Salisbury alleged Russian connection [Merged]

Winseer:
Russians were assassinating people back in the 70’s - by walking past them, and firing a small tube of hydrogen cyanide into the victim’s face, like a pepper spray.

The gas dissipates, and it then looks like the victim died of natural causes.

There’s no reason why this very effective method of “getting rid of dissidents” would not be used today, rather than some 70 years past it’s sell-by-date gas made by another geezer, Vil Mirzayanov who not only invented the stuff in the first place - but now lives as a dissident exile himself? If I were Putin, and behind all this - I would have silenced this naughty boy first, dontya think?
As for Mirzayanov’s bizzare claim that “only a state could weaponize this susbtance” when it was designed in the first place to be safer to handle for the assailants using it. In other words, he’s contradicting what it says on the tin of the very stuff he invented. FFS you can’t make this crap up!

I suggest that either the subtance used was not Novichok then, or a spent supply no longer effective was used - taken from Porton Down Labs, where they have all kinds of samples of nasty stuff that would be illegal to be held anywhere else in the world, such as Iraq who had over a million of their citizens killed BY NATO forces - over WMDs that he didn’t even have, and was not properly investigated in not having them.

I believe that this “Salisbury Incident” is shaping up to be another rather serious “False Flag” event, with the motive that NATO wants more funding, the EU wants the UK to drop Brexit, and come back in with it’s financial support and military personnel to go to war - not against Islamic State, that are currently aiding NATO member Turkey in killing Kurds in Syria, nor against Islamic Terrorists in general - who are afforded so many human rights by Strasbourg - that they are now all but above the law, once geographically within the EU. Instead, NATO and the EU would risk starting a war against a nuclear superpower which we cannot possibly win, due to the “Mutually Assured Destruction” scenario, just in case anyone thinks that Putin’s “Dead Man’s Switch” is a bluff on his part.

Our mainstream news channels - don’t cover this story of the past week of course. It’s now two nuclear superpowers we are up against, rather than one. Solidarity cuts both ways, in a world where “Mud Slinging” is now more commonplace than “getting things done for your people” in politics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1ue1c_smKQ

Ironically China aligning with Russia against ‘the west’ and Putin not rejecting such ‘support’ out of hand,would be a predictable sign of hostile intent from ‘the East’ regardless.Suggesting agendas within agendas on both sides.Resulting in what seems like unjustifiable and dodgy EU v Russia aggro and posturing has turned into something very different in the form of China finally and inevitably showing its hand and true colours.IE it’s no longer a case of the rights and wrongs of May’s/EU’s silly ‘issues’ v Russia.Or how we got to this position mostly owing to the treacherous actions of western governments in selling us out to the Chinese Communist monster and stupidly stitching up Russia after the end of the Cold War,together with equally treacherous Middle East foreign policy.

It’s now turned into the predictable issue of an ‘East’ v ‘West’ argument.While appeasement,in the form of western fears of defence policy based on the mutually assured destruction deterrent,won’t solve the problems it will just make them worse.On that note we should tell that slimy Commy Chinese zb and his fat Korean crony to zb off and do one and if he wants a fight we’ll give him one on the basis of better dead than red.Stopping all further trade links with China being part of that. :bulb:

Now awaits May and the EU to back down and look for an exit strategy saying that they didn’t want to upset their stinking Chinese Commy masters.While the silence from the White House,regarding Jin Pong’s obvious agenda,says it all. :unamused:

The West don’t like popular leaders that are going to be in place for a while now. Jinping recently got made “President for Life” and of course Putin is now solidly in power for another full term as well.

The West have a news blackout in place on those countries with the “Wrong” (Right Wing) leaders. Countries such as Poland, Hungary, Austria, and more recently we’ve not heard much from Italy or even Germany either.

The AfD are now the official opposition party in Germany, so there’s now a bit of a news blackout there.
FIveStar got the most seats in the Italian election, but not an overall majority - so the others say “They lost then”, and are trying to put together a coalition of the losers, thus keeping the winner of the biggest seats out of government outright, just like they did to Geert Wilders in Holland.

Russia and China have come a long way, now they’ve moved to the Right of the former Communist States that they still are deep down, of course. I’m sure the West would be even MORE horrified if Russia and China’s leadership re-instated an Imperial Monarchy in both countries… What a bunch of hypocrites the UK would be - to oppose THAT! At least “Republican” nations would have a valid argument against such a move from the East…

As time goes on, our best hope is that the rest of Europe gets to have had enough with the limp Liberals that have been ruling them for so long, and polzarize back to the politics of Left and Right that, at least gets things done. I’ve never voted Labour in my life - but the world didn’t end for me when Blair won in 1997. Life can and does go on - when the party you didn’t vote for is in charge, providing they don’t get you killed over some ■■■■-and-bull story in the process.

All this would have helped Corbyn at the polls - but this Anti-Semitic thing has now blown up in his face, to take his attention off the ball again. That’s twice he’s gained possession of the ball - and twice he’s quickly dropped it…

First time when as a Eurosceptic himself, he sides with Remain in the referendum - despite the sitting PM Cameron being for Remain. If he’d sided with Leave, he’d be PM by now.

Second time when more recently, he started asking awkward questions of Theresa May’s government over this Salisbury thing - only to be shouted down by his own MPs. Ball dropped, political ground not gained after all.

It won’t be Corbyn and Corbynites that destroy the Labour Party. It’s already been destroyed by those who want the Labour Party to be “of the center” instead of “of the Left”. We’re told there’s 172 of such Labour MPs… Labour cannot win a majority with them, and the maths suggests they cannot win without them. ! We shouldn’t envy being Leader of the Opposition right now folks!

The Conservatives are losing ground, because they are not looking after their core voters any more. Crackdown on Pensioners? More expensive and less access to the now Means-tested NHS? Death Duties now applying to people with decent properties, rather than a million quid in the bank? Victims of Crime, no longer looked after by the police? No “Right to Self Defence” as promised once upon a time by Cameron? and of course “No implementation of Brexit” - just kick it down the road forever…

Well, once the public accepts that it doesn’t make any difference if Labour or Tory are in power - for Brexit to be nobbled, and killed in the crib - they’d rather have a government that gives than one that takes. I’m sure the EU would happily lend us all the money needed for Labour’s borrowing plans as well, but clearly not the Tory ones, although Theresa May is in a campaign to shift the Tories to the center, so they can qualify for these EU “favours”… Well F— that!

We want our country back. I’d rather make friends with a Leftie than drop Brexit, condemn my kids to WWIII, or even see the younger generation out of work like I was during the Thatcher Era - all happen again.

I’ve never voted Labour, but would vote Labour if I despised the Tories enough. That didn’t happen in 1997, when I voted for Ashdown’s Libdems. I always vote though, so like over a million people in 1997 - I could imagine myself voting for a party I don’t actually believe in - just to get rid of the dithering Tories who’ve just gone too far as per usual with the endangering politik thing. :imp:

Winseer:
The West don’t like popular leaders that are going to be in place for a while now. Jinping recently got made “President for Life” and of course Putin is now solidly in power for another full term as well.

The West have a news blackout in place on those countries with the “Wrong” (Right Wing) leaders. Countries such as Poland, Hungary, Austria, and more recently we’ve not heard much from Italy or even Germany either.

The AfD are now the official opposition party in Germany, so there’s now a bit of a news blackout there.
FIveStar got the most seats in the Italian election, but not an overall majority - so the others say “They lost then”, and are trying to put together a coalition of the losers, thus keeping the winner of the biggest seats out of government outright, just like they did to Geert Wilders in Holland.

