Bj63:
No organisation should be able to influence the independent decision to work legally. Just because We’re not in their “club” its a joke! And actually I don’t mind the other work!
BMA and Bar Association are 2 closed shops, ■■■■ commies trying to restrict my choice of medical practitioner or barrister to members of their club.
I’m reminded of Groucho Marx (how appropriate a name) and wouldn’t want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member.
Juddian:
Just a point to make, i didn’t mention shop stewards, but now they’ve been mentioned i will comment.You can trawl any of my posts on the subject of unions and i’ve made the same comment umpteen times, no doubt boring the arse off many.
The most important decision you will make as union member is your choice of steward.
There are good bad indifferent and once in a while corrupt ones, so choose wisely, most are good IMO.A good steward wears two hats, whilst acting in the interests of the members he/she sometimes has to slip the disciplinary style hat on in order to prevent idiotic members spoiling the job for everyone including themselves, this might mean bollocking an idiot instead of it becoming a company disciplinary, sensible members appreciate it once things have cooled down even if they might resent it at the time if its them.
I’ve only ever worked at one job where collusion between stewards and management was rife to the detriment of the vast majority of the drivers, it was a job i was glad to leave, and it’s still crap after umpteen name changes.
Hi Juddian.
I understand your point about shop stewards " policing " the conduct of the workforce so as to avoid management involvement,but unions aside who hasn’t said in a polite and friendly way to a mate that what he’s doing is perhaps not a good idea and would reflect on the rest of us if the gaffer finds out. If met by the usual responce of " mind your own business ", I think most of us would do just that " as you just can’t help some people.
My question is,if the bloke then gets caught and is called to a disiplinary meeting how does the steward deal with it? The bloke will most likely say its your job to " get me off " I’ve paid my dues. A defence solicitor is paid to “get people off” and everyone knows how sincere they are,and after,they go on to the next job. The shop steward however,has to defend the “indefencible” and risk all credibility with management,or does he later explain to them he wasn’t really on the blokes side,but just doing what he was elected to do?
Regards. John.
old 67:
Juddian:
Just a point to make, i didn’t mention shop stewards, but now they’ve been mentioned i will comment.You can trawl any of my posts on the subject of unions and i’ve made the same comment umpteen times, no doubt boring the arse off many.
The most important decision you will make as union member is your choice of steward.
There are good bad indifferent and once in a while corrupt ones, so choose wisely, most are good IMO.A good steward wears two hats, whilst acting in the interests of the members he/she sometimes has to slip the disciplinary style hat on in order to prevent idiotic members spoiling the job for everyone including themselves, this might mean bollocking an idiot instead of it becoming a company disciplinary, sensible members appreciate it once things have cooled down even if they might resent it at the time if its them.
I’ve only ever worked at one job where collusion between stewards and management was rife to the detriment of the vast majority of the drivers, it was a job i was glad to leave, and it’s still crap after umpteen name changes.
Hi Juddian.
I understand your point about shop stewards " policing " the conduct of the workforce so as to avoid management involvement,but unions aside who hasn’t said in a polite and friendly way to a mate that what he’s doing is perhaps not a good idea and would reflect on the rest of us if the gaffer finds out. If met by the usual responce of " mind your own business ", I think most of us would do just that " as you just can’t help some people.
My question is,if the bloke then gets caught and is called to a disiplinary meeting how does the steward deal with it? The bloke will most likely say its your job to " get me off " I’ve paid my dues. A defence solicitor is paid to “get people off” and everyone knows how sincere they are,and after,they go on to the next job. The shop steward however,has to defend the “indefencible” and risk all credibility with management,or does he later explain to them he wasn’t really on the blokes side,but just doing what he was elected to do?
Regards. John.
Fair point mate, in practice anyone who’s stupid enough to carry on being a twit when a shop steward has had a word in his shell like, and unable to accept an unrecorded friendly warning, is heading for the exit sooner or later.
Most of its common sense, upper management don’t want the hassle of day to day indiscretions, so long as the job gets done with as few accidents sickies and problems as possible most of the time they stay in their offices and leave things alone, win win all round, last thing you want is management poke nosing.
