W.H.WILLIAMS (spennymoor)

[peter_coaker]

Carl Williams:
In the early seventies we were getting an increasing number of removals to Europe, and it is difficult to know how to deal with Customs unless you, yourself had some experience.
We had an enquiry from NATO to give an estimate to remove a British member of their staff who was based in Naples to move to NE England and we estimated the load to be about 600 cu ft and our price was accepted. It was the ideal opportunity of learning by going to Italy and carrying out the removal.
Phil Riley, who was then a porter was to accompany me and our route was set ferry Dover-Ostend into France, Switzerland into Italy and down to Naples.
We had three Leyland (BMC) 350 FG’s with 3.8 litre diesel engines and 750 cu ft fibreglass bodies by Marsden of Warrington. I chose to take the newest, CPT404L which was just about three months old at that time. For those of you who remember the FG’s had the threepenny bit cabs which in their larger form were mostly used as bread vans. The advantage these had for us was that under 3.5 ton gross was free from operator’s licence. At the time we also had two 3.5 GVW Transits with 650 Cu Ft Marsden Bodies and a Bedford CF equivalent making up our smaller vans we operated and the FG’s were certainly better than these, having a proper chassis and conventional springs, and strange for Leyland at that time were fairly reliable.We also had had larger fuel tanks fitted. On the downside the unladen weight was about 2.5 ton giving a load limit of just 1 ton, the cab was particularly uncomfortable (In fairness they were designed for urban deliveries not high mileage work), and finally they had a crash gearbox, when fitted with the larger engine.
We set off on a Monday morning, making it to Ostend (Via Dover) in good time and proceeded into France where we found somewhere to stay about a mile off the main road. Although I took French at school I was not very good and the inn where we stayed had no one speaking English. With my broken French we managed to get something to eat and a few drinks before going to bed. Next morning we made an early start. At one point Phil was able to tell me ‘See that house there, the third one down, we moved them in there’… At one customs post I managed, trying to get as close as possible the customs officer’s office, to bump his flag with the front corner of the luton.
I believe we were going to cross the St Gothard’s pass in Switzerland, I believe now it’s now been tunnelled but as we headed towards the summit the FG heated up and we were empty. We stopped for something to eat and let the engine cool down and fill up the radiator. THE PHOTO BELOW IS AT THIS POINT (If you enlarge you can just make out the van)
We headed on and our next stop was to stay overnight on the outskirts of Florence.
Next morning we carried on without stopping and approaching Naples we were starving. I saw a restaurant at the side of the road and we pulled in. They could only speak Italian and we managed to make signs to show we were hungry and wanted something to eat. We hadn’t a clue what was on the menu but were brought a plate of spaghetti which we ate thinking this was it, but to our delight it was followed by two massive steaks.
By some miracle and Phil’s wonderful map reading we arrived at the house. Kindly they welcomed us and gave us bunk beds to sleep in that night. We were up next morning to start to load.
One thing neither of us had anticipated was the heat. Also the chap we were moving was a collector of stones. By about 11am we were loaded, and what a load it was. With Phil’s skilful packing we managed to get everything on but the weight. It must have weighed about three ton. We were grossly over-loaded and we had the Alps to cross, and in a vehicle designed for urban deliveries. We decided to start out and not stop just buying drinks as we refuelled, and at seven o’clock at night we reached the bottom of our climb of four hours in second gear. The 3.8 litre diesel engine drove you sick with its continual drum drum noise, never the less we managed back again at 11 o’clock at night without overheating to where this photo was taken where we stayed overnight. Phil said ‘Thank heaven we are up here’ However I had to explain what goes up must come down and I had no brakes. They were not designed for this heavy a load.
Next morning we got up early and after breakfast we started our long journey. I held the van in second gear and slowly down we went. It took almost 4 hours but at least we were safe.
Approaching the French Customs’ we could see them pointing at us and laughing. ‘No ping this time’ the customs officer had said as he waved us through, obviously remembering me bumping his flag on the last time.
Our paperwork was made out in Italian, French and English and as well we had a letter addressed from NATO asking them to assist our journey.
Passing through France, once again we did not stop just getting sandwiches and soft drinks as we refuelled.
We travelled along their A1 Which led us to cross customs and travel into Ostend where Phil, from his previous journeys, assured me we would have a good night out? Especially as it was a Saturday night.
The customs post at that time between the France and Belgium had high towers at each side where they could see each other with a strip of no man’s land in between. The French customs let us through and when we went to the Belgium customs I was met with dismay. I could not understand what the customs officer was saying. He obviously didn’t speak English and with my broken French I could not understand him. After talks for a long time where he had made it obvious we could not cross.
Eventually in perfect English he told me that as our paperwork was not made out in Flemish and we could not speak Flemish we could not enter. In my ignorance I never knew there was such a language. I asked when I could see someone to discuss it and was told 9-00AM Monday morning
We were in no man’s land neither in France or Belgium, starving hungry and tired from the journey. There was nothing there not even water to drink, so I went back to the French side. I told him what was wrong and he phoned up his Belgium counter part. We could see him answer the phone and they argued like mad with one another. The French customs officer then decided he would let us back into France and suggested we could go to Dunkirk and catch the hovercraft. ‘Not with that ‘ I pointed to the van, which was far too high to drive onto a hovercraft. He immediately got back on the phone to the Belgium Customs Officer again and was shouting to him down the phone. All to no avail and our only option was go back into France and travel to Calais where we arrived at four in the morning. We waited for the ferry and I don’t know how Phil managed but I fell asleep with my head on the steering wheel.I had to reverse onto the ferry, with the sun bright and dazzling my eyes into what seemed ‘The black hole of Calcutta’ but the ferry staff guided me into place.
We had a good crossing and got something to eat only to find when I pulled off the ferry at Dover and started to drive on the left, the van was very unstable. We had packed to compensate for the camber of the road being right in Italy and it was leaning well over with the left camber.
Things got worse. The customs demanded the van was unloaded so they could inspect the contents.
I reached agreement that Phil would stay with the van at Dover and I rang back to Spennymoor and arranged for one of our large vans which was loaded for Dover to take a driver with him and they could tranship from one van onto the other whilst the customs watched and I returned to Spennymoor by train
In the end I suppose it had a fortunate ending as had I been daft enough to try to drive back in England I would no doubt have been stopped by the police and been prosecuted for overloading.
Perhaps if Phil or any of his family read this and ask him about it they’ll have one of the biggest laughs of their life, as I have done many times, as I look back but at the time it was not so funny.