Russia and China have come a long way, now they’ve moved to the Right of the former Communist States that they still are deep down, of course. I’m sure the West would be even MORE horrified if Russia and China’s leadership re-instated an Imperial Monarchy in both countries… What a bunch of hypocrites the UK would be - to oppose THAT! At least “Republican” nations would have a valid argument against such a move from the East…

As time goes on, our best hope is that the rest of Europe gets to have had enough with the limp Liberals that have been ruling them for so long, and polzarize back to the politics of Left and Right that, at least gets things done. I’ve never voted Labour in my life - but the world didn’t end for me when Blair won in 1997. Life can and does go on - when the party you didn’t vote for is in charge, providing they don’t get you killed over some ■■■■-and-bull story in the process.

All this would have helped Corbyn at the polls - but this Anti-Semitic thing has now blown up in his face, to take his attention off the ball again. That’s twice he’s gained possession of the ball - and twice he’s quickly dropped it…

First time when as a Eurosceptic himself, he sides with Remain in the referendum - despite the sitting PM Cameron being for Remain. If he’d sided with Leave, he’d be PM by now.

Second time when more recently, he started asking awkward questions of Theresa May’s government over this Salisbury thing - only to be shouted down by his own MPs. Ball dropped, political ground not gained after all.

It won’t be Corbyn and Corbynites that destroy the Labour Party. It’s already been destroyed by those who want the Labour Party to be “of the center” instead of “of the Left”. We’re told there’s 172 of such Labour MPs… Labour cannot win a majority with them, and the maths suggests they cannot win without them. ! We shouldn’t envy being Leader of the Opposition right now folks!

The Conservatives are losing ground, because they are not looking after their core voters any more. Crackdown on Pensioners? More expensive and less access to the now Means-tested NHS? Death Duties now applying to people with decent properties, rather than a million quid in the bank? Victims of Crime, no longer looked after by the police? No “Right to Self Defence” as promised once upon a time by Cameron? and of course “No implementation of Brexit” - just kick it down the road forever…

Well, once the public accepts that it doesn’t make any difference if Labour or Tory are in power - for Brexit to be nobbled, and killed in the crib - they’d rather have a government that gives than one that takes. I’m sure the EU would happily lend us all the money needed for Labour’s borrowing plans as well, but clearly not the Tory ones, although Theresa May is in a campaign to shift the Tories to the center, so they can qualify for these EU “favours”… Well F— that!

We want our country back. I’d rather make friends with a Leftie than drop Brexit, condemn my kids to WWIII, or even see the younger generation out of work like I was during the Thatcher Era - all happen again.

I’ve never voted Labour, but would vote Labour if I despised the Tories enough. That didn’t happen in 1997, when I voted for Ashdown’s Libdems. I always vote though, so like over a million people in 1997 - I could imagine myself voting for a party I don’t actually believe in - just to get rid of the dithering Tories who’ve just gone too far as per usual with the endangering politik thing. :imp:

Firstly the Nationalist vote across Europe and even Russia,‘if’ that’s what Putin really ever was ( doubtful now ),is deluded if it thinks that it has anything in common with Communist China and scumbags like Jin Ping.

On that note,bearing in mind China’s predictable posturing and now showing its true colours,it’s just as possible for the whole stunt to have been a Russian/Chinese false flag op to provide an excuse for aggression against the west,as it is a Brit/Ukrainian/EU joint enterprise to damage Brexit and make the case for more aggressive moves by the EU,against Putin.

As for being frightened of WW3 on the basis of mutually assured destruction that type of appeasement and cowardice is actually more likely to end up in war than telling both Russia and China that if they want an East v West fight they’ll get one and it won’t be fought on conventional terms.As in the case of the Cold War the choice is either we settle the issues diplomatically or we take us all out.

In which case suggest that you check out the comments in support of Putin.Which go along along the lines of all the predictable suspects,in the form of support of Iran,Pakistan and ironically even India,all backing an alliance with China/North Korea and Russia in attacking us pre emptively. :open_mouth:

On that note I’m reaching the conclusion that what we’ve seen was a false flag ‘but’ probably not carried out by May/EU/Ukraine after all,but more likely that stinking Eastern axis of evil and which should be met accordingly with the threat of bring it on if it wants a war based on mutually assured destruction.

So just maybe Trump is reading it right in appointing mad dog Bolton.On the simple clear basis that appeasement never works and it’s becoming equally clear who the bad guys are here and their intentions and Putin has failed the test of reformed Nationalist v clandestine Soviet Chinese ally.Firstly by not distancing himself from Iran,let alone going along with China in not just one but now two clear threats of nuking us.In which case I’d rather go with Bolton and Trump here than Putin let alone the commy piece of zb Jin Ping and his fat North Korean side kick.Regardless of all the rights and wrongs that have brought us to where we are.

While it’s equally clear that May and Johnson are a weak pathetic liability in all this along the lines of taking a knife,in the form of a few ‘diplomatic expulsions’,to a gun fight in the form of us kicking out all of the enemy threat within which has obviously been placed here as sleepers and meeting Russian and Chinese threats of nuclear war with a bigger threat of same in return and if that means taking out the northern hemisphere so be it.This is no time for cowardice in the face of a clear threat of nuclear war against us by Russia and China and its Eastern alliance and therefore our to our national security.

Eloquently argued as ever cf,not sure i go with this axis of evil appropos China/Korea this could just as easy be a ff op from the Mossad/CIA outfit that gave us 9/11 is that beyond comprehension ? The true Axis of Evil resides in City of London,Vatican and WashingtonDC.

Carryfast:

Winseer:
The West don’t like popular leaders that are going to be in place for a while now. Jinping recently got made “President for Life” and of course Putin is now solidly in power for another full term as well.

The West have a news blackout in place on those countries with the “Wrong” (Right Wing) leaders. Countries such as Poland, Hungary, Austria, and more recently we’ve not heard much from Italy or even Germany either.

The AfD are now the official opposition party in Germany, so there’s now a bit of a news blackout there.
FIveStar got the most seats in the Italian election, but not an overall majority - so the others say “They lost then”, and are trying to put together a coalition of the losers, thus keeping the winner of the biggest seats out of government outright, just like they did to Geert Wilders in Holland.

Russia and China have come a long way, now they’ve moved to the Right of the former Communist States that they still are deep down, of course. I’m sure the West would be even MORE horrified if Russia and China’s leadership re-instated an Imperial Monarchy in both countries… What a bunch of hypocrites the UK would be - to oppose THAT! At least “Republican” nations would have a valid argument against such a move from the East…

As time goes on, our best hope is that the rest of Europe gets to have had enough with the limp Liberals that have been ruling them for so long, and polzarize back to the politics of Left and Right that, at least gets things done. I’ve never voted Labour in my life - but the world didn’t end for me when Blair won in 1997. Life can and does go on - when the party you didn’t vote for is in charge, providing they don’t get you killed over some ■■■■-and-bull story in the process.

All this would have helped Corbyn at the polls - but this Anti-Semitic thing has now blown up in his face, to take his attention off the ball again. That’s twice he’s gained possession of the ball - and twice he’s quickly dropped it…

First time when as a Eurosceptic himself, he sides with Remain in the referendum - despite the sitting PM Cameron being for Remain. If he’d sided with Leave, he’d be PM by now.

Second time when more recently, he started asking awkward questions of Theresa May’s government over this Salisbury thing - only to be shouted down by his own MPs. Ball dropped, political ground not gained after all.

It won’t be Corbyn and Corbynites that destroy the Labour Party. It’s already been destroyed by those who want the Labour Party to be “of the center” instead of “of the Left”. We’re told there’s 172 of such Labour MPs… Labour cannot win a majority with them, and the maths suggests they cannot win without them. ! We shouldn’t envy being Leader of the Opposition right now folks!

The Conservatives are losing ground, because they are not looking after their core voters any more. Crackdown on Pensioners? More expensive and less access to the now Means-tested NHS? Death Duties now applying to people with decent properties, rather than a million quid in the bank? Victims of Crime, no longer looked after by the police? No “Right to Self Defence” as promised once upon a time by Cameron? and of course “No implementation of Brexit” - just kick it down the road forever…

Well, once the public accepts that it doesn’t make any difference if Labour or Tory are in power - for Brexit to be nobbled, and killed in the crib - they’d rather have a government that gives than one that takes. I’m sure the EU would happily lend us all the money needed for Labour’s borrowing plans as well, but clearly not the Tory ones, although Theresa May is in a campaign to shift the Tories to the center, so they can qualify for these EU “favours”… Well F— that!

