Saviem's fan club (Part 1)

[pv83]

Saviem:

pv83:

David Miller:
Patrick,
They may well have sold them in Russia too but those ones are from Bulgaria where the State transport ran Berliet for many years.

David

Oh aye? Wasn’t that a bit odd then back in the day? Bulgaria still under a communist government, was there some sort of treatie with France?

Cheers though to shed a light on thing’s David

Evening all, pv, David is right, they are Texim, the Bulgarian state transport operations lorrys. The order was for 550, of the TR250, 12 litre, 250 hp @ 2200 rpm, the Berliet M635 engine, 135 x 140mm, improved cooling over the original TR12 12 litre. 3.8 m wheelbase, fitted with either the FPGR double reduction axle, or for 150 units the heavy duty FPGR 2 R triple reduction unit. Running on either Michelin F20s, or when Clermont Ferrand were on strike either Dunlop, or Kleber 1200x20s. Road speed was a modest 95kph, but up and down hills they took some beating.

The cab was the single sleeper Relax non tilting steel structure, but 350 plus were fitted with the raised pavilion over the sleeper, which gave a roomy double sleeper. Personal experience, was when I did a “favour” Saturday morning job for my friends at Robert Leyx, (later SCALEX, then today, SCALES), from Gennervilliers, in their swb 6x4 TR250…beautiful thing to drive…and ny bosses could not understand how, “a foreigner” could get their business!..ironic…if they knew what I did, I would probably be dismissed…managers do not drive lorries!

The Eastern Bloc deals were purely down to Paul Berliet…they were in the main “commodity swop deals”…commodities such as grain, swopped for manufactured assets like lorries. Little cash changed hands…but the deals were profitable, some greatly so!

When the parc at Venissieux was full of unsold lorries…the International team got busy…

Hungarocamion…Pekaes…super people…they needed the assets…we had them…so what is the deal?

Mooching around Hungarocamions Garage in Budapest I found a virtually unused V10 Steyr tractor…a commodity swop that had gone wrong with Austria! Lovely people those Hungarians…and what a company…and I was quite “smitten” with their RABA lorries…

But pv back in 1969 when that deal was done with Texim for those TR250s, I was only just adapting to coming off the road as a driver, and becoming a lorry salesman for an Atkinson Dealer…but I was there in 1981 when Bulgaria took their 10000 th “Renault” lorry, (a TR305)…

So those TR250s were not too bad at all…

Cheerio for now.

Cheers Saviem for the (once again ) informative post, always a pleasure to read!

[pv83]

Great pic’s Patrick…thanks for posting…I do have some more pics of old heavies, just need sorting and time to post…be patient …

You’re right about the heavy haulage fraternity being innovative, plenty of lateral thinking to accommodate unusual and heavy loads…as an apprentice I use to be fascinated with the modifications made to trailers, and sometimes lorries, to adapt them to suit a specific load requirement, and if a trailer couldn’t be modified, then they use to make a bespoke one to fit…

They, along with the circus guys, were the absolute masters of adaption, and we are seeing a lot of their efforts via photos on this thread…like those 4 driven dolly’s you’ve posted… innovation at its best…

I didn’t do a huge amount of low loader / convoy exceptional work, I wish I’d have done more, but did enjoy what I did do…to get a large high and wide machine or boat from the UK to europe without a scratch gave a little more satisfaction that taking a tilt or reffer …as you well know

Where are you going this week, and with what.?.. photo’s please…
[/quote]
Yes, that was and still is the main reason for me doing heavy haulage, you always have to find out a new way of loading things, or modify the trailer to load something properly.
And getting safely to the end destination without a scratch.
Tilt or reefer work wasn’t my game, but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect those lads, on many occasion I’ve had supper with those lads in a Les Routiers and the things they told me then, about where they had to tip or load, well, it almost seems then that I’ve got the easiest job of them all…
About those lads in the workshop, they’re the ones doing the hard work to make it easier for us, I just come up with an idea and they set about with the welder and stuff
And I can assure you, sometimes the solutions we come up with isn’t necessarily “embraced” by the trailer manufacturer (Nooteboom)…
I’m on me way to Switzerland this week with yet another stone crusher, will post some pic’s later on mate.

