Pay help needed

Henrys cat:
I wish someone would put a link upto the piece of legislation that outlaws % or mileage pay, because I can’t find one at all, think it could be another one of those myths. We operate in 2 traffic areas and have no problems at all.

Not a link but this is from the FTA Book of Road Transport Law(2002)

Bonus Payments

EU rules prohibit bonuses or wage supplements being paid to drivers in relation to distance travelled and/or the amount of goods carried if such payments would endanger road safety.
Bona fide bonus schemes have never fallen foul of this regulation. The burden of proof would be on the prosecution to show that a scheme would endanger road safety.

Proves my point, as long as everything is being run legal and by the book there’s no problem.

The telling line is

if such payments would endanger road safety.

Henrys cat:
I wish someone would put a link upto the piece of legislation that outlaws % or mileage pay, because I can’t find one at all, think it could be another one of those myths.

The missing legislation is the replacement for the “old” driver’s hours rules, which were called EEC 3820/85.

The whole of EEC 3820/85 was repealed by Regulation (EC) No 561/2006. The quote for the law on this is: Regulation (EC) No 561/2006 Article 10(1)

LIABILITY OF TRANSPORT UNDERTAKINGS
Article 10

  1. A transport undertaking shall not give drivers it employs or who are put at its disposal any payment, even in the form of a bonus or wage supplement, related to distances travelled and/or the amount of goods carried if that payment is of such a kind as to endanger road safety and/or encourages infringement of this Regulation.

Article 29 and the very last words of this Regulation may also be of interest:

Article 29. This Regulation shall enter into force on 11 April 2007, with the exception of Articles 10(5), 26(3) and (4) and 27, which shall enter into force on 1 May 2006.

This Regulation shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States.

:bulb: We can make of it what we will, and so will the lawyers, but remember that the only place ultimately qualified to interpret law is a court :exclamation: (Yes, before anybody else thinks of it; a Traffic Commisioner may well have ruled on such a matter. However, there is an appeal process, so that’s the reason for the word “ultimately.”

Once again it’s down to the

if that payment is of such a kind as to endanger road safety and/or encourages infringement of this Regulation.

line again. If there are no infringments and no danger to public safety it is still legal.

Our gaffer runs us totally legally, our main contract ships us by the book and allows leway for problems that may arise. So no problems

Henrys cat:
Once again it’s down to the

if that payment is of such a kind as to endanger road safety and/or encourages infringement of this Regulation.

line again. If there are no infringments and no danger to public safety it is still legal.

Our gaffer runs us totally legally, our main contract ships us by the book and allows leway for problems that may arise. So no problems

Having proved that it’s not a “myth” might not be enough, it seems. IF is a very big word, so big in fact that it is a whole linguistic mood all on its own. So, you’re right to use it in this case. Just for historical accuracy, the “old” EEC 3820/85 had a similar phrase with respect to bonus systems, so the concept has been around since at least 1985.

Therein lies the problem. Since 1985 there have been many judgements handed down by the courts, for example the famous “Skills” case in which it was decided that time spent travelling to collect a vehicle was to be recorded as “duty time.” That was so tricky at the time that a Magistrates’ Court sent it to Europe for clarification. EEC 3820/85 just wasn’t clear on that exact point. That and many other cases have now been subsumed into the present 561/2006.

The present 561/2006 has clearly been written to include such case law, or precedent if you like. Due to the fact that 561/2006 is so new, there isn’t much case law on it. Your “gaffer” can come to an opinion as he sees fit, as can even a barrister. Eventually, where no clear statute exists, there will come a time when a concept is tested in court. Two barristers will both be convinced that they have a winning case, but I think you’d agree that one of them will go home a bit disappointed. All of us, you, me, your “gaffer,” even barristers, are acting wisely when we remember our place in the overall scheme of things.

In short: it’s only an opinion, until a court rules upon a question brought before it.

Lucy:
dieseldave - My comments on the legality of pay schemes were separate from those to Steve, and are a favourite soapbox of mine as a majority mileage-paid employed driver. :open_mouth:

In practice, the interpretation of this particular piece of law varies from Traffic Area to Traffic Area.

