People finally coming to their senses?

[franglais]

muckles:
Like I said I don’t doubt the statistical accuracy of the result, but it’s the headlines I take issue with and the OP’s title.
I don’t think a poll of the members of 3 unions, who (as far as I can find out) supported remain in 2016, wanting a second referendum is that much of a Bombshell or shows massive union backing, (although we also can’t assume the other Unions are against the a 2nd referendum either) however it’s the headline that is extrapolating the data over the entire union movement, and the OP who is doing for the entire country, not me?

The bit about the percentage of the sample size was just really a point of interest and not part of my argument.

Personally I think we should have a referendum on the final deal, but not another Leave or Stay, as I said before that will just be seen as vote until we get the result the establishment wanted, but a Deal or No Deal instead. This way we get the whole thing away from the infighting in the Government which is what is causing the stalemate we have at the moment and the people decide, that includes Leavers and Remainers.

Point Taken.
One survey or figure and it is seized upon if the correct “mood-music” is playing.
Being humans we can only take in so much high quality info then we get overloaded with facts and look for simple markers to guide us. Play a patriotic song, wave the flag and you`ll win more votes than a carefully crafted, statistically coherent, argument will, if the audience has been overwhelmed with facts already.

And I am not putting myself above all of that stuff. I do like to think Im above the fray, but I know Im not really. I`m not knocking the intelligence of all voters, just saying these are very complex issues, and some with vested interests are very adept at influencing voters for their own ends.

We tend to distill complex arguments into some easily understood markers and then only look at them.
(Boss wants a new truck? He looks at MPG, and makes a choice. Maybe it costs a fortune in maintenance, and has no resale value, but there we are). And of cour…
HHmmmm. I wont put my PhD dissertation on "Proxy Markers Relating To Prime Issues And Voting Choices In UK Elections" here. Partly because it doesnt exist.

[carryfast]

switchlogic:

Carryfast:
Bearing in mind that history suggests that the argument between Federalism and Secession is rarely settled peacefully.So choose your weapons Kloss,or Klaus,which ever it is.I’ll go for an FN and a .50 cal machine gun if you can get past the M777 Howitzer which I’m sure our US secessionist allies will manage to get to us somehow.

Reading this brings back images of Dads Army. I can see you and your Mum barricaded in the house, you patrolling the front garden at regular intervals in your tin hat with a cardboard cut out of a machine gun

Which part of this in a place not that far away and a time not that long ago don’t you understand.Those are real people divided between Federalism v Nationalism,in the respective support of and defeat of Tito’s all too similar Federal dream and zb Federalists as usual doing what Federalists do in refusing to recognise the right of national self determination and then,in this case,paying the price.Not exactly dad’s army is it.

youtube.com/watch?v=gLA10dtUO_I

[muckles]

Franglais:

muckles:
Like I said I don’t doubt the statistical accuracy of the result, but it’s the headlines I take issue with and the OP’s title.
I don’t think a poll of the members of 3 unions, who (as far as I can find out) supported remain in 2016, wanting a second referendum is that much of a Bombshell or shows massive union backing, (although we also can’t assume the other Unions are against the a 2nd referendum either) however it’s the headline that is extrapolating the data over the entire union movement, and the OP who is doing for the entire country, not me?

The bit about the percentage of the sample size was just really a point of interest and not part of my argument.

Personally I think we should have a referendum on the final deal, but not another Leave or Stay, as I said before that will just be seen as vote until we get the result the establishment wanted, but a Deal or No Deal instead. This way we get the whole thing away from the infighting in the Government which is what is causing the stalemate we have at the moment and the people decide, that includes Leavers and Remainers.

Point Taken.
One survey or figure and it is seized upon if the correct “mood-music” is playing.
Being humans we can only take in so much high quality info then we get overloaded with facts and look for simple markers to guide us. Play a patriotic song, wave the flag and you`ll win more votes than a carefully crafted, statistically coherent, argument will, if the audience has been overwhelmed with facts already.

And I am not putting myself above all of that stuff. I do like to think Im above the fray, but I know Im not really. I`m not knocking the intelligence of all voters, just saying these are very complex issues, and some with vested interests are very adept at influencing voters for their own ends.

We tend to distill complex arguments into some easily understood markers and then only look at them.
(Boss wants a new truck? He looks at MPG, and makes a choice. Maybe it costs a fortune in maintenance, and has no resale value, but there we are). And of cour…
HHmmmm. I wont put my PhD dissertation on "Proxy Markers Relating To Prime Issues And Voting Choices In UK Elections" here. Partly because it doesnt exist.