Just take your time to get things sorted, I’m a patient man, and the “reward” is always much more satisfying when you post some of those heavies

Cheers, Patrick

[pv83]

EDTRUCK:
Good morning PV83,

The pic of the “Mack F900” is on the FLIKR account of Donald De Kloet - on his page he also has a picture of a similar (or the same) Mack as a ballast tractor in the colours of ISTRANS.

Do any of our European colleagues know anything about these Macks - firstly are the genuine Macks from either Allentown or Paris CKD kits or have they been created by one of many specialist companies (Nicolas Tractomas/Willeme etc) to meet an operator’s particular requirements? Whatever happened to them?

Separately take a look at the full pics from Donald- there are a plethora of unusual and rare trucks on it!!

Ed

Will most certainly have a look Ed, cheers for the info mate.

[zb_anorak]

Saviem:
…Mooching around Hungarocamions Garage in Budapest I found a virtually unused V10 Steyr tractor…a commodity swop that had gone wrong with Austria! …

Cheerio for now.

Were these military tractors, or was that V10 available to “ordinary” customers? I remember reading about a 350 bhp (DIN, SAE? I dunno) V8 under the wedge-shaped cab, but not a ten.

PS I have a sense of deja-vu, that we have discussed this very subject before. It’s still easier to find things in one’s own head, than use the search facility on here, though!

[pv83]

This is what’s on the menu for now Fergie

Cheers, Patrick

[fergie47]

pv83:
This is what’s on the menu for now Fergie

Cheers, Patrick

Nice one Patrick,…every week I post a an old nostalgic pic, how about you post up where you’re going and what you’re hauling, for a modern take on the heavies… pretty sure we’d all appreciate that…I know a lot of the younger lads, and those that never came across to Europe like the old wagons and stories that go with, so us oldie retards can enjoy a few modern pics…what do you recon ?

[pv83]

Fergie47:

pv83:
This is what’s on the menu for now Fergie

Cheers, Patrick

Nice one Patrick,…every week I post a an old nostalgic pic, how about you post up where you’re going and what you’re hauling, for a modern take on the heavies… pretty sure we’d all appreciate that…I know a lot of the younger lads, and those that never came across to Europe like the old wagons and stories that go with, so us oldie retards can enjoy a few modern pics…what do you recon ?

Sounds as music to me ears mate

Would be nice indeed to see some old heavies and the way they got things done back then, compared to the modern day stuff.
Same goes for the routes one has to take, majority of it (in France that is) still takes you up on the RN’s, going through town centres, with here and there a new diversion.

Alas, when do we start with the new topic

[jsutherland]

Same for me [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY].

Sent from my Hol-U19 using Tapatalk

[fergie47]

pv83:
Sounds as music to me ears mate
Alas, when do we start with the new topic

You’ve already started…

[saviem]

Evening all,

pv 83, Fergie…I can`t wait…old and new…what a super recipe!

Patrick, have you still got that tri drive Volvo on your fleet?..Loved the SARENS pictures, I remember a really odd heavy haulage DAF 3600 with the cab repositioned low down in front of the steer axle operated by Baelzen from Veldhoven, Wonder what happened to her? Heavy haulage across Europe is a fascinating subject, with some real characters involved in the industry!

Fergie, Dispatcher , totally agree with your comments about heavy haulage…the amazing engineering solutions that quite “normal” outfits could come up with to get the job done, well, were quite amazing… particularly in the 50s through to the 70s, when there was not the over bearing legislation forcing everyone into a “compliant, not innovative” approach to the job!

Thanks for all your time and effort, makes for really interesting reading and looking!

Cheerio for now.

[saviem]

pv83:
Came across this pic as well, belonged to Belgium haulier Belin, odd looking Mack, was it a one off?

Apologies, I’m still well behind the pace , and read things well out of date…busy on the latest cut of sileage, plus a thousand other jobs…And now I’m only just in, so will have to be brief, and just a bit about these marvellous lorries that came from the engineers at Allentown, (when cash reserves were almost zero, and they had to work with what they had got!!!

