Teilhol built this body on a 6x2 Bernard.
Fergie47:
pete smith:
Morning Fergie,
Hope you are keeping well and out of trouble with Mrs Fergie?
Had an influx of them Fergies round here in the last couple of weeks, lad who does some repairs for me has bought a TVO for his lad to restore and one of my drivers has bought one as well! I’ve come to the conclusion they cannot afford to go upmarket and buy a Cropmaster!
Here is a picture of Len Cranes (R.I.P) F10 and his Fowler engine that worked in John Thompsons boiler makers in Wolverhampton, Cheer’s PeteSmithy…yep, keeping well thanks, and trust you and Mrs Smithy also ?.. and I’m avoiding Mrs Fergies wrath by doing as I’m told, her archery has improved which is worring as I can’t run, duck, and, dive as quick as I use to, and those arrows are sharp !!!..
Two more old Fergies being saved, that’s good, cheap and plentiful spares, and recognised every where, unlike those Cropduster thingys with big seats for big buggers, admittedly, they do have scrap value I suppose…
Nice pic, that F10 looks stunning, and it’s load must be worth a few shillings…
Gotta go, busy day ahead, going sailing with posh pals, this retirement gets so boring sometimes…
Hi Dave,
I’ve sent you a bottle of this to help avoid the wrath of the lovely Liz, hopefully “It does what it says on the bottle” 
Regards
Richard
MaggieD:
Fergie47:
pete smith:
Morning Fergie,
Hope you are keeping well and out of trouble with Mrs Fergie?
Had an influx of them Fergies round here in the last couple of weeks, lad who does some repairs for me has bought a TVO for his lad to restore and one of my drivers has bought one as well! I’ve come to the conclusion they cannot afford to go upmarket and buy a Cropmaster!
Here is a picture of Len Cranes (R.I.P) F10 and his Fowler engine that worked in John Thompsons boiler makers in Wolverhampton, Cheer’s PeteSmithy…yep, keeping well thanks, and trust you and Mrs Smithy also ?.. and I’m avoiding Mrs Fergies wrath by doing as I’m told, her archery has improved which is worring as I can’t run, duck, and, dive as quick as I use to, and those arrows are sharp !!!..
Two more old Fergies being saved, that’s good, cheap and plentiful spares, and recognised every where, unlike those Cropduster thingys with big seats for big buggers, admittedly, they do have scrap value I suppose…
Nice pic, that F10 looks stunning, and it’s load must be worth a few shillings…
Gotta go, busy day ahead, going sailing with posh pals, this retirement gets so boring sometimes…
Hi Dave,
I’ve sent you a bottle of this to help avoid the wrath of the lovely Liz, hopefully “It does what it says on the bottle”
Regards
Richard
Very good, and oh so subtle Richard, thats why you’re a QC, …me, I spend my time dodging Mrs F’s tantrums and arrows …however, when you come over either wear an arrow proof vest, or stay in doors… 
Had little folding neck Transquip like that many years ago one of the first they made 20/21ft well with
Ruggerini diesel powerpack fitted at the back
all caught within half hour.
Fergie47:
MaggieD:
Fergie47:
pete smith:
Morning Fergie,
Hope you are keeping well and out of trouble with Mrs Fergie?
Had an influx of them Fergies round here in the last couple of weeks, lad who does some repairs for me has bought a TVO for his lad to restore and one of my drivers has bought one as well! I’ve come to the conclusion they cannot afford to go upmarket and buy a Cropmaster!
Here is a picture of Len Cranes (R.I.P) F10 and his Fowler engine that worked in John Thompsons boiler makers in Wolverhampton, Cheer’s PeteSmithy…yep, keeping well thanks, and trust you and Mrs Smithy also ?.. and I’m avoiding Mrs Fergies wrath by doing as I’m told, her archery has improved which is worring as I can’t run, duck, and, dive as quick as I use to, and those arrows are sharp !!!..
Two more old Fergies being saved, that’s good, cheap and plentiful spares, and recognised every where, unlike those Cropduster thingys with big seats for big buggers, admittedly, they do have scrap value I suppose…
Nice pic, that F10 looks stunning, and it’s load must be worth a few shillings…
Gotta go, busy day ahead, going sailing with posh pals, this retirement gets so boring sometimes…
Hi Dave,
I’ve sent you a bottle of this to help avoid the wrath of the lovely Liz, hopefully “It does what it says on the bottle”
Regards
Richard
Very good, and oh so subtle Richard, thats why you’re a QC, …me, I spend my time dodging Mrs F’s tantrums and arrows …however, when you come over either wear an arrow proof vest, or stay in doors…
Sounds like you should opt for the outdoor possibility and spend some time with that dog in the yard, less harmless it seems…
Nice F10 indeed, real stunner. What make is the low loader? King, Tasker?
