Saviem's fan club (Part 1)

[pv83]

Davidoff:

pv83:
A “heavy” pair I’ve spotted at a Daf workshop in Perpignan

Patrick

Hi Patrick

Lovely motors those are.
The first one, if not modified (especially the headlights in the radiator grill) will in all likelihood be a TRH320 with Berliet’s naturally-aspirated V8. This would date her back to somewhere around 1974-1976. Very small chance she might be a straight-6 TRH280 but those were extremely rare in 6x4 execution.

Second one is given away by her beige dashboard and would thus be a representative from the very early days after Berliet + Saviem became Renault Véhicules Industriels or RVI, so somewhere between 1981 and 1983. She might be a straight-6 turbocharged R310, but i presume more likely an R360 with her turbocharged V8, the direct successor to Berliet’s TRH350.

I expect John “SAVIEM” in his Renaultphile will put me right somewhere on the above…

Very, very well-kept vehicles in any case. True eye candy.
Thanks for having posted these pictures.

No worries mate, don’t know if they’re still out and about, I’ve taken the pics about 5 or 6 years ago…

I remember on a another occasion though, being saved by an “old” Berliet, this was on a steep hill at Vesoul on the RN19 coming in from Belfort, the drive shaft on the left just snapped (now that’s Scania quility for ya ), so after ringing Scania assistence, some dodgy looking Berliet turned up, driver stepped out and asked me if I had some sort of problem… Obviously, I told him. He hooked up and his last question was what the overall weight was, told him was about 70T, and wasn’t that going to be a problem for the Berliet…? He just smiled, got in the cab, lowered his window, put his thumb up, I did the same, and… Well what happend then was just unbelieveble, I just heard the rouring of a massive V8 engine (or so I thought) and it pulled me easily up that hill and into the nearest Scania workshop. And since that day I’ve became a massive fan of the older french marques
Only downside is that it happended all so quickly that I didn’t got the chance to make some pics…

[harry_gill]

Hiya,
On the subject of Scania halfshafts, when driving a virtually new “80” I “bust
a shaft”. Trailer proven to be overloaded but got underway by me using the
difflock and it being my own idea got a “legal trailer” and dragged it from
Dover to Blackburn without incident the only problem was the tendency to
pull towards the kerb, Oh’ and got a big thank you from the fleet engineer
when it was found the snapped shaft was suffering metal fatigue, and not
driver negligence, always handy having a bit of mechanical knowledge in
days of yore.Never knew if anyone else had travelled such a distance having
used the same idea/method, or even thought of trying it.
thanks harry, long retired.

[windrush]

Not quite the same Harry but when our Sed Ak 400’s shed teeth from the rearmost Eaton diff (which happened under warranty on most of them!) we drove them back home with the first axle in diff lock, but not for any great distance as they were usually local.

Pete.

[buzzer]

Remember when we had seven new 400 Globetrotters just before the release of the FH’s and they let half shafts go often till they realized as said before there was a metal fault but it cost loads especially in France when you had to get towed of a motorway. Never thought of using the diff like Harry did, bit of a brain wave that, Buzzer.

[davidoff]

Hello Patrick, hello all,

I seem determined to exhaust my supply of Saurer pictures and information.
So here is some more on this beautiful marque, also to demonstrate that they were not only present in road-bound vehicles but also did their fair share of railway equipment.
Early July I took my better half on a weekend around the Swiss Alps (not in a lorry I hasten to add). There are few mountains the Swiss didn’t drill a hole in, this being no exception: we passed the beautiful FURKA pass (with its historic narrow-gauge railway tunnel) where the association the Dampfbahn Furka-Bergstrecke now run a heritage railway with a handful of steam locomotives on the old mountain route.

Here is some more information for those curious to know more about this area which incidentally sees the River Rhône’s source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furka%E2% … lp_railway

Anyways, I spotted the historic steam train and took these few pictures:

Upon closer inspection, my assumption was confirmed, a SAURER!

I will post a few more pictures (and a close-up video of the start and stop procedure) a little later. Right now my Dad is offering to share a small measure of Talisker Single Malt with me, an offer which I obviously cannot decline!