Belin`s Mack F 900 serie…the only one ever operated in Belgie.

No ED TRUCK, she is pure Mack, and one of 5 versions of the F900,
All powered by the Mack V8 375/ 500hp ENDT 9866 engine, all as original build manual, 5 speed, or 12 speed Mack, plus Torque Converter, rear ends a mixture of Plaindrive, and hub reduction Mack bogies.
45 off, F985s concrete mixer chassis, for Certified Concrete New York
15 off F9956 given to the Moroccan Army
1 off sold into Sweden as a civilian heavy hauler…(I think that this girl is being restored in Holland).
5 off F995 all with Mack 80000 lb rears, (one of these is the GBellin…at the time of the picture the Tisim Belin vehicle), fitted with a day cab 88in BBC, (bumper to back of cab), F serie cab…(imagine doing 15 hrs at 200 tonnes in that…
3 off F997 for Persia, (Shas Army), I think that 2 are still in service with Iran-Dena Heavy Haulage…110000 lb PlainDrive rear ends
4 off F 9976, again PlainDrive rear ends, two of which operated by Transmosa in Espagne, (certainly one of which was sold to my friends at Alibert in France, and is often pictured, and wrongly described as an “ex MABO” lorry…no it came from Allentown to Transmosa in Espagne. These had Clark CL 16820 Automatic transmissions., and Clark FDS22610 front driven axles. That gives 73 total, but my “Factory” records show only 72 built! The oddball is one of the F995s, which could be the Chris Miller "Bonzo Bear, (NFV 308 T), which started out as an F700 specification, but fitted with Clark axle sets.

The speciality of Mack was these simple, but extremely rugged on/off highway heavy haulers, from the DMs through to the F800, and F900s. They were without doubt premier choice equipment for low maintenance, high utilisation work in this area. Uncomfortable…yes…need a skilled driver…yes…but what tools they were!

In Europe,
Mamomoet…and all their "hy-brid Macks…DMs crossed with F Serie…and V12 Detroits…good clients of Floor, (FTF)
ISTRANS, Saint Martin de Crau…(and I loved their first address,“Route Dynamite”)…and still in business today,…Tractomas 6x6 and MAN…
Tisim Belin, Celles Belgie…now big Volvo 8x4s and wonderful trailers… started in 1947, then Scania L serie…but in the 70s Mack, DMs and the F900 pictured!
Pesanti & Eccezionali …
Soc ALIBERT…
Transmodernos (later TRANSMOSA), from Barcelona…and not just the F900s, how about their Hayes W-HDX, with its howling ■■■■■■■ 27 litre VTA 1700C, and Clark CL 16820 auto box…2, 205, 000 lb gtw…

The history of Mack worldwide is intriguing, from success to near ruin…then rising from the ashes, but perhaps their best time was when Renault funded them, but allowed them to develop…and now under Volvo…well…they are a brand…and only a brand…

I must away for my , (late ) tea…and the old brain is tired

But I loved my time with Mack, I loved the people, and their uncompromising products and engineering…so I will look up some of my diaries and see if I can give you all a little taster of just what lorries they made, and possibly of more interest…just who ran them…and there were lots in Europe and the Middle East…Particularly after the Bernard/Mack plant was shipped to Iran, (via Dutch Hauliers), and now produces , (anticeptic), Volvo lorries!

Cheerio for now.

[mushroomman]

David Miller:
Interesting, as always, Saviem.
550 vehicles would have been a good order but I am struggling to think what commodity the Bulgarians had to trade. Beetroot?
You are dead right about the Hungarocamion boys. I once had an alternator problem with the Crusader and went into their Budapest depot hoping for assistance. Not only did they remove the alternator, test it, find a broken connection, fix and replace but a small army of apprentices fell on the lorry, washed it, greased it and gave it a service and then refused any kind of payment. Of course in those days it was logical as we all depended on each other for help when it was needed. Would it were still so.