Cheers, Patrick
Saw this today at the docks, it’s probably going to be shipped to Africa to continue a fifth life or so…
Evening all,
Oilly, shows how the seasons vary through the country when you look at those Scottish lads still turning Hay, and we are re seeding much of the land after harvest. Tidy kit, (but the Deere is obviously the best one to have…even if it needs new front tyres)!
Fergie, despite Maggie Ds kind gift, I think that I had better send you one of my late Mother in Laws knitted bobble caps that she used to do for me…very heavy duty, guaranteed to protect the wearers head from almost any weapon known to man , (or woman)…rain proof, cold proof, knock resistant, (so thick that ones head simply bounces off any obstacle in the wearers way)…the only down side…she only had one pattern…for a Tea Cosy…but for the hat simply closed up the holes for the spout and handle…but my goodness they do wear well…even if people do stare a little!
Michel that is a handsome vehicle, one can hardly believe that it came from the same works as the Rodeo, and those strange electric delivery vehicles. Fascinating company Teilhol, with many ventures, and one of the first with Sheet Moulding Compound, (SMC), panels.
Patrick that looks a well worn ex military Berliet, but the cab looks sound, and the body probably comes from something else. Is that at Sete, or Marseille?
Well today I was ordered to do no farming…so chose to collect a bathroom suite from a plumbers merchant in Fallings Park, former home to both Guy Motors, and Meadows Diesel Engines…a complete depression inducing journey…what was is gone…and what has replaced it…bears little evidence of the vibrancy that once was there.
So it set my old grey cells in motion, and perhaps I may bore you with a few anecdotal bits and bobs about these two once so powerful operations now patently forgotten by the town that they once helped to sustain.
Wolverhampton in the late 19th and early 20th century was arguably the motor vehicle manufacturing capital of Great Britain. In 1906, Sydney Guy left Coventry`s Humber to join Wolverhampton based Sunbeam as their service Manager, by 1909 at the age of 24 he was Works Manager. Restless and with ambition he set up Guy Motors in 1914 with the support of Alfred Owen, owner of the growing Rubery Owen Group , a relationship that was to endure right up until the demise of Guy at the personal hand of Michael Edwards in 1982.
Across in the Black Country, Henry Meadows had worked for Tipton based Harper-Bean, producer of both cars and lorries, before moving to Wolverhampton based Clyno Motor Cars. Frustrated at the lack of quality of bought in components he resolved that he could do better. In 1919, at the Little Swan Inn in Wolverhampton`s Horsley Fields he met with potential backers, and Henry Meadows Engineering was formed. Company secretary was another midland based engineer, Sidney Ellard, and production was started on a 14 acre site right behind Guy Motors at Fallings Park.
Initial production was confined to gearboxes for other Midland Manufacturers, by 1920 Meadows were producing a 3 speed transmission for Vulcan who were 75% owned by Harper - Bean. John Dorman, of the Stafford based engineers joined the Board in 1920 tasked with the design, tooling and production of car and lorry engines. 1922 Meadows exhibited at the Olympia show a 1200cc 4 cylinder engine, quickly followed by a 6 cylinder version. Sales were made to Lea Francis, Guy, Lagonda, Invicta, Vulcan and Harper-Bean.
Sydney Guy was determined to produce a motor car of high quality, and engineering excellence. He designed and produced arguably the very first British designed and manufactured V8 engine, which was fitted into his Guy V8 motor car, along with automatic chassis lubrication, and four wheel braking. One of these he presented to his friend and business associate Henry Meadows in 1923. Henry was still using this vehicle up to his death in 1937. Guy acquired from the Lisle family the Wolverhampton car and lorry manufacturer Star Motor company, and its South African operation.
The 1920s economic depression was the end of luxury car demand, and Guy suffered considerably financial loss. Meadows were diversifying its product range into stationary power packs, generators, water pumps, and a whole range of gearboxes. Guy were a major client, just next door. Henry Meadows junior was involved in a range of water born speed record attempts. This entailed much work with Hythe based The British Power Boat Company, leading to an invitation for its Principal Hubert Scott-Paine to join the Board in 1931 to create a Marine division.
