The UK Haulage Industry in a Nutshell?

Kerragy:
Hauliers are in denial and so are their trade associations.

Training isn’t the issue, retention is.

Also, let’s make it more appealing to minority groups & women?
What do minority groups and women require that middle aged white men don’t? I’m sorry, but other than carpet on the bog floor I can’t think of a single thing that can be justified for women that can’t be for men (Actually I can think of more but took a little literary license OK?). How about making the industry appealing to people, you know, human beings?

Absolutely bang on,

It’s strange that the Parliamentary Committee and writer for the Guardian (of all papers :open_mouth: ) can see the problem, but the Haulage Industry can’t or more likely won’t see it as any solution will cost them money.

When you all re-train as train drivers, do me a favour, keep the speed down as you come down my street delivering parcels will you?
Thanks
Bernard

There is an interesting article i saw on facebook about the ‘truth’ behind the driver shortage. http://www.pdu-uk.co.uk/Driver-Shortage.html Seems to be on the right line.

The whole industry needs a root and branch overhaul imho. We need a haulage czar or ombudsman, somebody that’s prepared to set some realistic standards, both for employment and operations. I was only talking to a good mate yesterday, about how someone like Barry Proctor must have felt, with millions invested in specialist brick and block vehicles, only for the likes of wincanton and stobart to make an assault on his industry, with rock bottom rates, subbing loads out to Cowboys with tatty 5 grand curtainsiders. You wouldn’t mind if it was equating to cheaper housing, but it just means the house builders can shave £500 quid off a house load of bricks and keep the extra for themselves. It’s turning the industry toxic :unamused:

Kerragy:
Hauliers are in denial and so are their trade associations.

Training isn’t the issue, retention is.

Also, let’s make it more appealing to minority groups & women?
What do minority groups and women require that middle aged white men don’t? I’m sorry, but other than carpet on the bog floor I can’t think of a single thing that can be justified for women that can’t be for men (Actually I can think of more but took a little literary license OK?). How about making the industry appealing to people, you know, human beings?

.

As a woman, with mostly female friends, I can say that not one of them has a. thought about being a trucker and b. if I mentioned it, they’d run a mile. As a gender, we don’t generally like the idea of being a truck driver and that isn’t going to change whatever you try and do to pretty it up.

OVLOV JAY:
The whole industry needs a root and branch overhaul imho. We need a haulage czar or ombudsman, somebody that’s prepared to set some realistic standards, both for employment and operations. I was only talking to a good mate yesterday, about how someone like Barry Proctor must have felt, with millions invested in specialist brick and block vehicles, only for the likes of wincanton and stobart to make an assault on his industry, with rock bottom rates, subbing loads out to Cowboys with tatty 5 grand curtainsiders. You wouldn’t mind if it was equating to cheaper housing, but it just means the house builders can shave £500 quid off a house load of bricks and keep the extra for themselves. It’s turning the industry toxic :unamused:

It’s always been like that to some degree. I can remember being a bairn and out with my Dad, and it was always talk about the poor rates and people undercutting. That was in the late 60s, early 70s. We have a niche and Stobbies tried to muscle in - fortunately made a complete bollox of the job, but sooner or later they or Wincantons will come up with a way to save £10.00 and I won’t be able to compete with their volume savings on costs.

albion:

OVLOV JAY:
The whole industry needs a root and branch overhaul imho. We need a haulage czar or ombudsman, somebody that’s prepared to set some realistic standards, both for employment and operations. I was only talking to a good mate yesterday, about how someone like Barry Proctor must have felt, with millions invested in specialist brick and block vehicles, only for the likes of wincanton and stobart to make an assault on his industry, with rock bottom rates, subbing loads out to Cowboys with tatty 5 grand curtainsiders. You wouldn’t mind if it was equating to cheaper housing, but it just means the house builders can shave £500 quid off a house load of bricks and keep the extra for themselves. It’s turning the industry toxic :unamused:

It’s always been like that to some degree. I can remember being a bairn and out with my Dad, and it was always talk about the poor rates and people undercutting. That was in the late 60s, early 70s. We have a niche and Stobbies tried to muscle in - fortunately made a complete bollox of the job, but sooner or later they or Wincantons will come up with a way to save £10.00 and I won’t be able to compete with their volume savings on costs.

