Colonel John, so because you did not like Brs Overland, and you are mates with Roger Haywood, who I never heard of, I am getting a tongue lashing, John Williams, Geoff Ruggins, I have heard of them, but not moved in their circles, I did meet a John Williams, whether it was the one, I do not know, this one was dark curly hair thick set, 30/40, the other rings a bell, was he ex- SAS who drove for Astran. And the reason you know little about me, is I done my best to keep away from drivers who did jobs for trip money, for a lot of them, if they ran out of money, or was running short, had a habit of acquiring it or things from other truckers, even ■■■■ who worked for Bartons, was always on the cadge, but he was a nice type of chap. We had ten loads from Rolls royce in London Of electrial magnet plating to deliver to a factory this side of the bridge in Istanbul, I took three of them, Bill thomas, Terry Taylor took one each, and sub- contractors took the other five, the reason I done three of them, was because mine was the only one that got there, in the condition that it was, when it was loaded, the others was just scrap metal. I have been a lorry driver ever since I left the REME, and always delivered my load. So if someone makes a comment which is untrue, I will soon tell them, Harry knows that, but I bear no malice, but John, I just do not know about you, what do you say, in life I would rather be a friend than foe, but it will not give me sleepless nights. Sandman Norman
Hello,just a quickie between the “debate”,Colonel are these your wagons?
Cheers Bubbs. 
Norman, you must have mis-read my post as nowhere did I say that I did not like BRS. The opposite in fact. BRS was a good learning experience for me as I was a tramper and spent the whole week away from home.
I too served in the REME from `1955-0 1958, first in 7th Inf Workshops and then after getting my wings became a part of the 16th Independent Para Brigade. That is even further in the past and was a part of my life that came and went.
Roger Haywood is a person whom I have met on a few occasions whilst doing the N Middle East and Greece. Like yourself I have met many people, some I had a great relationship with, others I had nothing in common with. I have never been a drinker so I have not become a legend as I spent everyday working at doing the job.
I believe I mentioned to you that I met the BRS convoy on its first trip to the Middle East at a Rasthaus in Rottenman, Austria. I was on my way home from Tehran and they had the editor of the Cpmmercial Motor riding with them.
I have no wish to argue about a period in my life that I enjoyed very much, with you, Norman or anyone else for that matter. I realise we do not meet everyone who has ever done the job, but I was really surprised that you had never heard of Roger, as he is well known for doing the Middle East. I am not well known because I worked at the job, had no time for stopping at the usual haunts and getting drunk.
If you bring something up that I feel I can contribute to then I will join in. I bear you no ill will.
Bubbleman, you have me at a disadvantage as it is obvious you know me but I don’t know who you are, but would really like to know.
The 110 Scania was my truck when I first started as an owner driver. The Transcons came along much later as I got more work.
Jay Taylor Webb was one of my sub conntractors and funnily enough he just recently posted on my guestbook on my website, but never left an email address, so I could not contact him.
You have more photos than me of my own trucks.
John, thats how I like, I met the famous “stan” and ■■■■ snow, If I rack this old brain, do not hold me to it, he said he was a ex- seaman, that was on a trip to saudi. The reason for BRS OVERLAND folding was not due to not making money. How do I know, well. the lads were upset, when they found out, and after they was tanked up in the Rifle ■■■■, they were going to the company house to see the chairman of the board in their units, and they wanted to know if i was with them, and I said no, my best mate Bill thomas said why not, I said one, you cannot go in the units, because you have no permission, and you can get sacked without payment. Then I said we will book a appointment, and go down in our cars, we did and sat in the boardroom, and he told us it was commercial sense, that we was closing the firm, due to the arabs getting the westerners sorting out their docks, and ships was being unloaded quicker, the volume of middle east , would be drying up soon, it may last a year or two longer, and Iran there would be trouble, and not viable, our fleet was a load of crap, and should not have been those vehicles in the first place, and the person who chosen them, had long gone. If they had a good fleet, we would have continued for at least 2 more years, but to buy Volvo’s or Scania’s, they would not get their money back in the short time of working time. And that is it, because I was there, any other tales or rumours are popycot. The only reason, a lot of firms done the middle east work, was the arabs were spending their oil money, and british firms had contract, and all their material was lying in the bows of a ship for months at a time, the contractors were on penalty clauses, so who did they turn to, the good old british lory driver, I hope this meets with your approvial John, and you confirm the latter part of my comments outside of the boardroom are true. Sandman Norman
Hi boys
John… I was and still am a bit like you in that I kept myself to myself kept of the booze and just got on with the job.As I’ve said in the past I only did three trips to the ME not becouse I had had a bad trip but becouse we weren’t making any money at it. So when europe work came up for more money we jumped at it.In fact the next trip was set up for us to Saudi but we got offered a trip to Switzerland for £100 less. What would you have done? Like you say some drivers you would rarely meet especaly if you werent part of the boozing set.On the three trips we never came accross another Chapman and ball truck, I did europe for ten years and for the first 6 months of that did Ciba Geigy from Manchester to Basel,only after that 6 month did we meet a lad from Blackpool who was doing the same route, same places.Years later we brought a trailer and permits off him, sorry cannot just remember his name.We then took steel out of Shotton steel works all over europe and 9 or 10 years later you would meet drivers that were doing the same job who you had not meet before.It makes me sound like a loner but I don’t think I was, just liked to get on with job.I remember seeing your trucks about now that Bubbleman has posted some photos but sorry your name did not ring any bells with me.Mayby you have seen me about, I have posted some photos of our C+B days in their colours and the very few we have in our own colours. Bubbleman I don’t surpose you have any? Well that was a small part of my trucking career So it’s nice to hear from you, please share some of your experiences with us.