David

Hi David, maybe all those loads of Bulgarian plonk that we delivered over the years helped to pay towards those Berliet’s along with a couple of loads of men’s suits for Hepworth’s The Tailors in Leeds. I remember collecting a full load of leather goods once in Rumania which were boxes of boots’ belts and wallets and the consignee on the C.M.R. happened to be… British Leyland.

Regards Steve.

[edtruck]

Good morning Saviem, and thank you for clearing that up,

Just out of interest, is the Mack F900 operated by Istrans the same vehicle as the one operated by Bellin?

As an aside, it is particularly refreshing to find a fellow Francophile with an affinity for Mack, and heavy haulage!!

[gazbo]

pv83:

jsutherland:
Thanks again John for yet another fascinating post.

I certainly concur

Do you know perchance how many of those Nicolas “super lorries” were built?
First one that comes to mind is the one once owned by Sunters Bros/Econofreight, wonder what happened to it…
Fortunately I was at the Nicolas works some years ago to pick up some modular units.
Little did I know at the time about the history of Nicolas, but the lads where friendly enough to give me a quick tour around, interesting to see and surely there were some “artifacts” of some 40 or 50 odd years ago…
Only thing that changed now for them is that they’re in a group with Scheurle and Kamag these days, I wonder if the German counterparts can appreciate the French approach of how to get labour done

Cheers, Patrick

Hi Patrick

I served my time with Econofreight, it was 1986 when Econofreight acquired Sunters and Wynns. To the last of my knowledge the Tractomas ended up in India. Econofreight had many owners including Brambles Heavy Contracting and now is owned by ALE heavylift. were to this day I still for them as Workshop Manager. I am still in touch with Nicolas so I asked how many Tractomas’s have been built. the answer was a little bit surprising. they do not know the exact number, they say “at least 35, no more than 40, but for sure more than 35”. I hope this helps you.

Kind regards

Gary

[pv83]

Gazbo:

pv83:

jsutherland:
Thanks again John for yet another fascinating post.

I certainly concur

Do you know perchance how many of those Nicolas “super lorries” were built?
First one that comes to mind is the one once owned by Sunters Bros/Econofreight, wonder what happened to it…
Fortunately I was at the Nicolas works some years ago to pick up some modular units.
Little did I know at the time about the history of Nicolas, but the lads where friendly enough to give me a quick tour around, interesting to see and surely there were some “artifacts” of some 40 or 50 odd years ago…
Only thing that changed now for them is that they’re in a group with Scheurle and Kamag these days, I wonder if the German counterparts can appreciate the French approach of how to get labour done

Cheers, Patrick

Hi Patrick

I served my time with Econofreight, it was 1986 when Econofreight acquired Sunters and Wynns. To the last of my knowledge the Tractomas ended up in India. Econofreight had many owners including Brambles Heavy Contracting and now is owned by ALE heavylift. were to this day I still for them as Workshop Manager. I am still in touch with Nicolas so I asked how many Tractomas’s have been built. the answer was a little bit surprising. they do not know the exact number, they say “at least 35, no more than 40, but for sure more than 35”. I hope this helps you.

Kind regards

Gary

Hiya Gary,

Cheers for the info mate, and typically French answer isn’t it? Er…We’re not sure but it might have been…

How was the reliability of the Tractomas compared to the Scammell’s? And was it easy to drive?
Wouldn’t have guessed it ended up in India…

I’ve recently been added to the Econofreight/Sunters/Wynns/ALE page on Facebook, did nearly took me half a day to plough throughout all that footage, but I was chuffed to see it all, if only I was born some 30 years earlier
I will have a search in my archives, if my memory serves me well, I’ve got some pic’s of Econofreight transporting some big parts out of the Air Products works that went to the Czech Republic…

Cheers, Patrick

[pv83]

Cheers once again Saviem for such a detailed answer, that’s the main reason I was attracted (along with all the input of Fergie and others) to this particular thread!

I know which DAF you recall to, there was a similar one in the v.d. Vlist fleet, although it had the 95 cab, it was named “the sniffler” for obvious reasons…
There was a Mercedes SK version as well, a Amsterdam based haulier used it in the early 90’s, it then passed on into another heavy haulage fleet and I think they used it until somewhere in the early noughties…
When I get back home I’ll will search the archives, I’m pretty sure I’ve got some footage of all the above vehicles… and otherwise Robert1952 can help us out here?