Exactly why we need government intervention now

Carryfast:
Road transport operators don’t need to pay for the entire costs of the road network only their share of it.Of which VED more than covers bearing in mind that VED more than covers road expenditure as it stands having been diverted from road budgets to other requirements.

As I say, there is a bait and switch here. I’m willing to believe operators pay for the tarmac wear and nothing more.

I’m not willing to believe they pay for everything about the road network which they depend on (including the constant incremental additions to the infrastructure to enable 100% access to new premises, the expense of building it at a scale suitable for large vehicles, the repair and inspection regimes, the training costs, the policing costs, and so on), except perhaps partly through the range of taxes that they currently pay (and should therefore continue to pay).

The railways do not need to be taxed in the same way, because it is more financially integrated and there is less potential for free riding, so to speak.

Yes we know that trains can win out in terms of productivety regarding bulk products going to the same destination served by rail terminals at each end of the journey.But they aren’t much good when it comes to shifting numerous different ( truck sized ) loads to numerous different widespread destinations away from rail terminals.The definition of ( truck sized ) being open to variables and question.With the bigger that definition then the more advantageous road transport and the less rail transport’s advantages become.On that note we’ve seen numerous attempts by the rail lobby to artificially limit ( sabotage ) road transport’s efficiency in that regard historically in a blatant attempt to protect rail interests.

I don’t know what sabotage you’re specifically referring to, but I imagine the rail industry has a perfectly fair case for saying that the supposed efficiencies of road transport should not even be visited by our minds until there is an equalisation of wages and conditions. It might be the case that, once this has occurred, rail is the indisputable winner.

Road transport operators who promote competition with rail are not doing so out of any high-minded judgment about the suitability of each. They would happily replace the railways with horse-drawn carriages, if they could amass a slave army to run it for peanuts.

On that note truck driver’s wages can obviously be improved massively than they are now given the extra productivety ( and extra skills demanded ) provided by the use of LHV’s and the cost savings provided by the use of red diesel.In which case what is the rail sector so afraid of in that regard.

I don’t agree. The increased productivity (or reduced taxation) might go straight to customers as reduced prices, or operators as increased profits, not to workers as increased wages. That is the story of the British economy over the past 40 years - productivity has increased massively, and wages have not.

Your problem is that you start by assuming that operators are collectively under some sort of constraint in paying low wages, which they would gladly increase if they could. The only constraint they are under is in competition with each other, and charging customers too little (who could easily pay more), because labour is not sufficiently organised to enforce a higher price.

As for treating truck drivers as second class workers.That’s exactly what such unjustified sabotaging of the road transport industry,to create a rigged playing field which favours rail freight workers,is doing.While it’s equally obvious that standing together against the employers ain’t going to work.Until ‘that’ problem has been sorted out first and which the employers ‘and’ drivers 'should be expected to be on the same side.

The interests of the working class are not sabotaged by protecting high-pay, high-productivity industries from undercutting by low-pay, low-productivity industries.

It is not obvious to me that employers and drivers should ever be on the same side in fighting the employers and workers in an adjacent division of the same industry, because all the employers on each side will do is play off the workers on each side against each other.

Road haulage employers will tell drivers that there’s no room for wages to stay high or else they’ll lose work to rail, and rail freight employers will say the same vice versa, so that the workers on both sides get locked into undercutting each other until their wages have reached the bottom.