I think it’s a lot easier in complex issues for people to take the facts and statistics that support their point of view, instead of looking at the facts and figures and coming to a point of view.
Politicians and media play on that with headline figures, which is why I like to go to the raw data, but even then that’s often to disprove the figures to suit my argument, so to confirm my own bias on a subject.
To use your analogy of the buying a truck, I’m sure those who are biased to a certain make could get the figures work to justify, at least to themselves, that they are buying that make for cold commercial reasons when instead it’s because they actually like that truck or some other totally subjective reason.

[newmercman]

There was already a vote, the majority of people that voted wish to leave the EU, that’s it, done and dusted, end of story. Except it isn’t is it, it just proves that Mark Twain was right when he said “If voting made a difference, it would be illegal”

All this fiasco has done is show politician’s true colours, they don’t represent the people, they exist purely to feather their own nest and argue with the opposition just because they’re the opposition. They have forgotten they are only there as our representatives, they’re not paid to think, they’re paid to do and not one of them does any doing that benefits us.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[franglais]

muckles:
I think it’s a lot easier in complex issues for people to take the facts and statistics that support their point of view, instead of looking at the facts and figures and coming to a point of view.
Politicians and media play on that with headline figures, which is why I like to go to the raw data, but even then that’s often to disprove the figures to suit my argument, so to confirm my own bias on a subject.
To use your analogy of the buying a truck, I’m sure those who are biased to a certain make could get the figures work to justify, at least to themselves, that they are buying that make for cold commercial reasons when instead it’s because they actually like that truck or some other totally subjective reason.

True, that once we have an opinion we tend to look to justify that opinion, rather than actually challenge ourselves. And in this case with Brexit both sides are in danger of becoming ever more polarized. And just look at Johnson now on about “white flags” and “suicide vests”, jezz… beyond rational debate…frightening…
Classic experiment somewhere with data concerning capital punishment… the same set of data, concerning crime and the death penalty , is interpreted by either supporters or opponents of capital punishment to support their own case.
Ive got a definite opinion about it all (obviously MY opinion is totally rational)! But I really wish we werent where we are now.

[carryfast]

Franglais:
in this case with Brexit both sides are in danger of becoming ever more polarized.
Classic experiment somewhere with data concerning capital punishment… the same set of data, concerning crime and the death penalty , is interpreted by either supporters or opponents of capital punishment to support their own case.
Ive got a definite opinion about it all (obviously MY opinion is totally rational)! But I really wish we werent where we are now.

The Federalist v Nationalist/Secessionist argument is by definition one of ideologically polar opposites which is why loads of people have died and been prepared to die over it throughout history.

As for the death penalty if the crime and evidence is of a type which justifies the death penalty then there’s a ‘rational’ argument that it’s in everyone’s interests for a quick end to the criminal.On the grounds of closure for the victim/s and locking someone up in jail for decades ain’t exactly humane.

[muckles]

Franglais:

muckles:
I think it’s a lot easier in complex issues for people to take the facts and statistics that support their point of view, instead of looking at the facts and figures and coming to a point of view.
Politicians and media play on that with headline figures, which is why I like to go to the raw data, but even then that’s often to disprove the figures to suit my argument, so to confirm my own bias on a subject.
To use your analogy of the buying a truck, I’m sure those who are biased to a certain make could get the figures work to justify, at least to themselves, that they are buying that make for cold commercial reasons when instead it’s because they actually like that truck or some other totally subjective reason.

True, that once we have an opinion we tend to look to justify that opinion, rather than actually challenge ourselves. And in this case with Brexit both sides are in danger of becoming ever more polarized.

Not just the UK becoming more polarized, I’ve been looking at the Exit Polls of the Swedish Elections and yet again in a European Election, what some call a Far Right party other call Populist have made major gains, upsetting the status quo, which has been in operation for decades where established parties swap control in an almost gentlemanly way, with only minute differences between either’s policies or the background of their leaders the voters see very little change.

Franglais:
But I really wish we weren`t where we are now.

Neither do I, I think almost anything is better than where we are now, but I am also worried where we’re going and also where the rest of Europe is going, I saw a speech Tony Benn did in about 2009, as the Financial collapse took hold and austerity measures were being introduced across Europe and he predicted the rise of the populist parties. It wasn’t clairvoyance, but looking back at history, notably 1930’s Europe, which led him to that conclusion.