Regards
David

[saviem]

Evening all,

My goodness me, what a collection of memory stimulation…“little Scanias”, (Harry I did not like them either), “lumpy” old Berliets, (thanks for the images Patrick), and Unics…related to Saurers, (Michel), and lots of Saurers and Berna`s, (nice images David Junior)!..and Railway engines, of the diesel variety!..many of dear old British Rails railcars had Saurer Diesels…and Oilys beautiful and handsome 300 D serie tipper, one of the Worlds best looking 8 wheelers…

Right back in the 1900s Rudolph Diesel, and later Harry Ricardo( from the UK) co operated with Suisse manufacturer Saurer on diesel design! That is just how long ago Saurer started with diesels, By 1934 Saurer could offer 4 to 12 cylinder engines from 50hp up to 240 hp…by 1937 they were experimenting with water cooled Turbocharging. In the `50s Saurer offered an 11.6 litre V8 @ 190 hp rising to 240hp, (often seen when mounted in a lorry with bonnet, without the side panels in place). Developments of this basic design of engine would eventually have a power output in excess of 500hp for military use.

Then there were the V12s and V16s with outputs rising from 600 hp up to around 2500 hp. The wonderful and so smooth supercharged D1 Seriewith its Supercharger and power approaching 300 hp , yet a change to Turbocharging in the mid 70s was much lamented by many operators, despite a 30 plus bhp boost to 330 hp! In front of wonderful "in house" produced transmissions with retarders, (only replaced by licence built ZFs in the late 70s). When Saurer were suffering from a bloody nose in their exports to South America and the Gulf.

But there is a theme that ties together the pictures that we have enjoyed from Michel, Patrick, and Davidoff…the V8 engine…why?

Well lets look at the V design of the 50s and through to the `70s. Unic, partner of Simca, and ultimately owned by the Agnelli families Fiat, had developed their first V8 engine launched in 1964, as the V8 MZ62 of 10.766 litres, (119x121mm), 225 hp @2600 rpm. By 1967 this had morphed into the Serie M62S, of 11.88 litres, (125x121mm), then the V84S with a capacity near to 14 litres and giving 310hp, but then in the 70s came the V85@ 14.88 litres, (135x130mm) and 340 hp @2400rpm. A superb engine, with a few “niggles”, that would by corrected in operation. So good that it became the powerunit for the premium OM range…in fact the OM 190 and 260 “export” models were total Unic lorries even down to the tilting Unic version of the Fiat cabin as fitted to the 190s…but the other power units for OM were from Saurer designs!

But whilst this engine range was being developed Fiat were heavily involved with Saurer, in fact Saurer were looking to Fiat to support them financially as well as exchanging manufacture and design data.

The dilemma that presented itself to Fiat was that their new range of in line 6 cylinder engines, the 13.88 litre 8210 had a potential well in excess of 340 hp, and the V85, even when developed into the stillborn 15.55 litre V86 was becoming close to the potential “base line” performance of the new Fiat V8 8280 Serie, which owed much of its ancestory to the Saurer Fiat collaboration of the same period! And the engineers that developed that wonderful V8 of 17litres, (arguably a sweeter more drivable engine than any produced in Sweden), had at their core the team from Unic, who had crossed the Alpes to Turin bringing their expertise and knowledge of V serie development with them. While at the same time it may have been the end of “true” Unic production in France, but the Bourbon Lancy plant became the manufacturing centre for the Fiat, (and later Iveco), 13.88 litre engine.

So there we have a strong link between three Vs…Unic, Fiat, and Saurer…but could there be another link, a fourth■■?

Well yes,

If you look at Berliets disasterous V800 serie of V8s of the 60s, a frantic revving 6910cc (100x110mm) litre( which I described in an earlier post), then came the equally disasterous 825 Serie, fitted to the sensational TR300 with its KB2400 cab of 1970/71. 12.760 litres, (125 x 130mm), 300hp @2500 rpm, …only 778 were sold before (the brave), decision to stop production was made mid `72. This engine was redesigned as the 08.35.30. (135 x 130 mm) and 14.88 litres… a coincidence no doubt…perhaps so…but… Jacques Barbet Director General of Unic, had previously been Works Director at Berliets “new” Bourg en Bresse factory…and had much knowledge of the redesign of Berliets V8!