OVLOV JAY:
The whole industry needs a root and branch overhaul imho. We need a haulage czar or ombudsman, somebody that’s prepared to set some realistic standards, both for employment and operations. I was only talking to a good mate yesterday, about how someone like Barry Proctor must have felt, with millions invested in specialist brick and block vehicles, only for the likes of wincanton and stobart to make an assault on his industry, with rock bottom rates, subbing loads out to Cowboys with tatty 5 grand curtainsiders. You wouldn’t mind if it was equating to cheaper housing, but it just means the house builders can shave £500 quid off a house load of bricks and keep the extra for themselves. It’s turning the industry toxic :unamused:

Indeed it is toxic, replacing safe, efficient, purpose-built vehicles with old general purpose crap.

kr79:
I meant did you read the original posters article link

Yes.In which the Grauniad was moaning about low productivety and low paid drivers not wanting to do the job.In which case how does supporting the rail freight lobby against LHV’s and a fuel taxation system which makes it cheaper to either use trucks as mobile warehousing or a local delivery service.Thereby creating a situation of 15 hour shifts,to go nowhere,or zb local building delivery work which even Dolph’s lot don’t want,supposedly help.Bearing in mind a productivety figure based on tonne/miles of freight moved.

Rjan:

Carryfast:

As for treating truck drivers as second class workers.That’s exactly what such unjustified sabotaging of the road transport industry,to create a rigged playing field which favours rail freight workers,is doing.While it’s equally obvious that standing together against the employers ain’t going to work.Until ‘that’ problem has been sorted out first and which the employers ‘and’ drivers 'should be expected to be on the same side.

The interests of the working class are not sabotaged by protecting high-pay, high-productivity industries from undercutting by low-pay, low-productivity industries.

It is not obvious to me that employers and drivers should ever be on the same side in fighting the employers and workers in an adjacent division of the same industry, because all the employers on each side will do is play off the workers on each side against each other.

Road haulage employers will tell drivers that there’s no room for wages to stay high or else they’ll lose work to rail, and rail freight employers will say the same vice versa, so that the workers on both sides get locked into undercutting each other until their wages have reached the bottom.

The interests of the working class are sabotaged when you impose artificial productivety restrictions and unfair punitive taxation on road transport, thereby affecting the terms and conditions of the many ( truck drivers ),in an attempt to provide superior terms and conditions for a chosen few ( train drivers ).Although that’s just as would be expected from the Socialist mindset of every one is equal but some are more equal than others.

On that note we’re dealing with exactly the situation of rail freight employees ‘and’ their employers being in an alliance regards that status quo.While truck drivers and their employers are as usual too fragmented and confused in their thought processes to unite and retaliate against such an unfair situation.

As usual your contradictory ideas speaking for themselves in that regard.In preaching working class unity on one hand while defending big business rail freight interests and employment over truck drivers and their employers on the other.Bearing in mind that road transport can provide the best of all worlds situation of efficiency and productivety together with more employment in terms of drivers etc than rail can.

Carryfast:
The interests of the working class are sabotaged when you impose artificial productivety restrictions

There logically has to be some restriction in dimensions to which the infrastructure is built.

and unfair punitive taxation on road transport,

That’s begging the question.

thereby affecting the terms and conditions of the many ( truck drivers ),

Absolute Thatcherite ■■■■■■■■!

in an attempt to provide superior terms and conditions for a chosen few ( train drivers ).

They already had superior terms and conditions. It is truckers wages and conditions that have dropped through the floor in recent times, and that’s purely for one reason which is excessive competition/lack of solidarity.

James the cat:

Carryfast:
Seems strange why you’d want to keep moaning about my posts.

Er, I’m not the only one. You two knacker up a thread. You know that though. You take it over. You remove any desire to post about a topic. Noticed how quiet the topic is now you and Einstein have started? There’s no point posting given any response will result in 3 pages of hard to read dialogue from just 2 posters.

Feel free to join in.

Rjan:

Carryfast:
The interests of the working class are sabotaged when you impose artificial productivety restrictions

There logically has to be some restriction in dimensions to which the infrastructure is built.

and unfair punitive taxation on road transport,

That’s begging the question.

thereby affecting the terms and conditions of the many ( truck drivers ),

Absolute Thatcherite ■■■■■■■■!

in an attempt to provide superior terms and conditions for a chosen few ( train drivers ).

