Bewick:
Ah! got you “carryfast” your a conductor on the last Routemaster in service in London!!! fighting to keep your job!! Oh boy would I love to roll onto your bus with the gang off here,at chucking out time !!! We’d give you hell my son!! No violence ,of course,but just a right “royal ribbing” ding ding,anymore fares please!! Bewick
Ah ah nice 1 
gingerfold:
Should have mentioned that the 65 chassis order was from Harold Wood, who along with BRS could call off chassis from AEC on demand.
I heard a tale that Harold Woods cancelled a similar order for 100 MKV 8 wheelers with the 9.6 engine due to poor performance dont know how true that was and tried to offer a seat on the board as an incentive … could be a load of bull though
Carryfast:
kr79:
Carryfast:
kr79:
As a reader of the classic commercial magazines there is quite a few articles about British trucks down under and it’s seems aec were held in high regard until the mid60s when the ergomatic cabbed range was introduced when they started to give lots of trouble.
We have seen on here how aec had a prototype modern American style cab in the late 60s and how leyland stopped the revised v8 going in to production who knows if aec and scammell had been left indipendant we may have still had a truck industry in this countryWhich part of not a snowball’s chance in hell don’t you understand.
What two innovative engineering led company’s with strong home and export markets that got caught up in a in fighting government created monster
If you take out the Ozzies etc,who’ve by this time,rightly,gone over to home built Kenworths in a big way,exactly which ‘export’ markets are we talking about
.The home market,as we’ve seen,is,at this time,at best, just looking for something with a day cab and a naturally aspirated boat anchor in it or a small 7 Litre screamer at worse.So where does a gutless thirsty V8 or TL12 powered wagon with a day cab copy of a cab over Pete cab,or the T45 as it turned out in the end too late,fit into a home market still dominated by something like an old Atki with a 180 Gardner in it or an export market dominated by something like a Kenworth with a 300-400 + horsepower ■■■■■■■ or Detroit in it,or the DAF 2800 which is already on the drawing board and soon ready for production heading this way just as soon as the Brit customers get their act together and make the jump to something with around 300 hp and a decent cab
Gutless V8 ■■? I think you should listen to some of the comments from drivers who actually drove those V8s,i dont think anyone called them gutless as for the TL12 well at 272 bhp in `74 im sure it was quite nippy too, but if it had been in a big silly yank motor with all the crap they put on them im sure you would have been a fan.The more comments i read of yours the more i question if you have ever driven a lorry you sound more like a computer geek who knows how to google
ramone:
Carryfast:
kr79:
Carryfast:
kr79:
As a reader of the classic commercial magazines there is quite a few articles about British trucks down under and it’s seems aec were held in high regard until the mid60s when the ergomatic cabbed range was introduced when they started to give lots of trouble.
We have seen on here how aec had a prototype modern American style cab in the late 60s and how leyland stopped the revised v8 going in to production who knows if aec and scammell had been left indipendant we may have still had a truck industry in this countryWhich part of not a snowball’s chance in hell don’t you understand.
What two innovative engineering led company’s with strong home and export markets that got caught up in a in fighting government created monster
If you take out the Ozzies etc,who’ve by this time,rightly,gone over to home built Kenworths in a big way,exactly which ‘export’ markets are we talking about
Gutless V8 ■■? I think you should listen to some of the comments from drivers who actually drove those V8s,i dont think anyone called them gutless as for the TL12 well at 272 bhp in `74 im sure it was quite nippy too, but if it had been in a big silly yank motor with all the crap they put on them im sure you would have been a fan.The more comments i read of yours the more i question if you have ever driven a lorry you sound more like a computer geek who knows how to google
I could actually make exactly the same accusation concerning yourself but just can’t be bothered.Not a computer geek only learnt how to use one (just) a few years ago.Everything I’ve written is from memory and what I knew in the day and it’s just that now there is also the added advantage of being able to make sure wether you’ve remembered right and to post the confirmation on here when you’ve found it (it was a ‘few’ years ago now).But I’ve not said anywhere that I’d have been a big fan of most Leyland products as they were in the 1970’s wether it looked like a yank motor or not.
