Trucker's Future post-Brexit

rob22888:
Try to seek out hard facts & evidence that supports the idea that Brexit will benefit this country on the whole & improve the lives of those living here and it’s depressing how lacking they are.

Hard facts and evidence may be lacking at present but what about the next 40 years
UK being forced into the euro.
Our armed forces being merged with the rest of europes forces.
Our treasury being replaced by a central treasury in Brussels to which we will pay our taxes to and they will set our tax rates which will most likely be higher than we’re paying now.
Interest rates being set at a level which are ideal for France & Germany but maybe not for us.
Great Britain will become just another zone of the European Union.
It will all happen sometime in the future if we stay in and I wonder what the remainers will say then.

Carryfast:

Franglais:
So, as we keep asking how do we seperate the UK, (NI) from the EU (Eire)?
UK equal with NI.
NI equal with Eire
Eire equal with France.
France NOT equal with UK.

Answer that and you’ll win the Nobel Prize for Topography!

Feel free to explain how NI has been ‘equal’ with Eire since 1921 ?.So tell us exactly when did the Anglo Irish treaty seperating Ulster from Eire,cease to be in effect ?.

Or for that matter under what legal basis does a non declared de Jure,let alone Internationally recognised De Facto,state in the form of the non country of the EU,have the right to designate a border in its own right ?.IE there can be no EU border because there is no such even de Jure country/state of the EU but there is two seperate internationally recognised de Facto states in the form of Eire and UK since 1920.It’s then up to the two seperate recognised countries to decide their border arrangements not the bleedin EU and if Eire wishes to isolate itself from the UK by tearing up the established agreements like the CTA between the two countries then,as Bewick rightly says,go for it.The fact is the EU is scared of the Irish situation because it is the proof that the EU is just a stinking rogue wannabee Federal state but with no legal basis to claim statehood and which hopefully never will have.

Given this is an Internet Forum, I thought anyone who wished to understand my point, whether or not they agreed, could do so from the short posting I made. I suspect you well understand I was talking about equality concerning customs, rights of entry etc without listing details. Since you are choosing to argue about any slack use of language I surmise you have no argument about the underlying idea.

“if Eire wishes to isolate itself from the UK by tearing up the established agreements like the CTA between the two countries”
Eire uses the UK as a land bridgeto the EU. It is the UK that is leaving the existing agreements (within the EU) regarding free movement between the two countries. We are making life harder for them.

As you say the EU is NOT a country. The way member states administer their borders is discussed within the EU, sure, but it clearly isnt the EU that determines a countrys external borders.
The UK and France are well known to have immigration officers in each other`s countries as part of a Bi-Lateral agreement. Schengen is a multi national agreement, largely made of EU countries, that the UK is not in, but some non-EU countries are in.

A ■■■■ sight quicker than 40 years. The EU have already said that if the UK wishes to remain as part of the EU it must sign up to the European Armed Forces, Shengen ie no border controls, the Migration Pact, and integration of security and financial systems beforehand!

All EU member states must have the Euro as their currency by 2025 but the UK must agree to have the Euro operating as their currency before the end of 2022.

And to cap it all the rebate we negotiated will cease.

wing-nut:

rob22888:
Try to seek out hard facts & evidence that supports the idea that Brexit will benefit this country on the whole & improve the lives of those living here and it’s depressing how lacking they are.

Hard facts and evidence may be lacking at present but what about the next 40 years
UK being forced into the euro.
Our armed forces being merged with the rest of europes forces.
Our treasury being replaced by a central treasury in Brussels to which we will pay our taxes to and they will set our tax rates which will most likely be higher than we’re paying now.
Interest rates being set at a level which are ideal for France & Germany but maybe not for us.
Great Britain will become just another zone of the European Union.
It will all happen sometime in the future if we stay in and I wonder what the remainers will say then.

Ignoring the clear incongruity between your words in red…

The pound?
As part of a strong trading group the pound will more likely remain stronger. When we leave it will most likely become weaker. Keeping a strong economy is most likely to keep the pound longer! Not the other way around.
And I may be different to others, I dont much care if the electric figures in my bank account are measured in £ $ or €. So long as I get a fair amount for my work, Im OK with that. Staying in a strong free trade group is better than spending my hard earned electrons on tariffs!

