Will brexit create shortfall in drivers

[jakethesnake]

Wher2guv:

jakethesnake:
The 2 bold statements - it’s what develops in the years after getting the licence that I consider skills, and which makes lorry driving a semi-skilled job. Not hitting bridges, keeping loads upright, good lane discipline, knowing the nature of all manner of loads and securing/driving appropriately, driving a manual, being able to read a map, accepting the weaknesses and inabilities of less capable motorists and dealing with them with maturity, identifying minor mechanical and technical issues at the road side and resolving them to avoid callouts, etc etc. All those things which add up and refine over the years…
… the physical act of driving an articulated lorry, i.e. throttle, brakes, steering, is ■■■■ easy, but picking up the many other skills required to do the job safely, legally, and efficiently is what so many struggle with.

Fair enough, I understand what you are saying however I still don’t see it the way you do. I roped and sheeted loads, I drove tippers, I drove car transporters, I drove various tankers and much more and yes they took a little time to learn and perfect but I wouldn’t class any of it as semi skilled. Not hitting bridges, reading a map and good lane dicipline are all part of what makes a good driver but certainly are not skills in any way. I would class them as being a responsible driver and using your brain.

As far as the physical act of driving a lorry goes it obviously ain’t ■■■■ easy to some! Many don’t seem to have the basic skill of coming off the throttle when needed and their steering when reversing don’t seem to work very well at times.

So what you are saying is plumbers, electricians, plasterers etc are all unskilled as well. They all study to learn the basics some have natural talent others struggle but they qualify to do the job then with experience become skilled as do most other professions, I think Skill come with experience and training. The fact you have listed your experience proves there are many different skills to be learnt by an HGV Driver which really should make it a skilled profession considering the consequences if something goes wrong.

No, I am not saying that at all. An electrician for example cannot sit an electrical test one day and wire a house the next but a lorry driver can sit a test and drive a lorry the next.It’s a different kettle of fish.
Completely different. The trades you mention have a set apprenticship which involves studying at college and passing proper exams unlike DCPC which does not even have a proper test.
You learn as you go as a lorry driver but there is nothing complicated about any part of it. It just takes time and practice.

A little clue into why the jobs are not comparable… Look at what an electrician can earn in 40 hours and then compare it to a lorry driver for the same hours.

[david_h]

Skills

A driver’s skills unfortunately don’t carry much weight in the industry. A driving licence is one skill a driver can prove they have, but this isn’t nearly good enough for a potential new employer. The first thing that a potential employer does is send a fully qualified driver out on the road for a driving assessment with an ‘assessor’ who may be no more qualified than the driver is. Furthermore, an assessment by one company isn’t accepted as being transferable with a similar company. It simply isn’t respected. So, post-Brexit how will an EU driver looking to settle in the UK present their skills when they are automatically classed as suspect by employers?

You can also see how well a driver’s skills are respected at DVSA check points. DVSA officers don’t treat or hold an older experienced driver with any more courtesy or respect than they do anyone else. Older more experienced trawler skippers are treated with a great deal more respect by harbour masters, Coast Guard etc because, for example, they can produce records that are accepted at face value. The authorities may also know them personally, and have first-hand knowledge about the role.

When an electrician arrives at your house with their Domestic Installers Course qualification, do you both stand on the doorstep while they wire up a sample plug before you let them in?

Employers trade on the apathy of drivers. It means that employers can treat any and all drivers with irreverence. Employers don’t have to grade drivers for any of the skills or service that they’ve acquired over the years. The only exception is when employers need a driver with a stand-alone qualification such as ADR etc. Employers have therefore successfully managed to retain a bidding system for an interchangeable workforce at a price set by the employer.

For as long as drivers are arguing and bickering among themselves over shifts and money, employers will take little or no notice of their overall plight because as long as they are falling out or ganging up on one other they aren’t getting seriously behind a common cause at the depot, locally, nationally or wherever. Because drivers have little else to compare themselves with, they’re obsessed with pay. Promotion, status or minimum welfare standards don’t come into it because they doesn’t exist. Employers can pacify drivers for as little as 30p. Quite remarkably, despite the number of complaints there’s no appetite among drivers to do anything about it. This might be because drivers are reluctant to take up each other’s causes.