‘Gutless’ in this context means in comparison with the rate of development in power and torque outputs taking place at the time by Leyland’s competitors and the TL 12 powered T45, just was’nt a decent competitor for what was available at the time and the V8 did’nt exactly take the home or export markets by storm either.The only difference between my view on those issues and many others view is where the blame for all of those issues rests.
So we come full circle, bad management was the biggest factor in the demise of the British Truck Manufacturing Industry, whether it was BL dragging the Truck Division down or the stubborn reluctance to give the customers what they want from Atkinson, ERF and Foden
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, for a merger to work properly you need to have some rationalisation, not a lot of point in competing with yourself 
If the mob at Leyland were blessed with it, the best of AEC, Albion, Guy, Leyland and Scammell could’ve been put together to make a lorry that would be more than equal to the continental competition, but that wouldn’t have been enough, not with the attitudes that prevailed in the corridors of power
kr79:
Carryfast:
gingerfold:
Carryfast again makes a valid point. At the time of the 1962 Leyland / AEC merger, AEC was struggling financially and was basically undercapitalised. This had been a constant theme in is finances since it was floated as a separate company from London Transport in 1933. Whilst it was the major supplier of buses to LT it is questionable how profitable that business was down the years. In 1962 AEC had engine developments in place (updated versions of existing designs) plus the all new V8. Leyland had nothing new in the pipeline on the engine front (until the 500 series development started in about 1967). Leyland brought the Ergomatic cab to the party in 1964, praised at the time as a big advance in driver comfort, but with many shortcomings in practice. Some pointer where AEC might have gone if it had remained an independent company might be gleaned from its European collaberations with Willeme and Bollekens, whose cabs looked spacious and attractive. Could AEC have survived as an independent company? No, I don’t think so.
Could Leyland have survived bearing in mind it already had Albion and Scammell in the fold? No I don’t think so. Could the Leyland Group with AEC, Guy, Scammell, Albion etc but without the car division have been a viable operation. Yes, I think it could if it had been managed differently and amalgamated the best from all its disparate divisions.Or there’s the alternative ending (if only).An ex fire engine manufacturer employee went over to the States and asked Kenworth if it would be possible to set up a uk manufacturing division in just the same way that the Australians did.The rest
(might just) have been history.What if that’s the story of your life according to what you post here.
The fact is British manufacturers were to slow to react to change in the European and commonwealth markets
Wrong the fact is the British manufacturers were caught in a development and sales catch 22 caused by the demands of the home market customers.It was a bit difficult to ‘react’ to a commonwealth market which was calling for advanced US technology or the rate of development taking place in europe when the home customers were still demanding 1950’s technology.
newmercman:
So we come full circle, bad management was the biggest factor in the demise of the British Truck Manufacturing Industry, whether it was BL dragging the Truck Division down or the stubborn reluctance to give the customers what they want from Atkinson, ERF and FodenHindsight is a wonderful thing, for a merger to work properly you need to have some rationalisation, not a lot of point in competing with yourself
If the mob at Leyland were blessed with it, the best of AEC, Albion, Guy, Leyland and Scammell could’ve been put together to make a lorry that would be more than equal to the continental competition, but that wouldn’t have been enough, not with the attitudes that prevailed in the corridors of power
Not much point in spending money on developing something that would have been ‘better’ than,not just equal to,the foreign competition if you can’t sell the thing on the home market when you’ve built it .