All soapboxes gladly welcomed! And it’s true that the various TCs interpret differently. Most TCs have a legal background in transport law- they even have a quasi-judicial role. My point was that there’s an appeal procedure. When faced with a particular question, the TC will rule- that’s the way of it. However, one of the parties has a limited right of appeal, so the question might go via that route for a court ruling.

Lucy:
I now work for a firm an hour or so up the road and over the border between Traffic Areas and we are paid 28ppm basic and 30ppm after 1750 miles, plus various bonuses for reloads, multidrop jobs etc. and percentage of what the lorry earns. There’s also a local “job rate”. On paper we are contracted to 40 hours for approximately £250 on top, but that is purely on paper. In practice the vast majority of our very healthy (for Teesside) wages come from the mileage. The local Traffic Commissioner is well aware of this as the firm have been paying that way for 25-plus years, and keep a very close eye on us from a legal point of view, but otherwise all is deemed to be fine. (None of us want hourly pay, btw, we like working shorter hours for more cash).

Everything is fine as long as 561/2006 isn’t infringed. My point was that, if there were some big accident with serious injuries, and it got looked into in depth, then the idea of paying an employed driver a % of earnings might be questionable.

Lucy:
dave - It’s precisely because the loads won’t always be there that I’m suggesting the scheme that I am. The day rate/salary would have to be fair for the average hours on it’s own, the load bonus would be precisely that, a bonus, to give the driver an incentive to do the extra bit when it’s busy. :wink:

I actually agree with you on this point, but I’d give the “bonus” a different name. I’m not encouraging anybody to break the law, but this idea can be made to fit the original question.

Lucy:
I don’t know…I guess because I’ve driven for the majority of my career on some kind of tip/mileage/percentage based scheme, it’s what I’m used to therefore I prefer it. I never liked hourly rate because of the length of the wretched hours needed to make the best money. To put it simply, I prefer to be paid for what I do rather than what I don’t do, if that makes sense.

Yes, Lucy it makes perfect sense. I was on trip money without bonuses when I started doing Europe in the early 80’s. That was so unjust, because we had to do our own repairs and change wheels on our own. Our boss even gave us spare inner tubes :open_mouth: We didn’t get a penny more whether the trip took a week or a fortnight. Each trip had its own “rate.” In the late 90’s, I was on tanker work. Paid by the load with no allowance for tipping and loading. Tip/load was 1.25 hrs each. Do three loads a day, who was the idiot? (Rhetorical question!!) Thank God that those days are over.

It’s only fair that a driver is properly paid, without relying on loads of overtime to make a living wage. I do suggest that firms carefully consider the label that they put on the “bonus” scheme, because of the pitfalls. I strongly support your soapbox, mine is maybe a little higher and has the latest in megaphones :wink: I only suggest, with good reason, that everybody use caution.

Henrys cat:
Bit of advice needed.

We’re looking at putting another truck in the depot I work out of in September. For this one we’re after a local driver that can pick up the slack, this means that if it goes quiet they could be parked up by dinner time.

Now because of this our current scheme of a % payment wouldn’t work, and neither would an hourly rate, mainly because when it does get busy we need them to do as much work as possible to compensate for the slack times.

Our current thought is a day rate then a % of earning to give a bit of incentive to push for work. What would you think a good day rate was? Bearing in mind that at worst I do an average 12hrs day and I do nights out, would think the average would be about 11hrs.

No brainer. Guaranteed 40hrs a week basic plus overtime. Just advertise it at an hourly rate that’s par for the area.

At the interview, explain the situation to the interviewees and let them decide.

Try to work out how many hours a week the driver is likely to work, say 40, then pay the driver a decent weekly salary for the area you are based in, If one week he only does 36 it is compensated when the next week he does 44, this way the driver knows exactly how much he is going to earn every week and you know what your wage bill is going to be too, I,m paid like this based on 48 hours work a week and it works fine, the company deducts 45mins a day break.

simple, Advertised for a self employed driver… explaining the daily rate is going to be £8,9 etc or get an agency driver in… up to ur guv to arrange the payments with them because if the truck is sat for 3 days he aint paying a wage / agency may be a good idea!

Many companies now think that the higher rates for agency drivers are worth it because you only have to have them when you need them. Once you factor in hol pay, employers NI etc, the agency rates aren’t that expensive for that flexibility.