Reversing without banksman = possible sacked

[rob_k]

theonlybigman:
I was crew trainer at DHL and an official ROSPA approved banksman trainer. Anyone can be trained to be a banksman, whether they drive or not. It is all about understanding the area around you using the simple thought process of T.H.I.N.K.

T = Talk to the driver
H = Has the driver been here before?
I = Indentiffy possible problems
N = Need to concentrate
K = Keep your eyes open

If you have a competent banksman, ie someone who has been signed off by an approved trainer then that is the way forward. But remember in the eyes of the law, the driver is still responsible. If you reversed using a banksman nad run a pushchair over and killed the baby, you would be in court, yes you would more than likely be cleared because you do did everything resonably practicable, and used everything available to stop this kind of incident happening. If you didnt use the banksman, then the story would be very different.

I feel the company is looking out for you and im sure they have only done this to improve their accident rate, and raise their health and safety standard, but it has had a knock on effect that you will reep the rewards of having hopefully zero reversing accidents, and zero potential fatalaties. Reversing accidents when in a residential street are far too often “human” related, which no firm wants you to be part of.

I’ve never read so much BS in a long time. What’s worse is that you actually believe it.

So called ‘ROSPA approved banksmen’ are worse than useless. On 2 sites I used to deliver to they wouldn’t let you reverse without one and all they do is wave their arms about in a completely meaningless fashion and try to direct you by standing in your blind spot. So instead of them being helpful they actually hinder you more than if you were reversing on your own because you have to stop and get out to make sure that they’re still alive after wandering off into your blind spot.

There’s no excuse to run anyone over when reversing in a bin truck anyway as they’re all fitted with rear cameras. Any driver that seriously injures or kills someone when reversing one should be sent to one of the Queen’s hotels for a lengthy period. There’s no excuse.

[theonlybigman]

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think you need to have a wider outlook on this, rather than having the narrow minded vision of “I’m a driver and I don’t need anyone to see me back”. I have seen the aftermarth of someone who was crushed because a driver couldn’t be bothered to use a banksman and it wasn’t pretty!

If you are happy to use a bnaksman without even asking him what he is going to do to stop you, and/or allowing him to step in your blind spot and you keep reversing, then I feel you need to go on one of these so called “useless” courses. Because if you did you would realise that the act of reversing is very dangerous, usually in confined spaces with pedestrians around you. Communication is the key and talking to the banksman before conducting the manouvere is key. Im sure you went headlong into those two firms, with the attitude of “I don’t need you, you are a waste behind me” reversed too fast and the banksman never even had a chance to keep in your field of vision.

If you are not up to admitting that and feel I am taking rubbish then that is your opinion as I said earlier, but I believe in the course because I know it works and if everyone operated this course to the letter there would be no reversing accidents period!

[mrhappy]

[cliffton_27]

MrHappy:
0

[the_sarge]

MrHappy:
0

^^^^+1

[scarab]

I occasionally do some work for a company who’s policy is that while reversing all drivers must have a banksman.

Saved my bacon on one occasion. Was reversing into a customers yard and the obligatory banksman came out to do his bit. I had to do a tight reverse alongside the building to get the back doors into a far corner onto a bay.

There were some overhanging spotlights on the side of the building and I couldn’t see them as I reversed round a corner, several times I asked the “banksman” if I was clear of them, till we hear a crunch noise.

Turns out the rear corner wasn’t clear at all.

Anyway in the following investigation it turns out they had tried to save money by not training the banksman so he didn’t know what he was doing, and didn’t take it seriously.
He got the sack when really, if it were any other place, it would have been my fault.

Certainly learnt from that never to just blindly trust someone to do what they say they are doing, when its your job to be looking after the vehicle and where its going.

[rob_k]

theonlybigman:
You are entitled to your opinion, but I think you need to have a wider outlook on this, rather than having the narrow minded vision of “I’m a driver and I don’t need anyone to see me back”. I have seen the aftermarth of someone who was crushed because a driver couldn’t be bothered to use a banksman and it wasn’t pretty!

