Contrary to popular belief aircrew hand fly quite a lot, well all the hard bits every time anyway. Plus there’s two days of simulator tests every six months and that’s lots of handling. Very intensive. I worded it badly, it’s hard to explain but the airbus is a computer system. There’s subtleties that make it handle a literal differently to other, conventional aircraft. So it breeds in handling traits from aircrw around that, Essentially on an airbus, the computer is always flying, even if you think you’re hand flying. You only ask it to do stuff and if it doesn’t like it … normally accompanied by the phrase “now what’s it doing?”. Automation suprise it’s called.
Problem with road vehicles being automated is there’ll be no six month recurrent checks. Effective monitoring is actually quite hard. You have to be extremely vigilant to keep your mental model up and work out not “what’s going on”, but “what will happen”. There’s various levels of situational awareness “notice” then “understand” then “take action”, finally “think ahead”. You want to be at the think ahead level, always. It’s not meant derogatory but the average car user, unlike aircrew hasn’t been screened for ability to do all this. There’ll be a lot of the “notice” level when it goes wrong, if you’re lucky
Funnily enough I was just Listening to Lady V on radio 2 discussing a gentleman who had crashed his new ■■■■■ whilst trying to figure out the cruise control.
Showroom tuition, car demo modes on the dash or just Google the thing before collecting it can help alleviate this. To be fair if he has come clean about playing with his CC chances are he was playing with something innapropriate instead
But as new tech takes over and lines become blurred one must be capable of making a split decision whether to leave it to the computer or take manual control.
Dipper_Dave:
Funnily enough I was just Listening to Lady V on radio 2 discussing a gentleman who had crashed his new ■■■■■ whilst trying to figure out the cruise control.
Showroom tuition, car demo modes on the dash or just Google the thing before collecting it can help alleviate this. To be fair if he has come clean about playing with his CC chances are he was playing with something innapropriate instead
But as new tech takes over and lines become blurred one must be capable of making a split decision whether to leave it to the computer or take manual control.
No need for split second decisions.
Do what sports persons do. Rehearse your actions and make the appropriate decisions well in advance.
I thought you’d know better Dipper? Don’t wait until the last second to decide where your shot is going.
Dieseldog…that same woman went into another garage and asked why she couldnt use her car at night…she said it went very well during the day…but refused to move at night…when the garage returned to the car to see her using the auto gearbox…they found she put it into D for daytime …and N for night driving…dont you just love em eh !!
truckyboy:
Dieseldog…that same woman went into another garage and asked why she couldnt use her car at night…she said it went very well during the day…but refused to move at night…when the garage returned to the car to see her using the auto gearbox…they found she put it into D for daytime …and N for night driving…dont you just love em eh !!
l Startle effect, comprehension and mental model building are very deep subjects in my field. And experiencing first hand what it’s like, I know the potential death trap they’re pushing themselves into. Aviation went so deep down the rabbit hole, it’s had to dig itself back out.