Rjan:
Bearing in mind that the whole point of the strike is to boycott an employer and ensure that work doesn’t get done until they accept the terms of the workforce, how would you propose that such a bitter strike should have been conducted?
Would you as a single mother of 2 toddlers risk your home for what ultimately turned out to be an extra 20p an hour?
The 2 year campaign was after the strike had “won”. These were people she’d worked with for years but mob mentality and union loyalty took over.
I’d be very surprised if people went on the gate for 3 months over only 20p an hour. Perhaps there was also a principle at stake.
And other workers and their children also suffer hardship and risk their homes - and in fact breaking ranks increases the risk that it may all be for nothing, too. Union organisers in particular bear the risk of victimisation all the time.
That being said, being against unions in principle simply because of the treatment of an individual in one workplace, is rather like being against all wars of self-defence simply because some collaborators have been shot.
It’s precisely because collaboration brings relief for the individual from the extreme hardship which fighting against the enemy causes, that such extreme measures have to be taken against it, however understandable the reasons for collaboration may be in terms of the collaborator’s self-preservation.
That’s why I ask, how else would you propose that a strike be conducted? Returning to work at individual discretion is the one thing that cannot be allowed, since it is the collective refusal to work on which everybody’s interests depend, and if you don’t hang together, you’ll hang separately.
That’s what many parents now find is happening to their children (if not to themselves even) - that they are not suddenly, but nevertheless slowly and increasingly, hanging separately in the labour market.
ezydriver:
I’d love a unionised job once again - the only thing is, there will always be a golden circle of old-timer union boys looking to feather their own nest, who will often be more privileged than newcomers, especially when ‘reshuffles’ and ‘restructures’ are on the cards.
Such cuckoos undermine the solidarity of their own workplace in the end, because they think they can defend their own terms without defending anybody else’s.
Rjan:
Such cuckoos undermine the solidarity of their own workplace in the end, because they think they can defend their own terms without defending anybody else’s.
In my experience, union or no union, people will always break ranks when the going gets tough or for reasons of their own gain. Solidarity was a thing of the 70s when the Strawbs brought out their song. Nowadays Solidarity does not exist amongst the fearful workforce. Union officials are afraid to take on & lose any battles in fear of losing subscribed members which funds their organisation. Unions negotiate deals with management in favour of making them look as though the workforce has won something they would not have otherwise got without them. The union then looks like it has done its job and everyone is quite happy to continue as each feels they have won some small victory.
yourhavingalarf:
we’re a divided bunch now. Just how the gaffers like it.
Aint we just so, have a look on this forum for proof.
And Christ how much do these gaffers like it, …and how they take full advantage of it.
People say how much the dreaded Unions would [zb] the job up, but I think drivers are managing that quite well by themselves with some attitudes and opinions displayed, both on here and in real life.
The man cannot say it clearer folks. Start backing each other up or become minimum wage attendants in the not so distant future…
Start backing each other up? That’s a laugh. Most drivers won’t even stand up for themselves. We’ve three or four union members at our place. They’re the biggest wingers of all of us. Yet they do nothing. When I thought things were unfair, I stood up whilst the drivers who said they’d back me up ran off and hid.
yourhavingalarf:
we’re a divided bunch now. Just how the gaffers like it.
Aint we just so, have a look on this forum for proof.
And Christ how much do these gaffers like it, …and how they take full advantage of it.
People say how much the dreaded Unions would [zb] the job up, but I think drivers are managing that quite well by themselves with some attitudes and opinions displayed, both on here and in real life.
The man cannot say it clearer folks. Start backing each other up or become minimum wage attendants in the not so distant future…
Start backing each other up? That’s a laugh. Most drivers won’t even stand up for themselves. We’ve three or four union members at our place. They’re the biggest wingers of all of us. Yet they do nothing. When I thought things were unfair, I stood up whilst the drivers who said they’d back me up ran off and hid.
Drivers are only human, people learn from mistakes being made, they look for examples to gauge their own dilemma, look at what a great job the unions have done for the miners, they still lost their jobs, coal mining is non existent in this country, look towards the fishing industry in Hull, non existent. Look at ABP and how job losses accrued through a very strong unionised company. Sorry but solidarity amongst the people is the only way, and that will never happen. People have seen what unions can do for them and they are not going to hedge their bets on risking their houses, job & security from a handful of militant workers who will soon crumble at the first hurdle. Unions, Bah humbug.
Rjan:
Such cuckoos undermine the solidarity of their own workplace in the end, because they think they can defend their own terms without defending anybody else’s.
In my experience, union or no union, people will always break ranks when the going gets tough or for reasons of their own gain. Solidarity was a thing of the 70s when the Strawbs brought out their song. Nowadays Solidarity does not exist amongst the fearful workforce. Union officials are afraid to take on & lose any battles in fear of losing subscribed members which funds their organisation. Unions negotiate deals with management in favour of making them look as though the workforce has won something they would not have otherwise got without them. The union then looks like it has done its job and everyone is quite happy to continue as each feels they have won some small victory.