If you are happy to use a bnaksman without even asking him what he is going to do to stop you, and/or allowing him to step in your blind spot and you keep reversing, then I feel you need to go on one of these so called “useless” courses. Because if you did you would realise that the act of reversing is very dangerous, usually in confined spaces with pedestrians around you. Communication is the key and talking to the banksman before conducting the manouvere is key. Im sure you went headlong into those two firms, with the attitude of “I don’t need you, you are a waste behind me” reversed too fast and the banksman never even had a chance to keep in your field of vision.

That just shows how little you know then. I’ll give anyone a chance once, but ■■■■ it up and well, you’re gonna hear about it. First time it was a good side reverse and the banksman was stood about half way along my trailer on the same side waving me back. What good is that exactly? I already have my head out of the window and can see every inch of the vehicle from front to back. The next time (different site) it was a blind side and the banksman stood at the rear of the trailer on the blind side. What good is that? Can’t even see him. For him to have been any use he would’ve needed to stand either in front of the cab on the blind side and watched the blind side rear corner of the trailer from there and guided me, OR stood at a right angle on the good side from the offside corner of the trailer and in my line of sight in the offside mirror. Where he was actually stood meant I had to actually stop and get out to make sure he was still there as we was completely hidden from view.

On the 3rd occasion it was a delivery to a different part of the site which involved a good side reverse through a tight gateway. Banksman is stood there again on my good side, whilst I am watching the nearside front corner of the trailer getting closer to the gate. He sees the issue and comes round the front to watch me. He’s waving his arms for me to carry on as I’m clear but it’s not looking like that in the n/s mirror. I shout at him “are you sure” and he says “yes, you’re alright, it’ll be close but you’ll clear it”. I was 99% sure he was talking BS but he was adamant I’d clear it so I gingerly carried on. bump “STOP!” he screams, shaking his head and rolling his eyes. “YOU’VE JUST HIT IT!”. Needless to say that was the last time that a banksman ever “helps” me. ■■■■■■■ the lot of them. Perhaps if they were artic drivers themselves (like a lot of the banksmen on abnormal load stuff are) then they’d know where to stand and what specific stuff to watch out for, rather than being trained by some do-gooding muppets from ROSPA who don’t know one end of a truck from the other.

If you are not up to admitting that and feel I am taking rubbish then that is your opinion as I said earlier, but I believe in the course because I know it works and if everyone operated this course to the letter there would be no reversing accidents period!

Wow. Just… WOW.

[theonlybigman]

I’m glad you could prove my point that communication is key. At no point in that discription did you say that at first you stopped and talked to the banksman, agreed where he would stand and how you were going to conduct your manouvere. I bet you just shouted from your cab window and got the poor guy distressed and probably dis-interested with you completing your manouvere.

If you thought you were going to hit something and wern’t sure then why did you carry on■■? Why did you not get out and have a look yourself■■? “If there is doubt, then there is no doubt”, get out agree or disagree with banksman. Reversing is an art, im sure you are a good driver, im sure you are pleased with the level of skill the years behind the wheel have given you, but safety is important, firms constantly try to help the drivers with new training schemes, which help the drivers to remove blame from them when something goes wrong, it helps the firms too having this happen. The added bonus is that you become a better, more sensible, aware and hopefully accident free driver.

I dont think we will agree on this matter so I guess we must agree to disagree. The banksman rules that firms apply are not going away though, it helps with their safe systems of work, in reducing the risk assessments therefore making them a safer practicing company, and that is the bottom line.

[bringbakbiffa]

we have to use banksman or as our firm calls them “reversing assistants” It helps if you have the same crew mine changes everyday at the moment so you cant build a bit of team work up my colleagues who do have a regular crew have it sussed as they know how each other operates I think its a good idea though as you cant rule out someone running from behind a parked car or agressive drivers and when you are in a busy town 3 or even 4 sets of eyes are better than 1

[mrhappy]

I’m in agreement with Rob here. In my experience, most banksmen are about as much good as an inflatable dartboard. The only ones that are any good are artic drivers. I’ve lost count of the times i’ve been told, “Our banksman will see you back,” only to find that he’s standing in the only place you can’t see him. I’m sure there are plenty of courses and risk assessments and safe working practices and method statements and more H+S ■■■■■ that you can quote until our ears are bleeding, but the “Bottom line” as you say is that, yes it can be dangerous, yes people can be injured or killed, but there is no substitute for common sense.

