But you could put some of them on £25 per hour and they’d still want to work 70 hours per week.
Conor- Wrighty1 is correct in my view. We all know that different areas of the country pay differing rates, but this national average wage figure includes extremely wealthy people’s income including footballers wages etc.
I would suggest the ’ real ’ average pay figure is closer to £24,000.
Lets say for instance you have someone working your 43.6 hours average at the living wage which I believe is £7.50 per hour paid over 52 weeks, that amounts to £17,004 per year and believe me that makes up a massive proportion of workers in Britain today and that’s if they’re not trapped on zero hours contracts or the huge amount of part time jobs that exist now. All of a sudden averages don’t look quite so good.
Conor:
Its not a rubbish figure, its one from the Office for National Statistics
For a man with a signature like yours you seem awfully trusting of government figures on the matter
AndrewG:
And what sort of cowboy ins company are they using to not insure re driving convictions especially for trivial IN10’s…
And…cunningly worded to entrap the unwary…tossers
A Company that is prepared to keep the idiots of this world, who think fines for DD etc etc are trivial, off the road
Upsides: By stating you get paid a minimum 12 hours regardless of what you are doing, you’re never going to be working more than a 5 shift week.
Downsides: Because you ARE being paid “minimum 12 hours” then the firm may well expect you to add “two 45 minute breaks unpaid” to that, along with whatever your commute time is going to be. You might be expected to do nights out in a day cab as well.
Assuming the overtime is time-and-a-half, then we make the assumption that of the 60 hours, 48 of it is @ £12.00 and the remaining 12 hours @ £18.00 making a total gross wage of £576+£216 = £792pw which does indeed look like “coming upto what they quoted” as a Per annum wage.
Here’s another upside: 25 days a year holiday at THIS outfit is worth more hours off than 25 days holiday at other outfits. Each day off is being paid just under £160, and counts as 12 hours towards your weekly aggregate - because 12 hours is your normal number of hours worked and paid for.
However the “six points ok” stipulation in the advert makes me suspicious that the “Holiday pay rate” will somehow be based on somewhat less than 12 hours : £12ph… If you ever took the whole week off (which a typical employee will be wanting to do…) then the holiday pay would likely end up being £12x60 hours FLAT since no one gets paid “overtime” on “holiday credit hours” - Right?
One has to be a cynic here and inquire as to why any yard feels the need to run people ragged for hours, rather than just dish out 3x12 hour paid weeks (39 hour week including 1 hour off for breaks) - and then make you “week about” with a “set mate” - thus sharing that 60 hour nightmare with two driers - and yet still getting a wage of £432 with overtime available every time your set mate is on holiday/off sick with you acting as “built-in-subbie”. THIS would be a far safer option, and doesn’t involve paying out any extra in wages… BUT would obviously involve paying the overheads for two staff instead of one, and paying holiday pay for more of the aggregate two-staff hourages than one would otherwise. It’s dearer, but not that much dearer I suspect. 
The bonus to the company is that you can overlap the staff when things get busy, and even get weekend coverage sorted for “no extra charge”. There’s no need to pay more than time and a half for working saturday for example, and one could even argue that beginning work on a sunday evening - might come to the same end.
It would be essential that the contracted is worded as “12 hours per day guaranteed” though. You don’t want to be palmed off with “8 hours with 4 hours built-in overtime” because you’re gonna get murdered when you take a holiday otherwise. 
wrighty1:
Conor:
wrighty1:
Which we all know is just a rubbish figure like the average wage in the UK is £28’000, if only it was that easyIts not a rubbish figure, its one from the Office for National Statistics. When you get paid your employer has to report to HMRC how much you got paid and how many hours you’ve worked since HMRC went on to realtime reporting a few years ago so the figure is more accurate than it ever has been because if you get paid every week then HMRC get told every week what you’ve earned and what hours you’ve worked. It is no longer a single figure given at the end of the year with no figure for the hours you’ve done.
Just because it happens to be not too far off what you earn for 60hrs a week doesn’t make it wrong.
I take it you know how averages are worked out?
Do you? Serious question because some of the responses here suggest that some participants don’t understand what is being quoted.
