Should we scrap the working time directive?

Zac_A:
While Conor’s advice might be sound, for me it smacks of I’m-all-right-Jack.
I don’t know a single person who has a that kind of stash of money as an emergency fund, certainly not me, a single dad with two kids.

If you are one of those who lives pay day to pay day and aren’t willing to give things up then you’ll continue to be skint and be like the 16 million people without even £100 to their name paying through the nose every time the slightest hiccup happens or you want something because you have to use other peoples money to pay for it and if you’re unlucky you’ll maybe eventually end up where I did, banking and losing everything. If you’re willing to make some sacrifices and to live within your means it’s perfectly feasible to do. I have that kind of stash money as an emergency fund despite having kids and earning less than many on here most of my working life due to ill health however I had to learn the hard way, ending up bankrupt just a few months before my 30th birthday before I did something about it. I wish websites like this had existed…monevator.com/the-really-obviou … ing-money/

It isn’t something that you achieve overnight but if you just make excuses as to why you can’t do it and never start you’ll never achieve it at all. I kick started it off by saving just £20 a week which today won’t even buy you two packs of cigs (if you smoke 20 a day that is almost £4000 a year you’re setting fire to). That increased a little to £100 a month and then because I wasn’t having to pay through the nose for everything so had more money spare that increased to £200 a month after a couple of years and four years later with favourable winds even with a few minor catastrophes you’ve got £10k. I then discovered stocks and shares ISAs (about 5 years late starting one but ah well) so put the money in there instead of the savings. Then once the current account had built up to a decent sum I picked a date in the month where all the bills had gone out, decided on a level to maintain the account at and chucked everything above that amount on that date into S&S ISA. Within a few years with the help of the returns on the investments that £10k is then £20k. And then it starts to make decent money all on it’s own without you doing a thing, over the last year it went up £5k - even with the 20% drop in March 2020 when the recession happened, although to be fair the last 18 months have been a bit of an anomoly and 8%-10% is more the norm. And now I chuck that money into my SIPP pension (about 20 years too late starting that but hey ho) where the government is nice enough to give me my income tax back on the money I put in out of my wages so for every £100 I put in they chuck in another £25.

And all of that was started by just putting away £20 a week. To quote one of the people I follow: “Building wealth and becoming financially successful has nothing to do with how much money you earn, who your parents are or what degree you have. It has everything to do with how you use your money.”

Sploom:
I bet hes someone who bought a house for e times salary as well,something younger people can only dream of

My lad who is a tramper and his girlfriend managed it three years ago, age 23, when they bought a 3 bed semi and they managed to save the deposit even though they were renting and had a child. He was actually one of the last amongst his friends to buy a house. He did it by putting £50 out of his wage packet every week into savings, his girlfriend did the same. He’s continued to do that putting that £50 away a week because he’d got used to living on what was left after putting it away so didn’t miss it.

For anyone interested in getting started…

Websites:
mrmoneymustache.com/ (American but sets out plenty of principles)
theescapeartist.me/about/
monevator.com/highlights/
reddit.com/r/UKPersonalFinance/
monevator.com/category/investin … investing/

Books:

Rich Dad, Poor Dad. (Kindle, Audible, Paperback) amazon.co.uk/Rich-Dad-Poor- … 07C7M8SX9/
Tim Hale Smarter Investing: amazon.co.uk/Smarter-Invest … 0273722077

Some wise words from Conor there, he obviously has a passion for this. The problem is that most people (myself included) are quite poor with finances right up to the moment where we either lose or face losing everything. The smart ones use that situation to reevaluate things and hopefully improve financially from then on.

I always overpaid my mortgage, and while it’s nice to shave 10/15 years off it it’s easy to lose sight of the fact that mortgage interest rates are relatively low so it’s actually better to overpay high interest things such as personal loans or especially credit cards.

My son in law is a financial nightmare; he’s locked into a mobile phone deal that costs him over £100 a month. I point out to him that my mobile deal is £40 a month for two phones and an I pad with unlimited everything. He’s now learning the hard way.

At the other end of the scale my best mate is in his forties and if he has a pound coin he’s not thinking of how to spend it, he’s thinking of how to turn it into two pounds! It’s an obsession with him, he literally never stops thinking about ways to make money, which is why he owns a couple of homes in the UK and a beautiful cliff top villa in Spain and drives top of the range motors.