This forum (of about 100 regular contributors) does seem to have gravitated towards a common cause though. It continues to whinge and whine about the arrival of EU workers, or Eastern European workers to be fair, that first took place 15 years ago. 15 years ago for crying out loud!

For 15 years Eastern Europeans have been put under the microscope and blamed for just about everything originating from a Hi-Viz vest. They’re this…they’re that and the next thing too. Unlike drivers on this forum who’ve, of course, gained valuable knowledge and experience over these 15 dark years, Eastern European drivers have merely stood still or managed to reverse and even gone backwards into the hedge or fence of time.

But where will it end! It’s taken 15 years for kids born in the UK to Eastern European parents to sit their ‘O’ levels this year. Think about it. In only a few more years’ time these ‘kids’ will be qualified to pull you into a checkpoint, kick your tyres lol and hand out tickets. It’s enough to make that vein pulse away on the side of your head and crush a Klix coffee cup in your hand…

[manalishi]

truckyboy:
I think that there possibly could be a shortage of drivers…on another well known site there have been lots of ads for drivers recently, maybe its starting now…and i havnt seen any before for drivers working for Irish companies…Boris has recently announced that anyone living in the uk, who are not citizens will have to pay for healthcare, prescriptions etc, and i don’t think it stops there , its after all what peeves us, and what we wanted from brexit…so i think many will be moving back to eastern europe, or as one Pole told me, we have saved enough to buy a house, so no rent to pay, a few quid in the bank…and we can go home and work half the hours we used to. So with new regulations upon them the uk will become more expensive, and with the Freedom of movement being stopped, and having to apply for a visa, will also deter others.

Sounds about right.Based on the old economic trope…“a rising tide raises all boats” ,just seems sad that our boats seem stuck in the clag,taking on water as inflation rips wider holes in our collective hulls.Is it too simplistic a theory? ie the EE_ life enhancment project now spreading further east and Africa way to perpetuate this circle of despair?..kind of makes you wonder.

[grumpy_dad]

Entrance into U.K. will be based on a Key Skill points system, with a capped limit per annum.
For years the haulage industry has claimed to be a Skilled Profession, and the DCPC was indeed a supposed step in that direction, but sadly through a lack of backing and support from bodies such as the RHA & FTA, the industry still remains an Unskilled Profession, and the DCPC no more than a scam to entitle a driver to perform an employment he/she/they have already been trained to do.
This lack of backing will be a double edged sword, while being classed as an unskilled profession, immigration entitlement under that employment will not be permitted, however due to the shortage of drivers nationally we could ( unlikely ) see drivers as skilled professionals, more likely we’ll see the red tape regarding entry for drivers pushed aside, thus creating a greater problem legally disallowing other unskilled persons from entry.
The Yanks have Groundhog Day, we have Brexit

[manalishi]

Interesting point gd.Our game is the only one where you qualify and the next ten or so years by definition,become progressively more skilled. I don’t myself have any status issues as to what’s considered skilled per see,it stands as ■■■■ obvious that what we do is a skill,it’s just that when we become fully fledged the job becomes a doddle and almost childs play,engendering a mindset of self criticism at the relative ease with which we execute our trade.A kind of cognitive dissonance kicks in where all the horrors of our hard gained experiences,especially if euro work,map reading etc was a prevailing requirement of those early years,and find we’re still in the vanguard of a chronic deterioration model of employment that pays merely lip service to any notions of professionalism

I think what most of us despise is the increasing corporatisation of the game,ultra micromanaged environments that fly in the face of what attracted most of us of a certain vintage to the industry in the first place,ie a sense of independent autonomy and pride at overcoming challenging scenarios etc.Now faced with driver facing cameras,cab computers “overdriving” and much worse,a newer mindset among certain drivers actually defending and justifying all this insurance company sponsored bs.

If that nauseatingly rolled out phrase (professional) is trotted out,I don’t find it gives me any warm,rosy glow in any shape or size,very much the contrary.Just mere lipstick on a pig propaganda bs aimed at those who complain of the many injustices of the game but covertly acquiesce to ever further ramp ups of this draconian bilge.Must be a cultural thing,the need to defer to some noxious,establishment matrix that needs a radical purge.