They already had superior terms and conditions. It is truckers wages and conditions that have dropped through the floor in recent times, and that’s purely for one reason which is excessive competition/lack of solidarity.

The ‘infrastructure’ is ‘already’ there in being able to handle 25 m drawbars in a similar way that it can handle current length/weight artics.The issue of legislation against LHV’s being all about restricting road transport industry access to the transport market not one of infrastructure.

There’s no question that road fuel duty levied on road transport is an unfair tax which,like unwarranted length/weight restrictions,distorts its access to the transport market.In addition to imposing costs on the industry,which obviously have a direct impact on the potential for job opportunities and wages and terms and conditions regards its workforce.To the point where the ongoing shift in better quality work from road to rail is resulting in even the East Euro immigrant workforce voting with its feet,as in Dolph’s example.Bearing in mind as I said road transport is potentially a bigger employer than rail is.What’s Thatcherite about calling for a level/leveller playing field in that regard.

As for terms and conditions falling through the floor in recent years see above.IE fuel costs are forming too great a proportion of costs to make it viable to run many operations.In this case the type of operations which make the job more attractive for many drivers.While in the case of all those operations that do remain viable that viability is often at the expense of workers’ terms and conditions to compensate for that punitive artificial costs environment.No amount of union solidarity would fix that basic problem.

Carryfast:
The ‘infrastructure’ is ‘already’ there in being able to handle 25 m drawbars in a similar way that it can handle current length/weight artics. The issue of legislation against LHV’s being all about restricting road transport industry access to the transport market not one of infrastructure.

My understanding is that infrastructure is not designed to routinely handle any greater dimensions or weights than now. Why would it be otherwise?

The government policy of encouraging rail freight for base loads is simply because it is technologically more efficient. Would these road transport operations advocating LHVs, who will just pip rail if they are allowed to compete given current wage levels, really be able to compete with rail if truck drivers’ wages were tripled or quadrupled? I think not.

There’s no question that road fuel duty levied on road transport is an unfair tax which,like unwarranted length/weight restrictions,distorts its access to the transport market.In addition to imposing costs on the industry,which obviously have a direct impact on the potential for job opportunities and wages and terms and conditions regards its workforce.To the point where the ongoing shift in better quality work from road to rail is resulting in even the East Euro immigrant workforce voting with its feet,as in Dolph’s example.Bearing in mind as I said road transport is potentially a bigger employer than rail is.What’s Thatcherite about calling for a level/leveller playing field in that regard.

This sounds like bunkum straight out the RHA/FTA bible - same as their rubbish about a driver shortage. I do not accept that transport costs are having any bearing at all on workers’ wages. They wheel this rubbish out every time they want an excuse for paying drivers crap wages (and, as the case may be, not charging customers enough).

When, say, a Tesco delivery contract goes to Stobarts, there is not a sudden massive increase in costs which explains a drop in drivers’ pay and conditions. Tesco simply saves money on haulage and pays it out in profits instead, or uses it to reduce supermarket prices (which then puts pressure on other supermarkets to attack their drivers in order to reduce prices in lockstep).

A reduction in supermarket prices certainly does not benefit drivers who lose far more in wages, and in fact it does not benefit any part of the workforce which is attacked. It benefits those who live on unearned income (because the same rate of profit income now buys more goods or labour hours), and to a lesser extent the professional and managerial classes who are less vulnerable to such wage attacks.

As for terms and conditions falling through the floor in recent years see above.IE fuel costs are forming too great a proportion of costs to make it viable to run many operations.

Absolute cobblers. There’s more road haulage operators around me than you can shake a stick at, many of them practically one-man-bands and johnny-come-latelys. The reason many operations turn out to be unviable is simply because of ruinous competition between operators (and the resulting buying of work).

