yorkshire terrier:
The lad I mention in the original post is not doing slave labour,he is actually learning the office systems and is working for an international haulier so is learning about how drivers do euro work as well.
He could work in tesco then pay for a licence but a firm is learning him and then paying for all his qualifications in the industry.
I think personally it’s probably a good thing for our industry.
Yes it is, but don’t expect too many on here agreeing with it, it’s far too sensible an option.
ckm1981:
Why do a 2 year “apprentiship” to ultimately learn to drive a HGV when he could go and work in Tesco for £6-7 a hour stacking shelves and then when he reaches the required age do his HGV C & C+E within a month and not have had to spend 2 years earning around £50 a week!
Because the 1 week crash course teaches you nothing other than how to drive the vehicle. Teaches you nothing about loading, route planning, how to use things like straps and chains and importantly it also gives you no experience to take to a prospective employer when applying for a job.
But there’s no reason why a school leaver can’t learn all that on the job driving a 7.5 tonner at a 7.5 tonner type wage just like I did at 18 while at the same time doing their LGV training.
There’s one big reason why they can’t; they won’t have the relevant licence. Or the DCPC until they’ve done their LGV training.
By and large, apprenticeships have always paid lower wages, it’s been that way since Noah got his lads building the ark. The basic reason for it is that with the best will in the world, apprentices are not as productive as fully trained employees so why should they be paid the same wage?
One poster mentioned stacking tiles on a pallet. There’s more to it than just stacking it right. It gets a mind used to doing boring repetitive tasks to a standard within a given time frame, something that stands everybody in good stead and something they don’t teach at school. No different in fact to square-bashing in the services; it teaches discipline, something I think we can all agree is beneficial to any young 'un.
yorkshire terrier:
The lad I mention in the original post is not doing slave labour,he is actually learning the office systems and is working for an international haulier so is learning about how drivers do euro work as well.
He could work in tesco then pay for a licence but a firm is learning him and then paying for all his qualifications in the industry.
I think personally it’s probably a good thing for our industry.
In which case assuming that it’s a genuine ‘apprenticeship’ with an international haulier to be ‘a driver’ there’d obviously also be no problem with doing LGV training in the young drivers’ scheme and then be out on that first run to wherever after passing the test.It seems like the description there puts a lot of emphasis on working in the office and not enough reference to actually working as a driver actually driving which is the only real way that a ‘driver’ will learn how to do Euro work as a ‘driver’.As opposed to the admin side of which doing the CPC before/while doing the LGV training will probably teach most of what’s required in that regard anyway.
ckm1981:
Why do a 2 year “apprentiship” to ultimately learn to drive a HGV when he could go and work in Tesco for £6-7 a hour stacking shelves and then when he reaches the required age do his HGV C & C+E within a month and not have had to spend 2 years earning around £50 a week!
Because the 1 week crash course teaches you nothing other than how to drive the vehicle. Teaches you nothing about loading, route planning, how to use things like straps and chains and importantly it also gives you no experience to take to a prospective employer when applying for a job.
But there’s no reason why a school leaver can’t learn all that on the job driving a 7.5 tonner at a 7.5 tonner type wage just like I did at 18 while at the same time doing their LGV training.
There’s one big reason why they can’t; they won’t have the relevant licence. Or the DCPC until they’ve done their LGV training.
By and large, apprenticeships have always paid lower wages, it’s been that way since Noah got his lads building the ark. The basic reason for it is that with the best will in the world, apprentices are not as productive as fully trained employees so why should they be paid the same wage?
One poster mentioned stacking tiles on a pallet. There’s more to it than just stacking it right. It gets a mind used to doing boring repetitive tasks to a standard within a given time frame, something that stands everybody in good stead and something they don’t teach at school. No different in fact to square-bashing in the services; it teaches discipline, something I think we can all agree is beneficial to any young 'un.
Exactly what law says that a driver can’t have a 7.5 tonner licence at 18 and be actually ‘driving’ 7.5 tonners at ‘that age’ while ‘also’ training for the LGV ‘at that age’.
As for doing boring repetitive tasks in an inside environment that 's for those who can handle and are cut out to be production line workers etc etc not drivers.
Carryfast:
But there’s no reason why a school leaver can’t learn all that on the job driving a 7.5 tonner at a 7.5 tonner type wage just like I did at 18 while at the same time doing their LGV training.
Seriously? A 20ft long 7.5 tonner with a 3 tonne load consisting of half a dozen pallets on is no way comparable to a 53ft long artic with 27 tonnes of whatever on. I’ve carried steel plates heavier than a fully freighted 7.5 toner.
