The Carryfast engine design discussion

[carryfast]

[zb]
anorak:

cav551:
Peak Cylinder Pressure and compression pressure comparison is not the easiest thing to understand. Taking a ratio of 16 :1 we would assume that in a naturally aspirated engine that the pressure at the point the inlet valve closes is at atmospheric pressure 14.7 psi so 14.7 x16 = 235.2 psi. However that is not what one will record with a diesel compression tester. Carrying out such a test one is looking to achieve figures around 400 - 450 psi. However temperature and rpm come into play. A compression test is usually carried out either to daignose which cylinder(s) are causing an issue or why an engine is hard to start. Testing with the engine running at speed and full operating temperature is not often done for safety reasons. The closest one can get is an engine which has been run but is being motored by the starter motor. This is what one is advised to do but does not pin down a cold start problem since the readings will be higher. Stone cold at an ambient single figure Centigrade one can expect to have to accept 350+ psi as the barest minimum for a worn but not worn out engine.

However as the first image shows (at an albeit higher ambient) the theoretical pressure is significantly greater. The second image of a speed/ pressure/ crank angle with a fixed injection spill point shows a much higher peak cylinder pressure and identifies how combustion develops…

Carryfast:
Compression pressure isn’t the same thing as compression pressure + and including the pressure created by combustion.Which is the peak cylinder pressure on the power stroke at peak torque under load and you don’t have a tester strong enough to measure that.That will be measured in 10’s of Mpa not psi.Especially when forced induction is added to the compression side of the equation.

1. At what pressure- or abstract quantity which is not pressure, but is measured in the units of pressure, for no reason that we can begin to explain- do we convert from psi to MPa?

2. Is that the same non-pressure that we do not possess a pressure gauge strong enough to measure, or some other abstract value? Given that, further up the page, we read a link which showed peak combustion pressures of no more than 3xBMEP, these cut-off points must be clustered within a close range of pressures. I’ll guess at somewhere between 200psi and err… 1.0MPa.

3. That same link referred to a peak combustion pressure of 75 bar, which is 7.5 MPa. Which engines have peak pressures in the 10’s of MPa? I’ll have a guess- the BMC C Series?

Carryfast:
That’s what is then transferred to the head fastenings.

Chorus All together now,
43% specific torque deficit with a 7% leverage deficit is a lot of extra pressure factoring in your 2% piston area v leverage deficit.
Your end bearings are going to get hammered by taking the full 43% torque deficit x 7% leverage deficit regardless./quote]

10-1 Mpa instead of just saying Bar it took a magnifying glass to find the -1.

‘Further up the page’ was an NA engine comparison.

Call the turbo 320 DS 80 bar so more than 1,000 psi.

Oh wait the thing is still only putting out around 55 lbft per litre and that with a bore stroke ratio of 0.90.
How are you going to almost double that specific torque output.
How much is 1,000 psi on the area of a piston when transferred to the area of an end bearing shell and head fastenings cross sectional area.
Oh wait you don’t even believe that leverage plays any part in the torque figure.Nor can be substituted for cylinder pressure and force on the con rod.

[cav551]

Carryfast:
the pressure created by combustion.Which is the peak cylinder pressure on the power stroke at peak torque under load and you don’t have a tester strong enough to measure that.

Have a look at these graphs compliled from an indicator diagram of an n/a engine : peak cylinder pressure, BMEP, temperature, load and crank angle all shown.

The compression gauge suitable to record the pressure developed since no flame will be present wihout an injector installed.

Double click to orientate correctly.

[zb_anorak]

Carryfast:
…
The argument here has more to do with total disarray and confusion regarding the definition of ‘BMEP’ and its use.
( The same thing as Specific torque to compare different engines ).
Torque is a function of force on the piston/con rod x leverage.
The more leverage you’ve got the less force you’ll need.
The only relevance of ‘BMEP’ in this case is the TL12’s deficit in it v the Eagle.Which is its correct/only use as a comparator of different engines not cylinder pressure.
Bearing in mind that figure by definition is ‘based’ solely on Torque output which means force x distance and therefore that the Eagle’s 7% leverage advantage and TL12’s piston area deficit v leverage, will need to be factored into matching that figure with the TL12 in terms of end bearing loads and head fastening loads.
The TL12 is always going to be under 7% more pressure on its end bearings and 2% more pressure on its head fastenings for the equivalent specific torque output/BMEP figure v the Eagle.

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:
…Again you’ve forgotten, more like don’t even know, that the BMEP figure, being based on specific torque output, also includes and is based on leverage multiplication and piston area.Not just cylinder pressure.It’s also just an average not a peak…

“Based on” means nothing. “Derived from” is correct. Have you asked those kids what a derivation is yet? It does not matter if the pressure is calculated from other variables- once it is expressed as a pressure, that is what it is- the average pressure on the piston, during the combustion stroke, net of any losses. It does not matter whether the bull has been grazing on grass, beet or feed- the result is the same.

How can it be anything other than just another way of expressing specific torque.
When the figure you end up with, or start with in the case of using the 2.464 constant, is just specific torque and specific torque is a function of cylinder pressure, leverage and piston area combined.
Not just cylinder pressure.

By definition you can’t possibly derive or arrive at a cylinder pressure figure by reference to a figure derived from force x leverage and the resulting torque figure at the flywheel.
In this case the TL12 being short literally on the leverage side of the equation.Too short.

FFS^^^.

Torque T is applied to the crankshaft of a running engine, by a brake. It is reacted by a force at the big end journal, transmitted through the conn rod.

The force is equal to T/(S/2), since the torque = force x lever length. T is therefore 2 x T/S

The big end travels around half a circle of radius S/2, where S is the stroke of the engine. The distance it travels is π x S/2.

The work done over half a stroke = force x distance, = π x S/2 x 2 x T/S = π x T.

In the cylinder, the distance travelled is S, and the force is the bore area A x the Pressure P.

The work done by the piston, from TDC to BDC, is therefore S x A x P.

S A P= π . T/4

S x A is the capacity of the engine= V

P= π . T/V

The other three strokes don’t make any torque, so the average torque measured at a brake on a running engine is a quarter of the torque made in the combustion stroke.

The average pressure in the combustion stroke is therefore 4π . T/V

Pressure. In the Cylinder. Average Pressure. Real. Not imaginary.

[carryfast]

cav551:

Carryfast:
the pressure created by combustion.Which is the peak cylinder pressure on the power stroke at peak torque under load and you don’t have a tester strong enough to measure that.

Have a look at these graphs compliled from an indicator diagram of an n/a engine : peak cylinder pressure, BMEP, temperature, load and crank angle all shown.

The compression gauge suitable to record the pressure developed since no flame will be present wihout an injector installed.

Double click to orientate correctly.

Not much use then when we want to know the peak cylinder/combustion pressure.
Especially of a forced induction engine needing to make 100 lbft per litre with a 7% leverage deficit.
That’s going to be considerably more than 1,000 psi going by the supposed 80 bar graph at 55 lbft per litre.

Even in the case of an NA engine more leverage = more torque for the equivalent force on the piston/con rod applies.
That’s the smoking gun that proves that BMEP is nothing more than an over complicated way of comparing specific torque between different engines.
It won’t tell you how that torque figure was obtained either with relatively more force and relatively less leverage or relatively more leverage and relatively less force.Or whether it’s more torque for the equivalent force.
While cylinder pressure on the area of a piston is magnified massively when the resulting force is imposed on the smaller area of end bearings and head fasteners.
So use more leverage to minimise that force what’s not to like and how does a figure that just expresses specific torque a a pressure figure, differentiate torque made by more leverage instead of force/piston area/pressure.

[carryfast]

[zb]
anorak:
The other three strokes don’t make any torque, so the average torque measured at a brake on a running engine is a quarter of the torque.

So peak torque is also now an average figure.An average of exactly what figures and how many different figures.

The torque shown on the brake in this case is all of the bleedin torque made by the power strokes of 6 cylinders running at 1,200 rpm.
You don’t just lose a non existent load of torque that the engine never produced to start with.
You said it yourself the other strokes don’t do anything other than draw in the charge then compress it then push out the exhaust.Only the power stroke of each individual cylinder makes the torque figure.In this case 100 lbft per litre so around 200 lbft per cylinder at 1,200 rpm.
That’s why the amount of force applied during the power stroke is a lot.
Maximising the leverage side of the torque equation of each cylinder obviously minimises the amount of force needed for the equivalent torque.

So tell us how does just peak torque per litre x 2.464 provide your supposed ‘average’ cylinder pressure.

