Suttons Tankers Dispute

[bobbya]

adam277:

Olog Hai:
What is even more bizarre is that one poster in this thread regards it as ‘reasonable’ behaviour on Suttons’ part.

Correct! but like I said I don’t know the full story only going by what is mentioned in this thread. If Nynas(think thats what they are called) have decided on paying lower rates then Sutton will be out of pocket due to reduced revenue.
Also I doubt most of you know the full story either.

I may be wrong I’ve only dealt in the pallet/parcel business but I’ve seen this happen before. Contractor at a well known parcel company got told your only getting £200 per truck you have here a day when it used to be £250 a day. He turned round and said fine I’ll pull my trucks out then and he lost the contract and all his drivers lost a job.
The contractor couldn’t afford to run 10 trucks a day and pay his drivers so he decided to leave; that extra £50 was pretty much what he made for himself the £200 is ■■■■■■■ in the trucks and driver wages.

If this is similar to the situation at Suttons then it does sound reasonable; considering the alternative will be job losses. THAT BEING SAID I and probably most of the people here don’t know the full story and this is just my initial thoughts on the affair.
I will say I’m not a big fan of going back to the union days of the 70s like some of you no doubt are when black outs and shortages in food and petrol due to strikes was common place.

Here is a meaningless platitude to appease the angry crowd.
BOOOOOO BIG COMPANIES SCREWING THE DRIVERS!

You really don’t appreciate what the unions have done for us over the years do you you’re not alone it’s all taken for granted,for instance this year I will get thirty days holiday,that would never have happened without unions,what I’ll do with thirty days god knows,but I’ll have it,thank you.

[toonsy]

bobbya:

adam277:

Olog Hai:
What is even more bizarre is that one poster in this thread regards it as ‘reasonable’ behaviour on Suttons’ part.

Correct! but like I said I don’t know the full story only going by what is mentioned in this thread. If Nynas(think thats what they are called) have decided on paying lower rates then Sutton will be out of pocket due to reduced revenue.
Also I doubt most of you know the full story either.

I may be wrong I’ve only dealt in the pallet/parcel business but I’ve seen this happen before. Contractor at a well known parcel company got told your only getting £200 per truck you have here a day when it used to be £250 a day. He turned round and said fine I’ll pull my trucks out then and he lost the contract and all his drivers lost a job.
The contractor couldn’t afford to run 10 trucks a day and pay his drivers so he decided to leave; that extra £50 was pretty much what he made for himself the £200 is ■■■■■■■ in the trucks and driver wages.

If this is similar to the situation at Suttons then it does sound reasonable; considering the alternative will be job losses. THAT BEING SAID I and probably most of the people here don’t know the full story and this is just my initial thoughts on the affair.
I will say I’m not a big fan of going back to the union days of the 70s like some of you no doubt are when black outs and shortages in food and petrol due to strikes was common place.

Here is a meaningless platitude to appease the angry crowd.
BOOOOOO BIG COMPANIES SCREWING THE DRIVERS!

You really don’t appreciate what the unions have done for us over the years do you you’re not alone it’s all taken for granted,for instance this year I will get thirty days holiday,that would never have happened without unions,what I’ll do with thirty days god knows,but I’ll have it,thank you.

I agree unions have done good things over the years but the right to PAID holiday was an EU thing. The UK actually fought against the right to PAID holidays at the time

[olog_hai]

adam277:
I may be wrong I’ve only dealt in the pallet/parcel business but I’ve seen this happen before. Contractor at a well known parcel company got told your only getting £200 per truck you have here a day when it used to be £250 a day. He turned round and said fine I’ll pull my trucks out then and he lost the contract and all his drivers lost a job.
The contractor couldn’t afford to run 10 trucks a day and pay his drivers so he decided to leave; that extra £50 was pretty much what he made for himself the £200 is ■■■■■■■ in the trucks and driver wages.

Oh. Well. I take back everything I said. In fact, the Suttons drivers should be pleased that a pay cut is on the cards. What would you do if your gaffer said that he was taking a quid an hour off you? From what you’ve told us so far the answer would be ‘OK boss. That sounds… reasonable.’

adam277:
I will say I’m not a big fan of going back to the union days of the 70s like some of you no doubt are when black outs and shortages in food and petrol due to strikes was common place.

The days of the what? You’ve posted elsewhere that you’re 25 years old. You wouldn’t know what the 1970s were like if they came back and kicked you in the ■■■■■■■■.

[robroy]

adam277:

Olog Hai:
What is even more bizarre is that one poster in this thread regards it as ‘reasonable’ behaviour on Suttons’ part.

