ROG:
I think you might have meant to look at the differences between EU tacho regs and the RTD instead of RTD and WTD - yes?
Those under EU tacho regs will be under RTD
Those on UK domestic regs will be under WTD
The point I was trying to get to was that there is a distinction between, say, a driver who is engaged in long haul driving and one who pootles around a 20 mile radius of their depot. In the case of the long(er) haul driver, they are not going to be concerned with the six hour rule as they will be stopped out by their 4.5hr driving time.
So now Rog, you’ve thrown something else up into the air and if I am correct in my assumption, you are saying that WTD does not apply to EU regs. Or am I reading you wrong?
The normal WTD does not apply to those on EU regs
The RTD does apply to those on EU regs
The point I was trying to get to was that there is a distinction between, say, a driver who is engaged in long haul driving and one who pootles around a 20 mile radius of their depot. In the case of the long(er) haul driver, they are not going to be concerned with the six hour rule as they will be stopped out by their 4.5hr driving time.
That is a good point
IMO the only good thing is the 6 hour working time rule which could have been added to the EU regs to give those under EU regs doing less than 4.5 hours driving in a shift legally enforceable breaks otherwise they could legally do 15 hours with no breaks
And then of course you get drivers who fall between the two stools in relation to driving and working time and it’s hardly surprising there is confusion. I am surprised that digital tacho’s have not evolved more in line with the speed that technology has because if it had, then it would make things a whole lot easier for drivers knowing exactly where they are in relation to weekly driving hours, weekly rest, en bloc pay back, fortnightly driving etc etc etc.
I am going to have to go and have a read around about your WTD comments Rog as my little brain is struggling at the moment.
Lusk:
And then of course you get drivers who fall between the two stools in relation to driving and working time and it’s hardly surprising there is confusion. I am surprised that digital tacho’s have not evolved more in line with the speed that technology has because if it had, then it would make things a whole lot easier for drivers knowing exactly where they are in relation to weekly driving hours, weekly rest, en bloc pay back, fortnightly driving etc etc etc.
I am going to have to go and have a read around about your WTD comments Rog as my little brain is struggling at the moment.
Masses of software can be programmed into a tiny mobile phone so why the relevant stuff is not programmed into a digi tacho is beyond me !!
Google Working time Directive and then google Road Transport Working Time Directive to see the differences
Look for the wording ‘entitled to’ in the WTD because that does not mean MUST HAVE
If companies believe it’s 30 mins instead of 15 mins why are people arguing over it ,I mean they don’t like you to sit a minute more than you need too,so if there’s a extra 15 mins relax time to be had I’m certainly not going to argue with them,take what you can
Its interesting that this subject keeps coming up. As a new, but aged, driver I have been told in no uncertain terms that I am wrong in my interpretation of the RTWTR as taught to me by my CPC instructor. Having being repeatedly talked at by the experienced guys who tell me that I need to take a 30 min break before exceeding 6 hours I decided to call my local VOSA office and ask the “inspectors” for their interpretation. One verbally and another by e-mail “confirmed” that its was their belief that I should take 30 mins before exceeding six hours, they added they would ask me to take a further 15 mins if they stopped me after 6 hours duty time and I had only taken 15 previously. In my reply I suggested that the subject be raised at an official level as there appeared to be differing interpretations amongst drivers.
I actually agree with Rog in that I think the RTWTR 6 hour rules are clearly written and easily understood, but so many seem to mis-interpret them.
Breaks: Workers must have a break after 6 hours.
A break of 30 minutes is required for 6-9 hours work; 45 minutes for over 9 hours. Breaks can be divided into 15 minute slots.
Where mixed driving and working is carried out, the drivers’ hours rules on breaks (EC 561/2006) take precedence.
Breaks: Workers must have a break after 6 hours.
A break of 30 minutes is required for 6-9 hours work; 45 minutes for over 9 hours. Breaks can be divided into 15 minute slots.
Where mixed driving and working is carried out, the drivers’ hours rules on breaks (EC 561/2006) take precedence.
a limit of an average of 48 hours a week which a worker can be required to work
(though workers can choose to work more if they want to).
also from the same site
Breaks: Workers must have a break after 6 hours.
A break of 30 minutes is required for 6-9 hours work; 45 minutes for over 9 hours. Breaks can be divided into 15 minute slots.