Regards Keith Millington.
hiya,
John, any chance of taking a look-see at you website? is it lorry related?.
thanks harry long retired.
Colonel:
Colonel, some questions for you.
Why are you attacking Norman when it’s obvious you don’t even know him?I know who he worked for and I know their record doing the Middle East.
How can you go to any destination for the first time and say you know it all?
I happen to know someone who only worked as the workshop manager for a turkish company doing the Middle East and he would be able to hold his own in any conversation with drivers about the Middle East, yet he never set foot anywhewre near it.
If on many occasions you have been reading garbage ( your words, not mine) why do you keep reading?
One can only read what is placed before them,
Finally what’s a thio forum?
THat is a typo and I am only sorry that you were unable to recognise it as such, pathetic springs to mind, although I will forgive you for the missing comma after the word “Finally”.
HI John,
In reply to your response.
First. You said you know who Norman worked for. Don’t you think this is bit like judging a book by its cover?
Second. You said, on a trip to ME. There was no mention of any workshop manager. I’ve never been to America, but I can hold my own in a conversation about the place.
Third. I read what I want to read, apart from some of these so called Daily Newspapers.
Last. Obviously it was a typo and I’m sorry that you you were unable to recognise my comment as the light hearted comment it was meant to be, pathetic does spring to mind.However I will also forgive you for your spelling errors and your incorrect use of upper and lower case letters 
Ray
Norman Ingram:
The reason for BRS OVERLAND folding was not due to not making money. How do I know, well. the lads were upset, when they found out, and after they was tanked up in the Rifle ■■■■, they were going to the company house to see the chairman of the board in their units, and they wanted to know if i was with them, and I said no, my best mate Bill thomas said why not, I said one, you cannot go in the units, because you have no permission, and you can get sacked without payment. Then I said we will book a appointment, and go down in our cars, we did and sat in the boardroom, and he told us it was commercial sense, that we was closing the firm, due to the arabs getting the westerners sorting out their docks, and ships was being unloaded quicker, the volume of middle east , would be drying up soon, it may last a year or two longer, and Iran there would be trouble, and not viable, our fleet was a load of crap, and should not have been those vehicles in the first place, and the person who chosen them, had long gone. If they had a good fleet, we would have continued for at least 2 more years, but to buy Volvo’s or Scania’s, they would not get their money back in the short time of working time. And that is it, because I was there, any other tales or rumours are popycot. The only reason, a lot of firms done the middle east work, was the arabs were spending their oil money, and british firms had contract, and all their material was lying in the bows of a ship for months at a time, the contractors were on penalty clauses, so who did they turn to, the good old british lory driver, I hope this meets with your approvial John, and you confirm the latter part of my comments outside of the boardroom are true. Sandman Norman
Hiya Norman,
About twenty something years ago I was talking to a driver on Keele services one night. Said he was an Ex BRS overland driver and he told me more or less the same as what you have just said. Although he didn’t put it quite as nice as what you did. Can’t remember who he was working for then, but he was about 6’ 6 or something like that and he was nearly as wide.
Ray
flishflunk, you appear to be someone who likes to be an irritant. It is because I know the record of BRS and their overland adventures to the Middle East that I feel I can comment on them. Having spent three weeks in Turkey recovering BRS loads that were just dumped by the driver, only confirms the standard of driver that was doing that run. If a truck was abandoned, one could be sure it was British, 14 trucks from the Bazargan to Tehran all from one company just dumped, because of drivers losing their bottle.
If you had used a smiley when you were attempting to pick me up on my typing abilities then nothing would have been said.
If you have anything to contribute to the discussion on the Middle East, then perhaps we could hear your version on this period.
Harry,
My website is not lorry orientated but does contain a fair bit about trucks. The link is available under my name on any post, but seeing as you have missed it, then be my guest and here is a link johnpettitt.com
I never got around to writing about my Middle East adventures but if you have any questions that you would like an anwer to then feel free to ask.
Norman,
I myself, never heard that it was a shortage of offloading facilities that started the Middle east run. I started on Iran and spent six months working internally, there running from two Iranian ports back to Tehran, Korramshah(Steel) and Bander Abbas(Grain). This tells me that the ports were working fine but there was a shortage of trucks and as we all know the Shah was buying these at an incredible rate.