[chrisdalott]

newmercman:
There was already a vote, the majority of people that voted wish to leave the EU, that’s it, done and dusted, end of story. Except it isn’t is it, it just proves that Mark Twain was right when he said “If voting made a difference, it would be illegal”

All this fiasco has done is show politician’s true colours, they don’t represent the people, they exist purely to feather their own nest and argue with the opposition just because they’re the opposition. They have forgotten they are only there as our representatives, they’re not paid to think, they’re paid to do and not one of them does any doing that benefits us.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

If that’s the case, then why leave the EU only to put power into their hands?

Sent from my WAS-LX1A using Tapatalk

[newmercman]

That’s my point, at least with the EU poking their nose in they can’t ■■■■ you completely.

Britain’s problems stem from what our own politicians did to us. The current decline started with the bid to get into the EEC at all costs. Jobs and wages? Thank Thatcher for destroying the unions and privatising our national industries and infrastructure. Unrealistic housing costs, again thank the Thatcher dynasty for flogging off social housing. Immigration spiralling out of control, that’s on Blair.

The Brexit thing was a publicity stunt by Cameron, it was an epic fail, Johnson was his opposition and somehow he disappeared from the running for Cameron’s replacement and May got the gig. WTF? Almost as ridiculous and immoral as Blair handing over the reins to Brown.

And you think this BOCs should run the country? Madness, pure and simple.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[muckles]

chrisdalott:

newmercman:
There was already a vote, the majority of people that voted wish to leave the EU, that’s it, done and dusted, end of story. Except it isn’t is it, it just proves that Mark Twain was right when he said “If voting made a difference, it would be illegal”

All this fiasco has done is show politician’s true colours, they don’t represent the people, they exist purely to feather their own nest and argue with the opposition just because they’re the opposition. They have forgotten they are only there as our representatives, they’re not paid to think, they’re paid to do and not one of them does any doing that benefits us.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

If that’s the case, then why leave the EU only to put power into their hands?

Sent from my WAS-LX1A using Tapatalk

Do you mean the EU doesn’t have politicians?

I’ll give you a clue
Jean-Claude Juncker is a Luxembourgish politician From 1995 to 2013 he served as the 23rd Prime Minister of Luxembourg.
Donald Tusk is a Polish politician. He served as Prime Minister of Poland from 2007 to 2014.
Michel Barnier is a French politician, He has served in several French cabinet positions such as Minister of Foreign Affairs from 2004 to 2005.
Guy Verhofstadt is a Belgian politician, He was appointed Belgium Prime Minister on 12 July 1999.

All power hungry career politicians, trust me they’re no better or worse than the rabble we get to vote for.

[winseer]

Juddian:
How odd that these polls (maybe staffed by people seeking a certain result?) always seem to know who to ask.

We have a strong union where i work, Unite, and it’s virtually unanimous the union members are Brexiteers…and odd how the non union members (who have no trouble pocketing the pay rises we as the union negotiate every year) are mostly remainers, a cynical chap could come to the conclusion it’s the ethos of something for nothing

And the Union is not the political commissar or the suits at the top, the Union is the working and paying shop floor members at each branch.

IF Union Members are so stronly Brexiteers, - does that mean there is a potential enormous wall of people that could swing from Labour to UKIP at the next election?

[juddian]

Winseer:

Juddian:

IF Union Members are so stronly Brexiteers, - does that mean there is a potential enormous wall of people that could swing from Labour to UKIP at the next election?

A good few i know are UKIP members already, and almost none i know that would vote Labour if their lives depended on it, most like me are thoroughly disgusted with the traitorous politicians and their cohorts who are systematically destroying Britain on a daily basis, well represented in all parties.

My own opinion of UKIP, is that until they relax the perma-lifetime bans (instigated by Farage, who IMHO is not quite all that he appears to be) on former members of EDL and BNP, and get together with the other nationalist or patriotic groups to form a united front so all votes count for one, then the patriot vote will be split indefinately.