We want our country back. I’d rather make friends with a Leftie than drop Brexit, condemn my kids to WWIII, or even see the younger generation out of work like I was during the Thatcher Era - all happen again.

I’ve never voted Labour, but would vote Labour if I despised the Tories enough. That didn’t happen in 1997, when I voted for Ashdown’s Libdems. I always vote though, so like over a million people in 1997 - I could imagine myself voting for a party I don’t actually believe in - just to get rid of the dithering Tories who’ve just gone too far as per usual with the endangering politik thing. :imp:

Firstly the Nationalist vote across Europe and even Russia,‘if’ that’s what Putin really ever was ( doubtful now ),is deluded if it thinks that it has anything in common with Communist China and scumbags like Jin Ping. I can’t say I know that much about “Kingpin”, but I reckon we should compare his record for being a scumbag vs Criminals and public enemies over what he’s done or not done to foreigners, children, and ordinary citizens in China that are not criminals… If he wants to sentence 1001 criminals to death by 1000 cuts - then he’s welcome. If he wants to look the other way whilst a factory poisons innocent kids though? Well. Last I heard, he was only chucking criminals in jail, sentencing actual killers of innocents to death, and this “Human Rights” aspect that the West doesn’t seem to like about the Chinese Leadership ever since Mao - is more about “Don’t like strong leaders of superpowers” than anything else. China is bankrolliung the entire planet at the moment, and if we really wanted to enact a silly false flag vs China rather than Russia - their sanctions would include dumping western treasury paper onto the market, and collapsing our entire banking system for starters!

On that note,bearing in mind China’s predictable posturing and now showing its true colours,it’s just as possible for the whole stunt to have been a Russian/Chinese false flag op to provide an excuse for aggression against the west,as it is a Brit/Ukrainian/EU joint enterprise to damage Brexit and make the case for more aggressive moves by the EU,against Putin.
These two countries, if they had the destruction of the west in mind - could do it pretty effectively on their own. If Russian troops were to invade, what are we going to do about it, when the first nuke that detonates in a Russian city triggers a reply of around 3300 missiles fired at Western targets all over? China already own us via the global debt system. No more debt = the entire west goes into a depression that makes the 1930’s look like a teddy bear’s picnic by comparison. They don’t need an excuse to thump the west. They could and would do it - any time they see fit, no excuses needed. Power allows for such brazen actions, and both Putin and Jinping now have such power, much to the West’s disgust.

As for being frightened of WW3 on the basis of mutually assured destruction that type of appeasement and cowardice is actually more likely to end up in war than telling both Russia and China that if they want an East v West fight they’ll get one and it won’t be fought on conventional terms.As in the case of the Cold War the choice is either we settle the issues diplomatically or we take us all out. If you keep prodding the bear with a sharp stick - sooner or later, he’s going to get up and knock your head off. That’s not “Cowardice”, that’s “Stupidity” to provoke in the first place. If the bear is asleep, then bloody well leave him asleep! There’s no Russian troops invading Poland/Germany/Austria/Czech Republic/Slovakia or any other nation we’d actually give a ■■■■ about if they were invaded. Would we really give a ■■■■ if he took back the rest of Ukraine, and backstab-turned upon Erdogan right now? I reckon Turkey have got it coming, personally - for the genocide of the Kurds currently going on in Northern Syria…

In which case suggest that you check out the comments in support of Putin.Which go along along the lines of all the predictable suspects,in the form of support of Iran,Pakistan and ironically even India,all backing an alliance with China/North Korea and Russia in attacking us pre emptively. :open_mouth: That’s not even on my radar, and I suggest that such comments are made by “EU trolls”. Remember, that according to the West - there are only “Russian Trolls” - with anyone not agreeing with the EU’s line vs Russia right now “being one of them”. FFS I’m currently accused of being one, with ancestory on this Island going back over 1000 years, never having been East of Germany, and certainly not ever having been paid for anything “Left” of my RHS steering wheel!

On that note I’m reaching the conclusion that what we’ve seen was a false flag ‘but’ probably not carried out by May/EU/Ukraine after all,but more likely that stinking Eastern axis of evil and which should be met accordingly with the threat of bring it on if it wants a war based on mutually assured destruction. I reckon the EU has simply asked May for a favour, which being the Remainer she is - she’s jumped at the chance to “help out”. The government, whilst we are still in the EU - relies heavily on the ECB to buy up our fresh bond issues each and every month. If that music stops, so does the credit line. There’s some sense to why our political leaders lickcock in the EU - but not much overall. It’s a straight-forward Empire/Vassal State relationship, with us on the crappy end of the stick this time around.

So just maybe Trump is reading it right in appointing mad dog Bolton.On the simple clear basis that appeasement never works and it’s becoming equally clear who the bad guys are here and their intentions and Putin has failed the test of reformed Nationalist v clandestine Soviet Chinese ally.Firstly by not distancing himself from Iran,let alone going along with China in not just one but now two clear threats of nuking us.In which case I’d rather go with Bolton and Trump here than Putin let alone the commy piece of zb Jin Ping and his fat North Korean side kick.Regardless of all the rights and wrongs that have brought us to where we are. The balance of power in the world, isn’t what it was. People that DO on the Right, and people that DEMAND on the Left. You get what you pay for, and you can’t pay for something you no longer are prepared to do to achieve. The worm is turning, and after many decades of Left-leaning politik in the world - the pendulum is finally beginning to swing back Right again. The best defence against any kind of War - is being prepared to wage it yourself as a nation of course. Britain, looks quite weak with it’s “pacifisist Leftie youngsters” - but I believe Britain is beginning to wake up now. Young people are increasingly “Shy Conservatives” these days. You can’t “come out”, because of all the trolling you’d get. So you keep stumn, and now over 18, - a new bunch of voters awaits to be won over by a new kind of leader we clearly don’t have yet. I don’t think that leader “appealing to the teenage generation” is Corbyn. Smart kids know that if old folk are now dying off, then “where’s the money coming from” when it comes to all the wants and desires of the Left as it stands? As yet, the Left have yet to preach “systemic debt default” as a peaceful means of protest, a bit like one of Gandhi’s sit-down affairs, but with knobs on!

While it’s equally clear that May and Johnson are a weak pathetic liability in all this along the lines of taking a knife,in the form of a few ‘diplomatic expulsions’,to a gun fight in the form of us kicking out all of the enemy threat within which has obviously been placed here as sleepers and meeting Russian and Chinese threats of nuclear war with a bigger threat of same in return and if that means taking out the northern hemisphere so be it.This is no time for cowardice in the face of a clear threat of nuclear war against us by Russia and China and its Eastern alliance and therefore our to our national security.