Hello Carl
Great stories, as a youngster I always admired your innumerable bedford furniture vans going up and down the A1. At the time I thought it amazing how many people must be moving house!
Your trip to Italy reminds me of my first trip to Italy in the early seventies, being very green I parked up for the night in a layby just short of the Pass of Mt Cenis. Imagine my dismay when I started out the next morning, went around the first bend to be faced with a sign saying “Col Fermee”. It had closed for the winter 2 days earlier, so that meant a detour via The Mont Blanc Tunnel, which I haad been trying to avoid to save the toll. Still you learn from experience. At least I was not driving a BMC FG, I had the comfort and luxury of a 330 engined TK.
Peter

[carl_williams]

gingerfold:
Carl you deserve a medal for driving a BMC FG all the way to Italy and back. They were the noisiest and most uncomfortable commercial vehicle I have ever driven. Just changing gear was a challenge… a double jointed shoulder would have made it easier. When I worked for Mothers Pride i frequently went from Wigan to our sister bakery at Darwen to collect bread they produced for Wigan bakery. That round trip was far enough in a FG, and climbing Bull Hill out of Darwen with a full load of 2-lb loaves of sliced and wrapped bread was a deafening experience. Goodness knows how you got one over the Alps. My deep respect to you.

Hi Gingerfold,
I was never one for taking holidays only probably having less than 15 weeks off in my total life apart from 2 or 3 day breaks mostly at bank holidays and I’m now nearly 73 (Where did those years go). I considered holidays a waste of time as there always was so much going on at work I never wanted to miss.
I therefore thought as well as a training exercise I thought this trip would be a little break. The job was priced for using an FG for the ferry costs & MPG and at that time I never thought of the possibility of doing it myself.

I forget who was the regular driver of CUP and I suspect he was a little peeved at me taking the vehicle and no doubt he would probably have had to work a week as a porter doing Phil Reilly’s work with a driver on a HGV van. However it was just as well I did it as it would have been unfair to place the responsibility of driving of a young teenager or 20 year old driver. On the other hand I didn’t fully explain that the owner of the house collected stones (ancient ones) that we were unaware of when we estimated. They filled the van floor & were extremely heavy & we then put the furniture on top, Without these stones the van would not have been overloaded, but even then it was a long journey (About 2,000 mile from memory) in a FG.

Carl

[remy]

Carl Williams:
Two of several Leyland (BMC) Lairds we sadly operated… I don’t know who drove these perhaps someone might remember? All I remember was they cost us a lot of money as they were continually breaking down. Along wit Leyland Boxers which we had several (one example on second photo), Leyland Lynx tractor units and Dodge 24 ton gross tractor units with Perkins 634 engines they contributed towards the end of our company. The Leyland Lynx with the fixed head was a good start for Leyland. Our first broke down in Leicester at about 3 months old with gearbox problems. Apparently they were OK on the level but the oil ran out when they went up hills. Ford and Slater towed it in and told us it needed a new gearbox. But they were on back order and they had several in the workshops all waiting for gearboxes and they thought they would take at least 6 months to get them. Who can afford new vehicle off the road for six months waiting for spares? and we were in the process of painting two more new Lynx’s we had bought. I read in Commercial Motor that Des Pitchard had been appointed as head of Leyland Trucks and intended to sort them out. My dad made a ‘Person to person’ telephone call booked to Des Pitchard, who was taken back when he received the call and was full of apologies and said Ford & Slater would receive a gearbox within 48 hours. We rang Ford & Slater and told them they would have a box within 48 hours. ‘We’ve heard that all before’ they joked, but within two days they rang back saying ‘How on earth did you manage that?’. Person to Person phone calls were a good idea, I don’t know if they are still available.