How would any so called resulting ‘average’ cylinder pressure mean anything anyway when it contains a massive peak pressure figure and the less leverage you’ve got as a force multiplier the more force you’ll need to make the equivalent torque and it’s that peak pressure, combined with the extra force you’ll need to place on the con rod, which is going to wreck your AEC short stroke piece of junk to match the Eagle’s 100 lbft per litre.

One person lives to 100 another lives to 30 that’s an average age of 65.The average figure means exactly and specifically what in terms of their respective ages and health indicators ?.The square root of fa that’s what.
That’s even if BMEP meant an average cylinder pressure let alone average torque figure which it doesnt.

It means specific peak torque based on the peak torque figure measured at the flywheel.
Where else would you read it from.That figure being based on the peak torque output of all cylinders combined at whatever rpm.Only their respective power strokes produces any torque.
The expansion of the power stroke being based on a massive peak pressure and resulting force on the piston and con rod and head fastenings not a sustained imaginary equal shove throughout the stroke.WTF have all the other useless strokes got to do with the result.

[zb_anorak]

Carryfast:

cav551:

Carryfast:
the pressure created by combustion.Which is the peak cylinder pressure on the power stroke at peak torque under load and you don’t have a tester strong enough to measure that.

Have a look at these graphs compliled from an indicator diagram of an n/a engine : peak cylinder pressure, BMEP, temperature, load and crank angle all shown.

The compression gauge suitable to record the pressure developed since no flame will be present wihout an injector installed.

Double click to orientate correctly.

Not much use then when we want to know the peak cylinder/combustion pressure.
Especially of a forced induction engine needing to make 100 lbft per litre with a 7% leverage deficit.
That’s going to be considerably more than 1,000 psi going by the supposed 80 bar graph at 55 lbft per litre.

Even in the case of an NA engine more leverage = more torque for the equivalent force on the piston/con rod applies.
That’s the smoking gun that proves that BMEP is nothing more than an over complicated way of comparing specific torque between different engines.
It won’t tell you how that torque figure was obtained either with relatively more force and relatively less leverage or relatively more leverage and relatively less force.Or whether it’s more torque for the equivalent force.
While cylinder pressure on the area of a piston is magnified massively when the resulting force is imposed on the smaller area of end bearings and head fasteners.
So use more leverage to minimise that force what’s not to like and how does a figure that just expresses specific torque a a pressure figure, differentiate torque made by more leverage instead of force/piston area/pressure.

Is a pressure. See earlier. Why would it be called a pressure? Do you think engineers make up daft words to describe down-to-earth things, like lawyers do?

[zb_anorak]

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
The other three strokes don’t make any torque, so the average torque measured at a brake on a running engine is a quarter of the torque.

So peak torque is also now an average figure.An average of exactly what figures and how many different figures.

The torque shown on the brake in this case is all of the bleedin torque made by the power strokes of 6 cylinders running at 1,200 rpm.
You don’t just lose a non existent load of torque that the engine never produced to start with.
You said it yourself the other strokes don’t do anything other than draw in the charge then compress it then push out the exhaust.Only the power stroke of each individual cylinder makes the torque figure.In this case 100 lbft per litre so around 200 lbft per cylinder at 1,200 rpm.
That’s why the amount of force applied during the power stroke is a lot.
Maximising the leverage side of the torque equation of each cylinder obviously minimises the amount of force needed for the equivalent torque.

So tell us how does just peak torque per litre x 2.464 provide your supposed ‘average’ cylinder pressure.

How would any so called resulting ‘average’ cylinder pressure mean anything anyway when it contains a massive peak pressure figure and the less leverage you’ve got as a force multiplier the more force you’ll need to make the equivalent torque and it’s that peak pressure, combined with the extra force you’ll need to place on the con rod, which is going to wreck your AEC short stroke piece of junk to match the Eagle’s 100 lbft per litre.

One person lives to 100 another lives to 30 that’s an average age of 65.The average figure means exactly and specifically what in terms of their respective ages and health indicators ?.The square root of fa that’s what.
That’s even if BMEP meant an average cylinder pressure let alone average torque figure which it doesnt.