In this case the type of operations which make the job more attractive for many drivers.While in the case of all those operations that do remain viable that viability is often at the expense of workers’ terms and conditions to compensate for that punitive artificial costs environment.No amount of union solidarity would fix that basic problem.

Cobblers again. Good jobs with “unviable operators” become so because they are allowed to be undercut by the “viable operators”, who are viable because they are paying less than the going rate of wages (and perhaps running bent to boot)!

Rjan:
The government policy of encouraging rail freight for base loads is simply because it is technologically more efficient.

Define ‘base loads’.When what you’re actually describing is a stated admitted deliberate government policy,of rigging the transport market,to transfer freight,which is already established in being transported ‘efficiently’ by road,onto rail.‘Rigging’ in this case being the artificial imposition of unfair road transport specific taxation and unnecessary restrictions on vehicle dimensions and weights.On that note exactly what is supposedly so different about a 26-32t rigid pulling a 45 ft drawbar trailer as opposed to tractor unit pulling a 45-50 foot semi trailer.Or for that matter why would you think that use of those combined with use of red diesel wouldn’t provide a much better chance of increasing wage levels and terms and conditions for drivers.No surprise that UNITE won’t see it that way like you being lumbered with Socialist dogma that keeps truck drivers second class workers v train drivers. :unamused:

The result being that yet again they’ll be left behind in favour of their German counterparts.

youtube.com/watch?v=0xDhKuT1JII

Carryfast:

Rjan:
The government policy of encouraging rail freight for base loads is simply because it is technologically more efficient.

Define ‘base loads’.When what you’re actually describing is a stated admitted deliberate government policy,of rigging the transport market,to transfer freight,which is already established in being transported ‘efficiently’ by road,onto rail.‘Rigging’ in this case being the artificial imposition of unfair road transport specific taxation and unnecessary restrictions on vehicle dimensions and weights.On that note exactly what is supposedly so different about a 26-32t rigid pulling a 45 ft drawbar trailer as opposed to tractor unit pulling a 45-50 foot semi trailer.Or for that matter why would you think that use of those combined with use of red diesel wouldn’t provide a much better chance of increasing wage levels and terms and conditions for drivers.No surprise that UNITE won’t see it that way like you being lumbered with Socialist dogma that keeps truck drivers second class workers v train drivers. :unamused:

youtube.com/watch?v=0xDhKuT1JII

Wages are one of the very few variables that Operators have in their armoury to fight each other with. Assuming fuel duty levels and vehicle sizes are the same for all players, then it would appear to be non sequitur to argue that lowering the duty on fuel and or increasing vehicle capacity would have any impact on wage levels. There would be no way to gain a competitive advantage by leveraging costs and restrictions that are the same for all parties surely?

Kerragy:

Carryfast:

Rjan:
The government policy of encouraging rail freight for base loads is simply because it is technologically more efficient.

Define ‘base loads’.When what you’re actually describing is a stated admitted deliberate government policy,of rigging the transport market,to transfer freight,which is already established in being transported ‘efficiently’ by road,onto rail.‘Rigging’ in this case being the artificial imposition of unfair road transport specific taxation and unnecessary restrictions on vehicle dimensions and weights.On that note exactly what is supposedly so different about a 26-32t rigid pulling a 45 ft drawbar trailer as opposed to tractor unit pulling a 45-50 foot semi trailer.Or for that matter why would you think that use of those combined with use of red diesel wouldn’t provide a much better chance of increasing wage levels and terms and conditions for drivers.No surprise that UNITE won’t see it that way like you being lumbered with Socialist dogma that keeps truck drivers second class workers v train drivers. :unamused:

youtube.com/watch?v=0xDhKuT1JII

Wages are one of the very few variables that Operators have in their armoury to fight each other with. Assuming fuel duty levels and vehicle sizes are the same for all players, then it would appear to be non sequitur to argue that lowering the duty on fuel and or increasing vehicle capacity would have any impact on wage levels. There would be no way to gain a competitive advantage by leveraging costs and restrictions that are the same for all parties surely?