I see you didn’t have the Luton bit above the tilt cabs, I drove this BMC delivering kitchen cabinets and it had the Luton on but the floor was higher up and the front panel hinged to tilt cab. It was a bit of a waste as we could only load a couple of cabinets up there.

[deanb]

Carl, Just read about your trip to Naples, what a fantastic read that was !

I would have been very worried about boiling up empty on the climb,fair play to you as thats a mission in one of those to Naples.

Heres an advert from 1968. Click on pages twice to read.

[carl_williams]

ERF-NGC-European:

gingerfold:
Carl you deserve a medal for driving a BMC FG all the way to Italy and back. They were the noisiest and most uncomfortable commercial vehicle I have ever driven. Just changing gear was a challenge… a double jointed shoulder would have made it easier. When I worked for Mothers Pride i frequently went from Wigan to our sister bakery at Darwen to collect bread they produced for Wigan bakery. That round trip was far enough in a FG, and climbing Bull Hill out of Darwen with a full load of 2-lb loaves of sliced and wrapped bread was a deafening experience. Goodness knows how you got one over the Alps. My deep respect to you.

I think the bigger FG was the really noisy one. The little FG 30cwt ‘threepenny-bit’ lorry wasn’t so bad. Mine had a 2.2 BMC diesel in it and I ran it as my private car for a couple of years and used it to help at harvest times! The noise was a bit wearing on long journeys up and down the country but for pottering about it was fine. Ro

0

Hi Windrush & Peter, thank you for your comments & if you bear with me I will be replying shortly its just I like to give a concise reply and although I have dementia it affects me strangely as prior 1980 I seemed to remember as though it was yesterday & after 1980 I progressively have problems & as late I’m finding I’m having a little difficulty remembering when things happen & getting things in chronological order, so I like to do a little research and think things through so I’ll soon reply.

Now to your posts Ro.

You show the FG artic belonging to Binns, who have several department stores round North East & part of House of Frazer, or did before lockdown & goodness knows if they’ll re-open.

This is where I struggle with dates, but Binns had an Austin (BMC) dealership in Sunderland so its possible they supplied the artic to themselves, but as I say I cannot remember when it was closed. I remember (very faintly) it being in the centre of Sunderland not attached to the department store but only a street or two away, and from memory they had a BMC breakdown truck usually parked near the entrance. (I’ve seen a photo of it somewhere not too long ago). Certainly an unusual vehicle the artic & I can never remember seeing it in real life.

As you say about the 2.2 litre which was the standard engine on the 30 cwt & 2 tonners was a lot easier to drive as it didn’t have a crash box as you had with the larger engine & can imagine it would be good to potter about with.

Our first FG was a 2 tonner & we bought a chassis scuttle & had an integral pantechnicon body built on it by Marsden’s of Warrington new in 1964. ■■■■ Barret Atkin was sales manager at Turvey & Co Morris agents& supplied it and all our new FGs& suggested the larger engine which was an optional extra. I can remember him saying of the FG that although not everyone’s choice the 3.2 litre engine would run & run the crash box would last for ever & we’d never need to change a clutch. The cab, although people could be unhappy with the door access, you’d never need to change a door or hinge and the cabs will more or less remain rust free. All of which was true.

I’ll save the story of the 2 tonner DPT100B for another day but it did not suite use as an integral cab so the next 3 we bought were 30 cwt because by then they were exempted from Operators Licence J, K & L reg the latter I took to Naples & again although very unusual for 30 cwt we had the 3.2 engines. All three were with us until we closed in 1986. The 2 tonner had been sold to Richardson Removals Stockton about 1976 & only because it was using up an ‘O’ licence.

We also inherited a 3 tonner from our Wellingborough depot and a 30 cwt platform which we used for our tyre fitter & carrying a few odds & ends.

The final new FG we bought was in the early 80s again from Barratt-Atkins who by then had moved to Hargreaves at Stockton On Tees who had the Leyland franchise and on this occasion we just got the 2.2 litre engine & our own company, Coachskill Ltd built a box van body on it. We put a hatcher illuminated headboard on the cab roof and although I personally don’t like box vans it looked quite smart, or at least I thought it did.

So all in all we had a bit experience running FGs. In all cases the 3.2 engines proved very reliable & we only changed one. We never changed a clutch even though we used young first time drivers in most cases driving them and never had any cab deterioration because of rust or wear.

