Self employed

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
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Zac_A:
The challenge for O licence holders in respect of drivers is twofold. Firstly, how can a licence holder claim that is has the supervision over, and direct and control of, its drivers if those drivers are described as self-employed? Secondly, any use of self-employed drivers who are not owner-drivers potentially opens up an argument that the O licence holder, by being in breach of the new guidance and facilitation a loss of revenue to HMRC, cannot be of ‘good repute’. Both of these issues could lead, ultimately, to the loss of an O licence.[/i]

The O Licence holder will have the same control over drivers whether they use their own truck or the client’s truck. This seems a nonsense to try and make a distinction by saying the driver who doesn’t use his own truck is more closely controlled than the driver who does use his own truck.

However, there’s more to an employment contract than control…MOO

Mutuality of obligation. If the driver can’t sue the end client for not giving them any more work, which happens a lot, then where’s the contract of employment?

If the driver is genuinely self-employed, the O licence holder isn’t facilitating a loss of revenue to HMRC. A bit like if the O licence called in a self-employed gardener to mow the grass, rather than put the gardener on their payroll before he mowed the grass. If a driver is meeting their IR35 obligations, then suggesting an O licence holder is facilitating a loss of revenue to HMRC is nonsense, because the driver is then entitled to be the director of his own limited company.

Maybe HMRC should be telling end clients to give all their drivers employment contracts. The end client doesn’t have to offer any shifts, and the driver doesn’t have to accept any shifts. I don’t think that’s an employment contact, as there is no “mutuality of obligation” for either party to do anything. Just like it currently is for many agency drivers.

So often in various court cases, HMRC have been shown to have misinterpreted the law to maximise their revenue. Just look at their CEST tool. A judge condemned it, by saying that this complex area of law can’t be reduced to a few simple questions with yes/no answers.

The reason this IR35 nonsense has been going on for over 20 years, is because HMRC prefers the current FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt). If there were court cases that clarified all the details, everyone would know how to avoid IR35…so the current uncertain situation continues.

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And just to clarify Zac_A, the check employment status tool, (cest) designed and promoted by HMRC to yes you guessed it, to check one’s employment status has been absolutely slated by industry for being not fit for purpose.

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Welcome to the murky grey world of HMRC, the most bent organisation going.

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Like I said, I’m not particularly invested in the debate, I’ve no axe to grind with people who don’t see a problem with it, “horses for courses”.

Speaking purely for myself, if OTC put a specific issue into the Statutory Documents, I am going to take those documents as my guide. And like a few other ETMs I’m familiar with, I would give a wide berth to those operators who employ LTD drivers: If other ETMs are happy to work with these operators, that’s fine with me.

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Zac_A:
Like I said, I’m not particularly invested in the debate, I’ve no axe to grind with people who don’t see a problem with it, “horses for courses”.

Speaking purely for myself, if OTC put a specific issue into the Statutory Documents, I am going to take those documents as my guide. And like a few other ETMs I’m familiar with, I would give a wide berth to those operators who employ LTD drivers: If other ETMs are happy to work with these operators, that’s fine with me.

HMRC = the problem.

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robbo99.:

Zac_A:
Like I said, I’m not particularly invested in the debate, I’ve no axe to grind with people who don’t see a problem with it, “horses for courses”.

Speaking purely for myself, if OTC put a specific issue into the Statutory Documents, I am going to take those documents as my guide. And like a few other ETMs I’m familiar with, I would give a wide berth to those operators who employ LTD drivers: If other ETMs are happy to work with these operators, that’s fine with me.

HMRC = the problem.

In part it’s the HMRC, but the OTC view is the lack of control a Tm can have over them, and it’s done to avoid paying the real costs of an employee which is unfair to those being legit.
The odd day hee and there is one thing, but any longer and it’s going to invite investigations by bot HMRC and OTC

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Acorn:

robbo99.:

Zac_A:
Like I said, I’m not particularly invested in the debate, I’ve no axe to grind with people who don’t see a problem with it, “horses for courses”.

Speaking purely for myself, if OTC put a specific issue into the Statutory Documents, I am going to take those documents as my guide. And like a few other ETMs I’m familiar with, I would give a wide berth to those operators who employ LTD drivers: If other ETMs are happy to work with these operators, that’s fine with me.

HMRC = the problem.

In part it’s the HMRC, but the OTC view is the lack of control a Tm can have over them, and it’s done to avoid paying the real costs of an employee which is unfair to those being legit.
The odd day hee and there is one thing, but any longer and it’s going to invite investigations by bot HMRC and OTC

I’d love to see examples of an operator being hauled infront of the TC for using Ltd Co drivers or indeed a Transport Manager losing his or her good repute over this

This is very much HMRC at work, bully boy tactics. For over 20 plus years IR35 was put in place by government to supposedly regulate this kind of working practice and probably for political reasons HMRC did nothing in the private sector until very recently, quite frankly it stinks.

Someone working for a PSC, (personal service company), employed by the PSC as a director and then offering their
personal services via an agency to an end client is an employee of the PSC and is therefore not self employed. A Ltd Co is a separate legal entity to any individual. A sole trader or owner driver is self employed.

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robbo99.:
I’d love to see examples of an operator being hauled infront of the TC for using Ltd Co drivers or indeed a Transport Manager losing his or her good repute over this

This is very much HMRC at work, bully boy tactics. For over 20 plus years IR35 was put in place by government to supposedly regulate this kind of working practice and probably for political reasons HMRC did nothing in the private sector until very recently, quite frankly it stinks.

Someone working for a PSC, (personal service company), employed by the PSC as a director and then offering their
personal services via an agency to an end client is an employee of the PSC and is therefore not self employed. A Ltd Co is a separate legal entity to any individual. A sole trader or owner driver is self employed.

An owner driver isn’t an employee when they work for someone else - they’d need their own O licence.
Have a flick though a few public enquiry outcomes and As&Ds to see it’s not uncommon for operator to get their employee contracts, paye etc in place as part of their undertakings.

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Acorn:

robbo99.:
I’d love to see examples of an operator being hauled infront of the TC for using Ltd Co drivers or indeed a Transport Manager losing his or her good repute over this

This is very much HMRC at work, bully boy tactics. For over 20 plus years IR35 was put in place by government to supposedly regulate this kind of working practice and probably for political reasons HMRC did nothing in the private sector until very recently, quite frankly it stinks.

Someone working for a PSC, (personal service company), employed by the PSC as a director and then offering their
personal services via an agency to an end client is an employee of the PSC and is therefore not self employed. A Ltd Co is a separate legal entity to any individual. A sole trader or owner driver is self employed.

An owner driver isn’t an employee when they work for someone else - they’d need their own O licence.
Have a flick though a few public enquiry outcomes and As&Ds to see it’s not uncommon for operator to get their employee contracts, paye etc in place as part of their undertakings.

Think there are crossed wires here, I’m referring to Ltd co drivers employment status, I guess you are talking about self employed owner drivers? I have always struggled to understand how someone who wholly works for one operator, sometimes their vehicle liveried in the operators colours, takes full instructions from the operator is self employed, but there you go there’s a debate for another day.