[milesahead]

jakethesnake:

corij:
iv never known Felixstowe dock so quiet ,hardly ever see a container ship heading in or out only 5yrs ago usually saw 2 or 3 if ever i looked on the horizon. My neighbour drives a tug ferrying containers onto the train on the dock, lucky if he does 2 days a week when he used to do 6 . Last week i spoke to a container driver hes another sitting at home .All says its the Brexit behind it

Hate to inform you but Brexit ain’t happened yet and the proper effects of leaving the EU will take years to show. The UK did fine before on it’s own and there is no reason why it can’t do the same again.

Anything goes wrong or changes these days and it’s all down to brexit. Complete tosh.

Just in case you missed something, the world has changed since " the UK did fine on it’s own ".

Sent from my HUAWEI LYO-L01 using Tapatalk

[franglais]

milesahead:

jakethesnake:

corij:
iv never known Felixstowe dock so quiet ,hardly ever see a container ship heading in or out only 5yrs ago usually saw 2 or 3 if ever i looked on the horizon. My neighbour drives a tug ferrying containers onto the train on the dock, lucky if he does 2 days a week when he used to do 6 . Last week i spoke to a container driver hes another sitting at home .All says its the Brexit behind it

Hate to inform you but Brexit ain’t happened yet and the proper effects of leaving the EU will take years to show. The UK did fine before on it’s own and there is no reason why it can’t do the same again.

Anything goes wrong or changes these days and it’s all down to brexit. Complete tosh.

Just in case you missed something, the world has changed since " the UK did fine on it’s own ".

Sent from my HUAWEI LYO-L01 using Tapatalk

About 4 centuries worth of change.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[chrisdalott]

Franglais:

milesahead:

jakethesnake:

corij:
iv never known Felixstowe dock so quiet ,hardly ever see a container ship heading in or out only 5yrs ago usually saw 2 or 3 if ever i looked on the horizon. My neighbour drives a tug ferrying containers onto the train on the dock, lucky if he does 2 days a week when he used to do 6 . Last week i spoke to a container driver hes another sitting at home .All says its the Brexit behind it

Hate to inform you but Brexit ain’t happened yet and the proper effects of leaving the EU will take years to show. The UK did fine before on it’s own and there is no reason why it can’t do the same again.

Anything goes wrong or changes these days and it’s all down to brexit. Complete tosh.

Just in case you missed something, the world has changed since " the UK did fine on it’s own ".

Sent from my HUAWEI LYO-L01 using Tapatalk

About 4 centuries worth of change.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Aye

Britain has almost never been on its own, we grew rich exploiting the resources of the empire for a few hundred years, then were solo for a short period after tryend of empire in the 50s when we ended up the sick man of Europe and had to be bailed out by the IMF. Then we joined the EU until the present day

[winseer]

We ended up joining the EEC/EU in the 70’s because we were the sick man of Europe at the time, and futurists realized that the wind-down of the British Empire was almost complete, with or without Thatcher to come in the future.

Running legacy industry with a massive over-capacity and runaway inflation?

In the end, it was either the Thatcher route we actually took OR we stayed as we were with a legacy heavy industries but by the mid-80’s, now unable to compete with China.

By the end of the 80’s - we would have been where the Eastern European states were by that point in the Thatcher era.

We’re expecting various last-ditch attempts to sabotage Brexit by the end of the month, including things like

(1) Legal challengers
(2) Fake News attacks against our current Government
(3) Sabotage of our institutions, including the Monarchy, Judiciary, and Business Culture.
(4) “Infrastructure Hostility” such as “Over-dependence on imported Energy” - totally unnecessarily, as it turns out.
and
(5) A move to actually abolish British Sovereignty outright, apparently popular with Leftist Republicans in this country in particular who mistake being “Anti Royalist” with just being a bloody traitor to the entire British way of life.

What we’ll probably end up with in this country is being something like Canada:

A choice between Conservative and Liberal governments no place for Labour.
A strong trading relationship with next-door Federalist USA, without actually being ruled by them.
A better life for those that work, not so good for those who don’t.

For the time being, Boris Johnson has managed to recruit Remainers who were not prepared to see a Corbyn government as a “price worth paying to Remain”.