I know CF is disgusted that i won’t lend my vote to UKIP (i have done in the past), but UKIP needs to understand that we are talking about the very survival of our nation, with all its admitted faults and foibles, a case of my enemy’s enemy is my enemy, if UKIP only want ex EDL/BNP or even the football lads votes, then they’d better bloody stop mincing about like closet tories playing to the hostile media hoping for 2 lines in some treacherous msm rag saying something nice about them because they hope to give the impression that an EDL patriot is some sort of low life when a UKIP patriot is a veritable saint, when the truth is they are almost all of them wanting the same thing and actually reading from the same hymnsheet.

We don’t know yet what will happen next year re the Brexit farce, its entirely possible that Boris will be PM by Christmas and Jacob Rees Mogg in charge of Brexit negotiations and they could yet pull the rabbit out of the hat.
Though i suspect reality will be the tory socialist wet ■■■■ party will once again betray the nation, just as Heath did back in 1973.

So UKIP if treachery proves to be the case next year as tories revert to type, and you want the backing and the support and the votes of people who are genuine patriots, and remember 1 million people voted BNP in the european elections which put Griffin into the EU parliament which is where Farage comes in , then it is time for an amnesty on ex EDL/BNP members and allow them in, not just a special case for Tommy Robinson because you think he brings votes from people you actually despise with him…if that’s all you care about votes, then you are no better than the one party state with three faces which have led this country into the toilet over the last 30 years.

The ball UKIP is in your court, time maybe to do what you keep telling May and assorted failures of politicians to do…put your country first ■■■■ you.

[carryfast]

Juddian:

Winseer:

Juddian:

IF Union Members are so stronly Brexiteers, - does that mean there is a potential enormous wall of people that could swing from Labour to UKIP at the next election?

A good few i know are UKIP members already, and almost none i know that would vote Labour if their lives depended on it, most like me are thoroughly disgusted with the traitorous politicians and their cohorts who are systematically destroying Britain on a daily basis, well represented in all parties.

My own opinion of UKIP, is that until they relax the perma-lifetime bans (instigated by Farage, who IMHO is not quite all that he appears to be) on former members of EDL and BNP, and get together with the other nationalist or patriotic groups to form a united front so all votes count for one, then the patriot vote will be split indefinately.

I know CF is disgusted that i won’t lend my vote to UKIP (i have done in the past), but UKIP needs to understand that we are talking about the very survival of our nation, with all its admitted faults and foibles, a case of my enemy’s enemy is my enemy, if UKIP only want ex EDL/BNP or even the football lads votes, then they’d better bloody stop mincing about like closet tories playing to the hostile media hoping for 2 lines in some treacherous msm rag saying something nice about them because they hope to give the impression that an EDL patriot is some sort of low life when a UKIP patriot is a veritable saint, when the truth is they are almost all of them wanting the same thing and actually reading from the same hymnsheet.

We don’t know yet what will happen next year re the Brexit farce, its entirely possible that Boris will be PM by Christmas and Jacob Rees Mogg in charge of Brexit negotiations and they could yet pull the rabbit out of the hat.
Though i suspect reality will be the tory socialist wet ■■■■ party will once again betray the nation, just as Heath did back in 1973.

So UKIP if treachery proves to be the case next year as tories revert to type, and you want the backing and the support and the votes of people who are genuine patriots, and remember 1 million people voted BNP in the european elections which put Griffin into the EU parliament which is where Farage comes in , then it is time for an amnesty on ex EDL/BNP members and allow them in, not just a special case for Tommy Robinson because you think he brings votes from people you actually despise with him…if that’s all you care about votes, then you are no better than the one party state with three faces which have led this country into the toilet over the last 30 years.

The ball UKIP is in your court, time maybe to do what you keep telling May and assorted failures of politicians to do…put your country first ■■■■ you.

Surely it’s just as valid to say to the EDL/BNP vote why not just vote UKIP on the basis of a tactical vote which puts the country first.While realising that combining UKIP and BNP membership would lose more votes ( for the country not UKIP ) than it gains.As for Farage for the umpteenth bleedin time Batten is the relevant figure for us all to get behind not Farage.In which case what has Batten said that doesn’t meet the aims of all of all of us ‘for the country’ ?.

On that note why is it so important for BNP/EDL to be UKIP members.In the realisation that Batten provides the best chance for the country and that combining UKIP and BNP membership would damage that chance by alienating too many of the UKIP membership and vote base.

[chrisdalott]

The very survival of our nation? Drama queen alert

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[franglais]

Winseer: “If Union members are such strong brexiteers…”

Suggest you go back and read the first post and the link, mate.
A poll from a reputable polling co. has shown that many union members seem to be ANTI-Brexit.