I cant see a compulsory Eu Army in my lifetime. If it came I reckon it would be a good thing. The British Army has proud English, Scots and Welsh regiments. They retain their historic associations, and none of us today can imagine them fighting each other, can we? But historically they would have been foes. I look forward to a time when we look at our Euro neighbours and dont see a bunch of strange people, we should be afraid of, who we need to protect ourselves from. Most of us don`t think like that, and not all leavers do of course, but there is a noisy minority who seem to live in a post WW2 time warp.

Again I cant see taxes being centralised in my life time. And is there any evidence at all to suggest they would be higher rather than lower under Brussels rather than London? If so, I would be well in favour, and vote for that today. I want better hospitals, schools, roads, policing. I dont believe any stories from politicians about how we will get a better country without investing in our future. Do you really think low taxes are the be-all and end-all of life?

If as you suggest we ended up in the Euro zone, with centralized taxation then clearly any tax rates would apply equally well to France Germany and the UK, since we would all be in the same boat. No accusations of favouritism to one or other party, we would all sink or swim according to our merits.
And if you believe we are intelligent, hard workers why wouldn`t we do well on such a level playing field?

Franglais:

Carryfast:

Franglais:
So, as we keep asking how do we seperate the UK, (NI) from the EU (Eire)?
UK equal with NI.
NI equal with Eire
Eire equal with France.
France NOT equal with UK.

Answer that and you’ll win the Nobel Prize for Topography!

Feel free to explain how NI has been ‘equal’ with Eire since 1921 ?.So tell us exactly when did the Anglo Irish treaty seperating Ulster from Eire,cease to be in effect ?.

Or for that matter under what legal basis does a non declared de Jure,let alone Internationally recognised De Facto,state in the form of the non country of the EU,have the right to designate a border in its own right ?.IE there can be no EU border because there is no such even de Jure country/state of the EU but there is two seperate internationally recognised de Facto states in the form of Eire and UK since 1920.It’s then up to the two seperate recognised countries to decide their border arrangements not the bleedin EU and if Eire wishes to isolate itself from the UK by tearing up the established agreements like the CTA between the two countries then,as Bewick rightly says,go for it.The fact is the EU is scared of the Irish situation because it is the proof that the EU is just a stinking rogue wannabee Federal state but with no legal basis to claim statehood and which hopefully never will have.

Given this is an Internet Forum, I thought anyone who wished to understand my point, whether or not they agreed, could do so from the short posting I made. I suspect you well understand I was talking about equality concerning customs, rights of entry etc without listing details. Since you are choosing to argue about any slack use of language I surmise you have no argument about the underlying idea.

“if Eire wishes to isolate itself from the UK by tearing up the established agreements like the CTA between the two countries”
Eire uses the UK as a land bridgeto the EU. It is the UK that is leaving the existing agreements (within the EU) regarding free movement between the two countries. We are making life harder for them.

As you say the EU is NOT a country. The way member states administer their borders is discussed within the EU, sure, but it clearly isnt the EU that determines a countrys external borders.
The UK and France are well known to have immigration officers in each other`s countries as part of a Bi-Lateral agreement. Schengen is a multi national agreement, largely made of EU countries, that the UK is not in, but some non-EU countries are in.

Which part of,unlike the EU,two seperate internationally recognised de Facto countries which obviously includes the right to set their own independent taxes and bilateral customs regulations and trade movement arrangements,just as was the case between 1921-1973,didn’t you understand.While we’re agreed that the EU isn’t a country and therefore doesn’t have any automatic right to designate a border in its own right.

So Eire uses the UK as a land bridge to the EU yes just as it did before 1973 so what in view of all the above.IE bearing in mind the EU isn’t a ‘country’ with any border of its own and in which just because Eire chooses to harmonise certain taxes etc in line with EU regulations for itself obviously has no connection whatsoever with a non EU aligned UK nor any supposed bs EU ‘border’.

Franglais:
Ignoring the clear incongruity between your words in red…

The pound?
As part of a strong trading group the pound will more likely remain stronger. When we leave it will most likely become weaker. Keeping a strong economy is most likely to keep the pound longer! Not the other way around.
And I may be different to others, I dont much care if the electric figures in my bank account are measured in £ $ or €. So long as I get a fair amount for my work, Im OK with that. Staying in a strong free trade group is better than spending my hard earned electrons on tariffs!