IMHO the whole Health & Safety culture we have now has been great for some people, its created a lot of job opportunities for people like yourself, but the trouble is, as Rob pointed out, you do so much of the training that you actually start to believe the crap yourself. Just for once, why can’t one of you just ■■■■■■■ admit it and say, “Yeah its great, i’ve made a good living out of this,” rather than keep on trying to convince others what an important job you do, just so that they think, “You know what, you’re right, we’d better keep paying you to do this job.”

Just a thought

[rob_k]

theonlybigman:
I’m glad you could prove my point that communication is key. At no point in that discription did you say that at first you stopped and talked to the banksman, agreed where he would stand and how you were going to conduct your manouvere. I bet you just shouted from your cab window and got the poor guy distressed and probably dis-interested with you completing your manouvere

Quit the dramatics please. You don’t even get chance to speak to them. They’re waving their arms about “guiding” you well in advance. If you speak to them to tell them what they need to do they just get the hump because they feel insulted you’re telling them how to do their job.

If you thought you were going to hit something and wern’t sure then why did you carry on■■? Why did you not get out and have a look yourself■■? “If there is doubt, then there is no doubt”, get out agree or disagree with banksman.

Again, let’s get real here. When some guy is stood in the direct line of sight between your vehicle and the object then they have a better view than you do on whether you’re going to hit it or not. Past experience tells you when something is close but when you call out to them “are you absolutely sure that I’m going to clear it?” and then assure you and reassure you that you’re good to go, any normal person would take their word seeing as they’re the ones that can actually see and then set off very gently. The world is full of stupid people but someone getting that wrong is a whole new level of stupid. Personally I wanted to get out and check for myself but the combination of his assurances coupled with not wanting to insult the guy made me go along with it and I think for all your self-righteous H&S waffle you would’ve done the same faced with the exact same situation, as would the majority of other drivers.

Reversing is an art, im sure you are a good driver, im sure you are pleased with the level of skill the years behind the wheel have given you

Please quit the patronising. It doesn’t suit you and it doesn’t work on me.

but safety is important, firms constantly try to help the drivers with new training schemes, which help the drivers to remove blame from them when something goes wrong, it helps the firms too having this happen. The added bonus is that you become a better, more sensible, aware and hopefully accident free driver.

This is an adult orientated forum full of (mainly) very experienced truck drivers. It is not a forum for 2 yr olds so please stop speaking to people like they’re one. You come across as another cotton wool wrapping Labourite where everyone must be “protected” from everything. Accidents do not happen in your world; someone is “to blame”.

I dont think we will agree on this matter so I guess we must agree to disagree.

That is a very good suggestion.

The banksman rules that firms apply are not going away though, it helps with their safe systems of work, in reducing the risk assessments therefore making them a safer practicing company, and that is the bottom line.

No, all it achieves is taking drivers’ concentration away from the task in hand which will result in more accidents occuring, not a reduction.

[carryfast]

Rob K:

theonlybigman:
You are entitled to your opinion, but I think you need to have a wider outlook on this, rather than having the narrow minded vision of “I’m a driver and I don’t need anyone to see me back”. I have seen the aftermarth of someone who was crushed because a driver couldn’t be bothered to use a banksman and it wasn’t pretty!

If you are happy to use a bnaksman without even asking him what he is going to do to stop you, and/or allowing him to step in your blind spot and you keep reversing, then I feel you need to go on one of these so called “useless” courses. Because if you did you would realise that the act of reversing is very dangerous, usually in confined spaces with pedestrians around you. Communication is the key and talking to the banksman before conducting the manouvere is key. Im sure you went headlong into those two firms, with the attitude of “I don’t need you, you are a waste behind me” reversed too fast and the banksman never even had a chance to keep in your field of vision.

I’ll give anyone a chance once

On the 3rd occasion it was a delivery to a different part of the site which involved a good side reverse through a tight gateway. Banksman is stood there again on my good side, whilst I am watching the nearside front corner of the trailer getting closer to the gate. He sees the issue and comes round the front to watch me. He’s waving his arms for me to carry on as I’m clear but it’s not looking like that in the n/s mirror. I shout at him “are you sure” and he says “yes, you’re alright, it’ll be close but you’ll clear it”. I was 99% sure he was talking BS but he was adamant I’d clear it so I gingerly carried on. bump “STOP!” he screams, shaking his head and rolling his eyes. “YOU’VE JUST HIT IT!”. Needless to say that was the last time that a banksman ever “helps” me. [zb] the lot of them.