The clouds of conflict were overhead, and a notable guest at Henry Meadows substantial Crowther Road residence being TE Lawrence, (of Arabia), liasing for the Government on the specification of the new twin engine Air Sea Rescue launches. During his stay he was often loaned Meadows Guy V8 car, of which he was much impressed with its power and smoothness. When Henry Meadows died in 1937 it was reported that the road to St Bartholemew`s Church was lined three deep with mourning employees.
What is irrefutable is that both Henry Meadows and Sydney Guy were caring employers, both concerns having formal grievance procedures, and “Works Councils”, a very unusual feature for the 1920s and 1930s.
I gather that the Meadows engined Guy’s were not a great success so why was that ? Cheers Dennis.
continued, (pressed the wrong button)…1938 and as Britain prepared for the inevitable Guy and Meadows were in full production, and Meadows expanded into a further 10 acres fronting the Cannock to Wolverhampton Road to extend their 16000 sq ft Art Deco works, which was producing the ELA engine fitted into Guy`s “Ant” and the 12 cylinder horizontaly opposed 300hp DAV tank engine
Post WW2, by the late 40s Meadows works was rated as the most advanced vehicle engine works in Great Britain. Guy were taking quantities of the compact 8 litre 6HDC to fit into its Victory bus chassis, as well as the 130x130 6DC.630 130 hp engine for the Guy Goliath range along with its 5 speed gearbox.
Following the 1954 Commercial Motor show, German manufacturer Carl F W Borgward claimed via its subsidiary Tempo the World wide use of the name Goliath…Guy in a parlous financial state, (mainly due to mismanagement of its South African subsidiary), could not fight, so renamed the range Invincible, (a name first used back in 1929 on its drop frame psv chassis).
This Meadows and Gardner powered range, with its Willenhall Motor Radiator steel cab was in effect a pure AEC design. AEC and Guy having a very close working relationship, after all AECs works manager, John Bowler having previously held the same position with Guy! This range gave Guy a well engineered quality product with low manufacturing cost, a real, (and needed), profit earner.
Meadows, since 1952 owned by ABOE, (Associated British Oil Engines),whose Brush locomotive designs Meadows were building in conjunction with Ware based Wickham and Sons, had developed their rail diesel engines, and diesel railcar expertise. The latter adopted by British Rail for its new 1957 range of Railcars, and the former with great export success, the Belgian Congo rail system becoming Meadows powered.
Automotive diesels were being fitted by Scammell, Rowe, Guy, Dodge, ERF, Fowler, Mineappolis-Moline, Australias Chamberlain, and in 1963 Indias Bombay based Premier Auto`s signed a licence that ensured all Indian assembled Dodge vehicles would be fitted with Meadows 4 cylinder DC330 engines. In Britain, Lotus fitted Meadows gearboxes to its Elite! And of course Meadows themselves were producing that little “Frisky” car, whose fibreglass body owed much to the expertise of next door neighbour Guy Motors, who were also producing bespoke fibreglass swimming pool liners as well as buses and lorries.
1960s Governmenta policy dictated that new automotive manufacturing facilities must be created in areas of high unemployment, irrespective of the length of the supply chain. A directly opposite strategy was employed by Jaguar`s William Lyons. He was establishing a diverse manufacturing group with short supply chain distance. June 1960 he had acquired Daimler from the BSA Group for a bargain £3.4 million. Daimler were riding high in the psv world, but Lyons saw a gap in the lorry market and recruited from Dodge Cliff Elliott, to create the new Daimler lorry…
But Guy had finally bent under financial pressure and gone into receivership…but ever with an eye to a bargain William Lyons bought Guy for a bargain £800,000…and Cliff Elliott found himself creating the team that would produce the new Big Jaguar lorry…the Guy Big J.
Within Lyons Group sat Coventry based Coventry Climax, and Lyons became aware that American engine producer ■■■■■■■ was looking to licence manufacture of its state of the art V series engines. Krupp held the German licence, and in France Berliet were heavily involved in negotiating the licence to power its proposed heavy version of the air suspended Stradair middle weight range.
Henry Meadows, backing onto Lyons owned Guy, with modern assembly facilities was an obvious choice for a production unit to deliver the proposed power unit for the Big J range. 1964 Henry Meadows was acquired along with its 1200 strong work force by Lyons British Motor Holdings. I will not go down the well trodden path of listing the flaws in the design of the Vim and Vale range, or of high revolution small capacity V engines of the 60s, a path many trod to their cost…but there is one question of political intrigue…from the remaining evidence it would appear that ■■■■■■■ suddenly walked away from Meadows, (despite the clearance and preparation of an assembly hall), following a meeting with representatives of HM Government…and their investment went elsewhere in the UK…were they incentified to set up wholly owned plant? A very interesting question, but one to which there seems little written record!