Here, we are agreed. I reluctantly voted Conservative last year, with me believing at the time that “Brexiteer Boris” might yet save us from May’s limp resistance to Remainers behind the scenes, still calling the shots. Jacob Rees Mogg - is never to be found, when there’s some political knife-work to be done, it seems. History doesn’t wait for losers though, and I reckon right now that Theresa May is falling faster than Corbyn is - which makes the result of the next general election as it stands, another hung parliament - but with Labour now having more seats than the Conservatives. I still don’t agree with you about “Eastern Aggression” though, because an alleged attack against a non-Brit hiding as an apparent fugitive in plain sight - pales into insignificance to the hundreds of innocent Brits killed ON British Soil BY Islamic militants over the years since the so-called “War on Terror” started. Well, you don’t make friends with the enemy in a war, unless they’ve surrendered, or WE have. WTF are we doing with this softly-softly approach to Islam, whilst we have to make up stuff about Russia not even killing British Citizens, let alone endangering the wider public? We’re not really going to buy this crock-o-■■■■■ are we? :frowning:

Winseer:
Here, we are agreed. I reluctantly voted Conservative last year, with me believing at the time that “Brexiteer Boris” might yet save us from May’s limp resistance to Remainers behind the scenes, still calling the shots. Jacob Rees Mogg - is never to be found, when there’s some political knife-work to be done, it seems. History doesn’t wait for losers though, and I reckon right now that Theresa May is falling faster than Corbyn is - which makes the result of the next general election as it stands, another hung parliament - but with Labour now having more seats than the Conservatives. I still don’t agree with you about “Eastern Aggression” though, because an alleged attack against a non-Brit hiding as an apparent fugitive in plain sight - pales into insignificance to the hundreds of innocent Brits killed ON British Soil BY Islamic militants over the years since the so-called “War on Terror” started. Well, you don’t make friends with the enemy in a war, unless they’ve surrendered, or WE have. WTF are we doing with this softly-softly approach to Islam, whilst we have to make up stuff about Russia not even killing British Citizens, let alone endangering the wider public? We’re not really going to buy this crock-o-■■■■■ are we? :frowning:

You actually voted for Boris? The man who, by all accounts, only supported Brexit at the last moment because of his personal ambitions?

Bear in mind, Labour with the SNP (who are anti-Tory and much closer to Labour ideologically, and were once an anti-common-market party also) were only a few seats short of the Tories at the last election. Only another 20 seats for Labour would produce some sort of left-wing government at the next election.

I suspect Labour is hoping that an election is not called for at least another 12 months now, once Brexit has occurred and we are into the transition period, because any earlier and it’s likely that the perfidious Blairites would try to cancel Brexit and would probably tear the party apart over the issue.

Really, unless the country shows a decisive shift towards a left-wing Brexit (which at least has a coherent agenda that most workers would support), then I don’t know how the issue is going to play out.

manalishi:
Eloquently argued as ever cf,not sure i go with this axis of evil appropos China/Korea this could just as easy be a ff op from the Mossad/CIA outfit that gave us 9/11 is that beyond comprehension ? The true Axis of Evil resides in City of London,Vatican and WashingtonDC.

Ironically I’m on the pro Israel anti Iran side of the fence.Although I can’t understand why Israel and the US sees Saudi Arabia as any less of a threat,let alone a dodgy ally,in that.

While ‘if’ 9/11 involved a conspiracy it’s more likely that it was a warning,in the form of a Chinese/Russian/Iranian/North Korean alliance bunker buster cruise missile attack, than the idea that America attacked itself.America then having chosen,to go along with Winseer’s ideas,by covering it up and bowing down with yet more appeasement of China,than to retaliate.With GW2 and the Afghanistan wild goose chase being part of the diversionary plan for the consumption of the Trump type vote.

As for the Vatican the only question in that case is it having been infiltrated by the atheistic ideology of Socialism.On that note why would any Pope see any advantage in flooding Catholic Europe with the Islamic demographic ?.

Rjan:

Winseer:
Here, we are agreed. I reluctantly voted Conservative last year, with me believing at the time that “Brexiteer Boris” might yet save us from May’s limp resistance to Remainers behind the scenes, still calling the shots. Jacob Rees Mogg - is never to be found, when there’s some political knife-work to be done, it seems. History doesn’t wait for losers though, and I reckon right now that Theresa May is falling faster than Corbyn is - which makes the result of the next general election as it stands, another hung parliament - but with Labour now having more seats than the Conservatives. I still don’t agree with you about “Eastern Aggression” though, because an alleged attack against a non-Brit hiding as an apparent fugitive in plain sight - pales into insignificance to the hundreds of innocent Brits killed ON British Soil BY Islamic militants over the years since the so-called “War on Terror” started. Well, you don’t make friends with the enemy in a war, unless they’ve surrendered, or WE have. WTF are we doing with this softly-softly approach to Islam, whilst we have to make up stuff about Russia not even killing British Citizens, let alone endangering the wider public? We’re not really going to buy this crock-o-■■■■■ are we? :frowning:

You actually voted for Boris? The man who, by all accounts, only supported Brexit at the last moment because of his personal ambitions?

Bear in mind, Labour with the SNP (who are anti-Tory and much closer to Labour ideologically, and were once an anti-common-market party also) were only a few seats short of the Tories at the last election. Only another 20 seats for Labour would produce some sort of left-wing government at the next election.

I suspect Labour is hoping that an election is not called for at least another 12 months now, once Brexit has occurred and we are into the transition period, because any earlier and it’s likely that the perfidious Blairites would try to cancel Brexit and would probably tear the party apart over the issue.

Really, unless the country shows a decisive shift towards a left-wing Brexit (which at least has a coherent agenda that most workers would support), then I don’t know how the issue is going to play out.

Beware that “Once Brexit has occured” and “Transition period” are actually mutually exlusive. If there is any kind of Transition period beyond the past 22 months already wasted - then it means that Brexit has NOT happened yet, just as it hasn’t happened for the past 22 months… The passage of time with “nothing happening” favours the EU of course. More money wasted on Brussels, More money borrowed from Brussels to make up the gap. More lies from the Tories to explain why we are apparently throwing even more money at the NHS, whilst contining to throw 11 figures per year at Brussels. The “Brexit Bill” when it comes - had better include the over £20bn we’ve already paid, in my mind totally unnecessary these past 22 months since the referendum result. I still maintain that we needed to DEFAULT our relationship with the EU, since the “Law” otherwise says that “Brexit is actually a legal impossibility” otherwise.

May has kicked Brexit down the road to 2022 now, but I reckon she’ll step aside at her five year mark, because like cameron - she’s in it for the money, and doesn’t really give a ■■■■ about the consequences of her actions. With no more than six months to go before the election, come Autumn 2021 then - whoever takes over the Tory Reins at that point, will be very much a case of "Too little, too late. I don’t believe even Rees-Mogg can recover all the lost ground (five years of running in the wrong direction!) in time for the June 2022 election, which the Tories will then lose.
I predict another hung parliament, but this time with Labour having more seats than the Tories. The SNP still won’t have enough to make up a coalition though, and it’ll be rather messy trying to put together any kind of multi-way coalition involving minor parties, let alone independents, which might swell in numbers in any future election.

If Corbyn in the meantime, hangs onto power, gets rid of his current front bench, and comes out with a proper Left-wing version of Brexit (The economy would have to be in good shape indeed by that point, to pull that off!) - “Brexit not being done” slightly favours Labour by the next election. “Brexit being done, but not being done” (we are in this mickey mouse “transition period” which is just stalling Brexit even further down the road…) - favours the Remainers on both sides. The truth is, the workers that both sides claim they support - are actually supported by NO one in parliament right now.

The Wealthy, the Tax Evaders, and the New Self-Employed, now also taught how to “get out of paying taxes” - will continue to vote Tory. Benefit claimants, the infirm, and perhaps now the Aged - will be voting Labour. The Libdems will continue to slide, and the working taxpayers will be scratching their heads, wondering who they can actually vote for who both represents them, and actually has a chance of making it to Westminster… A few odd Independents here and there… Not enough to cause more than another “Hung Parliament Headache” for the Westminster mainstream though.

I didn’t want to vote for Remainer May, until Boris ended up in her cabinet. I got it wrong thinking he would put a stop on her, when with this salisbury thing - is clearly the other way around.
That Boris is eager to comply with this EU conspiracy against both Brexit and Russia right now - means that Boris was actually an infiltrating Remainer into the Leave camp all along. Well I was fooled! If Boris was a proper Brexiteer, he would be using this Salisbury Incident to mount a leadership challenge, “telling all” as it were. This scandalous behaviour by our senior government ministers - could have been an ideal opportunity for Boris to wield the knife - but no. And where’s Rees-Mogg, Hunt, Gove, and Davis all of a sudden■■? There’s work to be done, and it’s like half the cabinet are on holiday, and leaving all the knife work to the seniors?!