7.5t work is almost exclusively local multi drop variety, no different than van work.
Carryfast:
Exactly what law says that a driver can’t have a 7.5 tonner licence at 18 and be actually ‘driving’ 7.5 tonners at ‘that age’ while ‘also’ training for the LGV ‘at that age’.
An 18 year old can hold a Class 1 license and drive them commercially. Been that way for a few years now. Please do keep up.
If you read various post on this Forum, you will find many so called “HGV drivers” moan about the fact that, there is no drivers mate anymore that could learn the job.
No young lads that start at the bottom and be experienced by the time they are let loose in the real world with a 44 ton artic.
There are many time people coming on this forum with questions, that shows that they have a license, but no clue whatsoever.
People moan on here that young people (from any ■■■) cannot come into the industry, because they don’t have the initial outlay for the DCPC and the HGV1 license
When I started driving 34 years ago, you was first a drivers mate, a labourer in the yard, and a wash boy, slowly you learned the tricks of the trade, they took you to different customers, they showed how it was done properly.
I think anybody of that time (except Carryfast who was immediately Top banana …on a council van) was trained in a proper way.
The apprenticeship brings that back, and I am happy to see, that the industry which is the hardest hit in the recession, is willing to stick their neck out and start people.
I laugh about the comments here that companies make money and have cheap labour from that.
How much time do you think it takes for a company to comply with the rules, follow the guidelines for apprenticeship, and train somebody to a good standard?
And yes the kids get paid peanuts, but when they come in they are not even worth the coffee they drink, and some are hard work.
But if the industry manage to set a new knowledgeable generation of Transport People on the road, than they have achieved their goal.
For apprentices, it doesn’t mean that they are all going to be HGV drivers, they could decide to do something else, planner, warehouse operative, forklift driver, Transport Manager, or even Logistics Engineer.
I think it was about time that the Transport Industry started this and built from the bottom upwards for a better industry.
Carryfast:
Exactly what law says that a driver can’t have a 7.5 tonner licence at 18 and be actually ‘driving’ 7.5 tonners at ‘that age’ while ‘also’ training for the LGV ‘at that age’.
As for doing boring repetitive tasks in an inside environment that 's for those who can handle and are cut out to be production line workers etc etc not drivers.
The actual environment’s immaterial; I’d go as far as to say that doing a certain amount of crap inside work is a pre-requisite to starting a driving career, if only to remind the trainee of what lies ahead should he fail to make the grade as a driver. And of course to remind trainees of the clause in most contracts of employment regarding their agreement to cover other kinds of work as the need arises.
One of the good things about a formal apprenticeship is that it gives the employer a chance to find out what a trainee is naturally good at, and what he needs help with in order for him to fulfil all aspects of his job. Office experience is useful too, again if only to give youngsters an insight and understanding as to how it works so as to avoid the worse aspects of the “them and us” culture which still prevail.
Thing is, you can’t teach experience. Many of us know exactly what it’s like to be “dropped in at the deep end” and if we’re all honest, those of us who are still doing this job are there because we were good enough to deal with that situation, and also we were lucky enough to get away with it. Look at it this way; would you prefer your lad to be trained properly and have some sort of recognised qualification when he’s finished, or would you rather he just got thrown the keys and told to get on with it? I know which i’d prefer.
Also agree 100% with Caledoniandream’s post. Sums it up perfectly.
albion1971:
My advice to any young lads would be stick in at school,
get some decent qualifications and go for a job with decent prospects.
Much as I hate to agree with Albion he is right on this one. Work hard, get some qualifications and find a proper career rather than spend the next 40 years piloting a tin box around the country and kipping in ■■■■-stinking laybys and service stations.
There is a particularly disreputable, self-styled ‘logistics provider’ which has a contract with a franchised retail chain that a couple of years ago was ‘recruiting’ apprentice driver’s mates, with no intentions other than to take advantage of them for £2.50 per hour, or whatever the wage was at the time.
caledoniandream:
If you read various post on this Forum, you will find many so called “HGV drivers” moan about the fact that, there is no drivers mate anymore that could learn the job.
No young lads that start at the bottom and be experienced by the time they are let loose in the real world with a 44 ton artic.
There are many time people coming on this forum with questions, that shows that they have a license, but no clue whatsoever.
People moan on here that young people (from any ■■■) cannot come into the industry, because they don’t have the initial outlay for the DCPC and the HGV1 license
When I started driving 34 years ago, you was first a drivers mate, a labourer in the yard, and a wash boy, slowly you learned the tricks of the trade, they took you to different customers, they showed how it was done properly.
I think anybody of that time (except Carryfast who was immediately Top banana …on a council van) was trained in a proper way.