As to Saudi and beyond, in my days all goods went to Doha and were taken on by special sand trucks. Of course once the road was built to the Emirates in 1978 things moved further on.
My main customer to Baghdad, Mardon Flexible Packaging, Midsomer Norton approcahed me because they were shipping their goods to Iraq without a problem apart from the fact that the aluminium foil, which was used to wrap chewing gum, just would not seal after 21 days in a container. I solved this problem for them by loading on a Sunday and delivering the following Monday in Baghdad. It was this level of service that enabled me to keep this contract, even from the well know forwarders of the day, Kuehne & Nagel, Davis Turner, Schenkers etc, etc. even though they were always attempting to undercut me. Doug Howarth (Shipping Manager) would often ring me and say that Davis Turner had cut £300 off the rate and my response was always the same. “If it is down to money, Doug, then give it to them, but if you want your goods in Baghdad next Monday then you will have to put them on my trucks”.
Keith, when one is in business then it is prudent to work for the best possible rates. Many on the Middle East were ripped off by the forwarders and struggled. You probably made a wise decision moving into Europe.
I had three fridges doing Italy and in the seventies I used to get £2400 out with hanging fresh lamb and £1800 back with fruit for Italfruita(Anna Geest). Pretty good weeks work for those three trucks.
However all my other work was to the Middle East.
hiya,
thanks John will look at your site later when i’ve finished adding my rubbish on here,there’s not a lot of use me asking questions about M/E work never having done that sort of work, my driving experience abroad was as an eighteen to twenty year old in the far east and in civilian life the best i could manage was an Irish trip or two which is totally irrelevant, although i was quite a good mechanic so i guess i would have got there, i don’t suppose there’s much you can do with modern trucks with a toolkit if you have’nt got the computer knowledge to go with it.
thanks harry long retired.
Having read the various posts by this Clown, who claims to have, or his Drivers have done, UK Baghdad in eight days, I can only assume that in those day’s, no borders existed, to have done that trip in that time, The Drivers would have to average 469 miles per day, without no Border delay’s.
Dave Mackie.
You must be one of those drivers who just could not do a days work, had no idea how to work a border, yet spent all day in the Londra getting drunkl on th efes.
Baghdads for me were 18 days round trip and that included two days rest in the British Club. My drivers also managed to do this same timing, so I am glad that you never worked for me as you don’t appear to have been up for the job.
If you look at the number plate on my Truck OMR 909M you can possibly work it out that as I bought this truck brand new in 1974 specifically for this work this was the time that I was doing this work.
John. I did not mean Iran, I was told by the customers, and the agent, that they had goods they ordered and sent months ago was lying in ships, waiting to get into docks at Jedda, to get unloaded, and they had duplicated the orders and got them sent overland, due to the pressure of the clauses they had in their contracts, and this was due to the increase in transport firms going there, this came from them, not other drivers, yes drivers was going before, but not in such volumes . On your knowledge of Iran, I will not argue, on what you were told about BRS, and their attemps, because I was not connected, but when they called for experient drivers, I put my name down, we had a meeting and types of vehicles,was discused and three was chosen Volvo’s, Scania’s, DAF’s. The next I knew, was I was one of twelve, who had been picked, but the Leyland Marathon was what we were getting, I smelt a rat, someone was getting a back hander, we were sent on a course up at Leylands near Preston for a week, on how to repair and maintain these vehicles. I knew the names of every man, only three done one trip. Only trouble of note, was Colin Wright and Keith Shirley on their first trip to Iran in the winter, was they got stuck on Tahir, and Keith got robbed and beat up badly, I was not told if they completed the trip, but I am in contact with Kelth, the latter is deseased, so I can find out, for me the truth is the main thing. So I state Brs Overland drivers got the job done, what Brs done if they sent drivers, I cannot say, or subs who got the jobs. For once we signed on, we was not on Brs books, and we wanted Brs Overland to be a success, and continue, they was a grand bunch of lads, and when we closed down we was out of work. So whatever Taci the turk said, it was not us, it might have been subbed out by our management, or the normal Brs, but I know it was not us. Sandman Norman
Dave, I must agree with john the colonel, and we have not agreed so far, we would do it in 3 weeks and saudi in 4weeks, my first trip we done it in 5weeks,but was waiting to clear customers for a week, The unpredictable one was Iran, I have seen 26kms of queuing lorries. Sandman Norman
Colonel:
Norman,.
I solved this problem for them by loading on a Sunday and delivering the following Monday in Baghdad.
Not having the superior knowledge as some ex military personnel persons here ,I did know that Baghdad could be done that quickly,it used to take me 2 days to Barcelona
Hi All
Blimey didnt I start the Kettle boiling but it makes good reading.Norman sorry that we never met ,but your story of helping a Turk in Yugo is a bit far fetched are you sure you wernt on the Effes in the londra and woke up out of a dream,Im not calling you a lier but take a close look at what you write in future as you wont do yourself justice ,in future I will sign by my real name if it helps.
Roger(Rita) Haywood