The job of unions is to stop wage competition between operators.That’s the bit which all the Thatcherite indoctrination has made too many people forget.IE closed shops and secondary action are a good thing.Nor does that type of collusion between employers fit the definition of a ‘cartel’.IE an industry specific minimum wage.

None of which has anything to do with the fact that artificially limiting productivety by unnecessary vehicle dimension and weight limits and unfair road fuel taxation limits the scope for wage demands in the industry across the board.IE what’s needed is for UNITE to fight for truck drivers and the road transport industry in just the same way that ASLEF and RMT fights for train drivers and the rail industry. :bulb: The problem being that those like Rjan apply double standards in that regard which keeps truck drivers as second class workers.

Carryfast:
Define ‘base loads’.When what you’re actually describing is a stated admitted deliberate government policy,of rigging the transport market,to transfer freight,which is already established in being transported ‘efficiently’ by road,onto rail.‘Rigging’ in this case being the artificial imposition of unfair road transport specific taxation and unnecessary restrictions on vehicle dimensions and weights.On that note exactly what is supposedly so different about a 26-32t rigid pulling a 45 ft drawbar trailer as opposed to tractor unit pulling a 45-50 foot semi trailer.Or for that matter why would you think that use of those combined with use of red diesel wouldn’t provide a much better chance of increasing wage levels and terms and conditions for drivers.No surprise that UNITE won’t see it that way like you being lumbered with Socialist dogma that keeps truck drivers second class workers v train drivers. :unamused:

If you made diesel free hauliers would just do the work cheaper, there would be no extra profits and no higher wages. The haulage industry has always destroyed itself by undercutting each other until there is bugger all profit.

We’re thankfully coming out of the EU so hopefully we can dictate our own rules, so how about an entirely different approach. Treble the cost of petrol and diesel with taxation, fossil fuels are a precious resource and we should be using them more sparingly. Goods will still need moved so prices will need to go up a little to cover the higher fuel costs, there will be more money passing through the industry and a little extra in profits and wages will be a smaller part of turnover. Higher wages is more likely with higher running costs than lower running costs!

I know you worry about the railways, but they are hopeless for moving goods, in any case they are passenger orientated, and with higher fuel costs reducing the amount of cars as the rail becomes more affordable, there will be even less capacity on the rails for goods.

Think about it - higher wages and quieter roads - sounds good to me.

Bluey Circles:
If you made diesel free hauliers would just do the work cheaper, there would be no extra profits and no higher wages. The haulage industry has always destroyed itself by undercutting each other until there is bugger all profit.

We’re thankfully coming out of the EU so hopefully we can dictate our own rules, so how about an entirely different approach. Treble the cost of petrol and diesel with taxation, fossil fuels are a precious resource and we should be using them more sparingly. Goods will still need moved so prices will need to go up a little to cover the higher fuel costs, there will be more money passing through the industry and a little extra in profits and wages will be a smaller part of turnover. Higher wages is more likely with higher running costs than lower running costs!

I know you worry about the railways, but they are hopeless for moving goods, in any case they are passenger orientated, and with higher fuel costs reducing the amount of cars as the rail becomes more affordable, there will be even less capacity on the rails for goods.

Think about it - higher wages and quieter roads - sounds good to me.

We’re discussing a world in which truck drivers learn the meaning of solidarity just like their train driver counterparts.In which case a massive reduction in fuel costs ‘can’ then be translated into increased wages for drivers.But what won’t work is solidarity trying to do same against the status quo of unproductive vehicle length and weight limits combined with extortionate levels of road fuel taxation.On that note I’m guessing you mean treble the rate of road fuel duty not the cost of fuel.In which case go for it and see what happens to what remains of the road transport industry and the motor industry/trade.Not to mention household budgets when people rightly try to maintain their freedom of car use.While if you really want to impose green bs policies then at least get an electoral mandate first.Remind us what the Green vote was at the last election. :unamused: