There's a driver shortage

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
121

We’ve got all these EU regulations that are supposed to make things safer for road users, avoid fatigue, etc.

Trouble is, the moment you stick in “Ammendments” to the original set of rules, you compromise the whole health and safety aspect entirely.

Eg. We’re supposed to work 10 hours max on night shift when driving, but one can do 15 hours as well.
So… Firms will just make use of that “loophole” to get too many hours out of the driver, simply by planning 15 hour shifts from the outset, or even planning 12 hour shifts that often overflow into 15 hour ones.

It ain’t safe. We all know that, but current pay structure encourages people including myself to work more hours than they really safely can, and on a regular basis to boot.

A Better system then would be all our jobs being planned for a ten hour shift, with the last two hours consisting of “indoor” aspects to the job. That way, you’ve got room to move if you over-run on your last journey of the shift, rather than being sent out on a 2 hour run 13 hours into a shift already. :unamused:

The EU regulations seem to only be used to levy fines. They don’t serve the purpose of actually “saving lives” which needs a cultural change in the way we work in ANY job, not just road transport.

At the other end of the scale, we’re always told about “huge court backlogs” and “overcrowded legal system”, yet we have judges sitting down around 10am, buggering off for a two hour lunch, and rising “at the convenient moment” around 4pm for a… FOUR HOUR DAY FFS? :angry: How come a Judge can’t “Sit for 15 hours three times a week” or “work nights and weekends” for that meaty salary they draw?

SALARY is the key. If you pay people a flat wage, they’ll bunk off as much as they possibly can get away with. If you pay people by the hour, you encourage them to work too many hours.
I reckon the best solution then, would be a flat SHORT working day, with overtime readily available on a “if you do it, you get paid it” basis. This takes the “hurry hurry” out of the 10 hours in driver on his way back to base, with the thought of “gotta rush, because I’m on my own time”. Planned overtime might not be the answer, as people will just hang it out, take too many breaks, etc.

FLEXItime might be the best of all: You are obliged to put in a 48 hour weeks. Run out of those hours by wednesday, and you’re stood down for the rest of the week. Employers won’t be so keen to do monday-wednesday 3x15 hours when you’ll end up losing 3 hours per week because there’s not enough to get a 4th shift out of them in this example. All in all, it would be better if planners could actually be ex-drivers I reckon.

“Plans are useless - but planning is essential”.
Dwight D Eisenhower

122

Didn’t expect to see an arguement about climate change when I clicked on here.
The reason there is a driver shortage is on the whole it’s a pretty crap job.
Between traffic micro management of staff poor wages lack of facilities for drivers on the road especially for nights out. Cost of getting the licence then struggling to find a decent job.
Just recently I’ve been looking round at what jobs are out there for the first time in many years.
The local paper was the place to look back then but when I look on job sites it all appears to be agencies advertising and very few real jobs.

123

Winseer:
We’ve got all these EU regulations that are supposed to make things safer for road users, avoid fatigue, etc.

Trouble is, the moment you stick in “Ammendments” to the original set of rules, you compromise the whole health and safety aspect entirely.

Eg. We’re supposed to work 10 hours max on night shift when driving, but one can do 15 hours as well.
So… Firms will just make use of that “loophole” to get too many hours out of the driver, simply by planning 15 hour shifts from the outset, or even planning 12 hour shifts that often overflow into 15 hour ones.

It ain’t safe. We all know that, but current pay structure encourages people including myself to work more hours than they really safely can, and on a regular basis to boot.

The problem is that the regs are set up for the obvious idea that trucks are being used as mobile warehouse space because that’s more profitable than paying for the fuel to move freight. :bulb:

IE how do you account for the difference between a 9-10 hour driving time limit v 15 hour shift,who needs that type of unproductive ( in terms of tonne/mile freight moved ) over run and why. :bulb:

124

kr79:
Didn’t expect to see an arguement about climate change when I clicked on here.
Just recently I’ve been looking round at what jobs are out there for the first time in many years.
The local paper was the place to look back then but when I look on job sites it all appears to be agencies advertising and very few real jobs.

Ironically it’s the political anti road transport crusade using the excuse of the former that’s in large part causing the latter.On that note why would anyone with any sense want to base their future job security and income prospects on an industry that’s being intentionally crippled by the eco nazis.With what jobs left being the typical domain of agencies.IE filling job vacancies in the remaining sectors that are least in demand by drivers to work in such as local distribution and building trade deliveries. :bulb:

125

I don’t think cliamate change has anything to do with firms refusing to pay overnight parking and thinking it’s acceptable to leave drivers parked in lay bys at night and having to crap in a carrier bag if caught short.