I cant see a compulsory Eu Army in my lifetime. If it came I reckon it would be a good thing. The British Army has proud English, Scots and Welsh regiments. They retain their historic associations, and none of us today can imagine them fighting each other, can we? But historically they would have been foes. I look forward to a time when we look at our Euro neighbours and dont see a bunch of strange people, we should be afraid of, who we need to protect ourselves from. Most of us don`t think like that, and not all leavers do of course, but there is a noisy minority who seem to live in a post WW2 time warp.

Again I cant see taxes being centralised in my life time. And is there any evidence at all to suggest they would be higher rather than lower under Brussels rather than London? If so, I would be well in favour, and vote for that today. I want better hospitals, schools, roads, policing. I dont believe any stories from politicians about how we will get a better country without investing in our future. Do you really think low taxes are the be-all and end-all of life?

If as you suggest we ended up in the Euro zone, with centralized taxation then clearly any tax rates would apply equally well to France Germany and the UK, since we would all be in the same boat. No accusations of favouritism to one or other party, we would all sink or swim according to our merits.
And if you believe we are intelligent, hard workers why wouldn`t we do well on such a level playing field?

A European army will weaken Europe’s security at the end of WW2 European leaders said never again well never again unless it means deploying force to stop it, it was an American lead initiative that brought peace to the Balkans while European leaders looked on. Only the UK and France have the stomach for deploying troops and taking causalities read the book ‘No Way Out’ about a British deployment in Afghanistan, the UK’s troops replaced a lightly armoured Danish company because the Taliban increased their numbers in the area and said they would attack the Danes, the Danish government didn’t want causalities and so withdrew, or read about the Dutch at Srebrenica who stood and watched as men and boys were lead away to be massacred.

The bickering about who should be in charge would be endless, senior appointments would be made for political reasons and not who was best for the job,ego’swould have to be massaged a prime example being the the trips the EU parliament take to Strasbourg each month solely undertaken as willy waving exercise to stop the French from sulking

Mazzer2:
A European army will weaken Europe’s security at the end of WW2 European leaders said never again well never again unless it means deploying force to stop it, it was an American lead initiative that brought peace to the Balkans while European leaders looked on. Only the UK and France have the stomach for deploying troops and taking causalities read the book ‘No Way Out’ about a British deployment in Afghanistan, the UK’s troops replaced a lightly armoured Danish company because the Taliban increased their numbers in the area and said they would attack the Danes, the Danish government didn’t want causalities and so withdrew, or read about the Dutch at Srebrenica who stood and watched as men and boys were lead away to be massacred.

The bickering about who should be in charge would be endless, senior appointments would be made for political reasons and not who was best for the job,ego’swould have to be massaged a prime example being the the trips the EU parliament take to Strasbourg each month solely undertaken as willy waving exercise to stop the French from sulking

Assuming youre correct for the moment "Only the UK and France have the stomach for deploying troops and taking causalities", do we in the UK have a large enough force to do that on the world stage anymore? As part of NATO we have some clout still, and as part of a Euro army wouldnt that continue? What scope do we have at the moment for truly independent action, and how would that change?
And to argue with the statement about the Dutch werent they part of a UN force? Maybe a UK commander on the ground would have interpreted the rules differently? Quite possibly. But does one incident, however awful, make for good judgment on an entire army? Political control of armed forces? Hasnt it always been so?
Would any Eu partners have OKed us being a Blairite poodle of the US? Might have been a good thing surely?

The Danes in Afganistan? I know nowt, but if you recommend “No Way Out”, I`ll look on Amazon.

Carryfast:
Which part of,unlike the EU,two seperate internationally recognised de Facto countries which obviously includes the right to set their own independent taxes and bilateral customs regulations and trade movement arrangements,just as was the case between 1921-1973,didn’t you understand.While we’re agreed that the EU isn’t a country and therefore doesn’t have any automatic right to designate a border in its own right.

So Eire uses the UK as a land bridge to the EU yes just as it did before 1973 so what in view of all the above.IE bearing in mind the EU isn’t a ‘country’ with any border of its own and in which just because Eire chooses to harmonise certain taxes etc in line with EU regulations for itself obviously has no connection whatsoever with a non EU aligned UK nor any supposed bs EU ‘border’.

Before 1972 the UK and Eire were in the Anglo_Irish treaty which effectively put us in the SAME customs zone.
Since 1972 the UK and Eire as members of the EU are in the SAME customs zone.
Post Brexit (depending on deals) the UK and Eire will be in DIFFERENT customs zones.