I will not dwell on the sad decline…1966 Sir William Lyons approaching retirement saw the future safety of his group with a larger concern, and to that end in 1966 a merger with the British Motor Corporation was announced…1967 the new group was becoming financially unstable due to the major drain on resource from the Austin/Morris operation. Tony Benn,( with great aplomb), announced that talks, sponsored by HMGovernment, were to take place with Leyland. Duly, in 1968 the merger took place, creating the World`s 5th largest motor manufacturing group.
Rationalisation was inevitable, 1969 Henry Meadows was closed with the loss of 1200 jobs…Wolverhampton Labour MP Renee Short emplored Barbara Castle to step in, the plea fel on deaf ears…
Guy despite a total lack of investment lasted until 1982, building not only the ubiquitous Big J, but the Leyland Marathon, and Landtrain as well. When Michael Edwards personally closed the operation Guy had an 18 month forward order book, and along with Solihull based Land Rover was the only profitable company within the Leyland Grouping!
Perhaps the low wage bill made it a low cost closure, or simply the unmodernised works would cost too much to develop, we will never know…again there seems to be many missing documents to peruse!
The remaining Guy Big Js went to Roy and Don Richardson…who also became owners of th wonderful Art Deco Henry Meadows works!
Guy and Meadows close collaborators for 49 years, and today there is little to mark their passing…just so sad!
Cheerio for now.
Brilliant, John, so concisely written with a wealth of factual information. What can you tell us about Moss gearboxes and axles. I know they were fitted by Guy and also the Seddons we had used Moss back axles.
Evening all,
Graham, thank you for your kind comments.
Dennis, you are quite right regarding Gardner/Meadows, the Patricroft product wins everytime. I understand that one of the major weaknesses in Meadows larger engines was the rear mounted fibre timing belts reliability! There were three 6 cylinder engines from the 50s,
6DC.630 giving 127hp@1800rpm
6HDC500 8 litres giving 161hp@2500rpm
6DC.630Turbocharged giving 200hp@2500rpm
Big power and fairly high revs. Reputed to be a free revving engine, but heavier on fuel than the Gardner, and slghtly heavier installed weight. For the Guy invincible the engine was supplied complete with a Meadows 5 speed gearbox. All were direct injection, with CAV equipment.
Regarding the 4cylinder units, very strong, but not smooth running, and lost out to the 4 cylinder Gardner on all counts, fuel consumption, and mileage between overhauls.
Couple of bits that may be of interest, and that for brevity I did not include last night…
In 1961 Jaguar, (William Lyons), purchased the assets of Guy Motors (Europe) ltd…but where had this company originated?
Guy Motors (Europe) ltd never traded, yet had been registered to centralise Guy Motors European operation…Did they have one…well…yes, and no! Guy buses as well as lorries had been sold into Europe from the 1920s, and were received well in the Benelux, and also in France. I remember visiting a Belgian Tanker operator with Saviems Distributor to try to sell him some SM280 Turbo tractors, yet when I remarked on the photograph on his office wall of a bonnetted Invincible tractor unit…that was it…he loved the lorry, and regretted that modern, (1975)! lorries were not as good! Then of course Calberson, the major French parcels carrier had run a fleet of Vixen and Otter vans for quite a long time.
But Guy Motors (Europe) ltd was to have been established in Luxemburg, and co-ordinated European sales, (to compensate for the losses in South Africa, incurred by local laws burdening the selling company with the financial liability should an operator default on his credit agreement).
Guy had cash reserves from good trading in the preceding years, but the early 60s were dire. Their Bankers Lloyds appointed receivers, who neatly moved Guy Motors assets into the dormant Guy Motors (Europe) ltd company…then offered that business liability and debt free to the market. That such a low bid as Lyons £800000 was accepted, in hindsight seems remarkable…the asset base, factory, tooling, components, built stock, forward orders, would appear to comfortably exceed £1.5 million…a bargain indeed…wonder who were Daimler/Jaguars Bankers?..So often when one looks back at the macinations within Industry, (and certainly not confined to our dear UK), there would appear to be dirty deeds afoot!
Now Graham asks about the Moss Gear Company, acarown Works Tyburn, Birmingham, but originally Thomas Street, Aston, Birmingham. Created by the Duckett family, originating from Moss Side Yorkshire, hence the name picked for their business.