The apprenticeship brings that back, and I am happy to see, that the industry which is the hardest hit in the recession, is willing to stick their neck out and start people.
I laugh about the comments here that companies make money and have cheap labour from that.
How much time do you think it takes for a company to comply with the rules, follow the guidelines for apprenticeship, and train somebody to a good standard?
And yes the kids get paid peanuts, but when they come in they are not even worth the coffee they drink, and some are hard work.
But if the industry manage to set a new knowledgeable generation of Transport People on the road, than they have achieved their goal.
For apprentices, it doesn’t mean that they are all going to be HGV drivers, they could decide to do something else, planner, warehouse operative, forklift driver, Transport Manager, or even Logistics Engineer.
I think it was about time that the Transport Industry started this and built from the bottom upwards for a better industry.
Carryfast:
But there’s no reason why a school leaver can’t learn all that on the job driving a 7.5 tonner at a 7.5 tonner type wage just like I did at 18 while at the same time doing their LGV training.
Seriously? A 20ft long 7.5 tonner with a 3 tonne load consisting of half a dozen pallets on is no way comparable to a 53ft long artic with 27 tonnes of whatever on. I’ve carried steel plates heavier than a fully freighted 7.5 toner.
7.5t work is almost exclusively local multi drop variety, no different than van work.
A 7.5 tonner flat/drop side type job requires the basics of using ropes/chains/straps just the same as an artic.The difference with the artic just being there’s more load security required.At least that’s how I found it moving from driving a 7.5 dropside on industrial general haulage when moving on to a 16 tonner and then artic flats and tilts doing general haulage.In many cases driving a 7.5 tonner for a plant hire company for example would probably teach someone more in that regard than a ‘logistics apprenticeship’ with a supermarket distribution type firm.
Carryfast:
Exactly what law says that a driver can’t have a 7.5 tonner licence at 18 and be actually ‘driving’ 7.5 tonners at ‘that age’ while ‘also’ training for the LGV ‘at that age’.
An 18 year old can hold a Class 1 license and drive them commercially. Been that way for a few years now. Please do keep up.
In which case even more reason to insists that any so called ‘apprenticeship as a driver’ involves LGV training and work from that age on.Not being lumbered with cheap labour office or warehouse work based on the carrot of ‘driver training and work’ at ‘some’ point in the ‘future’.
lolipop:
Dont you just love the negative on some of these postings. Theres far more to the Transport Industry than sitting on your backside moaning about Road Haulage pay rates and traffic hold ups on the M6 or greasy food at the Red Lion cafe or being stuck at an RDC somewhere in the back of beyond without grub.
If somebody has the initiative to take on an Apprentice, whose to say that he or she is not going to be taught anything, instead of being labelled as somebody working on the cheap.
Start at the bottom and work up
initiative haha! i’m sure companies are offering apprenticeships out of the goodness of their hearts and to help youth unemployment. I doubt very much companies are interested in the cheap slave labour or the various government cash incentives on offer
Companies only have to pay the salary of the apprentices (min wage is £2.68 p/h) and all training is paid for by the government.
Your right, it is a load of corporate BS to give them a good sense of wellbeing, but there are some folk out there who want to get into the industry but age and money is against them, here they have an opportunity to gain qualifications whilst working, so everyones a winner.
We all have to start somewhere, why mock it?
The issue isn’t that of getting young people into the industry early it’s the question of the wage rate while they’re training.
Is that not the same within any training scheme in any trade?
lolipop:
Dont you just love the negative on some of these postings. Theres far more to the Transport Industry than sitting on your backside moaning about Road Haulage pay rates and traffic hold ups on the M6 or greasy food at the Red Lion cafe or being stuck at an RDC somewhere in the back of beyond without grub.
If somebody has the initiative to take on an Apprentice, whose to say that he or she is not going to be taught anything, instead of being labelled as somebody working on the cheap.
Start at the bottom and work up
initiative haha! i’m sure companies are offering apprenticeships out of the goodness of their hearts and to help youth unemployment. I doubt very much companies are interested in the cheap slave labour or the various government cash incentives on offer
Companies only have to pay the salary of the apprentices (min wage is £2.68 p/h) and all training is paid for by the government.
Your right, it is a load of corporate BS to give them a good sense of wellbeing, but there are some folk out there who want to get into the industry but age and money is against them, here they have an opportunity to gain qualifications whilst working, so everyones a winner.
We all have to start somewhere, why mock it?
The issue isn’t that of getting young people into the industry early it’s the question of the wage rate while they’re training.
Is that not the same within any training scheme in any trade?