126

Carryfast:

Winseer:
We’ve got all these EU regulations that are supposed to make things safer for road users, avoid fatigue, etc.

Trouble is, the moment you stick in “Ammendments” to the original set of rules, you compromise the whole health and safety aspect entirely.

Eg. We’re supposed to work 10 hours max on night shift when driving, but one can do 15 hours as well.
So… Firms will just make use of that “loophole” to get too many hours out of the driver, simply by planning 15 hour shifts from the outset, or even planning 12 hour shifts that often overflow into 15 hour ones.

It ain’t safe. We all know that, but current pay structure encourages people including myself to work more hours than they really safely can, and on a regular basis to boot.

The problem is that the regs are set up for the obvious idea that trucks are being used as mobile warehouse space because that’s more profitable than paying for the fuel to move freight. :bulb:

IE how do you account for the difference between a 9-10 hour driving time limit v 15 hour shift,who needs that type of unproductive ( in terms of tonne/mile freight moved ) over run and why. :bulb:

The M25 for starters. If any of us turned up to work expecting a 10-12 hour shift, and ended up doing 15 - then the traffic is going to be the number one reason for it.

Obviously, if it was something like “you report to the transport office, having got back 7 hours into your shift, and they then offer you another run of equal length”. I’ll accept or refuse it according to what I came to work expecting to do that day. If I’m up for a 15 hour, because I’ve had a decent night’s sleep - then “Sure Boss”. If not, I’ll refuse and suggest I’ve finished for the day, if there’s no other run of 1-3 hours for me right now.
(If I’m 7 hours in, and asked to “wait around to see if there’s another run” - then no thanks - I’d rather knock off early!)

They don’t like that though - because you might be paid a minimum 8 hours, and for that they expect you to work 9 and take an hours break off! - Not go home after bloody seven, and MAKE an hour. :smiling_imp:

127

Winseer:

Carryfast:

Winseer:
We’ve got all these EU regulations that are supposed to make things safer for road users, avoid fatigue, etc.

Trouble is, the moment you stick in “Ammendments” to the original set of rules, you compromise the whole health and safety aspect entirely.

Eg. We’re supposed to work 10 hours max on night shift when driving, but one can do 15 hours as well.
So… Firms will just make use of that “loophole” to get too many hours out of the driver, simply by planning 15 hour shifts from the outset, or even planning 12 hour shifts that often overflow into 15 hour ones.

It ain’t safe. We all know that, but current pay structure encourages people including myself to work more hours than they really safely can, and on a regular basis to boot.

The problem is that the regs are set up for the obvious idea that trucks are being used as mobile warehouse space because that’s more profitable than paying for the fuel to move freight. :bulb:

IE how do you account for the difference between a 9-10 hour driving time limit v 15 hour shift,who needs that type of unproductive ( in terms of tonne/mile freight moved ) over run and why. :bulb:

The M25 for starters. If any of us turned up to work expecting a 10-12 hour shift, and ended up doing 15 - then the traffic is going to be the number one reason for it.

Obviously, if it was something like “you report to the transport office, having got back 7 hours into your shift, and they then offer you another run of equal length”. I’ll accept or refuse it according to what I came to work expecting to do that day. If I’m up for a 15 hour, because I’ve had a decent night’s sleep - then “Sure Boss”. If not, I’ll refuse and suggest I’ve finished for the day, if there’s no other run of 1-3 hours for me right now.
(If I’m 7 hours in, and asked to “wait around to see if there’s another run” - then no thanks - I’d rather knock off early!)

They don’t like that though - because you might be paid a minimum 8 hours, and for that they expect you to work 9 and take an hours break off! - Not go home after bloody seven, and MAKE an hour. :smiling_imp:

Firstly unless it’s actually stopped standing traffic it should count towards the driving time limit in that regard. :confused:

While again it doesn’t matter how many runs you do the question of accounting for the need for a 5-6 hour over run obove the driving time limit applies.Bearing in mind that it only needs 45 minutes break to cover the driving time limit in most cases.Which leaves more than 4 hours of wasted wages moving freight no where.

128

Talking of the environmental stuff, why do people hate landfilling as it causes methane gas, yet love composting. The gas is still produced.
Do your bit for the environment; Have your adblue turned off and save energy from making the rop off stuff. :wink:

129

Carryfast:
Firstly unless it’s actually stopped standing traffic it should count towards the driving time limit in that regard. :confused:

While again it doesn’t matter how many runs you do the question of accounting for the need for a 5-6 hour over run obove the driving time limit applies.Bearing in mind that it only needs 45 minutes break to cover the driving time limit in most cases.Which leaves more than 4 hours of wasted wages moving freight no where.