Best wishes
Carl

[windrush]

The engines were actually 3.4 litre in the early ones and 3.8 later Carl. A 4 litre petrol was an option. The 3.4 was a development from the Saurer diesel that Morris-Commercial fitted in the NVO/FVO models and was a reliable unit, although the fuel pump was on the offside as the Saurers were so not easy to work on. The 3.8 suffered with less space around the liners for cooling and they did have head gasket and liner sealing issues like their ‘big brother’ the 5.7. Various types of gasket were tried, one sort set solid when warm and was a nightmare to remove! Most of the ones we serviced were on local ‘stop start’ deliveries and the constant heating and cooling didn’t help with the gasket issues. One ‘quirk’ of the engine was if somebody had left the flat washer off of the bolts securing the inlet manifold the bolt end hit the head stud and jammed it all solid, I found that out the hard way when trying to remove a head and even our engine crane wouldn’t shift it until I removed the manifold!

I fitted plenty of clutches in them, an easy enough task although the starter motor was a little awkward. Being mostly on multidrop work they were hard on clutches but the gearbox gave few problems and it was cheaper to fit a Gold Seal replacement than repair the old one. Rear axles, a split case one on the 2-4 tonners like the LD/LC vehicles etc, were ok unless oil leaked from the halfshafts. The complete axle had to be removed and split then as the seals were fitted from inside the casing, the hubs were grease lubricated. I am on the FG Facebook page and there are still plenty around, a friend of mine has one with a vintage Ruston engine in the back that he exhibits.

Pete.

[carl_williams]

Peter Coaker:

Carl Williams:
In the early seventies we were getting an increasing number of removals to Europe, and it is difficult to know how to deal with Customs unless you, yourself had some experience.
We had an enquiry from NATO to give an estimate to remove a British member of their staff who was based in Naples to move to NE England and we estimated the load to be about 600 cu ft and our price was accepted. It was the ideal opportunity of learning by going to Italy and carrying out the removal.
Phil Riley, who was then a porter was to accompany me and our route was set ferry Dover-Ostend into France, Switzerland into Italy and down to Naples.
We had three Leyland (BMC) 350 FG’s with 3.8 litre diesel engines and 750 cu ft fibreglass bodies by Marsden of Warrington. I chose to take the newest, CPT404L which was just about three months old at that time. For those of you who remember the FG’s had the threepenny bit cabs which in their larger form were mostly used as bread vans. The advantage these had for us was that under 3.5 ton gross was free from operator’s licence. At the time we also had two 3.5 GVW Transits with 650 Cu Ft Marsden Bodies and a Bedford CF equivalent making up our smaller vans we operated and the FG’s were certainly better than these, having a proper chassis and conventional springs, and strange for Leyland at that time were fairly reliable.We also had had larger fuel tanks fitted. On the downside the unladen weight was about 2.5 ton giving a load limit of just 1 ton, the cab was particularly uncomfortable (In fairness they were designed for urban deliveries not high mileage work), and finally they had a crash gearbox, when fitted with the larger engine.
We set off on a Monday morning, making it to Ostend (Via Dover) in good time and proceeded into France where we found somewhere to stay about a mile off the main road. Although I took French at school I was not very good and the inn where we stayed had no one speaking English. With my broken French we managed to get something to eat and a few drinks before going to bed. Next morning we made an early start. At one point Phil was able to tell me ‘See that house there, the third one down, we moved them in there’… At one customs post I managed, trying to get as close as possible the customs officer’s office, to bump his flag with the front corner of the luton.
I believe we were going to cross the St Gothard’s pass in Switzerland, I believe now it’s now been tunnelled but as we headed towards the summit the FG heated up and we were empty. We stopped for something to eat and let the engine cool down and fill up the radiator. THE PHOTO BELOW IS AT THIS POINT (If you enlarge you can just make out the van)
We headed on and our next stop was to stay overnight on the outskirts of Florence.
Next morning we carried on without stopping and approaching Naples we were starving. I saw a restaurant at the side of the road and we pulled in. They could only speak Italian and we managed to make signs to show we were hungry and wanted something to eat. We hadn’t a clue what was on the menu but were brought a plate of spaghetti which we ate thinking this was it, but to our delight it was followed by two massive steaks.
By some miracle and Phil’s wonderful map reading we arrived at the house. Kindly they welcomed us and gave us bunk beds to sleep in that night. We were up next morning to start to load.
One thing neither of us had anticipated was the heat. Also the chap we were moving was a collector of stones. By about 11am we were loaded, and what a load it was. With Phil’s skilful packing we managed to get everything on but the weight. It must have weighed about three ton. We were grossly over-loaded and we had the Alps to cross, and in a vehicle designed for urban deliveries. We decided to start out and not stop just buying drinks as we refuelled, and at seven o’clock at night we reached the bottom of our climb of four hours in second gear. The 3.8 litre diesel engine drove you sick with its continual drum drum noise, never the less we managed back again at 11 o’clock at night without overheating to where this photo was taken where we stayed overnight. Phil said ‘Thank heaven we are up here’ However I had to explain what goes up must come down and I had no brakes. They were not designed for this heavy a load.
Next morning we got up early and after breakfast we started our long journey. I held the van in second gear and slowly down we went. It took almost 4 hours but at least we were safe.
Approaching the French Customs’ we could see them pointing at us and laughing. ‘No ping this time’ the customs officer had said as he waved us through, obviously remembering me bumping his flag on the last time.
Our paperwork was made out in Italian, French and English and as well we had a letter addressed from NATO asking them to assist our journey.
Passing through France, once again we did not stop just getting sandwiches and soft drinks as we refuelled.
We travelled along their A1 Which led us to cross customs and travel into Ostend where Phil, from his previous journeys, assured me we would have a good night out? Especially as it was a Saturday night.
The customs post at that time between the France and Belgium had high towers at each side where they could see each other with a strip of no man’s land in between. The French customs let us through and when we went to the Belgium customs I was met with dismay. I could not understand what the customs officer was saying. He obviously didn’t speak English and with my broken French I could not understand him. After talks for a long time where he had made it obvious we could not cross.
Eventually in perfect English he told me that as our paperwork was not made out in Flemish and we could not speak Flemish we could not enter. In my ignorance I never knew there was such a language. I asked when I could see someone to discuss it and was told 9-00AM Monday morning
We were in no man’s land neither in France or Belgium, starving hungry and tired from the journey. There was nothing there not even water to drink, so I went back to the French side. I told him what was wrong and he phoned up his Belgium counter part. We could see him answer the phone and they argued like mad with one another. The French customs officer then decided he would let us back into France and suggested we could go to Dunkirk and catch the hovercraft. ‘Not with that ‘ I pointed to the van, which was far too high to drive onto a hovercraft. He immediately got back on the phone to the Belgium Customs Officer again and was shouting to him down the phone. All to no avail and our only option was go back into France and travel to Calais where we arrived at four in the morning. We waited for the ferry and I don’t know how Phil managed but I fell asleep with my head on the steering wheel.I had to reverse onto the ferry, with the sun bright and dazzling my eyes into what seemed ‘The black hole of Calcutta’ but the ferry staff guided me into place.
We had a good crossing and got something to eat only to find when I pulled off the ferry at Dover and started to drive on the left, the van was very unstable. We had packed to compensate for the camber of the road being right in Italy and it was leaning well over with the left camber.
Things got worse. The customs demanded the van was unloaded so they could inspect the contents.
I reached agreement that Phil would stay with the van at Dover and I rang back to Spennymoor and arranged for one of our large vans which was loaded for Dover to take a driver with him and they could tranship from one van onto the other whilst the customs watched and I returned to Spennymoor by train
In the end I suppose it had a fortunate ending as had I been daft enough to try to drive back in England I would no doubt have been stopped by the police and been prosecuted for overloading.
Perhaps if Phil or any of his family read this and ask him about it they’ll have one of the biggest laughs of their life, as I have done many times, as I look back but at the time it was not so funny.