Yes but with any other trade you learn the job from day one of the apprentiship,this would not be possible doing a road transport apprentiship as @ 17 you can’t learn to drive a HGV.
So you’d spend a year or two earning £50 or so a week being a general dogsbody,with the promise that in 2 years they may train you as a hgv driver IF they need drivers at the time and IF the companies insurance would even cover A)someone under 25 and B)a newly passed driver.
In a normal apprentice like say plumber you spend the time of your apprentiship learning how to be a plumber,this is not possible to do as a apprentice HGV driver.
lolipop:
Dont you just love the negative on some of these postings. Theres far more to the Transport Industry than sitting on your backside moaning about Road Haulage pay rates and traffic hold ups on the M6 or greasy food at the Red Lion cafe or being stuck at an RDC somewhere in the back of beyond without grub.
If somebody has the initiative to take on an Apprentice, whose to say that he or she is not going to be taught anything, instead of being labelled as somebody working on the cheap.
Start at the bottom and work up
initiative haha! i’m sure companies are offering apprenticeships out of the goodness of their hearts and to help youth unemployment. I doubt very much companies are interested in the cheap slave labour or the various government cash incentives on offer
Companies only have to pay the salary of the apprentices (min wage is £2.68 p/h) and all training is paid for by the government.
Your right, it is a load of corporate BS to give them a good sense of wellbeing, but there are some folk out there who want to get into the industry but age and money is against them, here they have an opportunity to gain qualifications whilst working, so everyones a winner.
We all have to start somewhere, why mock it?
The issue isn’t that of getting young people into the industry early it’s the question of the wage rate while they’re training.
Is that not the same within any training scheme in any trade?
Yes but with any other trade you learn the job from day one of the apprentiship,this would not be possible doing a road transport apprentiship as @ 17 you can’t learn to drive a HGV.
So you’d spend a year or two earning £50 or so a week being a general dogsbody,with the promise that in 2 years they may train you as a hgv driver IF they need drivers at the time and IF the companies insurance would even cover A)someone under 25 and B)a newly passed driver.
In a normal apprentice like say plumber you spend the time of your apprentiship learning how to be a plumber,this is not possible to do as a apprentice HGV driver.
What do you not think an apprentice in any other trade is a dogsbody for the first two years off there apprenticeship.
I spent 18 months as an apprentice plasterer,during this time I learned how to mix plaster correctly,plaster walls and ceilings,fix plaster boards with adhesive or screws and make it all level…ect ect
My point is if someone wants to become a lorry driver and seeing as though being a lorry driver involves mainly driving a lorry how would serving 2 years in a office or in a warehouse accelerate the learning process over waiting until getting to the required age and just taking the HGV course over a weeks period.
Unless those offering these “road transport appretiships” would be looking at using the apprentice as a yard shunter ect but it doesn’t state that in the original post.
ckm1981:
Yes but with any other trade you learn the job from day one of the apprentiship,this would not be possible doing a road transport apprentiship as @ 17 you can’t learn to drive a HGV.
So you’d spend a year or two earning £50 or so a week being a general dogsbody,with the promise that in 2 years they may train you as a hgv driver IF they need drivers at the time and IF the companies insurance would even cover A)someone under 25 and B)a newly passed driver.
In a normal apprentice like say plumber you spend the time of your apprentiship learning how to be a plumber,this is not possible to do as a apprentice HGV driver.
Of course it is possible. As has been said before on this thread, the training is about road transport not just being an LGV driver.You’d still be learning the trade from day one, but different aspects of it which the “direct entrant” rarely gets to see or experience, the result being a better informed and well-rounded trainee who can understand and appreciate all aspects of the job, not just how to turn a steering wheel. One who has been taught the legal side of things correctly and not just picked it up as he’s gone along, and at the right age too because it goes without saying that learning becomes more difficult the older you get. In other words, a properly trained PROFESSIONAL driver, something the industry has been desperately short of for years.
When I was a TM back in the 1990’s, I had to recruit a couple of extra class 1 drivers. Amongst the applicants were two ex-Currys men who both had a long list of safe driving awards and training qualifications in their CV’s. Needless to say those two guys went straight onto my shortlist without so much as a second thought, and eventually both ended up working for my company, justifying my selection by being model employees. I venture to suggest that a certified apprenticeship would give today’s young drivers a similar advantage over their peers. We all know good tradesmen but nowadays it’s the ones with the right papers who not only get the work but command better money for doing so.
ckm1981:
Yes but with any other trade you learn the job from day one of the apprentiship,this would not be possible doing a road transport apprentiship as @ 17 you can’t learn to drive a HGV.