That’s even if there’d have been any money in the bank anyway which there was’nt because we’d given it all to the Germans and the rest to re build after a world war and had to pay the yanks back for the interest to add insult to injury. 
ramone:
gingerfold:
Should have mentioned that the 65 chassis order was from Harold Wood, who along with BRS could call off chassis from AEC on demand.I heard a tale that Harold Woods cancelled a similar order for 100 MKV 8 wheelers with the 9.6 engine due to poor performance dont know how true that was and tried to offer a seat on the board as an incentive … could be a load of bull though
Harold Wood had been buying AECs since the 1930s, when he started his business. I don’t believe that he was ever offered a seat on the AEC board despite being a large and valued customer. He did have his own AEC dealership, CV Sales and of course built his own cabs for Mk.III and Mk.V chassis. Despite his great success as a haulier and businessman Harold Wood never forgot his humble beginnings and remained a very down to earth man all his life. He did obviously have plenty of ‘clout’ with AEC and if a Harold Wood tanker broke down then the nearest AEC depot had to pull out all the stops to get it mobile again as soon as possible.
gingerfold:
ramone:
gingerfold:
Should have mentioned that the 65 chassis order was from Harold Wood, who along with BRS could call off chassis from AEC on demand.I heard a tale that Harold Woods cancelled a similar order for 100 MKV 8 wheelers with the 9.6 engine due to poor performance dont know how true that was and tried to offer a seat on the board as an incentive … could be a load of bull though
Harold Wood had been buying AECs since the 1930s, when he started his business. I don’t believe that he was ever offered a seat on the AEC board despite being a large and valued customer. He did have his own AEC dealership, CV Sales and of course built his own cabs for Mk.III and Mk.V chassis. Despite his great success as a haulier and businessman Harold Wood never forgot his humble beginnings and remained a very down to earth man all his life. He did obviously have plenty of ‘clout’ with AEC and if a Harold Wood tanker broke down then the nearest AEC depot had to pull out all the stops to get it mobile again as soon as possible.
But I’d bet that with all that ‘clout’ even he never asked AEC to build a fleet of 300-450 hp + wagons and I’d bet that he would’nt have specced a cab like those that the yanks could offer.
Yeah but at least he ran a fleet of trucks and gained his knowledge from that rather than pushing dinky toys around and watching smokey and the bandit
kr79:
Yeah but at least he ran a fleet of trucks and gained his knowledge from that rather than pushing dinky toys around and watching smokey and the bandit
Which is exactly the type of arrogance that caused the loss of British firms like AEC.But can’t see how anyone could have earnt a living in the industry as I did by just pushing dinky toys around and watching films although the question is where all those who seem to think in those terms are getting their ideas from. 
Carryfast:
kr79:
Yeah but at least he ran a fleet of trucks and gained his knowledge from that rather than pushing dinky toys around and watching smokey and the banditWhich is exactly the type of arrogance that caused the loss of British firms like AEC.But can’t see how anyone could have earnt a living in the industry as I did by just pushing dinky toys around and watching films although the question is where all those who seem to think in those terms are getting their ideas from.
There speaks another perceptive TN member,“kr79” he can see right through the garbage you spout on the thread “CF” same as the rest of us! he summed up correctly where you gained your knowledge! Bewick.
Bewick:
Carryfast:
kr79:
Yeah but at least he ran a fleet of trucks and gained his knowledge from that rather than pushing dinky toys around and watching smokey and the banditWhich is exactly the type of arrogance that caused the loss of British firms like AEC.But can’t see how anyone could have earnt a living in the industry as I did by just pushing dinky toys around and watching films although the question is where all those who seem to think in those terms are getting their ideas from.
There speaks another perceptive TN member,“kr79” he can see right through the garbage you spout on the thread “CF” same as the rest of us! he summed up correctly where you gained your knowledge! Bewick.
If he’s right then AEC and all the rest would still be in business.But just like the inconvenient truth of what caused their demise I’m speaking from experience of the shop floor of the truck manufacturing industry in the 1970’s which does’nt seem to be the case in your case or kr79’s unless I’m wrong.
Carryfast:
kr79:
Yeah but at least he ran a fleet of trucks and gained his knowledge from that rather than pushing dinky toys around and watching smokey and the banditWhich is exactly the type of arrogance that caused the loss of British firms like AEC.But can’t see how anyone could have earnt a living in the industry as I did by just pushing dinky toys around and watching films although the question is where all those who seem to think in those terms are getting their ideas from.