Winseer:

Carryfast:
Firstly the Nationalist vote across Europe and even Russia,‘if’ that’s what Putin really ever was ( doubtful now ),is deluded if it thinks that it has anything in common with Communist China and scumbags like Jin Ping. I can’t say I know that much about “Kingpin”, but I reckon we should compare his record for being a scumbag vs Criminals and public enemies over what he’s done or not done to foreigners, children, and ordinary citizens in China that are not criminals… If he wants to sentence 1001 criminals to death by 1000 cuts - then he’s welcome. If he wants to look the other way whilst a factory poisons innocent kids though? Well. Last I heard, he was only chucking criminals in jail, sentencing actual killers of innocents to death, and this “Human Rights” aspect that the West doesn’t seem to like about the Chinese Leadership ever since Mao - is more about “Don’t like strong leaders of superpowers” than anything else. China is bankrolliung the entire planet at the moment, and if we really wanted to enact a silly false flag vs China rather than Russia - their sanctions would include dumping western treasury paper onto the market, and collapsing our entire banking system for starters!

On that note,bearing in mind China’s predictable posturing and now showing its true colours,it’s just as possible for the whole stunt to have been a Russian/Chinese false flag op to provide an excuse for aggression against the west,as it is a Brit/Ukrainian/EU joint enterprise to damage Brexit and make the case for more aggressive moves by the EU,against Putin.
These two countries, if they had the destruction of the west in mind - could do it pretty effectively on their own. If Russian troops were to invade, what are we going to do about it, when the first nuke that detonates in a Russian city triggers a reply of around 3300 missiles fired at Western targets all over? China already own us via the global debt system. No more debt = the entire west goes into a depression that makes the 1930’s look like a teddy bear’s picnic by comparison. They don’t need an excuse to thump the west. They could and would do it - any time they see fit, no excuses needed. Power allows for such brazen actions, and both Putin and Jinping now have such power, much to the West’s disgust.

As for being frightened of WW3 on the basis of mutually assured destruction that type of appeasement and cowardice is actually more likely to end up in war than telling both Russia and China that if they want an East v West fight they’ll get one and it won’t be fought on conventional terms.As in the case of the Cold War the choice is either we settle the issues diplomatically or we take us all out. If you keep prodding the bear with a sharp stick - sooner or later, he’s going to get up and knock your head off. That’s not “Cowardice”, that’s “Stupidity” to provoke in the first place. If the bear is asleep, then bloody well leave him asleep! There’s no Russian troops invading Poland/Germany/Austria/Czech Republic/Slovakia or any other nation we’d actually give a ■■■■ about if they were invaded. Would we really give a ■■■■ if he took back the rest of Ukraine, and backstab-turned upon Erdogan right now? I reckon Turkey have got it coming, personally - for the genocide of the Kurds currently going on in Northern Syria…

In which case suggest that you check out the comments in support of Putin.Which go along along the lines of all the predictable suspects,in the form of support of Iran,Pakistan and ironically even India,all backing an alliance with China/North Korea and Russia in attacking us pre emptively. :open_mouth: That’s not even on my radar, and I suggest that such comments are made by “EU trolls”. Remember, that according to the West - there are only “Russian Trolls” - with anyone not agreeing with the EU’s line vs Russia right now “being one of them”. FFS I’m currently accused of being one, with ancestory on this Island going back over 1000 years, never having been East of Germany, and certainly not ever having been paid for anything “Left” of my RHS steering wheel!

On that note I’m reaching the conclusion that what we’ve seen was a false flag ‘but’ probably not carried out by May/EU/Ukraine after all,but more likely that stinking Eastern axis of evil and which should be met accordingly with the threat of bring it on if it wants a war based on mutually assured destruction. I reckon the EU has simply asked May for a favour, which being the Remainer she is - she’s jumped at the chance to “help out”. The government, whilst we are still in the EU - relies heavily on the ECB to buy up our fresh bond issues each and every month. If that music stops, so does the credit line. There’s some sense to why our political leaders lickcock in the EU - but not much overall. It’s a straight-forward Empire/Vassal State relationship, with us on the crappy end of the stick this time around.

So just maybe Trump is reading it right in appointing mad dog Bolton.On the simple clear basis that appeasement never works and it’s becoming equally clear who the bad guys are here and their intentions and Putin has failed the test of reformed Nationalist v clandestine Soviet Chinese ally.Firstly by not distancing himself from Iran,let alone going along with China in not just one but now two clear threats of nuking us.In which case I’d rather go with Bolton and Trump here than Putin let alone the commy piece of zb Jin Ping and his fat North Korean side kick.Regardless of all the rights and wrongs that have brought us to where we are. The balance of power in the world, isn’t what it was. People that DO on the Right, and people that DEMAND on the Left. You get what you pay for, and you can’t pay for something you no longer are prepared to do to achieve. The worm is turning, and after many decades of Left-leaning politik in the world - the pendulum is finally beginning to swing back Right again. The best defence against any kind of War - is being prepared to wage it yourself as a nation of course. Britain, looks quite weak with it’s “pacifisist Leftie youngsters” - but I believe Britain is beginning to wake up now. Young people are increasingly “Shy Conservatives” these days. You can’t “come out”, because of all the trolling you’d get. So you keep stumn, and now over 18, - a new bunch of voters awaits to be won over by a new kind of leader we clearly don’t have yet. I don’t think that leader “appealing to the teenage generation” is Corbyn. Smart kids know that if old folk are now dying off, then “where’s the money coming from” when it comes to all the wants and desires of the Left as it stands? As yet, the Left have yet to preach “systemic debt default” as a peaceful means of protest, a bit like one of Gandhi’s sit-down affairs, but with knobs on!

While it’s equally clear that May and Johnson are a weak pathetic liability in all this along the lines of taking a knife,in the form of a few ‘diplomatic expulsions’,to a gun fight in the form of us kicking out all of the enemy threat within which has obviously been placed here as sleepers and meeting Russian and Chinese threats of nuclear war with a bigger threat of same in return and if that means taking out the northern hemisphere so be it.This is no time for cowardice in the face of a clear threat of nuclear war against us by Russia and China and its Eastern alliance and therefore our to our national security.

Here, we are agreed. I reluctantly voted Conservative last year, with me believing at the time that “Brexiteer Boris” might yet save us from May’s limp resistance to Remainers behind the scenes, still calling the shots. Jacob Rees Mogg - is never to be found, when there’s some political knife-work to be done, it seems. History doesn’t wait for losers though, and I reckon right now that Theresa May is falling faster than Corbyn is - which makes the result of the next general election as it stands, another hung parliament - but with Labour now having more seats than the Conservatives. I still don’t agree with you about “Eastern Aggression” though, because an alleged attack against a non-Brit hiding as an apparent fugitive in plain sight - pales into insignificance to the hundreds of innocent Brits killed ON British Soil BY Islamic militants over the years since the so-called “War on Terror” started. Well, you don’t make friends with the enemy in a war, unless they’ve surrendered, or WE have. WTF are we doing with this softly-softly approach to Islam, whilst we have to make up stuff about Russia not even killing British Citizens, let alone endangering the wider public? We’re not really going to buy this crock-o-■■■■■ are we? :frowning:

Firstly do you really think that ‘if’ it was a May/EU/Ukrainian instigated false flag in the EU accusing Russia of carrying out a WMD attack here that Russia would then have replied with the threat of a nuclear attack.As opposed to setting up May and then seeing the reactions of his allies when he made a needless nuclear threat.To which he then got his answer in the form of clear Chinese support.When ‘if’ Putin was genuine he’d have been happy to just take the moral high ground by saying that the EU has shown more bad faith in its dealings with Russia and reject China’s support out of hand in limiting it to just that Russian v UK/EU argument.In which the aim of all sides should just be the de militarisation of the old Russian buffer states and dropping of all EU/NATO moves into Ukraine.Instead of which Russia blew it by going for a WMD warning shot to create a pretext for war and testing the support of China as part of that.