And Patrick, that old Berliet would have little problem at around 100 tonnes… I suspect that it would have been a well worn, and rather ancient looking TBO Berliet "retired " Heavy Haulage tractor. Appearances deceive, Ive seen them work solo at the late 100 tonnes with Mayer, and Scales, Dessierer Zucconi et al, without any drama… Quite some lorry!

Interesting history though, the link between the French, Italian, and Suisse V8s

Im away to my bed.

Cheerio for now.

[pv83]

Hiya Saviem,

It wasn’t a TBO but a TR that came to the rescue, still worn out though… I’ve tried to search for some pics of it on the www, but couldn’t find any…

Thanks for the history lesson there mate, didn’t know all of that. Is there a museum somewhere where they hold all those older models and engines?

Cheers, Patrick

[michel]

GBO near Cerdon.

[zb_anorak]

Saviem:
…If you look at Berliets disasterous V800 serie of V8s of the 60s, a frantic revving 6910cc (100x110mm) litre( which I described in an earlier post), then came the equally disasterous 825 Serie, fitted to the sensational TR300 with its KB2400 cab of 1970/71. 12.760 litres, (125 x 130mm), 300hp @2500 rpm, …only 778 were sold before (the brave), decision to stop production was made mid `72. This engine was redesigned as the 08.35.30. (135 x 130 mm) and 14.88 litres… a coincidence no doubt…perhaps so…but… Jacques Barbet Director General of Unic, had previously been Works Director at Berliets “new” Bourg en Bresse factory…and had much knowledge of the redesign of Berliets V8!..

Fascinating speculation. I had to check the numbers, and you are right- the engines are identical in bore and stroke! I looked at pictures of the Berliet V825 and V835, and they look identical, so the later engine would seem to be a simple overbore of the earlier one, rather than a rebadged Unic! IIRC, the Unic 340 was launched before the TR320, so I doubt that the design of the Berliet engine influenced the Unic one unless, of course, the 135x130 size had been tested by Berliet long before its production launch. Intriguing stuff. I will attempt to find introduction dates of the various engines, so we may speculate further. That website detailing the build of the Unic V86 prototype might hold some clues.

[sammyopisite]

A few heavy duty Berliets off the internet even though one as a Renault badge and a big thank you to Saviem for sharing his knowledge with us

cheers Johnnie

[fergie47]

Questions…to the “Professors”…

When an engine is " built under licence" for instance, like Bernard did with the Gardner, who actually built it, an engine manufacturer, or, in this case Bernard themselves…and what exactly did they manufacture, the engine, (block, heads, crank, pistons bell housing, sump etc) less all the ancillaries, or did that include the fuel pump…I’m guessing the starter, dynamo, injectors were “off the shelf” standard stuff, I.e. Lucas…but, just who built, and exactly what was " built under licence"…

Merci

[buzzer]

Hi Fergie trust you and yours are well, maybe this will help with your enquiry, JD.

[windrush]

I am certainly no ‘professor’ but I understand that Gardner’s were very upset when Bernard modified their engines by putting the injector pump on the opposite side which (presumably) meant drastically altering the crankcase and timing sprockets at least besides other changes. I would love to see a pic of one, maybe Saviem can come up with the goods?

Pete.

[buzzer]

Fergie done a little research, Buzzer

PS you will have to magnify to read but interesting.

[carryfast]

Fergie47:
Questions…to the “Professors”…

When an engine is " built under licence" for instance, like Bernard did with the Gardner, who actually built it, an engine manufacturer, or, in this case Bernard themselves…and what exactly did they manufacture, the engine, (block, heads, crank, pistons bell housing, sump etc) less all the ancillaries, or did that include the fuel pump…I’m guessing the starter, dynamo, injectors were “off the shelf” standard stuff, I.e. Lucas…but, just who built, and exactly what was " built under licence"…

Merci

With the exception of Ford’s UK Dagenham plant in the day for example even an ‘in house’ manufacturing operation will often involve a lot of sub contracted outsourcing of component manufacturing.