It means specific peak torque based on the peak torque figure measured at the flywheel.
Where else would you read it from.That figure being based on the peak torque output of all cylinders combined at whatever rpm.Only their respective power strokes produces any torque.
The expansion of the power stroke being based on a massive peak pressure and resulting force on the piston and con rod and head fastenings not a sustained imaginary equal shove throughout the stroke.WTF have all the other useless strokes got to do with the result.

Hahahahaaa!! That’s a derivation that every student of IC engines learns in the first week, and you’ve just rubbished it.

[carryfast]

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:
BMEP is nothing more than an over complicated way of comparing specific torque between different engines.
Is a pressure. See earlier. Why would it be called a pressure? Do you think engineers make up daft words to describe down-to-earth things, like lawyers do?

Make up is exactly what BMEP is.It’s specific torque nothing more nothing less.
100 lbft per litre measured at the flywheel x 2.464 = 246.4 psi BMEP.
246.4 psi divided by 2.464 = 100 lbft per litre of 'engine capacity ‘measured at the flywheel’.

All the torque measured at the flywheel is obtained by the combined force x distance equation of ALL the cylinders.In this case at whatever rpm peak torque is developed at.
You don’t divide it by ‘cylinder’ capacity to get specific torque you divide it by engine capacity.

If it was cylinder capacity it would obviously be torque per cylinder ( capacity ) ( 2 litres + ) not torque per litre.
Per litre obviously means nothing in the case of a 2+ litre cylinder.
It does mean something in the case of peak torque output, at the flywheel, divided by engine capacity, not cylinder capacity.Why would you even bother with cylinder capacity in that calculation.

What has any of that that got to do with the other 3 strokes which provide no torque at all.
What do you mean by only ‘‘one quarter’’ of ‘‘the torque’’ is measured by the dyno.

You’ve got to put enough force into the con rod x the leverage of the stroke during the power stroke to provide all the torque required as shown on the dyno.

Less stroke = more force required which is obviously imposed on end bearings.Possibly also head fastenings depending on piston area.All obviously at a much higher psi than imposed on the piston area.It’s not rocket science.

It’s obvious that if we’re going to take 80 bar ( that’s more than 1,000 psi not 2 x BMEP ) as a realistic peak cylinder pressure to provide 55 lbft per litre with a 120 mm stroke you’re going to need a lot more than that amount of force to provide almost double that torque output with just 18% more leverage.

It’s all about the peak pressure figures and you only use specific torque to compare engines.
BMEP being just a pointless red herring in that regard.

Oh and 1,000 + psi is on the piston area obviously massively more than that when that’s imposed on the area of an end bearing shell or head bolts cross section.

[carryfast]

[zb]
anorak:
Hahahahaaa!! That’s a derivation that every student of IC engines learns in the first week, and you’ve just rubbished it.

Unless they can answer the question as to how does a figure clearly based on piston area and cylinder pressure x leverage divided by engine capacity in the form of specific torque x the constant 2.464 some how magically get ‘derived’ into just a literal cylinder pressure figure no longer subject to the laws of leverage.
Let alone the fact that it’s the peak cylinder pressure which is going to blow your head gasket not a non existent average of non existent pressure figures.
Yep absolutely trashed it.

[zb_anorak]

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
Hahahahaaa!! That’s a derivation that every student of IC engines learns in the first week, and you’ve just rubbished it.

Unless they can answer the question as to how does a figure clearly based on piston area and cylinder pressure x leverage divided by engine capacity in the form of specific torque x the constant 2.464 some how magically get ‘derived’ into just a literal cylinder pressure figure no longer subject to the laws of leverage.
Let alone the fact that it’s the peak cylinder pressure which is going to blow your head gasket not a non existent average of non existent pressure figures.
Yep absolutely trashed it.

You can’t argue with basic algebra. The steps are logical and beyond discussion. All of the variables are taken into account, so there’s no “Yes but no but leverage piston area…” blah blah etc. Note that there is no 2.464 magic number. You have been smoking the wrong stuff if you think a knowledge of random numbers wins any prizes here.