Correct! but like I said I don’t know the full story only going by what is mentioned in this thread. If Nynas(think thats what they are called) have decided on paying lower rates then Sutton will be out of pocket due to reduced revenue.
Also I doubt most of you know the full story either.

I may be wrong I’ve only dealt in the pallet/parcel business but I’ve seen this happen before. Contractor at a well known parcel company got told your only getting £200 per truck you have here a day when it used to be £250 a day. He turned round and said fine I’ll pull my trucks out then and he lost the contract and all his drivers lost a job.
The contractor couldn’t afford to run 10 trucks a day and pay his drivers so he decided to leave; that extra £50 was pretty much what he made for himself the £200 is ■■■■■■■ in the trucks and driver wages.

If this is similar to the situation at Suttons then it does sound reasonable; considering the alternative will be job losses. THAT BEING SAID I and probably most of the people here don’t know the full story and this is just my initial thoughts on the affair.
I will say I’m not a big fan of going back to the union days of the 70s like some of you no doubt are when black outs and shortages in food and petrol due to strikes was common place.

Here is a meaningless platitude to appease the angry crowd.
BOOOOOO BIG COMPANIES SCREWING THE DRIVERS!

Haulage has always been cut throat competitive from year dot mate, it’s the nature of the beast.

This new tactic is just trying to force a contractor’s hand, by playing on the perception that many workers/drivers will accept any ■■■■ old crap from their employers.
It looks this time they have bitten off more than they can chew by underestimating Sutton’s drivers…once more if Suttons had anything about them., they would have called their bluff by saying ‘‘That is our rate, anything less it aint worth doing’’

As for your stereotypical view on Unions: …ie the 70s chestnut …believe me mate NO ONE wants to go back to those days, that is the far end of the spectrum when they got too much power and things went too far, the lunatics took over the asylum…It does not have to be that way, there is always a happy medium

[muckles]

toonsy:
I agree unions have done good things over the years but the right to PAID holiday was an EU thing. The UK actually fought against the right to PAID holidays at the time

Do you believe that was done purely out of the goodness of the EU leaders hearts?
It was due to pressure from Unions and other workers organisations across Europe.

The recent cases of companies like Uber being taken to court over employment rights both in the UK and ECJ, do you think the workers who brought the cases worked alone?

[muckles]

adam277:

Olog Hai:
What is even more bizarre is that one poster in this thread regards it as ‘reasonable’ behaviour on Suttons’ part.

Correct! but like I said I don’t know the full story only going by what is mentioned in this thread. If Nynas(think thats what they are called) have decided on paying lower rates then Sutton will be out of pocket due to reduced revenue.
Also I doubt most of you know the full story either.

I may be wrong I’ve only dealt in the pallet/parcel business but I’ve seen this happen before. Contractor at a well known parcel company got told your only getting £200 per truck you have here a day when it used to be £250 a day. He turned round and said fine I’ll pull my trucks out then and he lost the contract and all his drivers lost a job.
The contractor couldn’t afford to run 10 trucks a day and pay his drivers so he decided to leave; that extra £50 was pretty much what he made for himself the £200 is ■■■■■■■ in the trucks and driver wages.

If this is similar to the situation at Suttons then it does sound reasonable; considering the alternative will be job losses. THAT BEING SAID I and probably most of the people here don’t know the full story and this is just my initial thoughts on the affair.
I will say I’m not a big fan of going back to the union days of the 70s like some of you no doubt are when black outs and shortages in food and petrol due to strikes was common place.

Here is a meaningless platitude to appease the angry crowd.
BOOOOOO BIG COMPANIES SCREWING THE DRIVERS!

Firstly I actually admire you, well done for sticking to your guns, I think you’re wrong though.

I agree we don’t know the exact situation with Suttons contract at Nynas, so we’ll leave that, except to say if the Suttons Tanker workers lose, what’s to stop Nynas going in next year and pushing to reduce rates again knowing that Suttons can make the savings by changing the pay and conditions of the workforce and so the downward spiral continues.

I not a fan of going back to the 70’s, I was too young to be involved at the time and don’t want to do the same now, but I’m also not a fan of the employer/worker balance we have today.
I’m not a fan of workers feeling they have to accept worse terms and conditions than my parents worked under.
I’m not a fan of workers feeling forced or bribed into setting themselves up as ltd companies, so employers can get out of the obligations to holiday pay, sick pay, redundancy pay, etc.
I’m not a fan of zero hours contracts, where workers don’t know if they have work each day, that type of employment should have died out in the 1930’s.
I don’t want to go back and I don’t want to remain where we are now, I want things to improve and those improvements aren’t going to be given willingly.