Harold Wood operated tankers, anyone who runs tankers, knows the first priority is payload and reliabilty.
Re: Were The Continental Lorry’s Much Better ?
Yes, they were, and the most successful were DAF, even now they hold the biggest market share of heavy European vehicles, They have made big inroads into Australia and Africa in their own right and under the banner of Paccar have the most successful dealer backup of anyone, all others measured themselves against ITS or DAF Aid as we knew it.
DAF or Van Doornes was a trailer builder who went into vehicle building using Hercules and Perkins engines, they then looked for something bigger and began buying small 5.75 Leyland engines. In 1955 Leyland could not keep up production of bus and lorry chassis so had a massive glut of engines. Many of the engines were exported, to SISU, Scania and eventually DAF.
DAF started to build the 680 under licence after the 575 was considered too small, but improved it beyond recognition. It was only 11.1 litres and DAF resized it to 11.6, an engine still recognised today.
DAF invented spring brakes, and used turbo intercooling for the first time on haulage vehicles. When DAF came into the UK, they had studied the market and gave the customer what he was asking for, they have done this ever since, rather than being told what you can have.
Can you tell I have being reading a history book? I will admit it, because all this happened before I was born or when I was only about 2 or 3 years old. I didn’t have as much influence on European truckbuilding as me old mucker Carryfast.
Carryfast, your experience of the shop floor can only be of sweeping it in the 70’s
Carryfast:
Bewick:
Carryfast:
kr79:
Yeah but at least he ran a fleet of trucks and gained his knowledge from that rather than pushing dinky toys around and watching smokey and the banditWhich is exactly the type of arrogance that caused the loss of British firms like AEC.But can’t see how anyone could have earnt a living in the industry as I did by just pushing dinky toys around and watching films although the question is where all those who seem to think in those terms are getting their ideas from.
There speaks another perceptive TN member,“kr79” he can see right through the garbage you spout on the thread “CF” same as the rest of us! he summed up correctly where you gained your knowledge! Bewick.
If he’s right then AEC and all the rest would still be in business.But just like the inconvenient truth of what caused their demise I’m speaking from experience of the shop floor of the truck manufacturing industry in the 1970’s which does’nt seem to be the case in your case or kr79’s unless I’m wrong.
Which production line were you on at Meccano Dinky toys CF? The Foden 8 wheeler one,the ERF one or the Reliant Van one? My considered guess would be the latter line!!! Luvley Jubbly my son!! Bewick.
Bewick:
Carryfast:
Bewick:
Carryfast:
kr79:
Yeah but at least he ran a fleet of trucks and gained his knowledge from that rather than pushing dinky toys around and watching smokey and the banditWhich is exactly the type of arrogance that caused the loss of British firms like AEC.But can’t see how anyone could have earnt a living in the industry as I did by just pushing dinky toys around and watching films although the question is where all those who seem to think in those terms are getting their ideas from.
There speaks another perceptive TN member,“kr79” he can see right through the garbage you spout on the thread “CF” same as the rest of us! he summed up correctly where you gained your knowledge! Bewick.
If he’s right then AEC and all the rest would still be in business.But just like the inconvenient truth of what caused their demise I’m speaking from experience of the shop floor of the truck manufacturing industry in the 1970’s which does’nt seem to be the case in your case or kr79’s unless I’m wrong.
Which production line were you on at Meccano Dinky toys CF? The Foden 8 wheeler one,the ERF one or the Reliant Van one? My considered guess would be the latter line!!! Luvley Jubbly my son!! Bewick.
This one Bewick amongst others and while you and your lot were zbing about with 1950’s technology I was busy learning all about real motors.That’s not to say that this would’nt have gone even better with some turbocharging on it but only 635 hp in the 1970’s was’nt too bad.