Just because you drove a gritter so unloaded on the move, the rest of us don’t have that luxury, although I seen a few that have tired, especially on roundabouts :laughing:

130

kr79:
I don’t think cliamate change has anything to do with firms refusing to pay overnight parking and thinking it’s acceptable to leave drivers parked in lay bys at night and having to crap in a carrier bag if caught short.

Eco based ‘disincentives’ to send stuff by road obviously mean hitting the operator and customer with punitive costs.It doesn’t matter whether the guvnor then reflects that in wages in the form of cutting back on ‘allowances/expenses’ or the hourly rate.So they pay more night out money then they cut the wage what’s the difference.It’s the amount of money left over after fuel costs to pay ‘wages’ in whatever form that’s the problem at the end of the day.As for having to stop in a lay by there’s often no choice assuming a driver has run out of driving time under the all seeing big brother eye of the tacho enforcing the silly driving time regs to the minute.Although I did nights out and whole shifts without ever needing to get involved with military type field ‘living arrangements’.

131

muckles:
Just because you drove a gritter so unloaded on the move, the rest of us don’t have that luxury, although I seen a few that have tired, especially on roundabouts :laughing:

It’s the issue of needing more than 4 hours in a shift to supposedly ‘load’ and ‘unload’ that I was referring to.Which sort of defeats the object of the flexibility of artics etc.IE in an ideal world it would be mostly pre loaded trailer or demount box swaps.

Although you might have to spend a bit of time throw a some rope or straps over the load in a curtain sider before moving.Assuming they could be bothered to put the hooks there to do it in the case of roping it. :smiling_imp: :laughing: While I only drove a gritter rareley in the 5 years I did on the council.The rest being mostly those trailer/box swaps in my case.

Having managed to ( mostly ) avoid the idea of the transhipment hub system.Which of course is one of the ideas which turns what was a 9-10 hour job and finish shift into a 12 hour possibly more one.Often with the addition that it means the extra time working as a warehouse labourer to add insult to injury. :bulb: :unamused:

132

Carryfast:

muckles:
Just because you drove a gritter so unloaded on the move, the rest of us don’t have that luxury, although I seen a few that have tired, especially on roundabouts :laughing:

It’s the issue of needing more than 4 hours in a shift to supposedly ‘load’ and ‘unload’ that I was referring to.Which sort of defeats the object of the flexibility of artics etc.IE in an ideal world it would be mostly pre loaded trailer or demount box swaps.

Although you might have to spend a bit of time throw a some rope or straps over the load in a curtain sider before moving.Assuming they could be bothered to put the hooks there to do it in the case of roping it. :smiling_imp: :laughing: While I only drove a gritter rareley in the 5 years I did on the council.The rest being mostly those trailer/box swaps in my case.

Having managed to ( mostly ) avoid the idea of the transhipment hub system.Which of course is one of the ideas which turns what was a 9-10 hour job and finish shift into a 12 hour possibly more one. :bulb: :unamused:

So what about a 6 hours ferry crossing being part of your working day?

133

muckles:
So what about a 6 hours ferry crossing being part of your working day?

I don’t think that Winseer was referring to such special rare types of circumstance in the case of the general expectation of 15 hour shifts nor why those types of shift length are needed.

134

Carryfast:

muckles:
So what about a 6 hours ferry crossing being part of your working day?

I don’t think that Winseer was referring to such special rare types of circumstance in the case of the general expectation of 15 hour shifts nor why those types of shift length are needed.

You asked

IE how do you account for the difference between a 9-10 hour driving time limit v 15 hour shift,who needs that type of unproductive ( in terms of tonne/mile freight moved ) over run and why. :bulb:

And I’ve given you a reason why you might need a 15 hour shift and only a 10hr drive, and it’s not that rare,

135

40 foot container loaded with small boxes not on pallets isn’t a 10 minute job to unload either.
I agree that the amount of times some places take to load or unload a lorry is a joke but not every job is like carryfasts 80s night trunking job although he try’s to compare it to that

136

I used to do up to 15hrs on many shifts with out travelling long distances. I would drive for 45mins, spend up to two hours loading, then two hours driving to delivery point. I would then take a 45min break and then spend an hour or more tipping. I would then drive for 1.5hrs to reload point and spend another hour or more loading. I would drive for 1.5hrs back to yard taking a 45min break en route

This is around 13.25 hr spreadover driving less than 250 miles.