If workers are so afraid, why are many of them voting Tory for austerity and anti-union legislation, or aligning with right-wing loons in Ukip and similar?
I’m not sure workers are always merely cowed by the bosses. Many of them fail to appreciate that they are being treated as cattle, or if they do, they accept political narratives that justify it. That’s not fear, but stupidity.
Rjan:
If workers are so afraid, why are many of them voting Tory for austerity and anti-union legislation, or aligning with right-wing loons in Ukip and similar?
I’m not sure workers are always merely cowed by the bosses. Many of them fail to appreciate that they are being treated as cattle.
Of course I am generalising in my statement, one size doesn’t fit all in any circumstance. In general terms, people do not stick together on anything and especially so when not everyone agrees on the agenda. If you are not in agreeance with strike action to begin with but simply go along with the majority vote, the few that are not fully committed will find it easier to convince those that are to change their minds once the going gets tough, also when the going gets tough, those that voted for strike action, a percentage of them will change their minds which can quickly escalate to them becoming the majority. Look towards Brexit for this as an example.
20 quid seems a bit steep tbh but have a look or ask what other benefits you get, we gt things like a cheap interest rate credit card, free financial advice, healthcare, schemes like cheaper glasses, dental work ect… So does need some thought… Unions are god at a local levels which seems to be the case here, but they are only as strong as the membership too, and wether some on here like or not, no way even if the whole industry was unionised would things change on the scale that some think or hope they will…
dle1uk:
20 quid seems a bit steep tbh but have a look or ask what other benefits you get, we gt things like a cheap interest rate credit card, free financial advice, healthcare, schemes like cheaper glasses, dental work ect… So does need some thought… Unions are god at a local levels which seems to be the case here, but they are only as strong as the membership too, and wether some on here like or not, no way even if the whole industry was unionised would things change on the scale that some think or hope they will…
I agree, for £20 , it sounds more like BUPA than a union membership. Why does a union have to offer these enticements to join it in the first place. By offering cheap glasses and free financial advice, Spec savers and citizens advice is on offer without being a union member.
dle1uk:
20 quid seems a bit steep tbh but have a look or ask what other benefits you get, we gt things like a cheap interest rate credit card, free financial advice, healthcare, schemes like cheaper glasses, dental work ect… So does need some thought… Unions are god at a local levels which seems to be the case here, but they are only as strong as the membership too, and wether some on here like or not, no way even if the whole industry was unionised would things change on the scale that some think or hope they will…
I agree, for £20 , it sounds more like BUPA than a union membership. Why does a union have to offer these enticements to join it in the first place. By offering cheap glasses and free financial advice, Spec savers and citizens advice is on offer without being a union member.
The glasses,dental stuff, basically we paid a couple of quid a month and got 75% of glasses, eye tests ect and dental work, so did save us a few ££…
The other thing that no one as mentioned, the Unions didnt lose their power, they gradually gave it away whilst negotiating other things that to the the memberships at the time were more important…
UKtramp:
The subs are the most important thing to the officials, like votes for an MP.
Indeed, but you don’t have to be in a union to be solid. Too many people approach unions as being like an insurance policy.
Like £10 a month means “I won’t lose my job” - when really the nub of not losing your job, is the willingness of colleagues to take industrial action to prevent it, and your willingness to take industrial action to prevent others from losing their jobs (even when yours is not immediately threatened).
Or £10 a month means “I’ll get a pay rise worth more than the subs” - again, the real basis on which a pay rise is gained, is industrial action if an agreeable pay rise is not forthcoming.
You pay for the bureaucracy in order to facilitate your own organisation, and because it gives legitimacy to certain industrial actions you might take as a result of solidarity, like striking.
If that collective consciousness and solidarity is absent in your workplace, then you might as well burn your tenner a month.
UKtramp:
The subs are the most important thing to the officials, like votes for an MP.
Indeed, but you don’t have to be in a union to be solid. Too many people approach unions as being like an insurance policy.
Like £10 a month means “I won’t lose my job” - when really the nub of not losing your job, is the willingness of colleagues to take industrial action to prevent it, and your willingness to take industrial action to prevent others from losing their jobs (even when yours is not immediately threatened).
Or £10 a month means “I’ll get a pay rise worth more than the subs” - again, the real basis on which a pay rise is gained, is industrial action if an agreeable pay rise is not forthcoming.
You pay for the bureaucracy in order to facilitate your own organisation, and because it gives legitimacy to certain industrial actions you might take as a result of solidarity, like striking.
If that collective consciousness and solidarity is absent in your workplace, then you might as well burn your tenner a month.
My point in a nutshell, not against the unions or their ideals, just not subscribing to the mindset of the insurance policy they would like you to think you are getting.
What seems to happen is that the union push and push for more and more until the company gets fed up, phones ES and asks them to come in and discuss contracting the whole job out. Tesco anyone?
When I was given my first job as a TM the drivers were all out on strike over some trivial night out allowance increase. The T&G had Birmingham sewn up in those days and I even had to use them if I needed an agency driver to cover a holiday. Of course, it all imploded eventually.
In my experience shop stewards were either on the make, or too stupid to say no when someone nominated them.
Now I’m a union man
Amazed at what I am
I say what I think
That the company stinks
Yes I’m a union man.
Oh you don’t get me I’m part of the union
You don’t get me I’m part of the union
You don’t get me I’m part of the union
Till the day I die, till the day I die.
Santa:
What seems to happen is that the union push and push for more and more until the company gets fed up, phones ES and asks them to come in and discuss contracting the whole job out. Tesco anyone?
When I was given my first job as a TM the drivers were all out on strike over some trivial night out allowance increase. The T&G had Birmingham sewn up in those days and I even had to use them if I needed an agency driver to cover a holiday. Of course, it all imploded eventually.
In my experience shop stewards were either on the make, or too stupid to say no when someone nominated them.
Now I’m a union man
Amazed at what I am
I say what I think
That the company stinks
Yes I’m a union man.
Oh you don’t get me I’m part of the union
You don’t get me I’m part of the union
You don’t get me I’m part of the union
Till the day I die, till the day I die.
Wise words in 1973. Nowadays they will get you if your part of the union.
I’ve said before on other “Union” threads that my £3.30wk subs:
I’m approx £25k better off in my bank account via Union help on equal pay/TUPE/with-holding wages after leaving and industrial injury matters.
They are currently backing me ref the 12wk Av holiday pay thing but it will be “settled” in the short term.
Can’t fault them for “help” ref above when required!!! [emoji106]
Santa:
When I was given my first job as a TM the drivers were all out on strike over some trivial night out allowance increase. .
So if it was THAT ‘trivial’ why let it escalate to that stage, if it was THAT trivial, why not just grant them it… or at very least make a compromising offer to them.
Works both ways mate, you and/or your co. obviously thought that the ‘trivial increase’ was in fact as important to you as it was to the drivers.
So evidently not so trivial.
When I had my trucks my drivers did not need a union as I looked after them. I was in my 20s, they were all older than me and I treated them as grown ups.
The co I worked for 10 yrs also did not need a union as we were also looked after.
The only firms that do need a union from the driver’s point of view, are the tight arsed tight fisted ones who treat their drivers as numbers,… otherwise known as most UK haulage co.s today…
Rjan:
If workers are so afraid, why are many of them aligning with right-wing loons in Ukip and similar?
Probably for the same reason that the so called ‘left’ are aligning themselves with the CBI and bankers by supporting the Blairites and Thatcerites in wanting to maintain the status quo of British jobs for German and East Euro workers and being governed by a locally unelected elitist rabble like Juncker and Merkel.
IE the issues of whether we’re better off as a subjugated province of the EUSSR super state transcend so called ‘left’ v so called ‘right’ and Farage is certainly a better choice in that regard than bleedin Blair and his banker class cronies.Just as Shore,Benn and Powell were all better choices than Heath,Callaghan,Jenkins and their later allies Blair and Thatcher.
robroy:
The only firms that do need a union from the driver’s point of view, are the tight arsed tight fisted ones who treat their drivers as numbers,… otherwise known as most UK haulage co.s today…
What can a union do against that though rob, so long as they are paying the NMW and you take the job knowing that, what do you do. You can’t go on strike for better terms and conditions, you either don’t take the job in the first place or get another job. A union will only step in if they break any laws or it is deemed unreasonable of them, what nowadays is deemed as unreasonable to ask a driver to do when they keep working for these outfits. Not a union required it is the drivers attitudes that need to change. The employers can change your terms and conditions if they see fit to do it, simply by giving you at least 30 days written notice. Not a thing can be done about it, strike action is not usually an option as the employer simply hires in drivers from an agency to cover you whilst your stood with your sign at the gates asking for better T&Cs. Try to stop the agency workers entering or leaving and the police arrive and hand you a hefty fine.
UKtramp:
Try to stop the agency workers entering or leaving and the police arrive and hand you a hefty fine.
You do know that the purpose of a picket line is about winning hearts and minds not confrontation and conflict.At that point the responsibility is on the ‘agency’ workers to make the choice between being a scab,thereby letting down the working class as a whole,or turning away and/or preferably voluntarily joining those on the picket line for a cup of tea and sandwiches.Bearing in mind that choosing the scab option will eventually come back to bite them in undermining their own terms and conditions.