If your personal experiences don’t tie in with that, it’s not such a shock. We all tend to talk and socialise with people of similar outlooks.

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

[carryfast]

chrisdalott:
The very survival of our nation? Drama queen alert

The difference between it being a subjugated non sovereign state of a Federal Europe ruled by the EU Federal government.As opposed to an independent,self governing,sovereign Nation state,of which its government is democratically conntrolled by and accountable to us and only us,fits the definition of ‘very survival’.

Although sadly and unbelievably it seems obvious that your view,as opposed to that normally accepted definition of ‘Nation’ in this case,is shared by the so called ‘Head of State’ and her forces.Which has been the problem since 1973 if not 1066 and no end of referenda saying otherwise will change that.Although a referendum result will obviously be happily accepted as pointless self confirmation if it goes in favour of the Federalists.In this case the plan as usual being keep voting until they get the answer they want.

[carryfast]

newmercman:
That’s my point, at least with the EU poking their nose in they can’t [zb] you completely.

Britain’s problems stem from what our own politicians did to us. The current decline started with the bid to get into the EEC at all costs. Jobs and wages? Thank Thatcher for destroying the unions and privatising our national industries and infrastructure. Unrealistic housing costs, again thank the Thatcher dynasty for flogging off social housing. Immigration spiralling out of control, that’s on Blair.

The Brexit thing was a publicity stunt by Cameron, it was an epic fail, Johnson was his opposition and somehow he disappeared from the running for Cameron’s replacement and May got the gig. WTF? Almost as ridiculous and immoral as Blair handing over the reins to Brown.

And you think this BOCs should run the country? Madness, pure and simple

The difference is that we have the ( relative ) ability to vote our own BOC’s out of office whereas we don’t in the case of the EU BOC’s being a combination of unelected politburo dictators and a foreign majority vote.So first we get Brexit then we can get on with trying to install the right people in government.Just as we should have done in 1975 in the form of people like Benn,Shore and Powell instead of Callaghan and Thatcher.The common denominator seeming to be that the BOC’s are usually all EU Federalists.

On that note how does adding the EU’s BOC’s to our own mean that they can’t zb us even more and as has been proven since 1973.

[juddian]

Carryfast:

Juddian:

Winseer:

Juddian:

IF Union Members are so stronly Brexiteers, - does that mean there is a potential enormous wall of people that could swing from Labour to UKIP at the next election?

A good few i know are UKIP members already, and almost none i know that would vote Labour if their lives depended on it, most like me are thoroughly disgusted with the traitorous politicians and their cohorts who are systematically destroying Britain on a daily basis, well represented in all parties.

My own opinion of UKIP, is that until they relax the perma-lifetime bans (instigated by Farage, who IMHO is not quite all that he appears to be) on former members of EDL and BNP, and get together with the other nationalist or patriotic groups to form a united front so all votes count for one, then the patriot vote will be split indefinately.

I know CF is disgusted that i won’t lend my vote to UKIP (i have done in the past), but UKIP needs to understand that we are talking about the very survival of our nation, with all its admitted faults and foibles, a case of my enemy’s enemy is my enemy, if UKIP only want ex EDL/BNP or even the football lads votes, then they’d better bloody stop mincing about like closet tories playing to the hostile media hoping for 2 lines in some treacherous msm rag saying something nice about them because they hope to give the impression that an EDL patriot is some sort of low life when a UKIP patriot is a veritable saint, when the truth is they are almost all of them wanting the same thing and actually reading from the same hymnsheet.

We don’t know yet what will happen next year re the Brexit farce, its entirely possible that Boris will be PM by Christmas and Jacob Rees Mogg in charge of Brexit negotiations and they could yet pull the rabbit out of the hat.
Though i suspect reality will be the tory socialist wet ■■■■ party will once again betray the nation, just as Heath did back in 1973.

So UKIP if treachery proves to be the case next year as tories revert to type, and you want the backing and the support and the votes of people who are genuine patriots, and remember 1 million people voted BNP in the european elections which put Griffin into the EU parliament which is where Farage comes in , then it is time for an amnesty on ex EDL/BNP members and allow them in, not just a special case for Tommy Robinson because you think he brings votes from people you actually despise with him…if that’s all you care about votes, then you are no better than the one party state with three faces which have led this country into the toilet over the last 30 years.

The ball UKIP is in your court, time maybe to do what you keep telling May and assorted failures of politicians to do…put your country first ■■■■ you.