Of course the peak pressure is more useful- I said so miles back. I also said that, without measured peak pressure, all you can do is take BMEP and multiply it by a ratio typical of that type of engine. The example further back was about 3:1 (75 bar peak, estimated 25 bar BMEP, typical of current engines). For the purposes of a fatigue calculation on your beloved head bolts, a lower figure would take into account the fact that the engine will be working at part load most of the time- say 2x BMEP. I may have estimated that figure before LOL. If you have none of that, and are comparing similar engines, then the best you can do is compare the BMEPs of them. If you are concerned with head bolt fatigue, it’s BMEP x A for the comparison. An 8% difference in bore area, between two engines, is nothing. Your entire stance against the TL12 is founded on compressive overload, because its bore is 8% bigger than that of the RR Eagle Diesel- what a stupid argument. How do you know what size the head bolts are? How do you know what the gudgeon pin journal diameter is? You know none of those other parameters. You even think that ordinary maths can be “trashed” to suit your fantasies. 2+2=5? No problem.

[carryfast]

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
Hahahahaaa!! That’s a derivation that every student of IC engines learns in the first week, and you’ve just rubbished it.

Unless they can answer the question as to how does a figure clearly based on piston area and cylinder pressure x leverage divided by engine capacity in the form of specific torque x the constant 2.464 some how magically get ‘derived’ into just a literal cylinder pressure figure no longer subject to the laws of leverage.
Let alone the fact that it’s the peak cylinder pressure which is going to blow your head gasket not a non existent average of non existent pressure figures.
Yep absolutely trashed it.

You can’t argue with basic algebra. The steps are logical and beyond discussion. All of the variables are taken into account, so there’s no “Yes but no but leverage piston area…” blah blah etc. Note that there is no 2.464 magic number. You have been smoking the wrong stuff if you think a knowledge of random numbers wins any prizes here.

Of course the peak pressure is more useful- I said so miles back. I also said that, without measured peak pressure, all you can do is take BMEP and multiply it by a ratio typical of that type of engine. The example further back was about 3:1 (75 bar peak, estimated 25 bar BMEP, typical of current engines). For the purposes of a fatigue calculation on your beloved head bolts, a lower figure would take into account the fact that the engine will be working at part load most of the time- say 2x BMEP. I may have estimated that figure before LOL. If you have none of that, and are comparing similar engines, then the best you can do is compare the BMEPs of them. If you are concerned with head bolt fatigue, it’s BMEP x A for the comparison. An 8% difference in bore area, between two engines, is nothing. Your entire stance against the TL12 is founded on compressive overload, because its bore is 8% bigger than that of the RR Eagle Diesel- what a stupid argument. How do you know what size the head bolts are? How do you know what the gudgeon pin journal diameter is? You know none of those other parameters. You even think that ordinary maths can be “trashed” to suit your fantasies. 2+2=5? No problem.

I haven’t trashed any maths.
Your ‘maths’ are based on garbage in garbage out.
You know like the torque reading on the dyno is only a quarter of the torque output.
Also unless you want to argue that 100 lbft per litre isn’t based on the peak torque output at the flywheel divided by engine capacity x 2.464 = 246.4 BMEP = 100 lbft per litre.
Also that you can make up a 43% deficit in specific torque with a 7% deficit in leverage without wrecking your engine.
Good luck with that.

[bewick]

I’ve got to say Lads that this is some ■■■■■■■ thread of some ■■■■■■■ duration ! It really should be consigned to a Scientific Journal site or similar IMHO as if someone logging onto TNUK for the first time landed onto this thread they would quite rightly believe they had logged onto a completely different site than TNUK and possibly the backside of The Moon or “The World is Flat Society” Leatherhead Chapter !

[zb_anorak]

Bewick:
I’ve got to say Lads that this is some [zb] thread of some [zb] duration ! It really should be consigned to a Scientific Journal site or similar IMHO as if someone logging onto TNUK for the first time landed onto this thread they would quite rightly believe they had logged onto a completely different site than TNUK and possibly the backside of The Moon or “The World is Flat Society” Leatherhead Chapter !

We’re making some progress, boss. Earlier- much earlier- we had half-moon bearings on the conn rods, because the loads were only ever in one direction. It took about 20 pages to repair that fault.

[bewick]

[zb]
anorak:

Bewick:
I’ve got to say Lads that this is some [zb] thread of some [zb] duration ! It really should be consigned to a Scientific Journal site or similar IMHO as if someone logging onto TNUK for the first time landed onto this thread they would quite rightly believe they had logged onto a completely different site than TNUK and possibly the backside of The Moon or “The World is Flat Society” Leatherhead Chapter !