Which leaves the questions related to the amount of the cash generated by our suicidal trading policy with China a disproportionate amount of which is obviously going into China’s military build up.Why would any western government see that as being in its national interest ‘unless’ it’s got a Chinese gun at its head ( 9/11 ? ) and a cowardly population that isn’t up for the old school defence policy of mutually assured destruction.In which case why should modern generations consider themselves to be more important and less expendable than previous ones of us who happily lived under that defence umbrella in the knowledge that it works.

Why does China need such a military build up assuming it sees the west as a ‘trading partner’ not an enemy.What did Xiaoping mean by it doesn’t matter whether the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice.The obvious inference being that ‘catch’ in that case can only mean ‘kill’ and who/what did he mean by ‘cat’ and ‘mice’.

All of which explains Trump’s U turn on Russian policy and why he’s decided that mad dog Bolton is the right person for the job.

As for Islam wasn’t it Trump who effectively said let’s kick Islam out of the west and assuming that he’s right on that then he’s also obviously right in the appointment of Bolton and his view on this being a Russian/Chinese axis of evil false flag not a May/EU one and I for one would rather trust Trump on that than the slimy commy zb JinPing.Although if you’d rather live under his stinking Chinese rule like any average downtrodden Tibetan because you haven’t got the stomach for an all out East v West nuclear exchange be careful what you wish for.

On that note no I now don’t believe that May ‘did it’.It’s more likely to have been a Russian/Chinese warning for the consumption of Trump and the US,than May and her EU cronies going to all the aggro of pointlessly trying to fit up Putin.With those like you coming up short in letting down all those who’ve died for this country to keep it free by not being prepared to put yourself on the same line as they did.

Winseer:

Rjan:
Really, unless the country shows a decisive shift towards a left-wing Brexit (which at least has a coherent agenda that most workers would support), then I don’t know how the issue is going to play out.

Beware that “Once Brexit has occured” and “Transition period” are actually mutually exlusive. If there is any kind of Transition period beyond the past 22 months already wasted - then it means that Brexit has NOT happened yet, just as it hasn’t happened for the past 22 months… The passage of time with “nothing happening” favours the EU of course. More money wasted on Brussels, More money borrowed from Brussels to make up the gap. More lies from the Tories to explain why we are apparently throwing even more money at the NHS, whilst contining to throw 11 figures per year at Brussels. The “Brexit Bill” when it comes - had better include the over £20bn we’ve already paid, in my mind totally unnecessary these past 22 months since the referendum result. I still maintain that we needed to DEFAULT our relationship with the EU, since the “Law” otherwise says that “Brexit is actually a legal impossibility” otherwise.

May has kicked Brexit down the road to 2022 now, but I reckon she’ll step aside at her five year mark, because like cameron - she’s in it for the money, and doesn’t really give a ■■■■ about the consequences of her actions. With no more than six months to go before the election, come Autumn 2021 then - whoever takes over the Tory Reins at that point, will be very much a case of "Too little, too late. I don’t believe even Rees-Mogg can recover all the lost ground (five years of running in the wrong direction!) in time for the June 2022 election, which the Tories will then lose.
I predict another hung parliament, but this time with Labour having more seats than the Tories. The SNP still won’t have enough to make up a coalition though, and it’ll be rather messy trying to put together any kind of multi-way coalition involving minor parties, let alone independents, which might swell in numbers in any future election.

If Corbyn in the meantime, hangs onto power, gets rid of his current front bench, and comes out with a proper Left-wing version of Brexit (The economy would have to be in good shape indeed by that point, to pull that off!) - “Brexit not being done” slightly favours Labour by the next election. “Brexit being done, but not being done” (we are in this mickey mouse “transition period” which is just stalling Brexit even further down the road…) - favours the Remainers on both sides. The truth is, the workers that both sides claim they support - are actually supported by NO one in parliament right now.

The Wealthy, the Tax Evaders, and the New Self-Employed, now also taught how to “get out of paying taxes” - will continue to vote Tory. Benefit claimants, the infirm, and perhaps now the Aged - will be voting Labour. The Libdems will continue to slide, and the working taxpayers will be scratching their heads, wondering who they can actually vote for who both represents them, and actually has a chance of making it to Westminster… A few odd Independents here and there… Not enough to cause more than another “Hung Parliament Headache” for the Westminster mainstream though.

I didn’t want to vote for Remainer May, until Boris ended up in her cabinet. I got it wrong thinking he would put a stop on her, when with this salisbury thing - is clearly the other way around.
That Boris is eager to comply with this EU conspiracy against both Brexit and Russia right now - means that Boris was actually an infiltrating Remainer into the Leave camp all along. Well I was fooled! If Boris was a proper Brexiteer, he would be using this Salisbury Incident to mount a leadership challenge, “telling all” as it were. This scandalous behaviour by our senior government ministers - could have been an ideal opportunity for Boris to wield the knife - but no. And where’s Rees-Mogg, Hunt, Gove, and Davis all of a sudden■■? There’s work to be done, and it’s like half the cabinet are on holiday, and leaving all the knife work to the seniors?!

If Corbyn was ever about so called ‘left wing’ Brexit then he’d have appointed Hoey as shadow Brexit minister not remainer Starmer. :unamused:

As for Boris like May.He’s all mouth and no trousers in the form of pointless rhetoric directed at Putin.While at the same time avoiding what’s needed in meeting a clear joint Russian and Chinese threat by breaking off all ties with both and getting us back on a proper old school cold war footing.To the point where the Cons obviously prefer Jinping to Trump. :open_mouth: Probably because there are too many among the Con vote who want business as usual with China and who want to limit any argument with Russia to just the same old one of the EU being top dog in Europe.

Winseer:

Rjan:
[…]

Beware that “Once Brexit has occured” and “Transition period” are actually mutually exlusive. If there is any kind of Transition period beyond the past 22 months already wasted - then it means that Brexit has NOT happened yet, just as it hasn’t happened for the past 22 months… The passage of time with “nothing happening” favours the EU of course. More money wasted on Brussels, More money borrowed from Brussels to make up the gap. More lies from the Tories to explain why we are apparently throwing even more money at the NHS, whilst contining to throw 11 figures per year at Brussels. The “Brexit Bill” when it comes - had better include the over £20bn we’ve already paid, in my mind totally unnecessary these past 22 months since the referendum result. I still maintain that we needed to DEFAULT our relationship with the EU, since the “Law” otherwise says that “Brexit is actually a legal impossibility” otherwise.

You’re living in a dreamworld if you think that Britain will walk away without paying for existing commitments. The fact is that the EU holds the cards of being in control of our major import/export market - and together they are 27 of our nearest neighbours including 4 of the bigger world economies (two of which are as big or bigger than us separately, and together they are ten times as economically powerful), and it’s time right-wingers wake up to the fact and put their ridiculous chauvinism aside.

Brexit is not going to involve any direct economic gains for Britain - the costs of leaving will dwarf our net contributions. It is going to involve an economic price to pay for the benefit of regaining democratic control.

May has kicked Brexit down the road to 2022 now, but I reckon she’ll step aside at her five year mark, because like cameron - she’s in it for the money, and doesn’t really give a ■■■■ about the consequences of her actions. With no more than six months to go before the election, come Autumn 2021 then - whoever takes over the Tory Reins at that point, will be very much a case of "Too little, too late. I don’t believe even Rees-Mogg can recover all the lost ground (five years of running in the wrong direction!) in time for the June 2022 election, which the Tories will then lose.
I predict another hung parliament, but this time with Labour having more seats than the Tories. The SNP still won’t have enough to make up a coalition though, and it’ll be rather messy trying to put together any kind of multi-way coalition involving minor parties, let alone independents, which might swell in numbers in any future election.