Surely it’s just as valid to say to the EDL/BNP vote why not just vote UKIP on the basis of a tactical vote which puts the country first.While realising that combining UKIP and BNP membership would lose more votes ( for the country not UKIP ) than it gains.As for Farage for the umpteenth bleedin time Batten is the relevant figure for us all to get behind not Farage.In which case what has Batten said that doesn’t meet the aims of all of all of us ‘for the country’ ?.

On that note why is it so important for BNP/EDL to be UKIP members.In the realisation that Batten provides the best chance for the country and that combining UKIP and BNP membership would damage that chance by alienating too many of the UKIP membership and vote base.

Because CF me old mate.
It’s not far removed from the reason genuine working class people have lost all faith.
Be honest now, for the establishment the working class are only of interest at two events, 1 being when they want your vote, 2 being when they need cannon fodder to fight their wars for them, once the working class have done as bidden they go back to being despised and unwanted.

Now think of how UKIP view former BNP/EDL members.
Note the similarity, in truth we actually despise you and we wouldn’t dream of associating with you, but we’ll use your vote and then go back to despising you.

No CF, it isn’t good enough.
Patriots have much in common, and its high time these petty differences were put to one side, and we all joined forces to fight the common enemy from a united front.
Empty vessels make the loudest noise, ask yourself who in UKIP is dead set against alliances and what exactly do they have to gain.

The enemy is out there, it is not within the ranks of patriots.

[carryfast]

Franglais:
Winseer: “If Union members are such strong brexiteers…”

Suggest you go back and read the first post and the link, mate.
A poll from a reputable polling co. has shown that many union members seem to be ANTI-Brexit.

If your personal experiences don’t tie in with that, it’s not such a shock. We all tend to talk and socialise with people of similar outlooks.

What a surprise.Many Union members are blind naive Socialists who by definition are ideologically opposed to the idea of the Nation State in favour of Soviet Union style Socialism.But who were obviously out voted by those of us to who allegiance to Nation trumps everything and in the knowledge that even the working class struggle can be better served by people like Benn and now Batten and Hoey.Rather than people like

…Thatcher,Clark,Major,Blair,Cameron,Starmer,Hammond and May and her assorted false flag so called ‘Brexiteers’ like BoJo.

[carryfast]

Juddian:

Carryfast:
Surely it’s just as valid to say to the EDL/BNP vote why not just vote UKIP on the basis of a tactical vote which puts the country first.While realising that combining UKIP and BNP membership would lose more votes ( for the country not UKIP ) than it gains.As for Farage for the umpteenth bleedin time Batten is the relevant figure for us all to get behind not Farage.In which case what has Batten said that doesn’t meet the aims of all of all of us ‘for the country’ ?.

On that note why is it so important for BNP/EDL to be UKIP members.In the realisation that Batten provides the best chance for the country and that combining UKIP and BNP membership would damage that chance by alienating too many of the UKIP membership and vote base.

Because CF me old mate.
It’s not far removed from the reason genuine working class people have lost all faith.
Be honest now, for the establishment the working class are only of interest at two events, 1 being when they want your vote, 2 being when they need cannon fodder to fight their wars for them, once the working class have done as bidden they go back to being despised and unwanted.

Now think of how UKIP view former BNP/EDL members.
Note the similarity, in truth we actually despise you and we wouldn’t dream of associating with you, but we’ll use your vote and then go back to despising you.

No CF, it isn’t good enough.
Patriots have much in common, and its high time these petty differences were put to one side, and we all joined forces to fight the common enemy from a united front.
Empty vessels make the loudest noise, ask yourself who in UKIP is dead set against alliances and what exactly do they have to gain.

The enemy is out there, it is not within the ranks of patriots.

Surely it’s self explanatory in that Batten has said and done nothing regarding policy which should alienate the BNP vote and plenty which all patriots would support ?.

While the BNP vote surely must realise that trying to merge the two seperate memberships will just wreck the whole effort ( for country ) in the knowledge that the BNP is considered toxic by too many people.

Having said that if Batten has done anything wrong it’s in the ( non ) realisation that there are some massive questions that need answering regarding how the country has got to this point,at Head of State and forces level ?.IE think the unthinkable that the Royal Perogative has gone rogue,in handing the country over to a foreign power,together with its government.

While to be fair I haven’t heard any mutterings from the BNP in that regard either.