[cav551]

Going back to the '70s the dispute probably would have ended because back the the T&G would have declared Mnama’s (or whatever their name is) product Black so no other reputable firm would have handled it.

That aforementioned disgusting vegetable started something and we are all still having to live with the consequences.

[rob22888]

As heart warming as it might be seeing drivers sticking together & engaging in a fight to protect their wages, lets face it… we all know it won’t work in the end.

Suttons will either end up losing the contract because they can’t lower their rates or pull out because it’s no longer viable. Then the ‘logistics solutions’ mob like Wincantski will be all over the job like flies round ■■■■.

The drivers will always end up losing.

[carryfast]

robroy:
As for your stereotypical view on Unions: …ie the 70s chestnut …believe me mate NO ONE wants to go back to those days, that is the far end of the spectrum when they got too much power and things went too far, the lunatics took over the asylum…It does not have to be that way, there is always a happy medium

You’re contradicting yourself.There is no such thing as a ‘happy medium’ when it comes to the need for strike action and solidarity at a picket line.

Then or now the employer says take it or leave it.What’s the difference and what’s your third way ‘happy medium’ going to be when it’s a clear binary choice of either strike or take the offer.The only difference in the 1970’s being that the unions were far more organised and solid in their actions together with respect of picket lines by all concerned and not acting like turkeys voting for Christmas, thereby making that action more effective.On that note it’s clear that they won’t be able to picket any site where they aren’t directly employed because that will breach secondary action laws.Nor would they probably find enough support at the line even if they do because too many will view it as the same ‘militant’ action that you’re saying you don’t want brought back.Meaning that the strike is lost before it’s even begun.So who gains from that ‘happy medium’ situation.

[merseycool]

Can I first of all thank those of you that have posted positive comments of support to these workers, who are prepared to get off their knees and fight for what they believe is right and what the rest of drivers in this industry should be being paid.

I don’t want to go into too much detail at present as sensitive talks are still ongoing in order for the union to do it’s very best to avert this strike action.

Just to give an insight as to these proposals, The drivers are fighting to retain what their forefathers suffered the pain to achieve and the company are proposing to reduce their rates of pay by 32.9% Just one element in their terms and conditions that I will enlighten you all to at this time to give you a flavour of whats taking place. These workers currently have in their agreement, a death in service policy payable to their family if they die whilst in employment which is currently £100,000 the company are looking to ■■■■■ this to £10,000 The drivers pay into this scheme themselves and it is an insurance policy anyway so no saving for the company there.

Let us understand the strategy that these tuppence halfpenny hauliers adopt when bidding for these contracts. They bid at the lowest price in order to get the contract on the proviso that they will then attack the workers terms and conditions together with pay rates during the term of the contract.

Nynas is a Swedish owned company and operate the Refinery at Eastham in a joint partnership with the Oil giant Shell. These companies are raking in billions, make no mistake about that !

Suttons couldn’t even explain to the union reps what the savings were, that they were looking to make. On that basis, their agenda is clear, they simply want to attack these workers terms and conditions and join the race to the bottom.

One manager at the plant recently said to a driver, I come to work with a shirt & tie and you don’t deserve to paid more that me. That is their ideology !!!

These workers are united 100% The fight is on, United we stand, Divided we beg, these workers are no beggars. They had the balls to organise and are prepared to stand up to the bully boy bosses. Some on here working in this industry need to understand before criticising others that YOU are highly skilled workers, doing an extremely difficult job, for which you should be handsomely. But let’s get real, the boss isn’t coming to give you a pay rise anytime soon because he loves you. YOU have to organise and fight him for what is right, "A fair day’s pay, for a fairs day’s work.

I will post more information soon. SOLIDARITY TO OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS AT SUTTONS

ps If you feel, you would like to become organised. Join Unite at unitetheunion.org and follow the link Join Unite

[albion]

I do genuinely try to be a decent employer and unlike Suttons, there’s only me and 25 staff to please, not a board and several hundred jobs.

Suppose my customer came along and said I’m not paying you £1.50 a mile, I’m paying you ;£1.30. Now I’m a stubborn old bat so I’d tell them our worth and if they didn’t like it, they can Foxtrot Oscar (I have said no on contractual terms before and been prepared to walk). And if the customer says no, then we all head off into the sunset. From the drivers perspective I’m not sure what that achieves…

Now Suttons have far more to lose and if they’ve been told to take it or leave it, they really can’t decide to give in, their only option is to cut costs. The council aren’t going to cut business rates, fuel suppliers will have the price down to the bone, truck sales and maintenance, maybe shave a few grand off that over 4-5 years. The only cost they can try to cut is wages.