Which in this case probably translated as the ‘licence’ just meaning payment for the intellectual property rights contained in the design drawings for the engine components and then distributing them to Bernard’s relevant sub contractors like foundry and possibly some machining operations depending on the level of facilities available in house.

While personally I think the idea is counter productive in handing over an export advantage to foreign competitors thereby costing jobs and economic growth in the domestic economy.

[saviem]

sammyopisite:
A few heavy duty Berliets off the internet even though one as a Renault badge and a big thank you to Saviem for sharing his knowledge with us

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cheers Johnnie

Evening all,

Oh boy, Johnnie…what a feast…may I bore you with a little background?

TR320 , suffering under the weight of a" small" Cat, mind you her 60 tonne gtw should have been enough, even though the 1974 08 35. 30 14. 88 litre naturally aspirated engine “only” gave 310hp (din). But look at the deflection on that bogie!

SCALEX…where should I start?..Well that picture perhaps…Now, where in the United Kingdom was that picture taken?

The lorry is one of the later three TRH 350 TRS models acquired by SCALEX, following the take over of Transports Robert Leyx, by Groupe SCAC Bolero in 1978. With a maximum gross train weight of 180 tonnes, (often, and easily exceeded), these were the first Berliets actually purchased by SCALEX, (Leyx). Previously most of the fabulous fleet operated from their premises at 73/75 AvenueLouis Roche, at Gennervilliers , Hauts de Seine, were leased from Via Location, the vehicle leasing subsidiary of Groupe Suez, whose offices in La Defense I was to know very well over the years!

Robert Leyx had created a magnificent and diverse business, originating from Saint Ouen, they had rapidly outgrown their facility and moved to the large site adjacent to the Frigidair factory in Gennervilliers. But not just transport, Export Packing for Massey Ferguson, Armoured vehicles for Panhard, servicing of the RATP Paris Underground system, plus looking after, and installing an inenumerable amount of automatic car washing systems, both above and below ground in Paris! Talk about diversification…plus a heavy haulage operation, a normal transport operation, Heavy lifting, (using UK Coles Cranes as a back bone), and some of the most exotic and forward thinking trailer designs for heavy loads in Europe.

The Periphique, every above carriageway sign for that and most of France`s Autoroutes were carried by Lyx/SCALEX…and then SCALES…all the same outfit! And most of the escalators that we have ridden upon as well…oh and all Poclain equipment was distributed via Leyx…even the 140 tonne EC1000, with its three V8 Detroit engines!

Poclain was how Robert Leyx came to lease his lorries, he went to Via with a 12 month deal from Poclain, and Via took a gamble…what resulted was the only French Heavy Haulier to lease the bulk of his tractive equipment…and some of it was very exotic…Relax cab 4x2 TRs with triple reduction rear axles, Relax cab TR250 6x4s with ultra short wheelbases and GBH heavy duty 20 tonne bogies back in the `60s. Then there were the Krupps, the L serie Scanias, and “my” SM Saviem 6x4s @110 tonnes, (regarded, with good humour, as a minimum starting weight)!!!

Then there were my sweethearts, the big Willeme`s with their 12 cylinder 12V71N 400 hp motors, and ultra quick changing RTO12513 Fullers@ 200 tonnes nominal rating…gosh I can still remember shunting one of these around their Gennervilliers premises, behind the colossal “white Elephant”, (the warehouse and overhead cranage, named as such for its size, not its UK meaning)! and loving the rise and fall of the engine note…(and being offered a “career change” should I wish to leave Saviem, and return to lorry driving)!.. I took that as a great compliment indeed!

I spent many, many hours @ Leyx/SCALEX/SCALES…and knew the company so well, really I should write a little about them for you all to enjoy, another time perhaps, what an outfit, and I think that they still exist today…but nothing could compare to the site of their 100, 150, 200, and 250 tonne Willemes, plus “my” TBO Berliet, easily pulling 400 tonnes of EDF Transformer along on a 24 line Dellatier module…KTA 450 & 335 ■■■■■■■■ and V8 &12 cylinder Detroit all in symphonious harmony!