Carryfast:
Bewick:
Carryfast:
Bewick:
Carryfast:
kr79:
Yeah but at least he ran a fleet of trucks and gained his knowledge from that rather than pushing dinky toys around and watching smokey and the banditWhich is exactly the type of arrogance that caused the loss of British firms like AEC.But can’t see how anyone could have earnt a living in the industry as I did by just pushing dinky toys around and watching films although the question is where all those who seem to think in those terms are getting their ideas from.
There speaks another perceptive TN member,“kr79” he can see right through the garbage you spout on the thread “CF” same as the rest of us! he summed up correctly where you gained your knowledge! Bewick.
If he’s right then AEC and all the rest would still be in business.But just like the inconvenient truth of what caused their demise I’m speaking from experience of the shop floor of the truck manufacturing industry in the 1970’s which does’nt seem to be the case in your case or kr79’s unless I’m wrong.
Which production line were you on at Meccano Dinky toys CF? The Foden 8 wheeler one,the ERF one or the Reliant Van one? My considered guess would be the latter line!!! Luvley Jubbly my son!! Bewick.
This one Bewick amongst others and while you and your lot were zbing about with 1950’s technology I was busy learning all about real motors.That’s not to say that this would’nt have gone even better with some turbocharging on it but only 635 hp in the 1970’s was’nt too bad.
I bet that at brew times when you leaned your brush against the wall,the lads let you sit in the drivers seat of one!! Then when they started again they would wonder what all the “snot and slaver” was on the inside of the screen!! Oh! that was “carryfast” making a noise like a Gardner 4LK!!! They should have put wipers on the inside of the screen as well!!! Pip pip!! Brumm Brumm, go on “CF” give it some wellie my son!! Bewick.
If I remember correctly didn’t White start selling wagons over here and Paccar bought Foden out and both are now noticeable by their absence from the U K market nowadays so it makes one believe that they had the wrong products or poor sales staff and neither did much in Europe as well. I think White were bought out by Volvo and Western Star failed with E R F so the only success the yanks have had in Europe is with DAF and they did not change much there.
There is further proof by todays announcement that jobs are being lost in Derby at the train makers as politicians ordered new ones from Germany and it was the same with the army tank transporters being bought from the U S when we had a superior product over here ( Scammell ) but they could have their shares in these company’s and therefore make our own work force jobless as they have been doing since the 80s with all our manufacturing industry. which I personally think is because all politicians are just incompetent at whatever they do.
cheers Johnnie
sammyopisite:
If I remember correctly didn’t White start selling wagons over here and Paccar bought Foden out and both are now noticeable by their absence from the U K market nowadays so it makes one believe that they had the wrong products or poor sales staff and neither did much in Europe as well. I think White were bought out by Volvo and Western Star failed with E R F so the only success the yanks have had in Europe is with DAF and they did not change much there.There is further proof by todays announcement that jobs are being lost in Derby at the train makers as politicians ordered new ones from Germany and it was the same with the army tank transporters being bought from the U S when we had a superior product over here ( Scammell ) but they could have their shares in these company’s and therefore make our own work force jobless as they have been doing since the 80s with all our manufacturing industry. which I personally think is because all politicians are just incompetent at whatever they do.
cheers Johnnie
Like we haven’t got a truck manufacturing industry, neither have we got a railway rolling stock company, but did we ever have after selling off BREL.
The trains are to be built at Siemens’ Krefeld plant in Germany, with some components supplied from the Siemens Transmission & Distribution Ltd plant at Hebburn in Tyne & Wear. DfT says that ‘up to 2 000’ new jobs will be created in the UK: 600 associated with component manufacturing, 650 with the building of depots at Hornsey in London and Three Bridges in West Sussex, and up to 750 maintaining the trains and operating the depots, including the wider supply chain.
Bombardier Canadian Conglomerate.
Maybe the politicians wanted to keep the money in Europe
Both companies are based in Germany, Berlin and Munich