Money doesn’t buy happiness, but it does buy a better class of misery! :wink:

the maoster:
Money doesn’t buy happiness, but it does buy a better class of misery

:grimacing: :grimacing:

i think its ridiculous we have to follow two sets of regulations when it comes to working times and breaks, especially made difficult when the tacho in the cab only keeps records of one of them.

I would scrap WTD, and scrap POA whilst I’m at it, never had a reason to use it as not deducted breaks.

I agree the 15 minute break every 6 hours is something that could and should be included in tacho regs

the maoster:
Money doesn’t buy happiness, but it does buy a better class of misery! :wink:

I’ll take a better class of misery every time.
Having been on my proverbial arse 4 times in my life I’ve dragged myself out of the hole and built up a tidy sum in the last couple of years. This has enabled me to be more financial confident, buy a new car, and other luxury items for cash and look at a more relaxed future where I can consider cutting back the number of shifts a week before I’m 60 and travel to my favourite places more often

What the youngsters of today have to understand is yes we bought our houses with a mortgage of 3 times our salaries but bloody hell did we struggle paying everything else off. We went without a lot of things and for the first 8 years of starting a family never once had a holiday even a break in the UK. We didnt get to go out much certainly never spent money in the boozer. However one thing we always did was had a strict savings regime. We always put money in a savings account no matter what we went without. Need a new coat…sew the hole up and it will do for another few months etc etc.
Our friends always took the micky out of us for not having a flash car or not joining them on holiday to Benidorm. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Our mortgage was paid up 4 years early whilst they had to remortgage for another 10 years. We now have 2 foreign holidays a year, in fact just last week I had a weeks cruise with P&O.

Save hard no matter what you go without. My middle son is saving for his first house and he also goes without yet he has over £45k in his savings account ready to lay down as a deposit.

Its all down to how you manage your money.

YES but replace it with 2021 up to date driver hours regs one set easy to understand…POA what a joke " there only for longer hours to be worked …the record book I was given was chucked in the wifes compost bin

Sploom:
I bet hes someone who bought a house for e times salary as well,something younger people can only dream of

manchestereveningnews.co.uk … r-21706868

Teenage trainee nurse on £12k a year manages to buy her first home

A teenager has purchased her first home whilst training to become a nurse – and working weekends in a takeaway.

Supersaver Isabella Hunter single-handedly bought her £107,000 two-bed semi-detached home just weeks after she turned 19.

The savvy youngster stepped onto the property ladder in April and unfazed by the renovation work needed, managing to do all the painting and decorating herself.

Sacrifices and “pays herself first” putting a set amount into a savings account every pay day before anything else is spent.

Mazzer2:
The OP voiced an opinion he didn’t ask for the holier than thou brigade to jump on him, do any of you know his personal circumstances? He could have had several things go wrong in a short space of time, repair to house or car, partner losing their job or partner leaving him and now having to fund two households, just because someone needs a quick injection of cash does not make them a finacial imbecile, better to get it through a bit of graft than borrowing it.

True. But also great for an outsider to look at your problem with a fresh perspective and get to the root of it. Rather than offer platitudes and a pat on the head. I’m not aware of any TN members having a say in abolishing WTD.

I’ll be honest…its the debt ridden drivers that are the bane of my life. I and others at my workplace are trying to keep our working hours to a respectable level. Every now and then a hard up driver joins us and instantly starts crying that he isnt able to bang 60 plus hours in, needs to work longer blah blah blah.
In the eyes of management they love these characters as they know they can squeeze their pips untill they bleed. The rest of us are just workshy lazy gits!!

Conor:

Sploom:
I want to work on Saturday,I need the money ,they need me,I cant work because Im up to my hours on the wtd.Its a pain in the ■■■■!.
What do you think?

I think you seriously need to get a grip of your finances if you’re struggling for money in any job you’re doing 60hrs a week, especially with the recent wage rises in lorry driving. The problem isn’t the working time directive, the problem is the hole you’ve dug for yourself. Part of the increased demand for more drivers is existing drivers using the recent wage rises to cut the number of hours they do, they’ve taken the opportunity to use the extra money to buy some of their life back. They can do that because they’ve not dug themselves a hole using a spade made from buying stuff they couldn’t afford with other peoples money, effectively borrowing from and shafting their future selves and the bill being due as yours now is.