There really isn’t much difference. Customer tells suttons they need to work for less. Drivers customer (Suttons) tells the drivers they need to work for less. Same principle, someone further up the chain hits you with a big stick.

[peterm]

Is this the same Suttons that’s been around for donkeys years ? What’s been said about giving away things that were hard won years ago is correct. We over here, have had all the same crap with younger workers being prepared to give away wages along with terms and conditions. I don’t pretend to know the answer to this, but wouldn’t it be nice if we could have back the old dream of workers sticking together. I know I can legitimately be accused of going on about this and I don’t want to make it into a political thread, but thanks to those on the surface of the pond, there are simply too many bloody people in the UK and this is what’s supplying the government and big business with the strength against the working people.

[merseycool]

albion:
I do genuinely try to be a decent employer and unlike Suttons, there’s only me and 25 staff to please, not a board and several hundred jobs.

Suppose my customer came along and said I’m not paying you £1.50 a mile, I’m paying you ;£1.30. Now I’m a stubborn old bat so I’d tell them our worth and if they didn’t like it, they can Foxtrot Oscar (I have said no on contractual terms before and been prepared to walk). And if the customer says no, then we all head off into the sunset. From the drivers perspective I’m not sure what that achieves…

Now Suttons have far more to lose and if they’ve been told to take it or leave it, they really can’t decide to give in, their only option is to cut costs. The council aren’t going to cut business rates, fuel suppliers will have the price down to the bone, truck sales and maintenance, maybe shave a few grand off that over 4-5 years. The only cost they can try to cut is wages.

There really isn’t much difference. Customer tells suttons they need to work for less. Drivers customer (Suttons) tells the drivers they need to work for less. Same principle, someone further up the chain hits you with a big stick.

The drive years ago was to compete on service & the quality of service that you could offer the customer. But these day’s companies simply want to enter the race to the bottom. I respect you position where you say you would tell them, to Foxtrot Oscar

[sweepster]

toonsy:

TiredAndEmotional:

toonsy:
I hope they win too.

But they won’t. The contract will just get taken off them and end up elsewhere - Stobarts or something just so nobody else can pick it up. Then they’ll be out of a job anyways unfortunately.

Yes but the current offer is sooooo good the men have backed a strike 100%! If it’s that bad and you lose it what’s the hardship?

Dunno. Depends on personal circumstances of each individual I guess - ie is less money (but still sone money) better than not having any income at all while a new job is sourced.

I went on strike with Royal Mail. Wish I never bothered. Lost a weeks wages and in the end people settled for the deal the were offered originally so no better off.

Fair play for making a stand but certainly these days I couldnt afford to full on strike with a mortgage/kids etc

Am I reading this right?
A Union lad/lady thinking the way you do?
The last strike that we went back no better off was way back in the late 80’s.
The negotiations are coming to a close and the wording of the agreement will be happening soon.
Come this April we will be on over £30,000 a year, for a 36 hour 15 mins week (meal relief not included)
Including o/t in duties most drivers are earning well above £40,000 a year.
If you can’t live off that, you are living well above your means.

[muckles]

albion:
I do genuinely try to be a decent employer and unlike Suttons, there’s only me and 25 staff to please, not a board and several hundred jobs.

Suppose my customer came along and said I’m not paying you £1.50 a mile, I’m paying you ;£1.30. Now I’m a stubborn old bat so I’d tell them our worth and if they didn’t like it, they can Foxtrot Oscar (I have said no on contractual terms before and been prepared to walk). And if the customer says no, then we all head off into the sunset. From the drivers perspective I’m not sure what that achieves…

Now Suttons have far more to lose and if they’ve been told to take it or leave it, they really can’t decide to give in, their only option is to cut costs. The council aren’t going to cut business rates, fuel suppliers will have the price down to the bone, truck sales and maintenance, maybe shave a few grand off that over 4-5 years. The only cost they can try to cut is wages.

There really isn’t much difference. Customer tells suttons they need to work for less. Drivers customer (Suttons) tells the drivers they need to work for less. Same principle, someone further up the chain hits you with a big stick.

But this is the problem companies know they can cut costs by reducing pay and conditions, so contracts are negotiated with that knowledge, (although I wonder if the Swedish based contractors of Nynas would find that so easy?)
This doesn’t help workers, it doesn’t help people like you who want to treat their staff properly, it doesn’t really help most small business as they now making the same or less percentage profit on a smaller turnover, but it does benefit the owners (shareholders) of large multi-national corporations who drive these deals.
So unless we can get to a point where companies know they can’t make saving purely on reducing pay and conditions, we will continue with a race to the bottom and an increasing gap between the wealthiest top few percent and the average person.

[rjan]

adam277:

Olog Hai:
What is even more bizarre is that one poster in this thread regards it as ‘reasonable’ behaviour on Suttons’ part.

Correct! but like I said I don’t know the full story only going by what is mentioned in this thread. If Nynas(think thats what they are called) have decided on paying lower rates then Sutton will be out of pocket due to reduced revenue.

If they decide on paying lower rates then they just get told that no wheels are going to turn. And then it’s up to Nynas to either put their rates up, or swallow the loss out their own pocket, or else have their entire operation cease indefinitely.

[rjan]

albion:
I do genuinely try to be a decent employer and unlike Suttons, there’s only me and 25 staff to please, not a board and several hundred jobs.

Suppose my customer came along and said I’m not paying you £1.50 a mile, I’m paying you ;£1.30. Now I’m a stubborn old bat so I’d tell them our worth and if they didn’t like it, they can Foxtrot Oscar (I have said no on contractual terms before and been prepared to walk). And if the customer says no, then we all head off into the sunset. From the drivers perspective I’m not sure what that achieves…

Now Suttons have far more to lose and if they’ve been told to take it or leave it, they really can’t decide to give in, their only option is to cut costs. The council aren’t going to cut business rates, fuel suppliers will have the price down to the bone, truck sales and maintenance, maybe shave a few grand off that over 4-5 years. The only cost they can try to cut is wages.

There really isn’t much difference. Customer tells suttons they need to work for less. Drivers customer (Suttons) tells the drivers they need to work for less. Same principle, someone further up the chain hits you with a big stick.

If you have a client that plays hardball like that with a contractor, then as workers you just keep forcing the contractors to fold in bankruptcy until the client is radioactive and has to hire direct labour, and then they pay what the union demands after all. Of course, that depends on workers being unified, because when they are, there’s only one price in town no matter where the client goes.

[rjan]

merseycool:
Can I first of all thank those of you that have posted positive comments of support to these workers, who are prepared to get off their knees and fight for what they believe is right and what the rest of drivers in this industry should be being paid.

I don’t want to go into too much detail at present as sensitive talks are still ongoing in order for the union to do it’s very best to avert this strike action.

Just to give an insight as to these proposals, The drivers are fighting to retain what their forefathers suffered the pain to achieve and the company are proposing to reduce their rates of pay by 32.9% Just one element in their terms and conditions that I will enlighten you all to at this time to give you a flavour of whats taking place. These workers currently have in their agreement, a death in service policy payable to their family if they die whilst in employment which is currently £100,000 the company are looking to ■■■■■ this to £10,000 The drivers pay into this scheme themselves and it is an insurance policy anyway so no saving for the company there.

Let us understand the strategy that these tuppence halfpenny hauliers adopt when bidding for these contracts. They bid at the lowest price in order to get the contract on the proviso that they will then attack the workers terms and conditions together with pay rates during the term of the contract.

Nynas is a Swedish owned company and operate the Refinery at Eastham in a joint partnership with the Oil giant Shell. These companies are raking in billions, make no mistake about that !

Suttons couldn’t even explain to the union reps what the savings were, that they were looking to make. On that basis, their agenda is clear, they simply want to attack these workers terms and conditions and join the race to the bottom.

One manager at the plant recently said to a driver, I come to work with a shirt & tie and you don’t deserve to paid more that me. That is their ideology !!!

These workers are united 100% The fight is on, United we stand, Divided we beg, these workers are no beggars. They had the balls to organise and are prepared to stand up to the bully boy bosses. Some on here working in this industry need to understand before criticising others that YOU are highly skilled workers, doing an extremely difficult job, for which you should be handsomely. But let’s get real, the boss isn’t coming to give you a pay rise anytime soon because he loves you. YOU have to organise and fight him for what is right, "A fair day’s pay, for a fairs day’s work.

I will post more information soon. SOLIDARITY TO OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS AT SUTTONS

ps If you feel, you would like to become organised. Join Unite at unitetheunion.org and follow the link Join Unite

Hear hear!

[carryfast]

merseycool:
SOLIDARITY TO OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS

To be fair where is the support within the TUC as a whole for road transport to be given a level playing field regarding fuel taxation as other transport modes like rail to at least give the employers some breathing space and remove that justifiable excuse.As it stands road fuel taxation is effectively a tax on the wages of road transport workers.

[andiehyde]

muckles:

toonsy:
these days I couldnt afford to full on strike with a mortgage/kids etc

Not your fault, it was all part of the plan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF8OvkIhZLg

This is bang on the money. The whole game is rigged.