As members of the EU, Eire, or any member, cannot be in a bi-lateral trade deal with the UK, or anyone else.
You are of course fully entitle to dislike that aspect of the Eu set-up, and you may want us to leave because of this, but arguing it doesn`t exist is foolish.

Franglais, me and you are diametrically opposed in our thoughts and beliefs regarding the EU but it has been interesting reading your thoughts. Makes a change to read of why someone sees opportunity in the EU instead of having it rammed down my throat why I’m wrong for not seeing that opportunity.

Stanley Knife:
A ■■■■ sight quicker than 40 years. The EU have already said that if the UK wishes to remain as part of the EU it must sign up to the European Armed Forces, Shengen ie no border controls, the Migration Pact, and integration of security and financial systems beforehand!

All EU member states must have the Euro as their currency by 2025 but the UK must agree to have the Euro operating as their currency before the end of 2022.

And to cap it all the rebate we negotiated will cease.

I believe the end of the rebate was agreed before we voted to leave.

All EU countries joining the Euro was also a plan under the Maastricht Treaty and one of the reasons the Danish people voted against it and were given assurances they wouldn’t have to adopt the Euro was one of the reasons they voted “yes” in a second referendum.
Since then the views of the people and more importantly political organisations with power have hardened against more EU integration, can’t see Poland giving up the zloty easily or Denmark and Sweden giving up their respective currencies.

I also think the EU is going to have many more problems, with European Parliament elections in 2019 likely to deliver even more anti EU MEP’s, elections for the next EU president could also prove divisive, as each group in the European Parliament puts forward a candidate, with the council of ministers then voting for who they want as President, could be a battle with the Visegrád Group, Italy and Austria refusing to vote for any integrationist candidate, and with Merkel and now Macron both politically damaged at home, they probably don’t have the political clout they once had in the EU.

Of course the history of EU treaties which change the relationship with sovereign nations and the lack of say in referendums for the people of those countries and the way that the President and commissioners are appointed are some of the democratic deficits that I have an issue with about EU membership, but is probably what many politicians love about it.

Stanley Knife:
Franglais, me and you are diametrically opposed in our thoughts and beliefs regarding the EU but it has been interesting reading your thoughts. Makes a change to read of why someone sees opportunity in the EU instead of having it rammed down my throat why I’m wrong for not seeing that opportunity.

You and others are putting across good, interesting points all the time, mate.
Although I tend to argue only one point of view, I do accept the EU is far from perfect. But enough others point to the faults, so I dont need to! I read yours and other`s posts but remain unconvinced that leaving will benefit us. It could of course, I certainly hope so!

Franglais:
The pound?
As part of a strong trading group the pound will more likely remain stronger. When we leave it will most likely become weaker. Keeping a strong economy is most likely to keep the pound longer! Not the other way around.
And I may be different to others, I dont much care if the electric figures in my bank account are measured in £ $ or €. So long as I get a fair amount for my work, Im OK with that. Staying in a strong free trade group is better than spending my hard earned electrons on tariffs!

I’m not totally linked to having a pound, as long as I can spend it you can call it what you like, but during the financial collapse the independence of Sterling gave us a lot more tools than countries in the Eurozone to help the economy, a single currency could work, but only with total integration, I remember listening to various fincial experts at the time of it’s introduction, some saying Britain must join to save the City of London and others saying it was a problem in the making having countries with such different economies tie themselves into the restrictions of a single currency.

Franglais:
I cant see a compulsory Eu Army in my lifetime. If it came I reckon it would be a good thing. The British Army has proud English, Scots and Welsh regiments. They retain their historic associations, and none of us today can imagine them fighting each other, can we? But historically they would have been foes. I look forward to a time when we look at our Euro neighbours and dont see a bunch of strange people, we should be afraid of, who we need to protect ourselves from. Most of us don`t think like that, and not all leavers do of course, but there is a noisy minority who seem to live in a post WW2 time warp.

Agreed one of the thing that annoys me with those that support Brexit are the ones who seem to still be in some WWII mind set, I work with plenty of people from all over Europe and we do seem to have national traits, (although despite the stereotype the Germans I’ve met do have a great sense of humour :open_mouth: and we used to have great fun winding our French Engineer up about being French and watch his go off on rant about us thinking all French men wear berry’s, ride bike with a baguette in the basket and a string of onions round his neck :laughing: ) I’d hate for us to be in some homogenous Europe, where thousands of years of culture is melded into one big lump.

Franglais:
Again I cant see taxes being centralised in my life time. And is there any evidence at all to suggest they would be higher rather than lower under Brussels rather than London? If so, I would be well in favour, and vote for that today. I want better hospitals, schools, roads, policing. I dont believe any stories from politicians about how we will get a better country without investing in our future. Do you really think low taxes are the be-all and end-all of life?

But if you want a government that changes the tax system in this country we can vote for it, although it’s true we haven’t really had much of a choice for decades, but that seems to be changing. People do seem to be waking up to the fact they not only can change things, but must change things.
The problem with the EU even if we had a more democratic processes, it’s still too big for the ordinary, looking at the desire for Scottish independence, then Brexit and the Catalan push for independence, many people want to feel they have more control over their lives, something they feel they have lost with increased globalisation.

Franglais:
If as you suggest we ended up in the Euro zone, with centralized taxation then clearly any tax rates would apply equally well to France Germany and the UK, since we would all be in the same boat. No accusations of favouritism to one or other party, we would all sink or swim according to our merits.
And if you believe we are intelligent, hard workers why wouldn’t we do well on such a level playing field?

That isn’t really what happened in the case of a single currency, it benefited Germany to trade with a currency that would have been far lower than if they’d kept the Deutschmark, but held back countries who could have benefited by having a lower valued currency. The other thing that would happen, as happens now with the EU contribution, some countries would say they are putting more into the pot and other countries are reaping greater benefits from it.

Franglais:

Carryfast:
Which part of,unlike the EU,two seperate internationally recognised de Facto countries which obviously includes the right to set their own independent taxes and bilateral customs regulations and trade movement arrangements,just as was the case between 1921-1973,didn’t you understand.While we’re agreed that the EU isn’t a country and therefore doesn’t have any automatic right to designate a border in its own right.

So Eire uses the UK as a land bridge to the EU yes just as it did before 1973 so what in view of all the above.IE bearing in mind the EU isn’t a ‘country’ with any border of its own and in which just because Eire chooses to harmonise certain taxes etc in line with EU regulations for itself obviously has no connection whatsoever with a non EU aligned UK nor any supposed bs EU ‘border’.

Before 1972 the UK and Eire were in the Anglo_Irish treaty which effectively put us in the SAME customs zone.
Since 1972 the UK and Eire as members of the EU are in the SAME customs zone.
Post Brexit (depending on deals) the UK and Eire will be in DIFFERENT customs zones.

As members of the EU, Eire, or any member, cannot be in a bi-lateral trade deal with the UK, or anyone else.
You are of course fully entitle to dislike that aspect of the Eu set-up, and you may want us to leave because of this, but arguing it doesn`t exist is foolish.

As I said provide any evidence which shows that the Anglo Irish treaty and its border arrangements were ever actually annulled and superceded by EU ones.As opposed to just added to them obviously subject to either or both’s continuing membership of the EU.The fact that neither Eire or UK has yet seceded from the EU and as a result needed to challenge the idea of a supposed EU border in Ireland therefore affecting the potential recognition of a future EU state,on the grounds that the EU is just a wannabee rogue self appointed non country,doesn’t mean that it can’t happen.It’s that potential threat to their plans for a USE/EUSSR which is really bothering the EU megalomaniacs.

On that note no Eire and UK couldn’t possibly be in the same ‘customs zone’ because Irish independence,according to the Anglo Irish treaty,means exactly what it says on the tin and which obviously includes autonomy to set its own import taxes.This being just one example of an Irish import tariff levied without any need for customs controls at the Irish border.So what changes after Brexit in that regard.

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Apparently its the Germans that will be the biggest losers if we leave with no deal, so i am sure they will heap pressure on the EU masters to change the wording of the agreement, they too know it wont get through parliament and we would end up leaving without a deal. I can see the ferry contracts fiasco is all part of the plan to show we are serious about a No deal, and therefore i dont think it will happen. If Brexit doesnt happen, i can see riots on the streets, with untold damage to the infrastructure…like in Paris at the moment, and i`m not afraid to say…I will be there if my democratic vote is not upheld, but i honestly dont think it will come to that.
I can see us getting a deal, i can see a lot of upheaval in Europe, Italy, France and Greece are going to fight to keep their nations intact, I can forsee other members of the EU wanting to leave, or to water down the deals they have in place as members of the club. As for Eastern European countries, who have mostly only been receivers of cash since they joined, would struggle to find the cash they would be asked to pay, if we left without a deal and they dont get the £39 billion…anyway, its in their hands, so lets hope and pray something happens.