Hello Carl
Great stories, as a youngster I always admired your innumerable bedford furniture vans going up and down the A1. At the time I thought it amazing how many people must be moving house!
Your trip to Italy reminds me of my first trip to Italy in the early seventies, being very green I parked up for the night in a layby just short of the Pass of Mt Cenis. Imagine my dismay when I started out the next morning, went around the first bend to be faced with a sign saying “Col Fermee”. It had closed for the winter 2 days earlier, so that meant a detour via The Mont Blanc Tunnel, which I haad been trying to avoid to save the toll. Still you learn from experience. At least I was not driving a BMC FG, I had the comfort and luxury of a 330 engined TK.
Peter

Hi Peter,
At the time we had a couple of small TK luton vans One G Reg & the other H Reg about 1200 cu ft each with 330 cu in engines that I could have had the choice of. Here is a photo of one of these with my ex wife in about 1979 about 5 years later when we did a promotion for Round Table. The van was due for a re-paint so it was chosen at that time as the notices stuck on damaging the paintwork wasn’t a problem.
Either of these would have been more suitable in retrospect as they would have carried the weight better and both although about 3 to 4 years older than the FG I used had extremely low mileage as they were just used n local removals most weeks. However they were longer & heavier & the ferry charges would have been higher & would have achieved no-where near the fuel consumption the FG achieved

Regards Carl

[carl_williams]

remy:

Carl Williams:
Two of several Leyland (BMC) Lairds we sadly operated… I don’t know who drove these perhaps someone might remember? All I remember was they cost us a lot of money as they were continually breaking down. Along wit Leyland Boxers which we had several (one example on second photo), Leyland Lynx tractor units and Dodge 24 ton gross tractor units with Perkins 634 engines they contributed towards the end of our company. The Leyland Lynx with the fixed head was a good start for Leyland. Our first broke down in Leicester at about 3 months old with gearbox problems. Apparently they were OK on the level but the oil ran out when they went up hills. Ford and Slater towed it in and told us it needed a new gearbox. But they were on back order and they had several in the workshops all waiting for gearboxes and they thought they would take at least 6 months to get them. Who can afford new vehicle off the road for six months waiting for spares? and we were in the process of painting two more new Lynx’s we had bought. I read in Commercial Motor that Des Pitchard had been appointed as head of Leyland Trucks and intended to sort them out. My dad made a ‘Person to person’ telephone call booked to Des Pitchard, who was taken back when he received the call and was full of apologies and said Ford & Slater would receive a gearbox within 48 hours. We rang Ford & Slater and told them they would have a box within 48 hours. ‘We’ve heard that all before’ they joked, but within two days they rang back saying ‘How on earth did you manage that?’. Person to Person phone calls were a good idea, I don’t know if they are still available.