On the contrary, we are back in the era of two-party politics with real choices to be made between Tories and Labour.

If Corbyn in the meantime, hangs onto power, gets rid of his current front bench, and comes out with a proper Left-wing version of Brexit (The economy would have to be in good shape indeed by that point, to pull that off!) - “Brexit not being done” slightly favours Labour by the next election. “Brexit being done, but not being done” (we are in this mickey mouse “transition period” which is just stalling Brexit even further down the road…) - favours the Remainers on both sides. The truth is, the workers that both sides claim they support - are actually supported by NO one in parliament right now.

Corbyn has got a proper left-wing, pro-worker version of Brexit. I don’t agree that Brexit being incomplete favours Labour - because whilst the question seems to be open, it will encourage the Blairites to cause ructions, whereas that will abate once it becomes clear that the die is cast and that the choice is between what kind of Brexit we have.

The Wealthy, the Tax Evaders, and the New Self-Employed, now also taught how to “get out of paying taxes” - will continue to vote Tory. Benefit claimants, the infirm, and perhaps now the Aged - will be voting Labour. The Libdems will continue to slide, and the working taxpayers will be scratching their heads, wondering who they can actually vote for who both represents them, and actually has a chance of making it to Westminster… A few odd Independents here and there… Not enough to cause more than another “Hung Parliament Headache” for the Westminster mainstream though.

I didn’t want to vote for Remainer May, until Boris ended up in her cabinet. I got it wrong thinking he would put a stop on her, when with this salisbury thing - is clearly the other way around.
That Boris is eager to comply with this EU conspiracy against both Brexit and Russia right now - means that Boris was actually an infiltrating Remainer into the Leave camp all along. Well I was fooled! If Boris was a proper Brexiteer, he would be using this Salisbury Incident to mount a leadership challenge, “telling all” as it were. This scandalous behaviour by our senior government ministers - could have been an ideal opportunity for Boris to wield the knife - but no. And where’s Rees-Mogg, Hunt, Gove, and Davis all of a sudden■■? There’s work to be done, and it’s like half the cabinet are on holiday, and leaving all the knife work to the seniors?!

If you were fooled by Boris then you are quite possibly the biggest fool I’ve encountered! He has always been staunchly pro-EU - even in a party where it has been totally acceptable not to be so! :laughing:

The truth with Russia is that it is probably the exiled oligarchs who are responsible, and who have the Tories in their pockets.

Frankly, why you even support the Tories - including their crazy crew of Boris, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Fox, and so on - is beyond me.

At least people like Davis have always struck me as having some integrity and political ballast, if not a great deal of sensitivity to reality, and he has realised that they are a busted flush now that it is obvious that the EU has united against the Tories’ ridiculous negotiation strategy, rather than divided amongst themselves as some Brexiteers seriously expected.

And now that it has also become apparent that their trade deal fantasies will be roundly rejected by the electorate, and that one wrong move will hand the keys of No10 over to Corbyn.

Rjan:
If you were fooled by Boris then you are quite possibly the biggest fool I’ve encountered! He has always been staunchly pro-EU - even in a party where it has been totally acceptable not to be so! :laughing:

The truth with Russia is that it is probably the exiled oligarchs who are responsible, and who have the Tories in their pockets.

Frankly, why you even support the Tories - including their crazy crew of Boris, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Fox, and so on - is beyond me.

At least people like Davis have always struck me as having some integrity and political ballast, if not a great deal of sensitivity to reality, and he has realised that they are a busted flush now that it is obvious that the EU has united against the Tories’ ridiculous negotiation strategy, rather than divided amongst themselves as some Brexiteers seriously expected.

And now that it has also become apparent that their trade deal fantasies will be roundly rejected by the electorate, and that one wrong move will hand the keys of No10 over to Corbyn.

It’s clear that Corbyn is a closet remainer just like Johnson.Which is why he appointed remainer Starmer as shadow Brexit minister not Hoey.While it’s equally clear that the only so called Brexit that Corbyn is all about is remain in all but name because the treacherous zb is ideologically opposed to anything which puts National Sovereignty above the EUSSR federal government system.Just as the Cons are.All based on the same project fear bs that a trading relationship,in which we are ruled by people like Juncker and pay a fortune for the privilege of being a net importer,is supposedly a good deal for us.On that note it doesn’t matter how big the EU market is if it isn’t buying our stuff at the same rate that we buy its stuff.Or for that matter Corbyn’s rabble moaning about lack of cash for the NHS while at the same time wanting to pay billions to the corrupt EU.

While it’s no surprise that Corbyn chose to give Putin the benefit of the doubt with communist China weighing in all on the side of obviously still Soviet Putin.No surprise either that Corbyn would be happy for the west to completely surrender to that Chinese/Russian axis by removing what nuclear deterrent we have in the face of Putin’s clear nuclear threat no surprise obviously backed up by China and North Korea.

When what’s needed is to take an isolationist stance by closing our doors to EU rule and stupid expansionist policy and turning to a trade regime which creates trade balance and with it more jobs and taxes to be spent at home on the NHS and our own defence.While also making the independent nuclear deterrent mean what it says and rejecting the dominance and the resulting clear threat from the Russian,Chinese and Asian axis of evil from the East,as part of that.Which also obviously includes throwing out all the corrupt fifth column Russian immigration and dirty Russian cash going into Conservative Party funds and opting out of the globalist trading environment which puts British cash into the military budget of our enemies like China.

While we won’t get that from the same old treacherous establishment Parties of Labour or the Cons.Which obviously doesn’t mean yet another sheep like wasted vote for the treasonous rabble of Labour or the Cons.It hopefully means what it says replacing treacherous Labour or Con MP’s with real patriotic Nationalist ones.

As for Globalism and its natural ally of Socialism they’ve both been proved to have absolutely nothing to offer us.Other than handing the country over to foreign interests in one way or another and we should tell both Corbyn’s and May’s rabble to go and put in a party that works only for the interests of this country,on that basis.While circumstances suggest that Trump and Bolton are a far better bet to keep onside with if we value our freedom,than the ongoing appeasement of the stinking commy Chinese regime and its Russian,Iranian,Pakistani and North Korean allies.

Apparently not been proved,Torys lying!! doesn’t need to be proved their lips were moving.

In fairness the chemical guy said they can’t prove where it came from, only that it was military grade material, and the rest if it isn’t their job to work out the why’s and what fors.

It’s like when people ask me what I’m delivering to them. I don’t know. I wasn’t there when it was picked and packed. I wasnt there when they ordered it. To me they’re pallets of stuff.

Well sort of the same anyway :laughing:

This is a fairly stupidly sensationalized story. Unsurprisingly analysis of the chemical agent doesn’t give its location of manufacture, of course it can’t!

The guy went on to say thats where the government and intelligence agencies come in to broaden the picture.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

If the Cons are lying it was more likely that they just cried WMD attack to make maximum political advantage of the situation.When it just seems like it was mean’t as an insider warning for the attention of MI5.

As for Putin him then meeting May’s dodgy accusations and WMD bollox with the threat of his nuclear arsenal doesn’t exactly seem like the actions of an innocent party,nor does China’s obvious support of that threat and Putin’s equally obvious acceptance of that support.

A former Russian spy and traitor is attacked with chemical weapons which are only known to be made in Russia… A state which not that many years ago using radioactive substances to knock someone off in our capital - and which are not really that bothered about outraging the international community.

I cannot for the life of me think why anyone would blame the Russians.