If you’re having to put in 60+hrs a week to meet your expenses you’re seriously in debt crisis. Instead of going on forums and asking people if we should scrap the WTD to allow people to work even more insane hours perhaps your time would be better spent ringing Stepchange on 0800 138 1111 and sorting out the mess you’ve got yourself in. It’s only going to get worse if you do nothing.

The WTD exists to benefit you. It addresses one of the biggest failings of the drivers hours regs that you could do a 15hr shift with no break as long as you didn’t exceed 4.5hrs driving which is ridiculous. Nobody but nobody should be working more than 6hrs without a break and I know of no other job outside lorry driving where such a thing would be accepted, WTD or not. Same with the max 84hr week, only lorry drivers are stupid enough to think that’s something that’s acceptable. The vast majority of the population would balk at doing 48hrs, the WTD average, let alone the 55hr average working week we have in this job.

I can’t see any reference to 60 hrs in WTD only average of 48. Does 60 hrs come into it?

msgyorkie:

Estoic:
You must be kidding. They should reduce the working week to 40 hours with the option to work up to 60. Everything over 40 hours should be paid at time and a half, double time on Sundays. The 48 hour maximum should remain and the reference period should be a maximum of 17 weeks.

Stop working yourself to death and concentrate on getting better terms and conditions implemented, you may just live long enough to retire.

This ^^^^^^
Id like to see the WTD average kept at 48 but get rid of POA. 48 should mean 48.

Easy…don’t put it on POA.

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk

rearaxle:

msgyorkie:

Estoic:
You must be kidding. They should reduce the working week to 40 hours with the option to work up to 60. Everything over 40 hours should be paid at time and a half, double time on Sundays. The 48 hour maximum should remain and the reference period should be a maximum of 17 weeks.

Stop working yourself to death and concentrate on getting better terms and conditions implemented, you may just live long enough to retire.

This ^^^^^^
Id like to see the WTD average kept at 48 but get rid of POA. 48 should mean 48.

Easy…don’t put it on POA.

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk

I dont use POA but wouldnt it be better to just abolish it?

Long term, to encourage people into the logistics industry we need a better work/life balance, so if 4 on for off or at least 72 hours off a week could become normal it might go somewhere to fixing these driver supply issues. So people that have gotten themselves into debt by living outside their means asking for even more work are undermining the industry long term. Also as wages go up to 40-50k I’m sure more employers will switch to a salary rather than hourly wage, which will just be an agency thing.

Conor:

Zac_A:
While Conor’s advice might be sound, for me it smacks of I’m-all-right-Jack.
I don’t know a single person who has a that kind of stash of money as an emergency fund, certainly not me, a single dad with two kids.

If you are one of those who lives pay day to pay day and aren’t willing to give things up then you’ll continue to be skint and be like the 16 million people without even £100 to their name paying through the nose every time the slightest hiccup happens or you want something because you have to use other peoples money to pay for it and if you’re unlucky you’ll maybe eventually end up where I did, banking and losing everything. If you’re willing to make some sacrifices and to live within your means it’s perfectly feasible to do.

Do you actually try your hardest to be arrogant and offensive ? It certainly looks that way. People don’t come on TN for this, I certainly don’t need any “life lessons” from you, you don’t know my history anymore than you know anyone else’s history, so stop being so condescending.

msgyorkie:

rearaxle:

msgyorkie:

Estoic:
You must be kidding. They should reduce the working week to 40 hours with the option to work up to 60. Everything over 40 hours should be paid at time and a half, double time on Sundays. The 48 hour maximum should remain and the reference period should be a maximum of 17 weeks.

Stop working yourself to death and concentrate on getting better terms and conditions implemented, you may just live long enough to retire.

This ^^^^^^
Id like to see the WTD average kept at 48 but get rid of POA. 48 should mean 48.

Easy…don’t put it on POA.

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk

I dont use POA but wouldnt it be better to just abolish it?

It’s needed for drivers who have all recorded breaks deducted.

If that’s not you, like the majority, then just don’t use it

We’ve had drivers leave/hand their notice in,because they weren’t getting the hours in.
One bloke actually stormed into the office and demanded 60 hours and 2 nights out(per week)as he’d just bought a new car and caravan.