Where mixed driving and working is carried out, the drivers’ hours rules on breaks (EC 561/2006) take precedence.
a limit of an average of 48 hours a week which a worker can be required to work
(though workers can choose to work more if they want to).
also from the same site
Yep, I think you are getting muddled up with the WTD which applies to white-van man/GB Domestic Regs. driver (non-tacho drivers)…this is also covered on this website, thus:
Four provisions will affect drivers who fall outside the scope of the sector specific directive - i.e. drivers of smaller vehicles and drivers of other vehicles that are exempt from the EU drivers’ hours rules. These provisions are;
the 48 hour average working week,
the requirement to have four weeks paid annual leave,
regular health checks for night workers, and
the need for “adequate rest”.
Under this amending directive workers are allowed to opt-out of the 48 hour average working week.
As I said there is no opt out for RTD-covered drivers, they can of course do more than 48 hours work in a week, so long as 60 hours work maximum is adhered to & the average is brought down to 48 hours. I think this site credits DfT as it’s source!!!
Sorry guys, please humour me here but I am still confused…
I’m fine with the regulations themselves but what has thrown me is that a few weeks back I saw a league table in a transport company which showed tacho infringements by driver. From memory, there were three colums; the first was percentage of infringements, the second was RTD and the third was WTD. RTD I am taking to be EU drivers hours rules, is this correct? And WTD I thought was the Working Time Directive which it appears you are now saying is NOT part of EU drivers hours, is this correct? So where then does the 48 hour collective agreemment opt out come into it?
RTD regs. are NOT the same as EU Drivers’ Hours BUT in addition to them - basically anyone using tacho’s (digital or analogue) must adhere to RTD - whether driving in-scope vehicles or doing other duties i.e. either a full-time LGV driver or a factory operative who drives a 7.5 tonner in afternoons. It is designed to ensure ANY staff with driving duties don’t do a full shift in the yard & then ‘just nip to Glasgow at 4pm’.
Ultimately to protect staff from exploitation & tiredness(hopefully) - it is non-negotiable & non-opt outable!!
WTD is the general Working Time Directive for non-EU Regs driving staff & other workers. Some elements of this are opt outable, such as the 60 hour maximum working time per week & the 48 hour average. This would apply to dustbin lorry drivers, white-van man or indeed a shelf-stacker or waitress. The difference…they CAN opt out of the WTD limits.
RTD regs. are NOT the same as EU Drivers’ Hours BUT in addition to them - basically anyone using tacho’s (digital or analogue) must adhere to RTD - whether driving in-scope vehicles or doing other duties i.e. either a full-time LGV driver or a factory operative who drives a 7.5 tonner in afternoons. It is designed to ensure ANY staff with driving duties don’t do a full shift in the yard & then ‘just nip to Glasgow at 4pm’.
Ultimately to protect staff from exploitation & tiredness(hopefully) - it is non-negotiable & non-opt outable!!
WTD is the general Working Time Directive for non-EU Regs driving staff & other workers. Some elements of this are opt outable, such as the 60 hour maximum working time per week & the 48 hour average. This would apply to dustbin lorry drivers, white-van man or indeed a shelf-stacker or waitress. The difference…they CAN opt out of the WTD limits.
Hope this helps
Thanks.
But why then was I told that where I sub from that the employed drivers have opted out through this collective agreement?
So is it true to say then Rog (& co) that when drivers are under EU hours, they can forget all about WTD? In addition, when people speak about EU drivers and the six hour break rule and mention WTD they actually mean RTD?
Lusk:
So is it true to say then Rog (& co) that when drivers are under EU hours, they can forget all about WTD? In addition, when people speak about EU drivers and the six hour break rule and mention WTD they actually mean RTD?
I will say that I’ve heard of all sorts that ‘think’ they can ‘opt out’ of RTD - there are no exemptions - apart from as ROG states the option not to enforce the 10 hour max. working hours on a night shift (by collective agreement or workforce agreement). There used to be an exemption for genuine self-employed drivers - but this exemption was withdrawn in 2011.
The misconceptions range from ‘It doesn’t apply to us - we’re only a small firm’. Or ‘We don’t drive wagons that often’ - this is partially who the RTD is aimed at. Or ‘We’ve signed a bit of paper to opt out’…all nonsense!!!
,I mean they don’t like you to sit a minute more than you need too,so if there’s a extra 15 mins relax time to be had I’m certainly not going to argue with them,take what you can 