We’re making some progress, boss. Earlier- much earlier- we had half-moon bearings on the conn rods, because the loads were only ever in one direction. It took about 20 pages to repair that fault.

Well I reckon I can foresee The Booker prize for literature or possibly our “learned” Member from Leatherhead could be nominated for next years Nobel prize and the attendant substantial monetary award ££££££ and NO he wont be sharing as he was responsible for most of the content of the Thread even if 99% of what he has written is bollox !

[dave_docwra]

Bewick:

[zb]
anorak:

Bewick:
I’ve got to say Lads that this is some [zb] thread of some [zb] duration ! It really should be consigned to a Scientific Journal site or similar IMHO as if someone logging onto TNUK for the first time landed onto this thread they would quite rightly believe they had logged onto a completely different site than TNUK and possibly the backside of The Moon or “The World is Flat Society” Leatherhead Chapter !

We’re making some progress, boss. Earlier- much earlier- we had half-moon bearings on the conn rods, because the loads were only ever in one direction. It took about 20 pages to repair that fault.

Well I reckon I can foresee The Booker prize for literature or possibly our “learned” Member from Leatherhead could be nominated for next years Nobel prize and the attendant substantial monetary award ££££££ and NO he wont be sharing as he was responsible for most of the content of the Thread even if 99% of what he has written is bollox !

Dennis I see you are really starting to warm to our learned friend, maybe you two can get together for a bbq when we are in better times. Dave …

[coomsey]

It’s by far, the most entertaining topic on here ever ! What’s it about n what’s trying to be proved evades me for the time. I’m hoping all will be revealed in the fullness of time. Mind you I held the same opinion with the Sopranos !!!■■?

[carryfast]

coomsey:
What’s it about n what’s trying to be proved evades me for the time. I’m hoping all will be revealed in the fullness of time. Mind you I held the same opinion with the Sopranos !!!■■?

It’s simple enough.That the TL12 would blow its head gasket or wear out its ends within its warranty period or soon after because not enough leverage to make the equivalent torque figures v TD120 and RR Eagle.

[zb_anorak]

coomsey:
It’s by far, the most entertaining topic on here ever ! What’s it about n what’s trying to be proved evades me for the time. I’m hoping all will be revealed in the fullness of time. Mind you I held the same opinion with the Sopranos !!!■■?

I’m Temper Tantrum Tony, cav551 is Sensible Silvio and the Loon is Uncle Phil. Here he is complaining that the stroke on his car is too short, and the crank bearings are being hammered to death:
youtube.com/watch?v=BlUM887Cuus

[coomsey]

[zb]
anorak:

coomsey:
It’s by far, the most entertaining topic on here ever ! What’s it about n what’s trying to be proved evades me for the time. I’m hoping all will be revealed in the fullness of time. Mind you I held the same opinion with the Sopranos !!!■■?

I’m Temper Tantrum Tony, cav551 is Sensible Silvio and the Loon is Uncle Phil. Here he is complaining that the stroke on his car is too short, and the crank bearings are being hammered to death:
youtube.com/watch?v=BlUM887Cuus

[bewick]

dave docwra:

Bewick:

[zb]
anorak:

Bewick:
I’ve got to say Lads that this is some [zb] thread of some [zb] duration ! It really should be consigned to a Scientific Journal site or similar IMHO as if someone logging onto TNUK for the first time landed onto this thread they would quite rightly believe they had logged onto a completely different site than TNUK and possibly the backside of The Moon or “The World is Flat Society” Leatherhead Chapter !

We’re making some progress, boss. Earlier- much earlier- we had half-moon bearings on the conn rods, because the loads were only ever in one direction. It took about 20 pages to repair that fault.

Well I reckon I can foresee The Booker prize for literature or possibly our “learned” Member from Leatherhead could be nominated for next years Nobel prize and the attendant substantial monetary award ££££££ and NO he wont be sharing as he was responsible for most of the content of the Thread even if 99% of what he has written is bollox !

Dennis I see you are really starting to warm to our learned friend, maybe you two can get together for a bbq when we are in better times. Dave …

Now steady on Dave I might be going a bit senile in my “older” age but I’m defo not as “far gone” as “CF” in his secure accommodation in Leatherhead where I can imagine Matron now having to up Geoffrey’s dose of Bromide as because of lockdown he can no longer be escorted along to the pond in the park to feed the ducks every day ! Cheers Dennis.