I’m sure that you or me or the vast majority of drivers in good jobs would, despite maybe being annoyed at the time, think about what was said and then in due course when we got our sensible heads back on, quietly thank the steward for the heads up and for keeping us out of the ‘system’ and from under management’s microscope.
Most companies with a bit of nous have the good sense to leave minor crap to the steward (comparable to a good NCO in many ways), far better for everyone if someone with the good of the job at heart nips developing problems in the bud.
Most stewards (even us plebs) realise that an unprofitable poorly run job ruined by ■■■■ takers isn’t going to last, its in all our interests, company, unions, stewards and member workers for good jobs to last.
sweepster:
It will be legally binding by agreement’s agreed between the Union and the company.
No it won’t because it was outlawed in 1990. You can put whatever you want on a contract but it cannot overrule statutory law.
I think unions can be a good thing, buy it all depends on where they they operate, a car plant is one example where they can negotiate good and proper conditions, however, in our industry when I first started we had no choice, and employers went along with it for fear of being blacklisted, at the docs a stewards would be in attendance, and would check your card to 1. make sure you were in a union. 2. make sure your subs were up to date. When The iron lady came into view, she had more run ins with unions than Ive had hot dinners, and so she was more than determined to finish their rule over government issues, and she did, which gave most unions no clout, and its members barely a say, except within its own confines. A good mate of mine became a steward, then worked his way up to be within the union itself, he was given a car, a company credit card, stayed in good hotels with even a bar bill being paid, then all of his clothing was paid for, nice suits, shirts, even underwear and socks, and the members paid for it, then we had the Royal Mail whose members went out on strike, when they asked for strike pay, they were told Sorry, theres no money in the potThe majority of members on here, are reluctant to join a union, sadly, I have always envisaged it as the biggest workforce in the country, with a lot of power, to bring the country to its knees if needed, to get the things this industry needs, but no one is interested, but merely just wants to be left alone to his/her own devices, yet will continue to moan about lack of services, parking places, security, wages etc etc without looking at the benefits of being in a union, this word alone means toUnite` to belong to something that thousands of others belong to, a sense of longing if you like, but with the security of knowing help is at hand should you need it.
As for the original post, you got this work as a new job, maybe the previous haulier was unionised but his prices were a bit ott, and the company terminated his contract, and therefore the union would only work with union members, which is why your company didn’t get a foot in the door, or get to work on that new contract, just my thought on it.
the unions are a disgrace in this country especially the docks royal mail etc (and yes i have supported all by refusing to cross a picket line), but why should someone higher qualified not be given a job because the shop stewards thick son wants in?
i can recall the liverpool dockers sat by the fire protesting for years after being dismissed, royal mail have tried to fight change for years and all it has done is allowed other to come in and nick the work or at least some of it, ship building has gone the coal industry is almost gone the car industry is far from what it should be (nissan not included).
yes lets all join a union and get such a better deal.
Sidevalve:
When I first started driving after leaving the Army, I used to do a fair bit of agency work for BRS, and in those days that was a closed shop so I had to pay me subs to the T&GWU as it then was.I don’t approve of closed shops for the simple reason that despite what Juddian says, the system is open to abuse by the shop stewards just as much as a non-unionised set-up is open to abuse by unscrupulous employers. Nobody wins.
Having said that I am in a union now. A few years ago I had a bit of a personal difference with a supervisor, and my job was on the line; I wasn’t a union member then. Our shop steward volunteered to attend my disciplinary, spoke for me and but for him I could easily have been out of a job, with a stain on my work record. As a point of honour I joined the union forthwith; I pay my subs by direct debit and view it as “job insurance”. If I have any issues with my managers, I simply suggest that I will refer the matter back to the shop steward; I cannot be sure if it always makes a difference but I suspect on occasion it might.
Unions have their uses provided that they limit their activities to working for the benefit of their members, which of course is what they are set up to do. There will always, of course, be idiots like McCluskey around who think that being the boss of a union gives them the chance to run the country, but in reality they do themselves no favours, and today’s union members are smart enough to see through their pretensions.
! thing that annoys me is when a non union member seeks help from the rep and then joins the union!
