muckles:
Franglais:
So is the current system broken?
Time for proportional representation?
Would that raise the level of debate? or are we stuck with 30second sound bites?
Or is the EU question so emotive that it was and will continue to be divisive?
Is there any outcome, from here where we are , that will give us a good route out?
I blame Cameron a lot for his half-arsed idea of a referendum to gain a few votes from UKIP in order to win power and all that followed, but in truth, maybe he just bought the inevitable referendum forward.
The current system doesn’t seem to represent the people who vote, but its not just a UK problem, seems to be a problem in most countries that have had reasonably stable regimes for the last few decades. People don’t take an interest in politics, few take an active part, voting drops off and to climb the greasy pole to the top of politics needs influential friends and money, those the provide this are paid back before the voters.
The problem with trying to fix this is it will take major upheavals, probably lead to major unrest, economic collapse.
PR is used in several countries, it does benefit smaller parties in getting members into which ever version of parliament the country uses, I believe under a PR system UKIP might have got something like 13 seats in the 2015 election. As for the argument that a small party could hold the power, well that’s happened both in 2010 with the Lib Dems and now with the DUP, also under the present system its quite possible for a party to have a majority in parliament, forcing their agenda through with only around 30% of the vote.
However under the present system we have a direct representative for each of us, that is lost under PR with representatives being picked from a party list, it would also mean party rebels wouldn’t get in, those like Denis Skinner would be sidelined for somebody who toes the party line, I believe Germany uses a hybrid systems, so you vote for your direct representative and also a PR vote, meaning those with minority views get represented.
Judging by the posts on here the EU is by far the most emotive issue on this forum, its great that people are so passionate about it, and social media and the internet in general is great for airing these views, but it does seem to polarize opinion, with people staying within the own groups and selecting what they read and view on the subject, dismissing any other opinion as wrong and false.
I don’t see why “economic collapse” should happen. Collapse happens in any financial environment from entire countries down to household budgets - because one both doesn’t have enough money coming in (for whatever reason) and the household then borrows, rather than embarks on it’s own personal austerity plan, like giving up holidays, smoking, going out etc etc.
I’ve managed to get by for the past 8 years on a single, and at times “sporradic” income - because my household went without when the money wasn’t there. When it IS there, we can have a few treats again, like we have over the past summer. I don’t borrow money to buy wasting assets like cars with, nor use a credit card at all. To avoid economic collapse, the population needs to tighten it’s collective belt - but not in a nasty way as the politicians would have it - by cutting essential public services, and then wondering why people are moaning about being first skint and NOW out of work/facing redundancy as WELL.
My solution to that in households - is “Strategic Debt Default” when you lose a job without a fat payoff, as most of us losing our jobs will probably be facing these days.
Funny how even the Hard Left are not advocating “Strategic Debt Default” as a policy push-out though■■? It surprises me the same as Labour choosing a decade ago to bail out the much-hated temples of capitalism - THE BANKS - rather than letting as many fail as needed to, and then using the QE money to refund the savers who lost their shirts.
btw. UKIP with 4m votes in 2015 would have got about 82 seats with their 12.6% share of the vote. The SNP polling around 4.7% would have got about 30 seats. Instead, UKIP got NONE and the SNP surged to 56 seats.
Interestingly though, even if UKIP had got those 82 seats - the Tories 36.8% poll would have given them 239 seats - which would not been enough to put them over the line. Could a coalition have been done with Tory 239 +UKIP 82 + DUP 4 seats (they would have got under PR) … Nope. That is still a total of 325 - one seat short! …Perhaps an indy to get them one notch over the line■■?
To win a majority in a PR election - you need over 50% of the popular vote. That’s HARD when winners of outright majorities were polling mid-30’s to mid 40’s percentages…
When was the last time any party in this country got over 50% of the popular vote■■? I think the closest to come to it (with a single party’s tally) was Clement Atlee’s Labour win in 1945, polling 48.1% of the popular vote…
In any case… NO way should we ever countenence the “Alternative Vote” system in this country. Putting your choices down in order to highest and lowest preference? - That would mean for most voters here for instance… 1st LABOUR 2nd LIBDEM third TORY or for natural “Right” voters… 1st TORY 2nd LIBDEM 3rd LABOUR…
Which means… the LIBDEMS get to form every government until the next “regime change” revolution!!
No bloody thanks. I didn’t want that total turd even when I was voting Libdem in 2010!
The German Hybrid system perhaps helps Merkel to hang on, despite her poll flagging dramatically. It takes a lot to wipe out a party in Germany… However - now that AfD have gone from 0 to 94 seats in one single election - that system is going to keep them in place for YEARS to come! Anything that continues to go wrong in Germany at this time, is seen as Merkel and now Schulz’ fault, with AfD safely as “Official Opposition” - with no need to do anything at all - except wait… Oh for sure - the mainstream can engineer scandals designed to whittle away the AfD support - but it has never been as hard to get away with “Casual Career Politician Lies” - as it is NOW.
The EU project is not just dying - it is falling over and sinking into the swamp as well…
Keep an eye on Viktor Orban now. He’s got a thumping majority, and the EU are trying to push him around…
Soros might want to get a bit worried too - he is a total pariah in Hungary already!