Founded 1910, manufacturing spiral beval gears for the motorcycle and car manufacturers of the midlands. By the 1920s complete gearboxes were being manufactured, and fitted to a large number of motorcycles including the rare Warrior 250 of 1923, produced in Newport Pagnell.
By the mid 1930s Moss had become a public company, and in 1938 relocated from Aston to Tyburn, where the Crown works was built with over 2000 staff on site. Products included gearboxes, steering boxes, axles for road and agricultural vehicles, prop shafts and engineered couplings.
1940 the Ministry of Supply took control of this major defence equipment producer, (and would remain in production up untill 1949). The works were the major producer of transmission components for armoured and soft skin vehicles." Shadow Factories", were established in Accrington, and Merthyr Tydfil to maintain production in the light of the horrendous bombing received by Birmingham…The details of these raids, and the horrific consequences were supressed for many years, “for reasons of national security”…even today one has to seek out the details, and they make the raids endured by Coventry and London pale in their light!..Somber, but important reading.
Early 50s and transmission components were being made for motor cars, including Morgan, Jaguar, (who assembled Moss Gearboxes themselves…but a genuine Moss produced gearbox in a Jaguar, has a letter S stamped on its oil filler), as well as axles for Proctor, as well as Guy, and former Reo Distributor Seddon Motors, who took Moss`s Hypoid rear axles.
By the 60s Moss were producing aircraft components for the Coventry aircraft works, as well as front and rear axles, and transmissions with a workforce now reduced to around 1000. 1966 saw Tyburn Crown works closed, and the company activity split to the two other sites, Merthyr Tydfil and Accrington, where HGV axle and gearbox production was centred, and whose axles were fitted to that most elegant of all Seddon lorries the Pennine cabbed Mk 2…(shame about the half shafts reliability)!
Early 80s the Merthyr operation suffered severe financial problems and went into receivership, but Accrington bought the light axle operation from Leyland, under its new title FPW Axles, (Fone, Pickles, Wilson), following a management buy out by the three individuals.
Apologies its not comprehensive, but its the best my little grey cells can do after a full day back farming…(yipeeeeee)…Im away for my tea, and a small Bollinger
Cheerio for now.
A well-deserved Bollinger, I’d say! Another most informative post. Thank you John! Robert
This thread just keeps getting better, more wonderful insight into the world of lorries. John I learn something new every time you post. Thank you.
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Thank you John for the information about Moss Gears. I concur about the half shaft problems in the rear axles. I remember one snapping in an AEC AV690 powered Seddon 30/4/690 on Hucks Brow climbing Shap with 22 tons of tinplate destined for Metal Box Carlisle. The driver thought he had done a quick gear change down the box, but it wasn’t as smart as he thought. That also had the Pennine Mk.2 cab, my favourite Seddon cab and an excellent lorry in all respects, apart from the half shafts.
I concur with the other lads, most informative post Sir. And honestly, I always reckoned Wolverhampton was just famous for being home to Noddy Holder & co
Spotted these two old “fellows” at the docks today, same place as the other worn out ex-army Renault.
And it was a bit closer to home Saviem, this being the Antwerp docks
Cheers, Patrick
pv83:
I concur with the other lads, most informative post Sir. And honestly, I always reckoned Wolverhampton was just famous for being home to Noddy Holder & coSpotted these two old “fellows” at the docks today, same place as the other worn out ex-army Renault.
And it was a bit closer to home Saviem, this being the Antwerp docksCheers, Patrick
Morning Patrick,
I’m sure it is a King lowloader behind Len’s F10 and its got a Lister donkey engine to power the hydraulics, before the F10 Len had a F88, Cheer’s Pete
This pic intrigues me, the trailers are looking well used and are confusing me, the horses head points at the contents, but there’s no apparent refrigeration unit and it doesn’t look like any live animal transporter I’ve ever seen, so what is going on?
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newmercman:
This pic intrigues me, the trailers are looking well used and are confusing me, the horses head points at the contents, but there’s no apparent refrigeration unit and it doesn’t look like any live animal transporter I’ve ever seen, so what is going on?
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Looks like the fridge motors have been taken off, Knacker man motors Mark?
Yeah could be Pete, maybe bones to the glue factory, they’re Chereau trailers by the look of it, maybe used on fish when they were on front line duty, I base that on the side door which to the best of my knowledge was mainly specced by the fish haulier.
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