So you’d spend a year or two earning £50 or so a week being a general dogsbody,with the promise that in 2 years they may train you as a hgv driver IF they need drivers at the time and IF the companies insurance would even cover A)someone under 25 and B)a newly passed driver.
In a normal apprentice like say plumber you spend the time of your apprentiship learning how to be a plumber,this is not possible to do as a apprentice HGV driver.
Of course it is possible. As has been said before on this thread, the training is about road transport not just being an LGV driver.You’d still be learning the trade from day one, but different aspects of it which the “direct entrant” rarely gets to see or experience, the result being a better informed and well-rounded trainee who can understand and appreciate all aspects of the job, not just how to turn a steering wheel. One who has been taught the legal side of things correctly and not just picked it up as he’s gone along, and at the right age too because it goes without saying that learning becomes more difficult the older you get. In other words, a properly trained PROFESSIONAL driver, something the industry has been desperately short of for years.
When I was a TM back in the 1990’s, I had to recruit a couple of extra class 1 drivers. Amongst the applicants were two ex-Currys men who both had a long list of safe driving awards and training qualifications in their CV’s. Needless to say those two guys went straight onto my shortlist without so much as a second thought, and eventually both ended up working for my company, justifying my selection by being model employees. I venture to suggest that a certified apprenticeship would give today’s young drivers a similar advantage over their peers. We all know good tradesmen but nowadays it’s the ones with the right papers who not only get the work but command better money for doing so.
Ain’t that what the CPC is for so new drivers can learn the above,dragging it over 2 years seems exaggerated imo.
ckm1981:
Ain’t that what the CPC is for so new drivers can learn the above,dragging it over 2 years seems exaggerated imo.
You can’t teach experience in 35 hours of classroom work. One of the advantages of apprenticeships is that they allow trainees to get a feel for every aspect of the job not just how to use a digicard.
Look at how the army does it. It’s a safe bet that a greater proportion of today’s soldiers who have risen through the ranks did so by starting as juniors. That does not mean that adult entrants are in any way inferior, just that the advantage of those two extra years of learning the trade pay handsome dividends once you start rising up the promotion ladder. Would you want your son to finish his career as an officer or a corporal?
lolipop:
Dont you just love the negative on some of these postings. Theres far more to the Transport Industry than sitting on your backside moaning about Road Haulage pay rates and traffic hold ups on the M6 or greasy food at the Red Lion cafe or being stuck at an RDC somewhere in the back of beyond without grub.
If somebody has the initiative to take on an Apprentice, whose to say that he or she is not going to be taught anything, instead of being labelled as somebody working on the cheap.
Start at the bottom and work up
initiative haha! i’m sure companies are offering apprenticeships out of the goodness of their hearts and to help youth unemployment. I doubt very much companies are interested in the cheap slave labour or the various government cash incentives on offer
Companies only have to pay the salary of the apprentices (min wage is £2.68 p/h) and all training is paid for by the government.
Your right, it is a load of corporate BS to give them a good sense of wellbeing, but there are some folk out there who want to get into the industry but age and money is against them, here they have an opportunity to gain qualifications whilst working, so everyones a winner.
We all have to start somewhere, why mock it?
The issue isn’t that of getting young people into the industry early it’s the question of the wage rate while they’re training.
Is that not the same within any training scheme in any trade?
Yes but with any other trade you learn the job from day one of the apprentiship,this would not be possible doing a road transport apprentiship as @ 17 you can’t learn to drive a HGV.
So you’d spend a year or two earning £50 or so a week being a general dogsbody,with the promise that in 2 years they may train you as a hgv driver IF they need drivers at the time and IF the companies insurance would even cover A)someone under 25 and B)a newly passed driver.
In a normal apprentice like say plumber you spend the time of your apprentiship learning how to be a plumber,this is not possible to do as a apprentice HGV driver.
What do you not think an apprentice in any other trade is a dogsbody for the first two years off there apprenticeship.
If they are then that’s just more confirmation that it’s a dodgy cheap labour scam.Which in this case would be using the carrot of LGV training and work in ‘the future’ based on ifs buts and maybes to fill the types of vacancies doing inside type jobs that defeats the object of being a driver.Anyone who takes on a job with compromised wages for training as a ‘driver’ under those conditions is a mug.Just as they would be in the case of any other trade.
In this case if the job in question doesn’t include a guaranteed offer of LGV training and then reasonably paid work after getting a licence from the age of 18 then walk away.
he is right on this one. Work hard, get some qualifications and find a proper career rather than spend the next 40 years piloting a tin box around the country and kipping in ■■■■-stinking laybys and service stations.