Winseer:
Upsides: By stating you get paid a minimum 12 hours regardless of what you are doing, you’re never going to be working more than a 5 shift week.Downsides: Because you ARE being paid “minimum 12 hours” then the firm may well expect you to add “two 45 minute breaks unpaid” to that, along with whatever your commute time is going to be. You might be expected to do nights out in a day cab as well.
Assuming the overtime is time-and-a-half, then we make the assumption that of the 60 hours, 48 of it is @ £12.00 and the remaining 12 hours @ £18.00 making a total gross wage of £576+£216 = £792pw which does indeed look like “coming upto what they quoted” as a Per annum wage.
Here’s another upside: 25 days a year holiday at THIS outfit is worth more hours off than 25 days holiday at other outfits. Each day off is being paid just under £160, and counts as 12 hours towards your weekly aggregate - because 12 hours is your normal number of hours worked and paid for.
However the “six points ok” stipulation in the advert makes me suspicious that the “Holiday pay rate” will somehow be based on somewhat less than 12 hours : £12ph… If you ever took the whole week off (which a typical employee will be wanting to do…) then the holiday pay would likely end up being £12x60 hours FLAT since no one gets paid “overtime” on “holiday credit hours” - Right?One has to be a cynic here and inquire as to why any yard feels the need to run people ragged for hours, rather than just dish out 3x12 hour paid weeks (39 hour week including 1 hour off for breaks) - and then make you “week about” with a “set mate” - thus sharing that 60 hour nightmare with two driers - and yet still getting a wage of £432 with overtime available every time your set mate is on holiday/off sick with you acting as “built-in-subbie”. THIS would be a far safer option, and doesn’t involve paying out any extra in wages… BUT would obviously involve paying the overheads for two staff instead of one, and paying holiday pay for more of the aggregate two-staff hourages than one would otherwise. It’s dearer, but not that much dearer I suspect.
It would be essential that the contracted is worded as “12 hours per day guaranteed” though. You don’t want to be palmed off with “8 hours with 4 hours built-in overtime” because you’re gonna get murdered when you take a holiday otherwise.
Classic winseer post, so much full of ■■■■ and waffle whilst filling in blanks that aren’t there.
Getting paid for 5 x 12 hour shifts doesn’t mean you’ll be limited to them 5 shifts.
12 x 60 x 52 = 37440.
So not really sure how your 48@12 1■■18 is coming up to their quoted figure
I’ve never worked anywhere that deducts a second 45 and only know of one firm locally that does if you go over a 13 hour day. So without anything hinting towards it I don’t see why you’d bring it up.
Holiday is to be paid at average hours now
I don’t see why you need to be cynical, maybe they only have work for 5 days a week, so the job share would be 3 one week, 2 the next, I’d think it’d be far easier to fill the post as a 5x12 rather than find 2 2/3 x12. But I’m sure there will be some doing this job share somewhere.
eagerbeaver:
Conor- Wrighty1 is correct in my view. We all know that different areas of the country pay differing rates, but this national average wage figure includes extremely wealthy people’s income including footballers wages etc.I would suggest the ’ real ’ average pay figure is closer to £24,000.
The figure being quoted is not a simple arithmetic mean (i.e. add up the total, divide by the number of people), so the enormous salaries paid to foopballers and the extremely wealthy elite have no effect on the figure.
Conor:
albion:
Do I think hours are excessive yes, but no more than many other jobs for which you don’t need years of qualifications.The average working week in the UK is 43.6hrs…
So I asked him seriously of his mates that left school at 16, how many does he know that earn 40+k, and he doesn’t know one.
And how many of them are working 60+hrs a week with nights away from home? How many lorry drivers are earning £40k+ with 5 nights out a week? How many are earning that without any nights out? Very few. A vast majority of them are earning very little more than the UK national average wage but they’re doing 60hrs for it, not 40 or so.
.