I’ve worked for a couple of ‘closed shop’ places in my time. Swifts many years ago had the main Ford contract and Ford of course insisted we carried union cards, I had to join the TGWU. At Tesco I was told I had to join their union, the ‘United shop workers union’ LOL, which it turned out was run by Tesco which is a joke, what’s the point of a union that is controlled by the company ? I instead joined the ‘United road transport’ union which is smaller than TGWU but had actually helped people I know. Tesco couldn’t argue because I had joined ‘A UNION’ lol.
All most unions do is take your money and give you nothing, they are far worse on this side of the Atlantic because they are mostly mob run.
If you want a union for national issues do not bother - the thatcher laws are still in force today
If you want a union for personal issues then join a good one who will do this
I found URTU great
! thing that annoys me is when a non union member seeks help from the rep and then joins the union!
In fairness, Sidevalve wrote that the steward volunteered to mediate.
This is quite common as it gives the steward an opportunity to show the non member the benefits of joining. many do join in this kind of scenario.
The ones I always detested are the ones who slag of the unions all the time but are always there when there is a pay rise/ benefit increase and then continue to bad mouth them.
It probably isn’t much to do with the unions IMO , the work is all tendered for beforehand. Jlr prob just had more cars to move than the regular companies could do so asked in extra help to cover the short fall, are u sure your place wasn’t doing it sub contract to another firm.
not many communists left in UK
Conor:
sweepster:
It will be legally binding by agreement’s agreed between the Union and the company.No it won’t because it was outlawed in 1990. You can put whatever you want on a contract but it cannot overrule statutory law.
We have agreement’s in place that ARE legally binding, so it cannot be outlawed as you say?
royalmailgroup.com/royal-mai … -principle
This was agreed a while back.
I think Conor was referring to the closed shop kind of status , which as he says is illegal and cannot be included in a works/union agreement.
A company cannot MAKE its workers join a union,nor can they refuse someone employment on the grounds that they are not in a union, nor can they STOP a worker joining a union.
To join or not is the workers own decision.
del949:
I think Conor was referring to the closed shop kind of status , which as he says is illegal and cannot be included in a works/union agreement.
A company cannot MAKE its workers join a union,nor can they refuse someone employment on the grounds that they are not in a union, nor can they STOP a worker joining a union.
To join or not is the workers own decision.
I understand what you’re saying, but Conor answered my statement that had nothing to do with a closed shop.
del949:
I think Conor was referring to the closed shop kind of status , which as he says is illegal and cannot be included in a works/union agreement.
A company cannot MAKE its workers join a union,nor can they refuse someone employment on the grounds that they are not in a union, nor can they STOP a worker joining a union.
To join or not is the workers own decision.
I understand what you’re saying, but Conor answered my statement that had nothing to do with a closed shop.
truckyboy:
The majority of members on here, are reluctant to join a union, sadly, I have always envisaged it as the biggest workforce in the country, with a lot of power, to bring the country to its knees if needed, to get the things this industry needs, but no one is interested, but merely just wants to be left alone to his/her own devices, yet will continue to moan about lack of services, parking places, security, wages etc etc without looking at the benefits of being in a union, this word alone means toUniteto belong to something that thousands of others belong to, a sense of longing if you like, but with the security of knowing help is at hand should you need it.
At one end of the spectrum you have drivers happily working for local councils where you do your 7am to 2.30pm job and then go home to spend quality time with your family and receive a perfectly adequate wage at the end of every week. At the other end of the spectrum you have your glory boy big billy bigrig truckers who see no issue with sleeping in a tin box 5 nights per week doing 80hrs for a monkey so long as the truck is a Scania V8 with a ‘SUPER’ badge and has 10 spot lights bolted to the front.
The first lot think the second lot are off their rockers and vv. That’s why a union for drivers will never work.
That’s why it won’t work to amalgamate all driving company’s. Each company on it’s own need’s to be Unionised.
sweepster:
That’s why it won’t work to amalgamate all driving company’s.
That would depend on the question of wether a union can ever be too strong.The economy shows that weak unions mean low wages and an economy to match.In this case it’s all about stopping the issue of undercutting of wages being used to create a competitive edge.
youtube.com/watch?v=2qGPYx_-si0
3.55-5.05