[rob_k]

MrHappy:
I’m in agreement with Rob here. In my experience, most banksmen are about as much good as an inflatable dartboard. The only ones that are any good are artic drivers. I’ve lost count of the times i’ve been told, “Our banksman will see you back,” only to find that he’s standing in the only place you can’t see him. I’m sure there are plenty of courses and risk assessments and safe working practices and method statements and more H+S [zb] that you can quote until our ears are bleeding, but the “Bottom line” as you say is that, yes it can be dangerous, yes people can be injured or killed, but there is no substitute for common sense.

IMHO the whole Health & Safety culture we have now has been great for some people, its created a lot of job opportunities for people like yourself, but the trouble is, as Rob pointed out, you do so much of the training that you actually start to believe the crap yourself. Just for once, why can’t one of you just [zb] admit it and say, “Yeah its great, i’ve made a good living out of this,” rather than keep on trying to convince others what an important job you do, just so that they think, “You know what, you’re right, we’d better keep paying you to do this job.”

Just a thought

+1

[carryfast]

Rob K:

theonlybigman:
I’m glad you could prove my point that communication is key. At no point in that discription did you say that at first you stopped and talked to the banksman, agreed where he would stand and how you were going to conduct your manouvere. I bet you just shouted from your cab window and got the poor guy distressed and probably dis-interested with you completing your manouvere

Quit the dramatics please. You don’t even get chance to speak to them. They’re waving their arms about “guiding” you well in advance. If you speak to them to tell them what they need to do they just get the hump because they feel insulted you’re telling them how to do their job.

If you thought you were going to hit something and wern’t sure then why did you carry on■■? Why did you not get out and have a look yourself■■? “If there is doubt, then there is no doubt”, get out agree or disagree with banksman.

Again, let’s get real here. When some guy is stood in the direct line of sight between your vehicle and the object then they have a better view that you do on whether you’re going to hit it or not. Past experience tells you when something is close but when call out to them “are you absolutely sure that I’m going to clear it” and then assure you and reassure you that you’re good to go, any normal person would take their word seeing as they’re the ones that can actually see and then set off very gently. The world is full of stupid people but someone getting that wrong is a whole new level of stupid. Personally I wanted to get out and check for myself but the combination of his assurances coupled with not wanting to insult the guy made me go along with it and I think for all your self-righteous H&S waffle you would’ve done the same faced with the exact same situation, as would the majority of other drivers.

Reversing is an art, im sure you are a good driver, im sure you are pleased with the level of skill the years behind the wheel have given you

Please quit the patronising. It doesn’t suit you and it doesn’t work on me.

but safety is important, firms constantly try to help the drivers with new training schemes, which help the drivers to remove blame from them when something goes wrong, it helps the firms too having this happen. The added bonus is that you become a better, more sensible, aware and hopefully accident free driver.

This is an adult orientated forum full of (mainly) very experienced truck drivers. It is not a forum for 2 yr olds so please stop speaking to people like they’re one. You come across as another cotton wool wrapping Labourite where everyone must be “protected” from everything. Accidents do not happen in your world; someone is “to blame”.

I dont think we will agree on this matter so I guess we must agree to disagree.

That is a very good suggestion.

The banksman rules that firms apply are not going away though, it helps with their safe systems of work, in reducing the risk assessments therefore making them a safer practicing company, and that is the bottom line.

No, all it achieves is taking drivers’ concentration away from the task in hand which will result in more accidents occuring, not a reduction.

Do wagon and drags also fit into this discussion or are they exempt.

[madbaz]

We’ve had to sign a bit of paper that we must use a banksman on our premises and at customers, problem is the customers don’t have banksmen (trained or otherwise) and our so called banksman isn’t even at work at our start/finish times. All it is, is an arse covering exercise, when we suggested we’d need a drivers mate/banksman in the cab, management kinda went quiet. I’ve got beepers and lights if some dozy [zb] can’t see or hear me, or more than likely can’t be arsed waiting for me to complete a manouver then it’s their lookout, I won’t lose any sleep should an incident occur, but I’ll be ■■■■■■ at the amount of paperwork it’ll generate.