Well if the average is 43, then quite a few people are working a lot more to compensate for those doing less. I’ve been working for 32 years and apart for 8 months in a 9-5 in a ■■■■■■ office job, the hours have been long. They key thing is what you are prepared or able go do to secure a basic hours for decent pay job. If you have no great academic ability or drive/wish to stay at school, then there goes a load of jobs you won’t have a sniff at. Having a Class 1 license isn’t a huge achievement, it didn’t require a shed load of brains, it didn’t require years out of your life to train and compared to some qualifications, it didn’t cost that much. I’m not being disrespectful, I spend a lot of time championing drivers to the general public and to my customers, but that’s the reality. I’ve got an expired forklift license and an expired DGSA License, so I’m even less qualified than most on here. All I’ve ever had is a willingness to work brutal hours, cos no one was going to pay me to be a model. As someone pointed out, there are regular get home jobs out there.
Most of his mates don’t earn the average for 40 hours, cos they left at 16 and didn’t get a qualification of any sort. I’m the first to say that the hours are silly in some cases. But there is a huge variety in the work. Because I’ve not been in general haulage for 25 years, I can only speak for my job. Take the aforementioned Sweden job, load one case, strap, pootle to ferry. Deliver other side, 8 hours driving max, back on the ferry same day, highly unlikely that having come back at four in the morning in the yard you will work until Monday. The downside is that you will be away all week because I can’t make Sweden closer, or make the ferry go faster. If no one likes it, then they can leave for a job that keeps them at home every night.
I have said before that personally I think there needs to be a change in hours, change in pay doesn’t bother me, because I’d be competing against people who are also having to pay another three, four, five quid an hour. But as drivers can’t influence their pay beyond certain parameters, I can’t influence my rates beyond certain parameters either.
Edit: double posted.
Roymondo- Why would wealthy and high income earners be excluded from the national average wage calculation?
And how do you know it is?
eagerbeaver:
Roymondo- Why would wealthy and high income earners be excluded from the national average wage calculation?And how do you know it is?
He didn’t say they were excluded, just wouldn’t have an effect because of the way the maths are done.
As of April 2015 (Source ONS/ASHE), the national MEDIAN average wage was £27,600. The figures compiled are taken from a 1% sample from HMRC PAYE figures.
Logic would dictate that regardless of the percentage used, the elite and footballers WILL be included to some degree or other.
Don’t let people who spout complete ■■■■■■■■ influence you Radar So Wrighty1 is correct in what he says, the REAL average of full-time working folk is nowhere near £28,000.
stevieboy308:
Winseer:
Upsides: By stating you get paid a minimum 12 hours regardless of what you are doing, you’re never going to be working more than a 5 shift week.Downsides: Because you ARE being paid “minimum 12 hours” then the firm may well expect you to add “two 45 minute breaks unpaid” to that, along with whatever your commute time is going to be. You might be expected to do nights out in a day cab as well.
Assuming the overtime is time-and-a-half, then we make the assumption that of the 60 hours, 48 of it is @ £12.00 and the remaining 12 hours @ £18.00 making a total gross wage of £576+£216 = £792pw which does indeed look like “coming upto what they quoted” as a Per annum wage.
Here’s another upside: 25 days a year holiday at THIS outfit is worth more hours off than 25 days holiday at other outfits. Each day off is being paid just under £160, and counts as 12 hours towards your weekly aggregate - because 12 hours is your normal number of hours worked and paid for.
However the “six points ok” stipulation in the advert makes me suspicious that the “Holiday pay rate” will somehow be based on somewhat less than 12 hours : £12ph… If you ever took the whole week off (which a typical employee will be wanting to do…) then the holiday pay would likely end up being £12x60 hours FLAT since no one gets paid “overtime” on “holiday credit hours” - Right?One has to be a cynic here and inquire as to why any yard feels the need to run people ragged for hours, rather than just dish out 3x12 hour paid weeks (39 hour week including 1 hour off for breaks) - and then make you “week about” with a “set mate” - thus sharing that 60 hour nightmare with two driers - and yet still getting a wage of £432 with overtime available every time your set mate is on holiday/off sick with you acting as “built-in-subbie”. THIS would be a far safer option, and doesn’t involve paying out any extra in wages… BUT would obviously involve paying the overheads for two staff instead of one, and paying holiday pay for more of the aggregate two-staff hourages than one would otherwise. It’s dearer, but not that much dearer I suspect.
It would be essential that the contracted is worded as “12 hours per day guaranteed” though. You don’t want to be palmed off with “8 hours with 4 hours built-in overtime” because you’re gonna get murdered when you take a holiday otherwise.
Classic winseer post, so much full of [zb] and waffle whilst filling in blanks that aren’t there.
Getting paid for 5 x 12 hour shifts doesn’t mean you’ll be limited to them 5 shifts.
So where does “maximum 60 hour working week with no opt-out” fit in there then, “If I’m wrong”…?12 x 60 x 52 = 37440.
So not really sure how your 48@12 1■■18 is coming up to their quoted figureIf that wage is a salary, then there won’t ever be any overtime. You cannot legally have someone working 60 hours week-in, week out - because there is no opt-out. For the “Average” to be 48 - you’d need some weeks at 60 hours and the same number to offset them at 36 hours - right? Also, if the job is “Salaried” (the £37440 doesn’t include any overtime) then the average hourly rate is going to be a lot higher than £12 IF you’re not working the full set of hours each and every day (which you won’t be able to do week in and week out - because that would be illegal as I’ve just stated above!)
I’ve never worked anywhere that deducts a second 45 and only know of one firm locally that does if you go over a 13 hour day. So without anything hinting towards it I don’t see why you’d bring it up.
I didn’t say anything about “Deduction” a second 45, just that you’ll probably end up having to legally take a second 45 break - because of the sheer number of hours driving/on duty you’ll be doing.Holiday is to be paid at average hours now
Getting paid effectively for 60 hours in your holiday weeks is one of the upsides I mentioned - but that would mean “not being able to reduce your average WTD hours so they don’t persist above the average 48 throughout the entire year”I don’t see why you need to be cynical, maybe they only have work for 5 days a week, so the job share would be 3 one week, 2 the next, I’d think it’d be far easier to fill the post as a 5x12 rather than find 2 2/3 x12. But I’m sure there will be some doing this job share somewhere.
If you did a rotating “3 on 3 off” then you’d only need a single set mate to rotate with. Also, when one of you is on holiday or off sick - extra hours are then available. Because you know in advance when holidays are to be taken (obviously both drivers cannot be allowed off at once!") then you won’t need to be wasting money on agency, and you keep all the premium overtime payments “in the family” so to speak. I would argue that a 2-driver rotate about system would be a cushy job for two dedicated drivers to be getting on with. On quiet weeks, you could just do the 39 hour 3-day week as I described, and the total wage would be pushed up by the effective guaranteed overtime from covering the other driver’s holiday and any sick they might take as well. Agency would only be got in when the rare occasion of “One driver on holiday/other off sick” or “both off sick” happens. It’s too many hours for one driver to do week in, week out. I can’t see any reason as to why the job cannot be split between two drivers, and that headline wage halved between them as well, based on “known and intended overtime” throughout the year.
eagerbeaver:
As of April 2015 (Source ONS/ASHE), the national MEDIAN average wage was £27,600. The figures compiled are taken from a 1% sample from HMRC PAYE figures.Logic would dictate that regardless of the percentage used, the elite and footballers WILL be included to some degree or other.
Don’t let people who spout complete ■■■■■■■■ influence you Radar
Please - where did I say those astronomically high earners are not included? I did not - I said their wages will have no effect on the figure, which as you have put in capitals is a median figure, not an arithmetic mean.
[classroom mode]
Now children, who can explain how we arrive at the median figure for a given dataset?
That’s right - we rank all the data in order from lowest to highest and then we pick the one slap bang in the centre. Notice how this means a few (or even thousands of) extremely high earners (such as a few hundred foopballers, and all those greedy bankers and company chairmen) earning millions of pounds a year won’t affect the median figure one iota - the bloke (or blokette) at number 20,500,000 in the list is still on £27,600…
[/classroom mode]
Average pay, includes all professions but if you look at the statistics in more depth it breaks down the figures and probably gives a more accurate picture compared to similar professions.
Personally I think Truck driver would come under Process, plant and machine operatives
But of course you might have a differing and equally valid opinion.
Weekly pay by occupation. Median 2016 (£)
Managers, directors and senior officials £797.6
Professional occupations £725.8
Associate professional and technical occupations £593.7
Administrative and secretarial occupations £423.3
Skilled trades occupations £498.0
Caring, leisure and other service occupations £352.9
Sales and customer service occupations £354.9
**Process, plant and machine operatives £467.5 **
Elementary occupations £356.4
The figures are also skewed by the much higher average pay in London,
UK £538.7
North East £494.0
North West £503.2
Yorkshire and The Humber £498.3
East Midlands £483.2
West Midlands £510.2
East £528.8
London £670.8
South East £566.0
South West £505.0
Wales £492.4
Scotland £535.0
Northern Ireland £495.2
Winseer old chap, I’ve explained this to you several times in the past, but you still keep peddling your same old nonsense, why do you do that?
Getting paid for 60, being on duty for 60, is not the same as 60 working time limit, it’s even the point of the original post, as breaks and poa don’t count towards working time
I go to work at 0600, finish at 1800, but have 5 hours on break / poa, then that leaves 7 hours of driving + other work that are counted as working time for the WTD
Get paid for 12, have a duty of 12, but only 7 hours of working time, towards the average of 48 and max of 60. It’s quite straight forward.
They’ve put up a yearly figure, as that’s what they are paying as a minimum 12 x 60 x 52. But also saying overtime is available on top of that. Now as I’ve just shown you above, you can get paid 60 hours or more week in week out.
You see when you said “two 45 minute breaks unpaid” I thought you meant you’d be deducted 2 45 minute breaks, but it turns out you didn’t, you sure?
Getting paid for 60 hours holiday pay will still see that week, if it’s in the fixed week, be recorded as 48 hours, it will not be recorded as 60.
Like I said, maybe they are not a 7 day a week operation, so 3 on 3 off isn’t going to work for them and they’ll find it far easier to attract a driver wanting 5 shifts a week
The trouble with any statistics is they are only as good as the data provided.
They only see black and white not the shades of grey of true reality.
No matter what job your in do you really switch off, I dont mean teachers with all their ‘marking’ but every job, whether your doing a bit extra at home or just preping for the next day. No matter what job you do some of your so called free time will have a work element, even if its just thinking about work.
Im quite happy being paid for long hours, whether im working those hours or not is another matter. Even as a tramper I give some time, like putting my gear back in the wagon on a Sunday, saves me faffing about Monday. Course I can get this time back in a way but I often find as stated that my employers roundabout is a lot bigger than my little swing.
As this forum shows most of us have a passion about our jobs that mean we like to chat about them in work time and even in our free time. Dont think theres a shelfstackersUK.net forum yet but its only a matter of time.
Roymondo:
eagerbeaver:
As of April 2015 (Source ONS/ASHE), the national MEDIAN average wage was £27,600. The figures compiled are taken from a 1% sample from HMRC PAYE figures.Logic would dictate that regardless of the percentage used, the elite and footballers WILL be included to some degree or other.
Don’t let people who spout complete ■■■■■■■■ influence you Radar
Please - where did I say those astronomically high earners are not included? I did not - I said their wages will have no effect on the figure, which as you have put in capitals is a median figure, not an arithmetic mean.
[classroom mode]
Now children, who can explain how we arrive at the median figure for a given dataset?That’s right - we rank all the data in order from lowest to highest and then we pick the one slap bang in the centre. Notice how this means a few (or even thousands of) extremely high earners (such as a few hundred foopballers, and all those greedy bankers and company chairmen) earning millions of pounds a year won’t affect the median figure one iota - the bloke (or blokette) at number 20,500,000 in the list is still on £27,600…
[/classroom mode]
Well how nice of you to be so patronising but still if you really think that the millions of people working in all of those RDC’s, shops, care workers, factory workers, cleaners etc earn the national average I can assure you they don’t. In a two or three years there will be a massive percentage of working people in the UK working for the National Living Wage which was a system of good intent brought in by Labour and taken advantage of by industry to actually reduce wages.