Cheers, Patrick

[gazbo]

pv83:

Gazbo:

pv83:

jsutherland:
Thanks again John for yet another fascinating post.

I certainly concur

Do you know perchance how many of those Nicolas “super lorries” were built?
First one that comes to mind is the one once owned by Sunters Bros/Econofreight, wonder what happened to it…
Fortunately I was at the Nicolas works some years ago to pick up some modular units.
Little did I know at the time about the history of Nicolas, but the lads where friendly enough to give me a quick tour around, interesting to see and surely there were some “artifacts” of some 40 or 50 odd years ago…
Only thing that changed now for them is that they’re in a group with Scheurle and Kamag these days, I wonder if the German counterparts can appreciate the French approach of how to get labour done

Cheers, Patrick

Hi Patrick

I served my time with Econofreight, it was 1986 when Econofreight acquired Sunters and Wynns. To the last of my knowledge the Tractomas ended up in India. Econofreight had many owners including Brambles Heavy Contracting and now is owned by ALE heavylift. were to this day I still for them as Workshop Manager. I am still in touch with Nicolas so I asked how many Tractomas’s have been built. the answer was a little bit surprising. they do not know the exact number, they say “at least 35, no more than 40, but for sure more than 35”. I hope this helps you.

Kind regards

Gary

Hiya Gary,

Cheers for the info mate, and typically French answer isn’t it? Er…We’re not sure but it might have been…

How was the reliability of the Tractomas compared to the Scammell’s? And was it easy to drive?
Wouldn’t have guessed it ended up in India…

I’ve recently been added to the Econofreight/Sunters/Wynns/ALE page on Facebook, did nearly took me half a day to plough throughout all that footage, but I was chuffed to see it all, if only I was born some 30 years earlier
I will have a search in my archives, if my memory serves me well, I’ve got some pic’s of Econofreight transporting some big parts out of the Air Products works that went to the Czech Republic…

Cheers, Patrick

it was very unreliable compared to the Scammells, the weak point was the gearbox. It was a Clark box the type used in the front loader shovels. it just wasn’t man enough also there was such a jump in speed in the top 2 gears. as the clutches failed we would swop them around and blank the top gear gate off which obviously this slowed it down. then another clutch went and again another gear was blanked off. We blanked so many gears off that it finally did 26 mph,
I remember bringing it back from Ellesmere Port, I thought I was never going to get home. It had the biggest steering wheel you have ever seen and the play in the steering was unreal. you had to turn the steering wheel about a third of a turn before it did anything so you can imagine travelling down the road trying to correct the steering with such a big steering wheel, it was all over the road you were knackered driving that thing. The noise was deafening and as for the ride, you were constantly bounced up and down. it was not a nice thing to drive but it looked the part. I think the gearbox totally failed and thats when it was sold.
I did several loads out of Air products at Acrefair and Edmonton in London. We took some big pieces (40 plus metres if I think right) out of there considering the roads around that area.

All the best

Gary

[harry_gill]

Hiya,
Didn’t Wynns have a slogan “You make it we’ll move it” seem to remember seeing
it when in there Trafford Park yard which by the way was still there not all that
long ago but haven’t been over the “Motoway in the sky” for a while now but it is
or was only visible from the cab of a lorry, too low in a car I would think.
thanks harry, long retired.

[pv83]

Well…so much for the famous French comfort then eh
Wasn’t it possible to swap the 'box for an Allison?
The driveline of an FTF was a Detroit engine coupled to an Allison, never heard horror stories about that…?
Didn’t Mack had the same set-up for the heavies?

Cheers, Patrick

[pv83]

harry_gill:
Hiya,
Didn’t Wynns have a slogan “You make it we’ll move it” seem to remember seeing
it when in there Trafford Park yard which by the way was still there not all that
long ago but haven’t been over the “Motoway in the sky” for a while now but it is
or was only visible from the cab of a lorry, too low in a car I would think.
thanks harry, long retired.

Proper slogan that is!