137

Ferries: If your on board for six hours, I would imagine you take a planned break of similar length, and split your shift.

Traffic Delays: MOST traffic hold-ups consist of stop-start traffic that moves very slowly, such as four lanes coned down to one after an accident or planned overnight road closure. That digicard is registering you as driving every minute in such traffic.

The type of hold-up where the accident happens right in front of you - might mean that you’ve actually parked up long enough to book off a 45, and possibly a whole night out. Use best judgement as to what applies.

A few weeks ago, I had the misfortune to approach the dartford tunnel around midnight, only to find out when I was already committed - that it was going to be closed until 4am! So I booked 45 minutes as break (to keep the six hours in WTD happy) and informed them back at the office that I would not be working the following shift under any circumstances, having volunteered to go over 10 hours (to 14.5 hours as it happens) to get myself on the rest of my round trip legally. I’m not booking “POA” during that stand-still period near J1a before the old toll zone, because I would just be told “Come in tomorrow as usual - you’ve saved enough hours to do that.”

One of the reasons I avoid using POA, even when others might argue that my circumstances that evening were exactly the type of reason one should use it. Don’t fall for it folks - POA is “driver’s discretion” to avoid a night out. NOT “get down my hours, so I can be a firm’s boy and get extra unpaid hours in legally this week”. :angry:

138

kr79:
40 foot container loaded with small boxes not on pallets isn’t a 10 minute job to unload either.
I agree that the amount of times some places take to load or unload a lorry is a joke but not every job is like carryfasts 80s night trunking job although he try’s to compare it to that

Maybe you missed my reference to transhipment hub system type trunking as opposed to job and finish direct link trailer swap type work.In which case I obviously know all about tipping and stuffing loose loaded trailers. :unamused:

IE Ironically,with the the exception that it was 45 ft trailers,what you’ve described there is exactly the night trunking regime,done on a hub system basis,which I spent most/all of the 1990’s trying to avoid by luckily staying with what long haul direct trunks we had left wherever possible. :bulb: :wink: IE as I said what was a 9-10hour,sometimes even less,job and finish trailer/box swap shift turned into a longer one involving less driving time,spent either waiting around or having to get involved in warehouse work.While speed limiters didn’t exactly help in that regard even in the case of the few remaining direct trunks.All of which obviously makes even the previously relatively attractive trunking sector less so now. :bulb:

139

Muckaway:
Talking of the environmental stuff, why do people hate landfilling as it causes methane gas, yet love composting. The gas is still produced.
Do your bit for the environment; Have your adblue turned off and save energy from making the rop off stuff. :wink:

As far as organic matter goes; In land fill the oxygen is removed from the decay process and for some reason this causes large amounts of methane to be produced which is a very powerful, harmful and persistent ‘green house gas’. If your garden compost heap is working properly then only CO2 is released, and since this CO2 has only recently been borrowed from the atmosphere when the plant grew, then there is no additional CO2 being added to the atmosphere. Hence lad fill is bad.

As for removing adBlue and DPFs; I think certainly we would get a fair bit more MPG with this stuff removed therefor a lot less CO2 which would be a very good thing. But that means more of the harmful harmful pollutants that damage our health. I’m no expert on the subject and maybe talking bolloxs, but, maybe there is a case where all these restrictive anti-pollution devices could be switched off when travelling at speed out of town with the gases being quickly distributed into the atmosphere, then switched back on when in densely populated urban areas on windless days.

140

Bluey Circles:
As far as organic matter goes; In land fill the oxygen is removed from the decay process and for some reason this causes large amounts of methane to be produced which is a very powerful, harmful and persistent ‘green house gas’. If your garden compost heap is working properly then only CO2 is released, and since this CO2 has only recently been borrowed from the atmosphere when the plant grew, then there is no additional CO2 being added to the atmosphere. Hence lad fill is bad.

Isn’t the methane contained in the breakdown process then returned to the atmosphere as CO2 when it’s burnt off by flaring in just the same way that CO2 in plants creates no net difference.

Meanwhile as a believer can you explain what the temperature is today in the arctic and Siberia and how that differs from what it actually ‘should’ be.IE exactly how cold do you want it v what it actually is.

Or for that matter what would the CO2 content of the atmosphere actually be if we burnt all of the planet’s fossil fuel reserves and exactly what evidence have you got that such a level would make the slightest difference in not being capable of being dealt with naturally in the usual way.Let alone it creating Sagan’s bs runaway so called Venus effect on Earth.