I see you didn’t have the Luton bit above the tilt cabs, I drove this BMC delivering kitchen cabinets and it had the Luton on but the floor was higher up and the front panel hinged to tilt cab. It was a bit of a waste as we could only load a couple of cabinets up there.

I was never a fan of boxvans, much preferring luton vans or better still pantechnicons. I also preferred vans with wheelboxes & drop wells as the cubic capacity added by the luton and lower floor provided by the higher inside height & size of the luton adds about a fifth to a boxvan with a straight through floor. I always took the position if we offered a customer a van as large as possible to carry the biggest load possible we kept the unit cost of transport down to the minimum cost. As an example we did a lot of work for Thorn EMI domestic appliances & if we kept the cost of delivering a Tricity fridge to the minimum cost the customer was always more likely to retain your services.
However eventually their mentality was that we should use level floors with tail lifts so most of our vans after L reg had level floors and tail lifts to give us versatility of use and sadly, in my eyes although exterior of vans were large with bodies the same size, we never again had a new really large van.

Then came the problem of tilt cabs. We had 3 Dodge, 4 Ford D series, 1 Commer Comando & 3 Seddon 13/4 with Luton bodies (Although I’m not sure whether the seddons had tilt of fixed cabs) with tilt cabs, like the Dodge in the photo. To tilt the cab there were flaps on the front that lifted up and the floor of the luton foldered to allow the cab to tllt. Even though the majority of these vans were built by Marsden & had really good bodies, the flaps on the front always got damaged over the years with usage and often suffered whilst being driven in windy conditions. Also although it very rarely occurred what happens when the van has a breakdown during a journey & its fully loaded (inc the luton) and the cab needs tilting. It has to be unloaded so most tilt cabs we had as boxvans.

Going back to the tail lift situation. All our vans had barrows made by one of our customers who made tubular furniture which were modified from ones made for moving stacking chairs & designed for going up & down stairs so they could easily wheel fridges & cookers down onto the drop well then onty the underslung tailboards & then onto the floor and into shops warehouses etc without any damage & with total ease. However those who had never seen onto the back of a van decided tail lifts were the answer, & like anything mechanical they went wrong. We used tail lift vans on removals and although about 1 ft 6in higher at the rear due to lack of wheel boxes & drop wells they didn’t hinder our drivers and were handy in the case of pianos and safes, but they did help when packing a van to full height as the Radcliffe tail lifts which we used mostly would lift almost to the full height so they didn’t need to balance on step ladders. Also for removals usually pubs where often stair cases were huddled behind the bar & impossible to get wardrobes & beds down & we had to remove upstairs window if we could get the rear of the van near the tail lift came into good use. We did a lot of work for Vaux breweries moving landlords & manages of their Swallow hotel group and tail lifts helped.

[carl_williams]

First of all thanks to Dean B for posting this photo on another thread

The van in photo is a Guy Otter. Wonder where the inside back wheels have gone? It must be an artists impression rather than a photo.

We had three of them 2 B Reg & 1 C Reg. I haven’t a photo of any of ours but keep hoping one turns up.
And although quite a few photos of the model before turn up from time to time that’s the first I’ve see of that cab, which is a smaller version of the Guy Invincible cab, I always thought Arthur Rathbone at Marsden’s used it for inspiration for the square twin headlamp cab he designed for the Bedford SBs in 1965.

They Guys had 4 cylinder Gardiner Engines that achieved about 26 mpg and were very reliable but top speed was just 40 mph which was OK in 1964 but as motorways developed they were quickly outdated and the Guy cab suffered very bad cab rotting which was a shame because apart from that they were built like battleships
As there were so few built so few we were worried that spare parts might have been a problem, but we opened an account with Guy Motors at Wolverhampton & they had everything on the shelf. On two occasions I, myself nipped down to Wolverhampton a 360 mile round journey when we wanted something urgently & we hadn’t a van passing, but even then we had the parts back in our workshop days before any Leyland parts that always needed ordering VOR (Vehicle off the road).

[carl_williams]

Carl Williams:
First of all thanks to Dean B for posting this photo on another thread

The van in photo is a Guy Otter. Wonder where the inside back wheels have gone? It must be an artists impression rather than a photo.

We had three of them 2 B Reg & 1 C Reg. I haven’t a photo of any of ours but keep hoping one turns up.
And although quite a few photos of the model before turn up from time to time that’s the first I’ve see of that cab, which is a smaller version of the Guy Invincible cab, I always thought Arthur Rathbone at Marsden’s used it for inspiration for the square twin headlamp cab he designed for the Bedford SBs in 1965.