Muckles, your French beret wearing colleague forgot he should also stink of garlic, sport a wide handlebar moustache and be wearing a red and blue stripey jumper :wink:

Juddian:
Muckles, your French beret wearing colleague forgot he should also stink of garlic, sport a wide handlebar moustache and be wearing a red and blue stripey jumper :wink:

:laughing: I think we added to the list every time he went off on a rant, it was a bit of a game, which he understood completely and played along with, I think in the end we had him riding and bike with a basket full of baguettes while playing an accordion and drinking red wine and wearing a stripy jumper with a string of onions round his neck. :laughing:

Franglais:
Assuming youre correct for the moment "Only the UK and France have the stomach for deploying troops and taking causalities", do we in the UK have a large enough force to do that on the world stage anymore? As part of NATO we have some clout still, and as part of a Euro army wouldnt that continue? What scope do we have at the moment for truly independent action, and how would that change?
And to argue with the statement about the Dutch werent they part of a UN force? Maybe a UK commander on the ground would have interpreted the rules differently? Quite possibly. But does one incident, however awful, make for good judgment on an entire army? Political control of armed forces? Hasnt it always been so?
Would any Eu partners have OKed us being a Blairite poodle of the US? Might have been a good thing surely?

The Danes in Afganistan? I know nowt, but if you recommend “No Way Out”, I`ll look on Amazon.

My use of the two examples was to show the huge gap in operational capability and will within different European countries
both of those countries are also near the top of professionalism for European armies yet not even close to the USA, UK or France.
At present Germany the wealthiest country in Europe does not pay the 2% of GDP into NATO that it agreed to at least 10 years ago, yet is prepared to pay for a European army that will set up a parallel organisation that will have nowhere near the capabilities that NATO currently has. A European army is just one more step towards a united states of Europe and is there to satisfy a political need and not a strategic or military one

Mazzer2:
A European army is just one more step towards a united states of Europe and is there to satisfy a political need and not a strategic or military one

^

The first and foremost mission of a Federal Army is to enforce the rule of the Union and to put down secession within it.The actions of the JNA v Slovenian National militia being a recent example of a typical war of Federal aggression.That’s what EU supporters are condemning future generations of Brits to IE potentially classed as ‘rebel traitors to the union’ for wanting their country back.

Mazzer2:

Franglais:
Assuming youre correct for the moment "Only the UK and France have the stomach for deploying troops and taking causalities", do we in the UK have a large enough force to do that on the world stage anymore? As part of NATO we have some clout still, and as part of a Euro army wouldnt that continue? What scope do we have at the moment for truly independent action, and how would that change?
And to argue with the statement about the Dutch werent they part of a UN force? Maybe a UK commander on the ground would have interpreted the rules differently? Quite possibly. But does one incident, however awful, make for good judgment on an entire army? Political control of armed forces? Hasnt it always been so?
Would any Eu partners have OKed us being a Blairite poodle of the US? Might have been a good thing surely?

The Danes in Afganistan? I know nowt, but if you recommend “No Way Out”, I`ll look on Amazon.

My use of the two examples was to show the huge gap in operational capability and will within different European countries
both of those countries are also near the top of professionalism for European armies yet not even close to the USA, UK or France.
At present Germany the wealthiest country in Europe does not pay the 2% of GDP into NATO that it agreed to at least 10 years ago, yet is prepared to pay for a European army that will set up a parallel organisation that will have nowhere near the capabilities that NATO currently has. A European army is just one more step towards a united states of Europe and is there to satisfy a political need and not a strategic or military one

You’re right to point out the German lack of funding.
And I wouldn’t know how to assess professionalism or commitment in armies.
Aren’t all armed forces there for a political gain? That isn’t meant as a flip comment. How can we separate politics from strategy?
Is there any reason an EU army couldn’t support NATO? Get some value from the German taxpayers !

Found this an interesting read earlier, a viewpoint on the ‘British mentality’, can’t C&P as it wants me to subscribe after the first visit.