I have yet to see a video of Putin threatening a nuclear attack. I have seen one of his latest weaponry being tested. Is there any possibility that this “threat of Putin’s” is yet another bit of mickey mouse news? China must be pretty ■■■■■■ off with the West always banging on about what amounts to “don’t like your political system there”, which of course, - is none of the west’s business. The Chinese invented Banking, and the Russians invented the AK47… And Novichok. :unamused: I don’t think there is really that large a threat of Nuclear War, since we all know we’re ALL dead if it happens. Perhaps the EU are attempting in their death throes - to “call Putin’s Bluff”, either on his willingness to go to war if attacked first by the West, or to test out his “Dead Man’s Switch” so often spoken of. Putin looked weak when moving closer rather than further from Turkey after one of Russia’s own planes was shot down by Erdogan’s Turkey. Now, we’re told he’s getting even closer still to Erdogan’s Turkey. How would the West feel, if he later turned on Erdogan, and backstabbed him off the planet for good? Would we care in the West? Plenty would be said of Putin’s “Bad Faith”, but he’s already way past that point, with the world told to believe any old tripe that they might want to make up about him - for what exactly? - Just disagee with the current Russian political system as we do in China, but without the world’s largest armed forces to do much outside their own country? China could conquer the Earth easily. But choose to stay at home. Russia could hit any part of the world with an excess of missiles… But choose to reach out, and form trading relations with their energy products, in particular Natural Gas. The west don’t mind pulling the rug on Putin’s overtures though, so I must assume that they think he’s in a continuing position of weakness, perhaps from the effects of past sanctions. Well, I for one - don’t believe that Putin’s Russia is anywhere near as hard-up as we’re led to believe right now. Plenty of money to build these fancy new supersonic nuclear missiles, that make “Rocket Man’s Toys” look like - just that. Toys. Trump has fallen to the deep state, hence why he’s no longer going to prove effective at getting much if any of his key policies done. Protectionism? - Interest rates will rise sharply in the US, as China starts to wean itself off lending cheap money to the States. That would actually suit the monied, as they want a better return on their cashpots after all. Businesses and private citizens wishing to borrow though? - Well that’s going to be a bit harder in future, but not like the 1930’s, more like the 1980’s model for the US economy,looking on.

I don’t think any part of Salisbury has been aimed at “Playing Trump” though. If Trump were a lot more friendly with May, I might have thought different, but my guess right now is that anything happening to May’s Britain in Trump’s eyes, should just hasten her departure, rather than Britain’s departure from the EU, or indeed Britain’s departure from the planet - if things really get ugly before long.

Hoey would have to rise, and Starmer would have to fall - before Brexit voters that currently don’t vote Labour - would start to re-consider. Boris, isn’t an expert at getting things done, just making noises about things that really, are not his remit. When they ARE his area of influence - he’s not much good at getting things done either… He hasn’t achieved much in Iran - for starters! They’ve asked for an honouring of an old debt, which would work out at costing Britain a 9-figure sum to get one single woman released… Boris, has walked away and accepted this “price too far” as “No” for an answer then. It’s Trump that wanted to sour relations with Iran, possibly leading to a War - not any of the NATO leaders. War with Iran ain’t gonna happen any more than WWIII is.

Getting out of the EU is all about re-setting our trade routes about the world. We managed to do that from time to time during the Empire years, when “Gunboat Diplomacy” had failed. Life goes on though, and the biggest set of “committments” seems to be that the UK MUST follow EU laws, even if those laws say “Shaft your own citizens forever, and let as many terrorists into your country as we tell you to”. A major part of voting Leave was “Breaking away from EU laws” rather than “Immigration” or “Jobs”. We MUST break EU laws to Leave, because it’s simply not allowed otherwise. Our civil servants, used to years of over-pay for sitting at desks letting the trade economy run itself - STILL won’t get off their Gold-Plated Pensioned arses and do what needs to be done - re-set each and every trade route that Britain has. If the EU won’t buy our stuff any more, there’s plenty of other countries that will. If the EU won’t lend us credit any more, would more reliance upon the Far East do as any more harm than it already has? The Chinese have kept interest rates as low as they are for as long as they’ve been down here. They totally own the global banking system at this time, like it or not.

The “Costs of Leaving” - PROPERLY will be minus whatever we pay to Brussels now. Stop those payments, and we’re better off straight away by that amount, just as you’re better off if your brother who’s just won the lottery - pays your mortgage for you from now on… Take away a minus - and you get a plus. We don’t need to find “New Markets”, - just mobilize the transport industry, in particular the merchant shipping routes - to take our stuff the EU will not buy out of spite - to faraway places where they’ve already expressed an interest, no drop in price needed, nor arguments about quality, tariffs, etc. As for what we buy - the moment Brexit is completed, the Pound climbs at least back to where it was when we fell into this “uncertainty transition period” that we’ve been stuck in for the past 22 months.

Brexit “not being done” favours Labour, because if it’s actually complete - then the Tories will kill Labour at the polls, the positive uplift from a completed Brexit, being rather quick to show on the balance sheet. How about the last budget before the next general election being “Income tax cut to 15% across the board, no higher rate at all” or “180 New full-sized casualty hospitals built, funded, and fully staffed with new money massively beyond what we could ever borrow in the past - courtesy of what we’re not paying to Brussels any more”.. The Prize, like a big plum cherry - is there for the picking. And all our main party leaders do right now, is pick their noses instead. :unamused: :unamused:

I was fooled by Boris, because I figured he wanted to be PM one day more than he was prepared to continue banging the drum for Europhiles any more. I voted Tory at the last election, because I feared Corbyn’s front bench then and now. Corbyn is just a figurehead, but with Momentum, McCluskey, McDonnell, Khaaan, Starmer, Abbot, and for all I care - Costello too - still about, I’ve already allowed myself to be “polarized” at the last election. That won’t happen at the next one. I believe this long period upto the next election will allow for brand new indepdendent candidates to start making their presences felt on the political stage. Constituency candidates looking to become MPs to serve their local public first and foremost, leaving Westminster out of the equation for a while.

NO politician has taken the “Gandhi-like” option of telling the public to engage on a campaign of “Civil Disobedience” though. That, for the time being - seems like an “ask too far”. Telling Gamblers that they should default their credit cards for example, rather than kill themselves over the shame of “being in debt, and not being able to pay it back”. Imagine the power one could harness - if you turned such downtrodden members of the public to your cause? - It would be like a new-age religion almost… “Default Macht Frei” if you will.

Efforts to get Billionaire Business Leaders to live up to their financial obligations to their own staff, like full pension payouts - have now been deflected into this “Anti Semitic” row of course.

If the only way to break free of the cycle of Centerist, flaccid, political rule pretending to be both Conservative and Socialist at the same time - is war, (as a cull, rather than political solution) - then guess what? History tells us that “War is a continuation of Diplomacy and Politics by other means”. In this war though, it’s the best skill sets multiplied by the most people that wins - not the wealthiest nations, nor highest standards of living in those nations.

That means the West, has actually lost WWIII before it even starts of course.
Not being negative, just a realist. WE cannot afford to have WIII - because we’d all be dead to the last. We’d go out like fabled Atlantis - “The world won’t even remember that we once existed”. The East? - There’s so many of them, spread so far about, that even a global nuclear holocaust could not hope to wipe them all out, even if Technology went back a thousand years in the aftermath…

about 20 yrs ago i saw what i can only describe as a very little man [18 inch high] it popped up ahead of me and ran off into the undergrowth when i was out walking my dog.
anyway i was recently relating the tale online to a Russian friend who lives in Norway and she asked me to write in detail what happened
Day or so later she replied that the FSB in russia had read what i wrote down and the thought was that what i saw was something experimental that had escaped from a laboratory on an American airbase in Suffolk.

corij:
about 20 yrs ago i saw what i can only describe as a very little man [18 inch high] it popped up ahead of me and ran off into the undergrowth when i was out walking my dog.
anyway i was recently relating the tale online to a Russian friend who lives in Norway and she asked me to write in detail what happened
Day or so later she replied that the FSB in russia had read what i wrote down and the thought was that what i saw was something experimental that had escaped from a laboratory on an American airbase in Suffolk.

WTF are you smoking ■■?

can I have some :laughing: