So those that have received tax bills and want think/new wave investigated, what are the reasons HMRC give for sending you these bills?
weeto:
So those that have received tax bills and want think/new wave investigated, what are the reasons HMRC give for sending you these bills?
For me this is the interesting question. Surely the bill would explain what the fine is for.
Posters are assuming that this is due to IR35, it might not be. Have they been charged under MSC. How did New Wave pay their customers were dividends used.
If the fine is down to accounting irregularities it’s fraud based.
Would be interesting…
weeto:
So those that have received tax bills and want think/new wave investigated, what are the reasons HMRC give for sending you these bills?
MSC,s , MSC PROVIDERS , ir35 , I still don’t understand it even though HMRC have tried explaining it to me a few times , as I said I,m not educated enough to know about such matters if I was I,d be the one living in canary wharf
I have it on extremely good authority that a certain director of THINK has been arrested , obviously he wasn’t arrested over unpaid parking fines and if that’s the case then there has to be some recourse ? , I,m not here to get a slapped wrist over something ive done or didn’t do , apparently I didn’t do enough investigation into the accountants and I accept that , hence the bill for nearly £5000 ,
spinner11:
weeto:
So those that have received tax bills and want think/new wave investigated, what are the reasons HMRC give for sending you these bills?MSC,s , MSC PROVIDERS , ir35 , I still don’t understand it even though HMRC have tried explaining it to me a few times , as I said I,m not educated enough to know about such matters if I was I,d be the one living in canary wharf
I have it on extremely good authority that a certain director of THINK has been arrested , obviously he wasn’t arrested over unpaid parking fines and if that’s the case then there has to be some recourse ? , I,m not here to get a slapped wrist over something ive done or didn’t do , apparently I didn’t do enough investigation into the accountants and I accept that , hence the bill for nearly £5000 ,
There are people on here who will offer an opinion, they will be able to provide more depth to this opinion if you can provide more detail. Some on here are knowledgeable, just avoid the scaremongers who have an agenda other than trying to help.
Based of what you have said it seems that HMRC are saying you (or Think) on your behalf should have been taxing you as an employee as you were set up as a Managed Service Company in that you gave responsibility for the running of your company to a service provider. Think have been treating you as a Private Service Company (PSC) and paying you after expenses (could be fraud here to) a salary to avoid tax and NI topped up with dividends. The bill will be an estimate (which might be accurate if Think have been submitting accounts) of what you should have paid as a MSC less what you have paid as a PSC plus fines and interest.
Don’t just pay it you have the right to appeal. Get a tax expert to give you an opinion.
HMRC passed the MSC legislation and has been after umbrella companies since then. They keep catching them and they simply close and reform. Umbrellas offering paye can be clean, in my opinion they cannot offer Ltd without falling foul of MSC - unless they are paying NI and IT as they would under paye at which point they have not reason to exist. Which was the whole point of MSC legislation - to close that loophole.
Have I missed it/them somewhere, but does a scan of this alleged HMRC fine letter exist anywhere on these forums so we can see what it says?
spinner11:
I,m not educated enough to know about such matters
Repeatedly from many posters I read the above, usually when it refers to not knowing how company tax works, or the person was unwilling to Manage their own affairs, or learn the basics so that they could recognise any potential issues and nip them in the bud. Which is why they used a 3rd party to manage their affairs. HMRC have always been willing to teach potential company directors etc the basics of running a company, as they ran short 2hr seminars through their business education unit, which where simple enough to give candidates an insight into the tax rules. I have always been an advocate of understanding what I’m getting myself into, so others hopefully don’t run rings around me
For what it is worth, as there are a lot of differing views, here goes. The bills of which Driver’s are receiving are not fines. MSC legislation is trying to prove those Driver’s that used Think Accounting’s services, were technically employees of their own Company as Think had too much influence/control of the Driver’s Company to be a stand alone Ltd Company. Therefore differing rates of NI and Taxes apply to the 2 different issues. The bills are what HMRC state is what the shortfall is in mainly NI and also Income Tax. The Driver’s are not tax avoiders, it all comes down to what the tribunals determine the status of the Ltd Co when the cases all go there.
Being a Ltd company attracts completely different taxes/ni liability than being an employee, this is again why HMRC are trying to recover the amounts billed. It all comes down to the status of the Driver’s employment situation, ie employee of his Co or a fully fledged stand alone Ltd Co. IR35 is completely different to MSC.
As for one of Think’s Directors being arrested,(I have a good idea who it is) hopefully for fraud, then I for one will be watching his demise with glee.
I got my letter about 5 month ago just short of 11 grand nearly 4 years i was with them, they were called mypay when i started with them then changed to think not long after i am just a thick fat lorry driver who wanted a wage to spend every week the agencie i signed up with at the time put me in touch with mypay and i am sure pocketed the signing up bonus. igloo as they ended up being called in the end have now shut down altogether with drivers that had stopped with them getting a letter saying he had to shut down due to ill health.
Carl Usher:
The substitution clause is without a doubt the first line of attack that HMRC would use and it’s fair to say that the vast majority of us would fall at the first hurdle there, but wait… We’ve had self-employed OMB (one man band) sparkies, plumbers and brickies since time began and none of those people would realistically be able to substitute themselves with another suitably qualified and experienced person either so do all those people fall foul of IR35 too then? I think not!
Once again the delusional gimp tries to justify his tax evasion.
Yes they’re one man bands but they’re able to send in whoever they want when they’re not available. Others that aren’t such as those subbying to a building company are under the CIS scheme.
The other consideration is that in the event we could actually provide a substitute in the form of another suitably qualified and experienced driver, how many companies would use them? The answer to that would be very few, more likely none of them because of inductions, assessments, H&S procedures etc etc, it’s just not worth the hassle.
But that is the same when an agency sends a different driver to the company so its not a reason.
If you set yourself up properly with VAT rgd Ltd Co., PLI and £10k DNI with £750 excess and source yourself direct work (NOT via an intermediary) at a handful of places and have watertight written contracts in place then I firmly believe that unless you’re taking the ■■■■ by paying yourself minimum wage coupled with large divis and non-existent company expenses, HMRC will leave you alone. If they do decide to investigate then you can demonstrate to them that you have everything in place to show you’re operating as a genuine business with all the associated risks, rather than merely a vehicle of convenience solely for the purpose of tax avoidance which is how most s/e and ltd co drivers are set up to be just to get an extra quid an hour.
First questions that will be asked are could they send someone else in and does the client or their representative (staff) tell them how to do the work the same as they would an employee of that company. And we all know the answer to that.
The way you’re bleating on its like you’re completely ignorant of all the changes that have been made recently.
I found the post with the image in of the £15600 tax bill and the explanation. HMRC decided that the driver was operating their company as a MSC and using the small salary with expenses and dividend model (sound familiar?) to evade tax.
It makes me laugh that certain members of this forum think the haulage industry is the only sector that has people working as a ltd company and/or through an agency.
Contractors are normally contractors for a reason.
Conor…
“The way you’re bleating on its like you’re completely ignorant of all the changes that have been made recently.” - Once again can you provide the links to the HMRC legislation you are quoting.
MSC is not recent it was passed in 2007.
A fundamental part of MSC is passing control of your company to someone else. Therefore single person Ltd companies who control themselves cannot be ruled MSC’s. The image above is MSC related which implies the company being charged had passed responsibility to an umberella. This is a total different issue to the substitution issue of IR35 you quote in the previous sentence.
Ltd companies that do not use an umbrella are PSC not MSC. Important difference.
As an aside why does all this matter so much to you. You clearly spend large amounts of time researching this issue. As someone who is committed to the PAYE model why does it matter to you so much?.
Concretejim:
It makes me laugh that certain members of this forum think the haulage industry is the only sector that has people working as a ltd company and/or through an agency.Contractors are normally contractors for a reason.
The use of the PSC is a massive issue for the HMRC. Haulage is a small player compared to what other sectors are contributing to lost tax. Medical and legal professions are often on 3 time or more and hour than the lowly driver.
parliament.uk/documents/lord … volume.pdf
The BBC (government controlled corporation) used to advise contractors to set up a PSC…
raggylad:
I got my letter about 5 month ago just short of 11 grand nearly 4 years i was with them, they were called mypay when i started with them then changed to think not long after i am just a thick fat lorry driver who wanted a wage to spend every week the agencie i signed up with at the time put me in touch with mypay and i am sure pocketed the signing up bonus. igloo as they ended up being called in the end have now shut down altogether with drivers that had stopped with them getting a letter saying he had to shut down due to ill health.
I got that letter on the 14th feb and was told that all my documentation and outstanding monies they had of mine had been transferred to a company in st albans , Today I received my usual text from (IGLOO/THINK) telling me how much I was due this week and when my funds would be available , how on earth do they know this ? I never supplied them with an E-mail telling them how much I,d earnt like I used to , , they’ve got my information from somewhere and it wasn’t my agency (I checked) , something is still going on !!! I cant get in touch with the number in st albans but there seems to be some activity on IGLOO/THINK telephone number again , COME ON HMRC SORT THIS OUT I know you read these posts These accountants in st albans and THINK/IGLOO are connected in some way ,
Any Company that receives a NI/Income tax bill from HMRC regarding the MSC Legislation should read the section on “Debt Transfer”. What this part of the legislation states is that the bill will firstly be applied to the Company, if the Company cannot pay the bill, then the bill will be passed to the Director, ie the Driver, it can then be passed to the Directors of Think Accounting, which to me proves HMRC are after monies and don’t give a hoot where they get it from as long as they do. If the Driver was deemed to be a tax avoider/evader then the tax/ni bill would stop with him. IMO, Just a fishing exercise on behalf of HMRC to shore up their dwindling finances. If everbody that receives these bills appeals to HMRC, then after the one sided appeal by their own officials fails, then apply for an independent tribunal to give a judgement. This would give the Driver a platform to give facts as to his/her situation. Each situation may be different but scaremongers on here bleating that Driver’s are tax evaders just proves they have as much knowledge on the MSC legislation as I do on the mating habits of a Hippopotamus.
Nice reply robbo99
I also know nowt about hypos getting it on.
However there were of fatties getting jiggy at Woodlall services last week that was gross
I do know Think / New Wave / Igloo shower are/were just a bunch of scammers
Think they have now finally gone but took afew quid in Vat and tax off last few that were still with them
Probably old news just came across this as to why they had another name change last year
linkedin.com/pulse/hmrc-act … olyn-walsh
cheers
simon
What goes around comes around, I hope Wilson and his cronies have plenty of sleepless nights waiting for the knock at the door from the authorities, that’s if it hasn’t happened already. They can duck and dive as much as they want but all of their, lets say unethical and dubious business practices are now out in the open. I also hope that HMRC are shown up in their true colours over the handling of this debacle.
Been told that Igloo are about to change there name in the coming weeks
“Merchant Bankers” would be an appropriate new name for them.