If Boris faceplants at the end of this month, as many are pushing him to do - Boris will have the choice himself of either going quietly into the night, or swinging even further Right to “get Brexit Done”.

All hopes of any kind of “Left Brexit” must now surely be dead and buried?

NO re-nationalized utilities. LESS imported workers taking the heat off for those home-grown Brits that are perfectly capable of working, but just choose not to. LOWER taxes for those that do work, meaning LESS money for public services in the long run.

Imo Corbyn had a chance following the 2017 election surge to nail his colours firmly to the “Left Version of Brexit” mast.
He instead decided to appease his Remainer supporters, and ended up losing the support of those very Brexiteer Labour voters who swung away from UKIP to him in the 2017 election.
That same block of voters - now appears to have moved Right towards Boris Johnson, albeit “for the time being”, which Boris to his credit - has already recognized is “temporary”.

We’re on course to become an off-shore business paradise as it stands.

There is a very high chance that Boris’ deal will NOT get done at the end of this month, which is actually GOOD for Brexiteers providing Boris successfully implements a WTO Brexit at the due date and time.

Meanwhile, what foreign driver is going to “jump before they are pushed” by going home when there’s no indication that ANYONE working and paying taxes in this country will be deported as of February 1st?

It was always a complete LIE that “working foreigners would be booted following Brexit”.

I’d expect plenty of OTHER Remainer lies to be exposed as well, now the rip tide is going out at a rate of knots as we approach D-Day.

Come February 1st, it’ll be “Business as Usual” for ALL of us, I suggest.

What would have changed? Remainer firms threatening to lay everyone off if we do Brexit? - NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

[david_h]

It’s taken 15 years for kids born in the UK to Eastern European parents to sit their ‘O’ levels this year. Think about it. In only a few more years’ time these ‘kids’ will be qualified to pull you into a checkpoint, kick your tyres lol and hand out tickets. It’s enough to make that vein pulse away on the side of your head and crush a Klix coffee cup in your hand…
[/quote]

[franglais]

David H:
It’s taken 15 years for kids born in the UK to Eastern European parents to sit their ‘O’ levels this year. Think about it. In only a few more years’ time these ‘kids’ will be qualified to pull you into a checkpoint, kick your tyres lol and hand out tickets. It’s enough to make that vein pulse away on the side of your head and crush a Klix coffee cup in your hand…

Well, it’s 2 days since you first posted this, and 8hrs since you repeated it, and so far no interest?
What point are you making?

[grumpy_dad]

Franglais:

David H:
It’s taken 15 years for kids born in the UK to Eastern European parents to sit their ‘O’ levels this year. Think about it. In only a few more years’ time these ‘kids’ will be qualified to pull you into a checkpoint, kick your tyres lol and hand out tickets. It’s enough to make that vein pulse away on the side of your head and crush a Klix coffee cup in your hand…

Well, it’s 2 days since you first posted this, and 8hrs since you repeated it, and so far no interest?
What point are you making?

I’ll do it …
It’s only been 15 years ? So what about the Polish and other Eastern European nationals who have lived here legally for decades ? Was part of the immigration process sterilisation and refusal of education, surely that was some of the horrors ( some not all ) had escaped from.
I take it where you were raised as a child it was a select part of our glorious country, who turned away migrants of any nationality.

Does it actually matter where their parents came from or is this one of those “ if a dog is born in a stable, doesn’t mean it’s a horse” statements ?
Maybe next time you get a ticket think to yourself, it could have been you if you’d studied harder

[winseer]

From February 1st…

Full Time contracts imo are likely to involve “a lot more expected of the drivers”…

Interestingly, I notice that whilst there are plenty of EEs on agency work, there doesn’t seem to be a proportional number of them occupying the full-time driver jobs…

Is it their choice, of the firm’s…?

At RM - I got the distinct impression that it was the Firm’s choice, but at Brakes - the EE’s mostly chose to be on agency. Those few that tried it as Full Timer, soon chucked it in, and moved on to better prospects elsewhere - put it that way…

…I’ve often wondered why RM seem so keen to throw full time jobs at Non-EE migrants - when there is a clear dearth of EE drivers on both agency and full time there… ‘White Privilage Discrimination’ anyone?
Anyone on here who’s “White” - been offered a full time job at RM of late?

I, for one - am definitely NOT interested in any more “any five from seven” contracts as a full time thing. I’ll do that on agency OK though, 'cos I know I’m being paid for all the extra hours I’m asked to work…

Let’s see if any four-shift week contracts come about on February 1st.
I won’t be holding my breath though.

Perhaps there will one day be a shortage of drivers prepared to work shifts over 10 hours - at which point those like myself happy to do 12-15 hours on a regular basis - will have our day at long last.

The only reason I can see for firms being so stingy about four-day week contracts - is that 26 days holiday comes to 6.5 weeks instead of just over 5 weeks - don’t it?

[trucking_sideways]

Winseer:
Perhaps there will one day be a shortage of drivers prepared to work shifts over 10 hours - at which point those like myself happy to do 12-15 hours on a regular basis - will have our day at long last.

Wish I got given 12-15hour shifts every now and again. Over Christmas I was getting 6-8 hour shifts average, thankfully agency guarantee 8 hours. I would have appreciated rolling 12 hour shifts though !

[eagerbeaver]

Franglais:

David H:
It’s taken 15 years for kids born in the UK to Eastern European parents to sit their ‘O’ levels this year. Think about it. In only a few more years’ time these ‘kids’ will be qualified to pull you into a checkpoint, kick your tyres lol and hand out tickets. It’s enough to make that vein pulse away on the side of your head and crush a Klix coffee cup in your hand…

Well, it’s 2 days since you first posted this, and 8hrs since you repeated it, and so far no interest?
What point are you making?

Just because there has not been replies to the post, it does not mean that no one is interested

[franglais]

eagerbeaver:

Franglais:

David H:
It’s taken 15 years for kids born in the UK to Eastern European parents to sit their ‘O’ levels this year. Think about it. In only a few more years’ time these ‘kids’ will be qualified to pull you into a checkpoint, kick your tyres lol and hand out tickets. It’s enough to make that vein pulse away on the side of your head and crush a Klix coffee cup in your hand…

Well, it’s 2 days since you first posted this, and 8hrs since you repeated it, and so far no interest?
What point are you making?

Just because there has not been replies to the post, it does not mean that no one is interested

Grumpy Dad has now commented, after I quoted that post to encourage debate, and you`ve bumped it again, so yes, there clearly is some interest.
.
Edit. 24hrs later, seems Beaver and I were wrong…

[karlm]

The BBC was covering the alleged ‘driver shortage’ on Inside Out North West the other day. The ladies representing Stalkers (both in the driving seat and the depot) are quite open about the reasons why this ‘shortage’ exists - and say it would be better to offer more money to encourage more people into the job, in reality the money just isn’t there due to the cut-throat nature of the work for large companies and supermarkets, so we are now a few days from 1st Feb, and while there may be a shortfall after Brexit, I doubt many of us (at least in for-profit work) will be looking at a pay rise.

bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m … t-27012020

Couple of other firms on there as well, Abbey Logistics…also SP Training.

[franglais]

The current Gov are looking at dropping minimum pay requirements for immigrants. Committee talking of £25,600. So anyone who was imagining an increase in driver’s pay to cover any driver shortfall, can continue with their…imaginings…
Google it yourselves, many different sources.

[sixties_boy]

Yes a very interesting segment which answered it’s own question, £9.00 p/h (as quoted by driver as hourly rate) is not going to attract anyone in to the industry, when the minimum wage rises to £8.72 in April

[toonsy]

Sixties boy:
Yes a very interesting segment which answered it’s own question, £9.00 p/h (as quoted by driver as hourly rate) is not going to attract anyone in to the industry, when the minimum wage rises to £8.72 in April

Ah yeah but dont forget the “it’s good money crew”

By that I mean 40hrs at £9ph gives a weekly take home of whatever, but not as much as 60hrs+ at £9ph. Which then makes it “good money” because you take home more money than the average person, even though you’ve worked a week and a half or more in the week to get it.

Dont get me wrong, transport and distance work especially is long hours - if you don’t do long hours you won’t cover long distance - but the farce of it being “good money” perpetuated by drivers who believe it needs to stop. Its poorly paid hourly work with excessive hours.