But then Johnnie puts up a real “odd ball” the handsome Red, Relax cab with bonnet, GBO Berliet 120 tonne, (nominal), tractor of Transports Chatelet from Bourg en Bresse. Converted from a second hand rigid dump chassis, the HC, (Hors Code), like our outside Construction and Use, 6x4 15M3 chassis was powered by M640A 14.780 cc 6 cylinder turbocharged 320 hp diesel,(that air cleaner on the right side weighed approx. 73 kgs)! which with its Kaiser triple axle semi low load trailer had a road speed approaching 57kph…and that was the big problem with the" pure" heavy haulage lorries…They were a bit slow when empty!

Answered by Johnnies last picture, and another company that I was to get to know well, STAG, (Societe des Transports Automobiles de Gennevilliers), created in 1944 by André Puigelier, and during the time that I knew them based in Argenteuil, Val dOise. The picture shows Stags Delattre-Levivier 12 line module, pulled, and pushed by the two Renault TRH360 TS 6x4 units that operated as either ballast locomotives, as depicted, @35 tonnes gvw/180 tonnes gtw, (used as a starting weight)! Powered as standard with the V8 14.88 litre 08.35.30 360 hp unit. That boiler looks to be destined for one of Frances new Nuclear plants which were such a boost to the French Heavy Hauliers in the late 70s and 80s. For that 12 line to be used payload must have been around the 300 tonne mark.Those TRHs were the first Berliet/Renaults purchased by Stag since the Saviem Berliet “merger” in 75! Though they did keep on buying Saviems…(thank goodness)!

Stag also ran Willeme TGs, a really rare 6x6 TR400 .95 T Renault , (with a massive cooler behind the cab for the Torque Converter, and going back the most beautiful TBO Berliets, and Diamond Ts that looked…well…not like any Diamond T you have ever seen!

Apologies if I have gone on, but I spent years with these boys, and the memories just flood back…I cannot describe what it was like to see, let alone the skill needed to thread a 250 tonne Willeme, and a 200 tonne transformer on a 16 line Delattre module out of the narrow exit from Alsthoms Saint Ouen works onto the narrow…and very, very, rippled cobbled surface of Rue des Bateliers…but I would not be surprised if Sammyopposite had been through that entrance/exit, as I often saw Pickfords lorries in there…

Thanks for the memories!

I need a cool Bollinger to calm down!

Cheerio for now

[saviem]

Fergie47:
Questions…to the “Professors”…

When an engine is " built under licence" for instance, like Bernard did with the Gardner, who actually built it, an engine manufacturer, or, in this case Bernard themselves…and what exactly did they manufacture, the engine, (block, heads, crank, pistons bell housing, sump etc) less all the ancillaries, or did that include the fuel pump…I’m guessing the starter, dynamo, injectors were “off the shelf” standard stuff, I.e. Lucas…but, just who built, and exactly what was " built under licence"…

Merci

Hello all,

Just a quick one,

Fergie, Buzzer has defined licence building exactly.

I had forgotten about Mike Ponsonby`s piece in Big Lorry Blog…further along he gave a very detailed exposition on the 185 hp Bernard engine , based on the Gardner licence. Really worth looking up. Mike knows his stuff with lorries! He did an excellent piece on Meadows diesels as well.

Edouard Bernard engineered his Gardner licence built engines to suit the French market, (rather more than did Latil). It was a true manufacturing operation, the cylinder blocks came from the foundry at Arcuil to be machined. They had their own in house heat treatment, machine shops, et al. Bernards engines were Bernard, based upon the licence from Gardner, as were his neighbour Louis Willeme`s 4, 6, & 8 cylinder straight engines, Willeme manufactured, and based on a Deutz design licence.

In many ways Bernards engines were more forward than those from Patricroft, I would hope that Michel would have some pictures to show, but if not I can drone on boringly about my beloved Bernards…and they sounded pure Gardner…until Mack arrived!

Cheerio for now.

[jsutherland]

Thank you Saviem again for your wonderful insights.

Johnny

[michel]

A fine example of a Bernard with Pelpel cab in preservation.

[zb_anorak]

This thread has gone from strength to strength this year, thanks mainly to the knowledge of Monsieur Saviem. A happy and prosperous new year to the thread, and all who sail in her.