They Guys had 4 cylinder Gardiner Engines that achieved about 26 mpg and were very reliable but top speed was just 40 mph which was OK in 1964 but as motorways developed they were quickly outdated and the Guy cab suffered very bad cab rotting which was a shame because apart from that they were built like battleships
As there were so few built so few we were worried that spare parts might have been a problem, but we opened an account with Guy Motors at Wolverhampton & they had everything on the shelf. On two occasions I, myself nipped down to Wolverhampton a 360 mile round journey when we wanted something urgently & we hadn’t a van passing, but even then we had the parts back in our workshop days before any Leyland parts that always needed ordering VOR (Vehicle off the road).

AA little bit of the fate of these three Guy Otter luton vans we were operating in the seventies.
As I explained the were very slow with the four cylinder Gardner engines, but very reliable and extremely economical.
■■■■ Porter, one of our mechanics persuaded dad to recondition an engine in one of them. We expected it to be expensive, but were spellbound when we bought a factory reconditioned short motor from Painters Newcastle, main Gardner agents, which remarkably they had, off the shelf, and were astonished that the cost was much less than the Bedford equivalent. ■■■■ also did extensive welding to the cab structure which was suffering severe rot.
Following the success of this effort we continued to recondition the other two. They lasted another two years or so but the cabs were the let-down. The bodies which were built in the Coop’s own body shop were very well built and well matched to the robust Guy chassis, and were surprised that these would fit under Bedford TK chassis cabs perfectly, so we bought three Bedford TK chassis cabs from our neighbours on Green Lane Ind Est., Watson’s Carriers, and the bodies survived anther 5 years of life.
One important thing the Guy’s taught us was the reliability and economy of the wonderful Gardner engines, which led to us eventually starting to replace our tractor units with ERF’s with Gardner, and although we were using 32 ton gross tractors at about 22 ton gross in the majority of cases, the 180bhp engines gave good speed carrying the reduced loads and excellent reliability, with about 50per cent extra fuel consumption to Bedford Ford Leyland etc.

[carl_williams]

Our first garage built on part of the garden at 14 Marmaduke street Spennymoor in about 1929. It had been a Wesleyan Chapel at Leeholme, Coundon Bishop Auckland & dismantled and rebuilt with high doors at the rear of photo by Jacky Birch who had worked for my Grandfather from 1920 till he retired in 1955 aged 65 living in Lynn road Spennymoor. Jacky never drove & worked as a porter, but was very handy as a joiner repairing van bodies especially during 1920s & 30s when we carried cattle which often damaged the back frames and safety gates.
This garage was replaced by the newly built large garage in 2nd photo, built in 1946 with a steel structure by Frazers of Hebburn and the large wooden garage doors on photo on Coburn track were made by a joiner called Kitchen from Barnfield Road Spennymoor .In 1946 bricks were rationed and the outside bricks were from Chester Le Street Brickworks with the inner bricks re-claimed which all had to be hand cleaned of old mortar,
In 1973 we built the new haulage depot on the third photograph at Green Lane Industrial Street Spennymoor adjacent to the A1 eventually A167

[carl_williams]

A Facebook friend has coloured and cleaned up this photo of VUP 812L one of our Seddon Pennine (Coach chassis) with Marsden integral pantechnicon body/ It is interesting as it was one of my photos I added to this site about 7 years ago but he recently bought a copy off Ebay. However it was black & white & I must thank him for this colour version

[carl_williams]

Carl Williams:
A Facebook friend has coloured and cleaned up this photo of VUP 812L one of our Seddon Pennine (Coach chassis) with Marsden integral pantechnicon body/ It is interesting as it was one of my photos I added to this site about 7 years ago but he recently bought a copy off Ebay. However it was black & white & I must thank him for this colour version

With the Seddon Pennine Coach chassis what arrived at Marsden was just a pure chassis delivered with a driver sat on a wood box for a seat. No scuttle for Marsden to fix their moulded cab front to. If you notice the sidelights/flasher are sourced from Bedford. They even had to construct the front bumper. So not only was the chassis expensive as compared with a Bedford for example but the bodywork including the cab was a lot more expensive. In fact we could buy 3 Bedford/Marsdens with same size bodies for 2 Seddons. The upside was as coach chassis they were a much better drive and with the front axle set back they had a shorter wheelbase & were much better to manouver into tight spaces. We wanted Seddon to fit Gardiner engines which would have made them more expensive but greatly improved fuel economy & reliability and been money well spent but they said the chassis were’t strong enough so they were fitted with Perkins 6.354 engines, which were more greedy with diesel compared to Bedford 466 or 500 engines and not as reliable (In our use) as the Bedfords. We bought 11 Seddons in total until we returned to buying Bedfords as rigid vans. We did not have the success with Bedford tractor units finding AEC then ERFs although much more expensive cheaper to operate.

[suedehead]

How did you get on with the Bedford 466 engines ?Why not go for the 500.
I am no Carryfast but a lot of operators didnt rate them, compared to the 330.

[carl_williams]

Suedehead:
How did you get on with the Bedford 466 engines ?Why not go for the 500.
I am no Carryfast but a lot of operators didnt rate them, compared to the 330.

We had a lot of 330 which served us very well until we had 2 380 when it was introduced and they were U/S Which worried is about the 466 & hence the choice of the Seddons I think our first first 466 was about L reg the same time as we were putting the Seddons on the road, and the 466 was as reliable as the 330 and 466s running along with Perkins 6.354 produced better fuel consumption and much better engine life, hence our switching back to Bedfords. When the 500 came along it was just an updated 466 and also a very good engine.So we must have had about 70 with 466 or 500 engines.
We bought 5 Bedford TM 26ton GTW tractor units with 500 cu in engines and sadly they did not perform as well as the engine did in our rigids. We eventually discovered that by buying ERFs with Gardner engines at 32Ton GTW (Even though we didn’t need that weight to carry our loads the fuel consumption was so much better and relability made them cheaper to operate ( Even taking into account of the extra capital costs)
The other problem with our artics was driver retention Many of our rigid drivers stayed with us 20-30 years and not many left once they settled down so ERFs with sleeper cabs gave them the comfort level class 3 had in the Marsden Integrals.We has a very mixed fleet of Tractor units Quite a few Ford D800 couple of Mastiff One Bedford TK Dodges with Perkins 6.3534 dot2 which were dreadful several AEC Mercuries & a Mandator V8 Excellent 2 Leyland Super Comets very good 3 New Lynx dreadful from new Foden with Rolls Royce (Very disapointing0 Atkinson & Guy with Gardners excellent The ERFs & a DAF.

Sadly Bedford seemed to be blessed with a type of snobbery where so many considered them an inferior product when in fact they certainly weren’t and we got snide remarks from customers for not running European So our last 10 new rigids we bought were Mercedes and the last Tractor unit we bought was a DAF. Time would have told whether the Mercedes were as good a Bedfords (Or better) but the drivers didn’t like the cabs as much as the large Bedford Marsden Integrals.

[suedehead]

So how did you rate the 466.

[carl_williams]

Suedehead:
So how did you rate the 466.

466 & 500 both very good engines probably best within their price range

[carl_williams]

A photo taking us back to the 1950s showing my Grandfather William Henry Williams in our Garage in Marmaduke Street Spennymoor. These were the days when you parked overnight in a garage and Marmaduke street could accommodate (at a pinch) 9 vans.
The car is my Grandfathers Rover 60 bought new from Fred Dinsdale and son , Rover distributors of Yarm Lane Stockton in 1955, who we had a history going back to 1930s. My grandfather had this car and all subsequent & no doubt previous Rovers washed and polished (Not by him) after each journey, no matter how short.
The van (At least the one that is clearly visible) HTH882 was the youngest of our 3 Petrol Bedford SBs registered in 1953 with bodywork by Spurlings of Edgware a company we had known since 1948 when they exhibited a Bedford O model 5 tonner they had built for us at The 1948 Commercial Motor Show in Earls Court.
Our second had been built by Marsden of Warrington, which was as always an excellent body, but in fairness the Spurling was the Rolls Royce of van bodys built like a battleship and quite well styled. Very modern for its day.
The Garage built 1946 had been built on the huge garden of 14 Marmaduke Street replacing a much smaller one, and going back even further stables.
I suspect from the clear skill of the photo, blacking nearly everything out, it had been taken by me.

[ianto]

If i remember TH was a Carmarthenshire West Wales reg as well as BX a long way from the North East

[carl_williams]

Carl Williams:
A photo taking us back to the 1950s showing my Grandfather William Henry Williams in our Garage in Marmaduke Street Spennymoor. These were the days when you parked overnight in a garage and Marmaduke street could accommodate (at a pinch) 9 vans.
The car is my Grandfathers Rover 60 bought new from Fred Dinsdale and son , Rover distributors of Yarm Lane Stockton in 1955, who we had a history going back to 1930s. My grandfather had this car and all subsequent & no doubt previous Rovers washed and polished (Not by him) after each journey, no matter how short.
The van (At least the one that is clearly visible) HTH882 was the youngest of our 3 Petrol Bedford SBs registered in 1953 with bodywork by Spurlings of Edgware a company we had known since 1948 when they exhibited a Bedford O model 5 tonner they had built for us at The 1948 Commercial Motor Show in Earls Court.
Our second had been built by Marsden of Warrington, which was as always an excellent body, but in fairness the Spurling was the Rolls Royce of van bodys built like a battleship and quite well styled. Very modern for its day.
The Garage built 1946 had been built on the huge garden of 14 Marmaduke Street replacing a much smaller one, and going back even further stables.
I suspect from the clear skill of the photo, blacking nearly everything out, it had been taken by me.

Here is a photo of three of our Rover P4s White Rover 110 My Grandfather had just bought to replace the 60 which was up for sale & my dads 80 Also my first 2000 DUP243B not in the lineup but taken on same day