[theonlybigman]

but safety is important, firms constantly try to help the drivers with new training schemes, which help the drivers to remove blame from them when something goes wrong, it helps the firms too having this happen. The added bonus is that you become a better, more sensible, aware and hopefully accident free driver.

This is an adult orientated forum full of (mainly) very experienced truck drivers. It is not a forum for 2 yr olds so please stop speaking to people like they’re one. You come across as another cotton wool wrapping Labourite where everyone must be “protected” from everything. Accidents do not happen in your world; someone is “to blame”.

In my experience accidents happen through lack of skill, or rushing. Some, very few accidents are genuine accidents, reversing accidents shouldn’t happen with a banksman. Even you must agree with me on that, as long as you have agreed on commands etc? If something does go wrong its a misjudgment not an accident.

I dont think we will agree on this matter so I guess we must agree to disagree.

That is a very good suggestion.

WOW, you agree with me on something!

The banksman rules that firms apply are not going away though, it helps with their safe systems of work, in reducing the risk assessments therefore making them a safer practicing company, and that is the bottom line.

No, all it achieves is taking drivers’ concentration away from the task in hand which will result in more accidents occuring, not a reduction.

[/quote]
A driver who listens and takes in the training will have the risks and consequences on the front of his mind, how does this take his concentration away from the task in hand?

As a driver I am confident in my reversing, I wouldn’t turn the help of a banksman down though, as someone has already said 3 or 4 pairs of eyes are better than one. I understand though that if I hit something it is still my fault, so I want to reduce the risk of hitting something, how can that be bad? I do accept that firms chuck training at drivers that can be pointless eg SAFED to Central London multidrop drivers, I just feel that the banksman training is of a benefit to everyone. I by no way shape or form wish to be patronising to anyone, for me it works, I can see why the guys firm want him to have a banksman, if you have had bad experience with banksman, then im sure this has why you have this view.

[waynedl]

theonlybigman:
You are entitled to your opinion, but I think you need to have a wider outlook on this, rather than having the narrow minded vision of “I’m a driver and I don’t need anyone to see me back”. I have seen the aftermarth of someone who was STUPID ENOUGH TO GO BEHIND A REVERSING VEHICLE, AND, AS A RESULT, WAScrushed, DISTRESSING THE DRIVER AND CAUSING HIM LOTS OF PAPERWORK, because a driver WAS DOING HIS JOB couldn’t be bothered to use a banksman and it wasn’t pretty!

sorted? kinda, didn’t want to delete your ■■■■■■■■ whilst ammending it.

I don’t mind someone ‘watching me back’ and by that, someone who’ll shout STOP! at the top of their voice BEFORE I hit something. That’s helpfull.

[the_sarge]

theonlybigman:
In my experience accidents happen through lack of skill, or rushing. Some, very few accidents are genuine accidents, reversing accidents shouldn’t happen with a banksman. Even you must agree with me on that, as long as you have agreed on commands etc? If something does go wrong its a misjudgment not an accident.

So the banksman who reversed Rob into a pillar didn’t cause an accident, did he? I bet the insurance company were pleased to hear that.
It’s nice to see that some things don’t change.
“can you watch me onto the bay, mate?”
“no problem, come on…come on…come on…come on…<BANG!> WHOA!!!”

[saaamon]

theonlybigman:
I was crew trainer at DHL and an official ROSPA approved banksman trainer. Anyone can be trained to be a banksman, whether they drive or not. It is all about understanding the area around you using the simple thought process of T.H.I.N.K.

How can you be an “approved banksman” if you cant even drive a lorry, people that cant drive them have no ■■■■■■■ understanding of how they drive and the room needed to get round.

What license have you got?

[scarab]

Oh I dunno, I reckon a non driver probably could be taught to be a proper banksman. But then how is a driver supposed to differentiate?

It’s helpful having someone watch you back, but I don’t think that ever entirely relying on someone to avoid hitting something is a good idea, as many of us here seem to have experienced.